HOME PAGE
| Name: | sherpal singh korotana - January 11, 2002 |
| E-mail: | sherpal_singh@hotmail.com |
| Location: | klang, malaysia |
| Comments: | heya again, well being in malaysia has been a blessing for us.....despite being third/fourth generation of punjabis, we still remember our homeland punjab, and even know the villages our fore fathers left....like i can trace my hometown to Fareedkot(after Baba Fareed in 'east' punjab) as well as Hazara close by to Islamabad(in 'west' punjab)... our forefathers left even before the partition, and this has always made them adhere strongly to their punjabi brotherhood, and not to the current political scenes and divisions in punjab...now this, i am proud about....being such a tiny minority in malaysia, and considered a totally different ethnic then the indian population, it has given us a new lease of identity...to legally call ourselves as Punjabis, now our people fought for our seperate identity, to maintain our integrity... anyways, regarding the Quran that Bushra has brought upon, i must state that like all holy scriptures, it has always promoted equality, and the liberation and freedom that women had gained during the jahiliyah state of the arab society is equivalent to today's modern women being allowed to rule a whole batallion or army...we must remember, at the period of pre-Islamic birth, women werent allowed to do anything, neither were they allowed to speak out, and even sold freely like cattle.....wife and daughters had no meaning...women werent allowed to own anything, cause they themselves were property...but this had dramatically changed during the period of Quran, where women were entitled to inherit property(a very very big leap in women's fight of liberty)..even more, young girls were no longer forced into marriages, because the Prophet had set the age to puberty which is only common sense, because at the ancient times, people were silly enough to not be able to distinguish a young girl from a lady... we must also remember, it may be stated in the Islamic laws that a daughter would inherit less from her father then her brothers, but it is also stated that the amount she inherits is hers and hers only, unlike her brothers, she doesnt have to share it with her family...so u see, for people 1400 years ago, that meant a true liberation to women's freedom, giving them the right to inherit, to own, to be dynamic once again in society, and not used in gambling exchanges... as to the reason why women were asked to cover their aurat, its simply because at that time lawlessness was roaming wild in the arab countries, and they realised for raping etc to be stopped, there needed to be a two way action to this disgusting act of the jahil society, that is woman should protect themselves as well as men needed to protect their women, and not allow them to be sold off cheaply in some gamble bid...so u see, how highly the Quran had already brought the woman standards too? in comparisn to todays standards, it means woman had become really really liberated...its unfortunate that the society had left the degree of liberation with what it was, and not enhance it and review it in par with the change of time..... of course there was the reinassance of Islam where while the west was butchering people with psychotic problems for fearing they were possessed by demons, the muslims world had already created aromatheraphy baths, nice comfortable areas to treat them instead...look at the difference then and today? i dont know, but i am SURE soemthing went wrong along the way, something that put an end to dynamicity and begun ignorance, prolly to maintain his own power....the famous chemistry we know today as well as the new design of human anatomy is also the design of the islamic reinassance... you see, i can easily point this out to one thing, that the people in power had already been allured by the form of their faith and not the content...its like a man who is crazed by the physical of a woman and not her heart and warmth(doesnt this remind us of our human nature??our ignorances?).....they were more worried about how a woman should be rather than how she should be treated....well i am a sikh, and i must say that i dont have a turban on, nor a beard..its because, i dont feel the need to, i mean i wish well to sikhs who do keep their untrimmed beard and hair and turban, but just cause i dont have one, does it make me any less sikh or even any less kind and nice? does it make me any closer to god? u see, how we look doesnt matter, its how god looks at us...and this, we should all remember.... its about time we realise what our faith has been teaching us all along, ie unity, love, compassion and respect...and yes, respect for everyone of every faith... i had my god brother from Islamabad here for some years and he has left for further studies in the UK recently..he was staying with us for a while studying at a local college, accountancy, and we had him at home, we made sure all the dishes were completely halal(we too ate the halal food although traditionally sikhs eat the jhatka(killed in one blow) meat, but we arent very staunch in everything), we made sure he had his clean sheet of cloth to pray upon..so u see this great degree of respect? and he too had great respect for us...u see the reason my dad helped him out is cause he was a punjabi,sade khoon hi ah , and more even an insaan who needed help....and we did... if one remembers the Medina accord, he would remember how the prophet cleverly assigned the duties of the Muslims towards their minority brothers, so u see he gave them the responsibility of caring for their minority, and not hating them, instead respecting them... u see all great leaders have led us to enlightment, but we alwasy turn back.....take baba Nanak for example, who risked his life saving the pathan muslims form being prosecuted by the foreigner who had already taken over their homeland and intended to kill them all....u see, true love transcends everything, from religion to race....its unfortunate that we always keep strong to our ignorance, and not the love and respect our forefathers had taught us...maybe, someday, we would all wake up and see the bigger picture.... |
| Name: | Javed Zaki - January 11, 2002 |
| E-mail: | zakimoha@pilot.msu.edu |
| Comments: | Rammah Ji! Please can you set both recent poems of mine in proper setting. Or let me know necessary fonts to do it. I will highly appreciate. |
| Name: | Zahra - January 11, 2002 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Bushra: I stated a perspective as perspectives do not drop from somewhere in the air. They are based on one's experience. The way I see or I react or I argue or I interpret has to do with what I see around me and I go through or I have been through. So your point on ours vs the rest of the world is light in weight. In my previous post, I have not brought anywhere the mention of Islam except from mentioning "Muslim Women." I only did that as Sherpal, living in a diverse community, drew a fine distinction on certain customs amongst certain people. Many who write on this board do not necessarily agree or disagree with each other being from either gender. How can you have a common consensus? Being Pakistanis, we have different way of looking at our history, our culture, our language and etc. Being Muslims, we do not abide by the norms of Islam in a similar fashion. Some are orthodox, some are moderate, and some do not believe in anything[still you cannot go and term them non-muslims]. I have skimmed through your points. No offense meant, as I said earlier, from my mind's perspective, I am way past these points. I do not plan on commenting. Beliefs and practices are for yourself. Being an adult and grown-up, you are raised with certain things and they stay with you whether you wear long skirts or shalwar qameez, abaya or chador, scarf or no scarf, jeans or lehnga. You are too caught up in logistics. Religion is all in "INTENT" for me. If a man divides his assets by religious law and does that with bad intention then he will get that reward from God. If a man, marries off his daughter to get rid of her, so he can give away his assets to his sons, he will get the reward on his action. If a woman wears Purdah and has an evil heart and spirit, she will be rewarded for what she stands for. If a woman wears Purdah only to please God, she will have her reward from God. If a woman has to wear hijab and scarf due to her family men and she doesn't feel like taking that - again, that's between her and God. Again, education with proper understanding on the norms of life, is a big thing. It's not a luxury; it's a responsibility.
The following is my email signature. I often change twice or thrice a year and find something beautiful. I read this a few months back and I cannot take it off. Dil Naeen Mun Da!
"No matter how much the teacher strives, |
| Name: | Bushra Khan - January 11, 2002 |
| E-mail: | khanbushra@hotmail.com |
| Location: | New York, NY USA |
| Comments: | Dear Zahra: I read your postings with interest because we are the only regular females on this forum. You are a lucky person to have parents like yours. I will say that my own perspective is different because I try to look at things not only from my personal experience but try to understand how things work in our society what are the values, customs, attitudes what is right or wrong not that whether it applies to my own life or not .. and what are the root causes? I will say that is useless to advise parents to treat their children equally etc it may work for a small minority who are open to such advice. But looking at the Pakistani and West Punjabi society at large I am sorry to say that there are deep rooted cultural and historical reasons behind the way women in general not in yours or mine families necessarily are treated. I am even more sorry to say that our religion, Islam, is the MAIN cause of why women are not treated equally in ALL Islamic societies there are clear cut, unambiguous, undisputed, not open for too much different interpretations edicts and orders against equal treatment of women in Quran not by any ignorant or crazy mullah but by the Quran itself. From the birth of Islam, down to our times, all religious scholars have been of the same view that women are not to be treated equally with men at least not inline with the modern view of women equality. To give you one exmaple: Islam requires women to observe PURDAH .. clearly ordered in Quran . One can dispute about the form of purdah but cant deny the clear instructions of Quran that require women to hide their zeenat those physical features that differentiate a women from a man - or however you interpret it from all men except a handful of very close relatives. Without going into the details of other anti women equality edicts, just think about the disadvantage women have in Islamic societies due to this purdah or zeenat hiding order and think about the potential of abuse of this Order Taliban being a modern example - but throughout Islamic history, this edict has been used to assign a secondary position to women as compared to men and it is still enforced in all Islamic societies in one form or another. Now, if my father or your father decide to allow us to ignore this clear order of Quran, we are two lucky women because our fathers have put our wellbeing above what Quran has ordered. How about the millions others for whom any order of Quran is a matter of life and death and they would rather overdo it then take the risk of taking too much liberties and be punished? Can this root cause be cured by just advising everyone to treat their daughters equally with their sons? Can we do that without any reference to what to do about the Quranic order of purdah. You and I can change our lives with the approval of our fathers, but womens condition in Islamic society cannot change until we find some way out of the many anti women equality edicts of Quran. There is no way around it our societies have to some how find a way to deal with this dilemma the whole world has reached a consensus that women and men are equal unconditionally totally no if, when, how, and but (that are favorite of Mr. Mahmud Fahim). Quran on the other hand has many if, when, how and but for equality of women with men. This means that we first need to redefine our religion we need to come to a conclusion as a society not just yours and mine family that some of the Quranic orders are no longer applicable may be they were good for people who were living in the desert 1400 hundred years ago but are no longer relevant to todays conditions. We need to say that loud and clear, openly and explicitly, we need to reach that conclusion intellectually need to convince our religious leaders on this. Individually we can chose to just ignore these edicts but the reality is that just ignoring will never work if you truly want to eradicate this centuries old stigma on Muslim women and the mindset of Muslim men who take it as granted and even required by Islam to subjugate women. Let us face the problem heads on and the problem is what is ordered in Quran about women that is the root cause of Muslim societies attitudes about women. I am sure in your family is so enlightened taht no difference is made between men or womens inheritance again totally ignoring Qurans explicit order. I say that if all Muslim families just like your family will have the courage to ignore all of Qurans anti-women orders this will become a better world. |
| Name: | Zahra - January 11, 2002 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Javed Zaki: I could not understand the poem/geet you wrote for women or I should say in support of women. Could you please explain that to me. I understood your other work, but this poem was a little difficult for me. Mujhae Bilkul Samajh Naheen Ayee... :(
Just to give a personal example: By the grace of God, I am gifted with parents who have strong values but are open minded/progressive and will always stand by me in all the decisions I make. I have been rarely challenged on my judgements and decisions. I cannot take any credit there except for thanking Allah Taala for the supportive family I have. Someone mentioned something earlier regarding a woman having permission from the wali on marriage and the issues with that. I am not sure if you ever read the case of Saima Waheed. It was big family drama that took place in Pakistan in 90s. I was of the opinion that the relationship between the father and daughter should have been so strong and open that the daughter is able to openly mention her dreams and desires/aspirations to her father. Yes, sometimes some people can have strange parents as well who are driven by their egos and way of thinking, but that is again going back to my initial theory: women need to inculcate in their kids the basic training on gender equality. So when the sons have kids they consider them equal. When the daughters have kids they treat them equal. And this happens, regardless of the fact whether you are from clergy or from any other social strata . Just to give you a personal example, my parents would always always stand by my decision to marry whoever I like to; but I would not like to consider someone who they disapprove of. Somehow, knowing them, I know they would NEVER refuse my choice; whereas, I would ALWAYS like to have their blessings in my life. It is unimaginable for me to even consider anything in my life without their blessings. But again, it saddens me that we keep on bringing these issues from zamanae' qadeem. I have read about these things in my childhood on zamanae jahiliya. I am way past these silly barriers. And I would not even like to spend time on contemplating on them. There are far more important things in life to worry about and look into -- depends on one's way of thinking. Time to go...Take Care! Parents who treat their kids as their best friends and leave the channels of communication open are the best and darling ones :)! |
| Name: | bawa - January 11, 2002 |
| E-mail: | bnanno@altavista.com |
| Location: | Leioa, Spain |
| Comments: | Dear Sherpal Singh and everyone,
It was very good to read your opinions. I think Malaysia could be an excellent example of how most people can live together and even enjoy each other's culture/religion, whatever and the world is a better place for it.
Also, although it is not in Punjabi (apologies), I liked this extract from an Urdu nazm by the poet Mohinder Singh Bedi, when he was invited to a Muslim/Urdu conference and some people raised some objections because he is a Sikh. It is called "Hum kisi deen se hoN quaaile kirdar to heiN", you can hear it at this link |
| Name: | sherpal singh - January 11, 2002 |
| E-mail: | sherpal_singh@hotmail.com |
| Location: | klang, malaysia |
| Comments: | dear zahra and javed , firstly, thank you for understanding what i had to say, and it means alot.... well and javed, i am glad that u actually presented that beautiful 'kaafi' to me, well u see how beautifully our fore fathers thought? no wonder their legend lasts forever... well and as for zahra's view that she is a woman and its upto her to decide her fate, bravo! remember, even the Prophet's wife, Khatijah bt. Khuwailid, was a successful business woman, he did not have her captive in a home with black tinted windows....they were a dynamic and successful couple...then why are some punjabi muslims actually bringing in ancient arabic cultures that the Prophet himself did not adhere and opposed!? i even know of punjabi sikh girls who nowadays wear white on their wedding day saying thats sikhism, but is it???? i mean red has always been a punjabi colour to symbolise fertility and a woman's marriage life, does it mean just cause we are muslims and sikhs its time we throw off all our identity? so what makes us think white is purer then red? arent they just colours, all being creation of God? who are we to decide which of God's colour or people are better or worse?? there is this verse in the Granth sahib that goes "as the qazis and the pandits forget their godly duties,it is satan himself that now performs marriages forcing innocent women into marriages...and God hears the cry of innocent muslim women who seek His refuge via the holy Quran, and the same goes to women of both high and low caste hindus that also seek the help of God " thanks...bye..:) |
| Name: | Javed Zaki - January 10, 2002 |
| E-mail: | zakimoha@pilot.msu.edu |
| Comments: | Sherpal Singh Ji! A tribute to your sincere humanistic ideals. I am posting a "Kaafi" of mine Kaafi Ishq namaaz meiN her ja neeti Farq na keeta mandar maseeti
|
| Name: | sherpal singh korotana - January 10, 2002 |
| E-mail: | sherpal_singh@hotmail.com |
| Location: | klang, malaysia |
| Comments: | well, i am glad that there are sindhis who are already thinking of getting along with the punjabis...u see in the human nature, we love to divide...first among races, then religions, then sects, then school of thoughts.... thousands of prophets have come and gone, yet we all fail to understand the sole thing they have all preached love and unity well i know how the sindhis would feel, having the punjabis monopolise the state of pakistan, just like it would not be too much to say also rule the highest posts in india...i can understand the frustrations of non-punjabis well take the sikhs for an example, who started off as a group of unified muslims and hindus, today have also made a distinction themselves....even worse, they have come up with opposing sects...so u see, its time we all learn to unify, not seperate, we make a better chance of surviving our culture if we are unified.. and yes, the sufi culture is truly our natural identity....its unique, as a sikh, i have learnt that sikhs also consider themselves as modern day sufis,sufis praises of god, sufi believes are inscripted in every page of our doctrine, yet we fail to underwtand what it means , that it means 'love'....so u see, how similar we all are, yet how different or superior we all try to behave? its saddening.. how many sikhs today would readily call their god Allah or Ram?despite the fact that these arent just the thousand of words for god, different languages having different names.. i hope, that all of us would wake up someday, and get united , for our main enemy isnt each other, instead its ignorance....its time we do what our fore fathers did, live together ...wouldnt it be nice if we could have a Priya, a Sarbjeet and a Haseena walking hand in hand together instead of being divided by religion and countries and ideologies? maybe it would come true someday, maybe never...but if we could get along and tell people of how much we thirst and long to be united, maybe we would end up being united someday soon anyways....most sikhs,hindus and muslims forget that their faith is about uniting...how many people remember about the Hajjar rock in Mecca where Prophet united the four disputing tribes simply by offering a cloth to place the rock upon and shifting it....isnt it beautiful? such simple gestures for such long lasting peace? and the sikhs too should not forget about the mosques their Gurus have built , like the Guru Ka Maseed built by the 6th Guru Hargobind which today lies in the virtual east punjab(the fact is there is only one punjab, we are all part of it)......well i hope all of us could get together someday, sindhis and punjabis and realise we are so so so similar, in language, even in faith(isnt our faith all based upon sufi thoughts?)...doesnt the Sikh bible consider the Koran and the Puranas as both heavenly abodes?i hope we will all remember these similarities and discard our difference....*smile* |
| Name: | Zahra - January 07, 2002 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Please read the following link for the latest issue:
www.parabola.org |
| Name: | Saeed Farani - January 06, 2002 |
| E-mail: | saeedfarani@hotmail.com |
| Location: | Rawalpindi, Punjab Pakistan |
| Comments: | Dear Naseer Memon SaeeN, I am pleased to read your loving remarks. We too love Shah Latif Bhatai, Sachchal SaeeN and Sh. Eyaz from the depth of our hearts. I don't see any difference between Sindhies and Punjabies. Best wishes. |
| Name: | Naseer Memon - January 06, 2002 |
| E-mail: | nsaarang@yahoo.com |
| Location: | Hyderabad, Pakistan |
| Comments: | I am a Sindhi from Hyderabad, presently working in Islamabad. I did visit the website and congratulate you on this excellent work. I would suggest to add poetry of Sufis from all parts of Pakistan. Sufi's message is our common heritage since they are for love and peace. Sufis teach respect for mutual rights and tolerance. Our national cultures have enormous potetuial, we unfortunately made it forbidden tree. I might have political disagreements with political leadership of Punjab but our love and respect for punjabi culture is unquestionable. In fact Sindhi's were often termed traitor becuase of demanding their cultural rights. It is a matter of great pleasure to see that sons and daughters of Pujab are now working for promoting Punjabi language and culture. I wish you all the best Regards Naseer |
| Name: | Zahra - January 05, 2002 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Sherpal Singh: Thanks for writing your observations. Very Good Points. Religion should not create walls. Anyone who says that it does is a contributor to the mess, for he has not experienced enlightenment. Simple. Take Care. |
| Name: | Zahra - January 05, 2002 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Something to read... January 3, 2002 Pakistan's Welcome Gestures NY Times - Editorial/Opinion Section http://www.nytimes.com/auth/login?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/03/opinion/03THU1.html |
| Name: | Saeed Farani - January 05, 2002 |
| E-mail: | saeedfarani@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Dear Sameer Jee, I read your article "Obsession with borderline issues" in WWW.CHOWK.COM. It is wonderful analysis. I feel very close to your thoughts while reading it. What is strange affair that two person though living in two different worlds think on the same lines. Your two words theory "G & B" is great. Why don't you send copy of your articles to THE NATION (Lahore) and DAWN (Karachi). It is the time when people and government are becoming ready for the structural changes in almost century old mindsets. This change is now inevitable. Better do this job and guide the people of this land. Ehdey wich ee ehnaaN da bhala ey. I made a few copies of the article and gave to my close friends. The article "Rethinking the Kashmir Policy" by Dr. Manzur Ejaz has also been admired by our friends. Let me tell you that generally, what I do when I read any thing suitable to our present situation, I just make a few photo copies and distribute among my friends and the educated customers who come to my shop. Best wishes. Think about the welfare all humanbeings is a wonderful job and asaanooN eho jehey kammaaN wich ee eggay wath chaR kay hissa pauna chahi da ey. |
| Name: | sherpal singh - January 04, 2002 |
| E-mail: | sherpal@yahoo.com |
| Location: | KLANG, malaysia |
| Comments: | well salaam to everyone, i would just want to point out, that it is my pride to actually visit this website and realise that there still are punjabis in thie world who consider themselves as one, equally one. remember, we are from punjab, 'the land of five rivers'.....it can not function as just east or west, we function as one nation, one blood. how can we call ourselves punjabis if we are disunited, can punjab simply be called punjab by having 2 or 3 rivers?we need all five of them, together.. remember, our land is being bordered by nations who couldnt be bothered about our culture.. i would just want to point out this poem that Kabir Bhagat wrote that is also inscribed in the Granth Sahib of the sikhs.it went about soemthing like the below: 'awal Allah ne noor upaya, Kudrat ke sabh bandey, us noor ne is jagat upjeya, kaon bhaley kaon mandey?' all i want to remind my fellow punjabis is, we are so similar, yet we ten to magnify our tiny difference.who are we to comment on who is good and who is bad? living in a foreign country in malaysia, where we punjabis stand up for each other has left me puzzled about my fellow people in UK and punjab who have so much of hate and mistrust. my mom's best friend, who is a muslim punjaban actually tried all she could to put me into the International Islamic University to do medicine, she is more like my mother's sister. so u see, at the end of the, its us who stand up for each other, remember, blood is thicker than water. at the end of the day, the first gurdwaras built in malaysia were built by hindu, muslim and sikh punjabis, and its this same gurdwaras that served the punjabi muslims who needed a place to lodge, food and money before going to the Holy land(Mecca and Medina)..the punjabi ladies worked together in the langgar hall, preparing food for all the punjabi families who were going to brave the sea to their respective holy lands, wether punjab or the arabia.. the few punjabi mosques and mandirs in malaysia were built with the help of all punjabi people, poor hindu, muslim and sikh men from punjab who saved every dime they had for the betterment of their fellow borthers..i remember my grand dad(who has now passed off) telling me that he helped to build one punjabi mosque not just with cash, but with his own bare hands, he said its where 'rabba vassda'(where god resides, thus worth helping...they were poor policemen recruited by the british, and today we stand tall with our pride, as Punjabis...now arent we all proud being punjabis? i hope, maybe, just maybe, someday, punjabis would again cross borders as their forefathers always have, and be united again, as what they were before the foreign influences......take care, bye |
| Name: | Raman - January 02, 2002 |
| E-mail: | raman424@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | thanks Mr Dulla Bhatti for those heartfelt new year comments shared by many punjabis like myself lets hope the situation ends peacefully |
| Name: | Sameer - January 01, 2002 |
| E-mail: | jbsameer@yahoo.com |
| Comments: | Dear Saeed: Here is couple of my other articles you might like reading. The article at chowk.com also provides a list of other articles on the right side of the page. The article at Sulekha.com is the latest one; it is about Taliban. http://www.chowk.com/bin/showa.cgi?sameer_apr0301 http://www.sulekha.com/articledesc.asp?cid=160890 |
| Name: | Saeed Farani - January 01, 2002 |
| E-mail: | saeedfarani@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Dear Sameer Jee, What a clear thought about life you have. I appreciate that. I love your writings which are full of truth. Best wishes. Saeed |
| Name: | Saeed Farani - January 01, 2002 |
| E-mail: | saeedfarani@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Dear Sameer Jee, What a clear thought about life you have. I appreciate that. I love your writings which are full of truth. Best wishes. Saeed |
| Name: | Sameer - January 01, 2002 |
| E-mail: | jbsameer@yahoo.com |
| Location: | New York, USA |
| Comments: | Let me try the HTML commands to write my posting here with tears in my eyes after reading DullaBhatti's essay and his new year message. One can feel it brimming with love and passion for our dearest culture. It is our responsibility to try our best to ward of even the remote possibility of nuclear ho;ocaust in south Asia with, once again, Punjabi blood spilling cheaper than water in the beautiful land of five rivers. HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL PUNJABIS. MAY THE COMING YEAR BRINGS PRIDE, PROSPERITY AND HAPPINESS TO US THROUGH OUR CULTURE. There are many issues, I would like to touch upon here. To the question as to why Pakistani Punjabis are much more introspective than Indian; my answer would be that in Pakistan Punjabis constitute somewhere between 60-70 percent of population whereas in India they are about 7 percent. When the rights to a majority population are denied; it is very different than a minority being denied of their rights. Any person of mediocre intelligence can see the difference in acceptance of Punjabi culture on both side of the border with respect to their percentage in the nation as a whole. I would love to see all Indian Punjabis even doing better but the question to promote Punjabi culture among Pakistani Punjabis is essentially a Pakistani one although input from our brothers and sisters from across the border is greatly admired. Muslims in general are obsessed with the superiority of their religion and suffer from delusions of grandeur based on a grandeur that lasted about 300 years in the middle east and Iberia (Spain). However, this is not the only example of grandeur. The Chinese, the Indians, the Bantu Africans, and others were not neanderthals and living in caves during this period. They had their own civilizations which are not aggressively proselytizing ones. Not only Muslims but Egyptians, Greeks and Romans, Indians and Chinese also had periods of grandeur in the last 5000 year history of mankind. Not only Muslims tend to ignore this fact, they actually give bad name to the most grandeur of all, the Egyptian civilization. Just look at the time period they were at zenith and the contributions they have to the evolution of civilizations. Yet we through all their contribution in the gutter because of Jewith myths of their treatment there-although no historical evidence has ever been found to place this sheep herding nomadic tribe in Egypt any time in the history of Pharoahs. The lies and stealing other people's myth are passed on to Christians and Muslims through their belief system and dogma. Then the Christians and Muslims go out and teach lesson to everybody else of their mythical self-serving superiority. Due to this obsession to prove themselves and their dogma perfect, they rely on varied interpretation and bring up Quranic quotes and religion when anybody using common sense can say the same moral and ethical injunctions. When I see my mother or sister, I do not rush to Barnes and Noble to pick up a copy of Quranic translation and Fatima Marnisi book to see what Islam say above loving mother or sister and then tell my mom or sister that I love her because it is written in Quran and interpreted by Imam Ghazali. Same goes about all moral and ethical values which are secular and common to all humanity. Same goes with the rights of women in society and the equality of all human beings without regard to gender. I am not stupid to find through Brns and Noble about what Islam says about the rights of my sister when she is sitting in front of me and looking at me with all the love of a sister. I do not need education in Arabian culture of 7th century to decide about her rights when she is as qualified as I am. No Quran, Bible or whatever can over write the feeling I have towards my sister and sisters of others. Religions and dogma have a place int he society and that is limited to spirituality of an individual. I give a damn about any Imam, Sufi, mufti or mullah telling me where should I confine my sister or somebody's sister, Bushra. It is all upto my sisters what they want to do. I'll always be supporting them in the same way as they support my ideas. Muslims must use common sense before rushing to find what religious injunction says about anything. |
| Name: | Mahmud Fahim - December 31, 2001 |
| E-mail: | agsmz@yahoo.com |
| Location: | Vienna, VA USA |
| Comments: | A glimpse of history from Daily Dawn, Dec31, 2001: The Chailianwala monument The pillar-monument at Chailianwala (not Chillian), the photograph of which appeared in Dawn on Dec 22, is not an ordinary war memorial as was described in the footnote. The Battle of Chailianwala, like Plassey, was the most significant of battles in the British history of the subcontinent. Whereas Plassey was the first one fought by the troops of the East India Company under Clive, this one was the last and final battle fought by them under General Hugh Gough (and not Lord Couch) against the Sikhs who were headed by Jathedar (General) Sher Singh and not Prince Sher Singh. Prince Sher Singh, son of Ranjit Singh, had been murdered along with his son by Ajit Singh in 1848. The Chailianwala Battle was fought on Jan 15, 1849. The tombstones on the mass and few individual graves in the necropolis reveal that the British troops comprised all nationalities of the UK like Irish, Welsh, English and Scottish. This famous battle was fought in two phases, the first one at Chailianwala close to the place where the monument stands today, and the second one, 18 hours later a few miles from the first one and close to the present day Rasul Head Works on the left bank of River Jhelum. Here the British who were in hot pursuit of the Sikhs did not find them in the form of a Jatha or a formation. They were found sleeping, not proverbially but actually, having tied their horses to the nearby trees. They were hence easily defeated and could never form up again. The Sikhs formally surrendered three weeks later thus closing the chapter of Organized Sikh Sway and Sikhashahi in the Land of the Five Rivers, the Punjab. They have done well to renovate/rebuild the monument. LT COL (R) SAMIULLAH BUTT Karachi |
| Name: | DullaBhatti - December 31, 2001 |
| E-mail: | dullabhatti47@yahoo.com |
| Location: | San Jose, CA USA |
| Comments: | May God, Allah, Waheguru, Bhagwan bless the whole world with peace and happyness in teh new year. May my beloved land of five rivers be saved from nuclear holocaust. |
| Name: | Zahra - December 31, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Lastly, Life is a struggle. And I mean struggle in a positive sense. There has to be imperfection to strive towards perfection or I should say close to perfection. Yes, there are issues and there are various concerns. But that reminds me of the saying that one should look below oneself when it comes to being thankful to God. Even if men were 100% perfect according to women, we would still not be happy. Azad's words on "Insaan Kissee Haal Main Khush Naheen Rehtaa" are poignant, simple and very true. I was getting a snowman today, when I ran into a faqeer, who was requesting people by stopping them at each stop, "Could you get me something to eat, Sir? I am very hungry. I really want to eat xyz." This fellow on crutches said that so many times to all the ones who were passing by that it simply stopped me. By the time, I stopped for a few minutes and left, he gave me so many God Bless You duain that my heart filled with joy. At then, I told myself, who cares if the rest of the world has crazy idiots out there; as long as there are good people on the face of earth, they will run into fellow good ones. That's my belief! So, worrying about those who aren't as we wish them to be is being paranoid and a wastage of time. That's a very personal view. A very happy new year to all. |
| Name: | Zahra - December 31, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Uncle Kahloon: There is one thing that was left unsaid:religion, beliefs, practices, culture and values are all for one-self. There is no ehsaan on anyone else. In that respect, a secularists remarks on his individual existence can be valid. Can be or cannot be? Bushra: |
| Name: | Javed Zaki - December 30, 2001 |
| E-mail: | zakimoha@msu.edu |
| Comments: | Bushra Ji and Zahra Ji! A commendable analysis of the women liberation issue in the context of Pakistani and Islamic societies. Bushra Ji, if you happen to get hold of a book Male Elites and the Issue of Veil by Fatma Marnisi, please do read it. You will find it a very non-traditional, feminist description of the main issue of Hijab and other female rights. She massively quoted from ethnic Islamic material (Quran, Hedith, Seerat-un-Nibi and Islamic history) to put her argument in right perspective (off course, pro-women) and to disprove the anti-women stands of orthodox/conservative religious elements. She heavily focused on the issue of Patriarchy in the Arabian Society at that time and how it worked negatively to hinder the evolution of womens human rights. Well! Patriarchal institutions are still intact in a majority of Muslim societies. I must say you both have done a tremendous job to critically analyze the womens rights issue in the context of patriarchy in your postings. I strongly believe that women can only do it accurately as they are the ones who confront all kinds of differentiations and discriminations. A man can never understand it. Anyways, we (my wife and me) are working on a research proposal for funding to conduct an empirical study various socio-religious issues (Hijab, Gender segregation, Male domination etc.) of Muslim population in the Midwest. Let me post a poem of mine, which I dedicated to the Women Action Forum. The Women Action Forum along with other Womens rights Groups (during the authoritarian regime of Zia) had a demonstration in Lahore on the issue of the Law of Evidence. According to this so-called Islamic law (misinterpreted), a womans evidence was declared invalid in any institution of criminal justice system. These women were severely beaten up by the police but they never gave up and struggle is still going on (Rammah Ji! Please do the job and acknowledge my appreciation) ((((( Apne HaqqaaN lei laRan Waali Nabhar (who struggle) AortaaN Da Gaawan)))))) . Aj chiRaaN khhamb khhalaare .. EhnaaN udna aiN Ruj udna aiN Ja bena ursh kinaare. Aj chiRaaN .. . Jeevan rog (pain) sada neiN sahna .. JindRi gaalan lei neiN behna .. Jind malook, malook neiN rehna Chaane apne bhaare Aj chiRaaN Saanjh bane trinjan di boli Na koi raani na koi goli .. Apne huth sadhraaN di doli .. BhaaveeN shoh vichkaare ..Aj chiRyaaN .. RashmaaN dhote pindde bhaagan .. JeiN akhhaaN nit sooraj jaagan .. Jeevan shaala surt sohaagan JinnaaN paaR (differences) wangaare . Aj chiRaaN |
| Name: | Manjinder - December 30, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Sutluej@Hotmail.com |
| Location: | Hayward, USA |
| Comments: | Here are some lines of a song which is liked by every punjabi and hope you guys will like too. punjabiae jubaney ne rakaney mere des deye fiki paey gaye chehrey de nohhar median khelrey fere bulley deye kafiay ne kihney tera lah liya shingar. regards manjinder |
| Name: | Bushra Khan - December 30, 2001 |
| E-mail: | khanbushra@hotmail.com |
| Location: | New York, NY USA |
| Comments: | Dear Zahra: Thank you. I liked your posting specially because it shows your caring and concern. I agree with most of what you have said. Like you I also do not any more let any man dictate my life. My observations and complaints were not about my personal circumstances. As an individual some of us can take care of ourselves. I think it is not beyond us to look at what is happening to others in our society and why. It is perfectly OK to worry about one's personal circumstances but if someone like me also thinks about the situation of gender relations and status in our society - that should alo be OK and that is what I was writing about - not about myself. Unless you believe which I am sure you don't that I should leave the problems of society for men to resolve and only worry about myself. One thing that I want to know reading your posting: Can you refer me to the books of any established and recognized muslim scholar who believes that all the Quranic injuctions about the secondry status of women are now null and void(pardah in whatever form, lesser portion of parents property then men, separation of sexes, prohibition to marry without the permission and blessing of a wali or male gaurdian, different roles of women in the society - women primarily at home and men everywhere else and other family laws). You said that "Your argument on the Imams sounded very prejudiced argument. I am not talking about a stuck up maulvi." I have an interest in this subject and have yet to find an Imam who is not stuck up on the subject of women and will greatly appreciate if you can refer me to the writings of Imams that you had in mind. I am not talking about people who make a decision to ignore these Quranic injuctions in their personal lives because that only affects a few lives. But those Imams and islamic scholar who reject these Quranic injuctions as outdated and no longer applicable. Subjugation of women through pardah, separation of sexes and other means is a very very powerfull idea based on a very powerful vision of an islamic society that rules the lives of majority of women in the Islamic world. The islamic scholars that I have read differ on the severity of required women subjugation, but do not negate it completey and consider it necessary in one form or the other to keep a balance in the islamic society. If there is any islamic scholar that you know who in our times has openly challenged this idea and believes in unconditional equality of sexes, I want to read his or her writings. Again, thanks for your kindness and detailed reply. Saeed Farani: I am not well versed with Sufi writings. May be you can guide me to some that I need to read. Thanks |
| Name: | Zahra - December 30, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Dear Bushra: I want to address some of your concerns and I am thinking keh kahan sae start karoon. Aur Kaesae start karoon. :) Ok, I will do so with a saying that "God helps those who help themselves." Being a woman, if you ever thought a man is going to come and tell you how to progress and succeed in your life, then you were/are out for great disappointments. Forget about the histories of all the empires and etc etc. concentrate on yourself. I am not a fan of reading the role of women in various histories and emulating them in any way or shape. I simply do not have the time for that. What I would like to spend my time on is myself as an individual. I would like to continue pursuing the goals that I have for myself. Remember, even parents after a certain age can only pray for the offsprings and be the advisers but we (the offsprings) have to be the doers: shape our lives. At the end of the day, what would matter to you: How Razia Sultana led the battalion or how Sohni died or how Heer indulged into the tit-for-tat conversation or how you are making a difference in your own life? Rest is stories. I love well-put stories. I love fairy tales as well. I also love to read the fine pictures drawn by Farid-ud-din Attar, Rumi and Hafiz. There is a message in each story without any doubt. That story may talk about emperors and their empire, birds (as the conference of birds talk about in Farid-ud-din Attar's book -- you must read it), deception and the flaws of the society (as Heer Ranjha talks about) and other calamities right and left. Still they are stories. Ok. Just get the message and see if you can incorporate that in your life and then move on. Do not get caught up there. I think if you do not have a role model and have not seen one you may have a tendency to lean on the history a lot. Also, many of the successful women do look up to men for their wisdom and success. Why? Because there were not many women out there. Most of the civilized men have no issue with the other gender being in the same shoes as they are. But even their issues had some validity, if they ever existed. They did not see women in those fields, i.e. engineering, arts, sciences and etc.so they did not know if they'd be capable to withstand the pressure being women. They only saw women taking care of homes, and nurturing the little babies and etc. That takes me back to my original argument that an educated and enlightened woman will be far more successful in bringing up stable and great men than otherwise. Unfortunately, times have change and nowadays, there is a big mental gap between those, who know and know what they know; and those who do not know and are not willing to know what they do not know. I disagree with you on a few observations regarding Muslim scholars and how they perceive women. It all boils down to the upbringing of a person and how secure he is. If he is insecure regardless of being a scholar or not, he is prone to act weird and expose himself. I am far more comfortable with people who expose themselves as that way I am able to make a careful decision if I would like to sit in their company or not. Once you are out of your parents' nest, your company matters a lot. Do remember that human mind can be very easily corrupted, if the inside of the person is not strong enough (alert enough) to distinguish right from wrong; and make firm decisions and be able to stand by them. Your post drew a very bleak picture on the stance of women. Personally, I would not tolerate any man who dares to dictate my life. I am an individual and I dictate my own life; of course, with the guidance from within and also from people who matter to me and who I respect for their intellect, vision and farsightedness. Mainly, because I have not spent that many years to gather what they have learnt and I can immensely benefit from them. Sometimes, their suggestion may not sound valid today but can be useful tomorrow. Your argument on the Imams sounded very prejudiced argument. I am not talking about a stuck up maulvi. I am talking about scholars who are well read and well exposed to all facets of life. They are not sitting in one dark corner, taking care of their beards and corrupting the innocent minds with their malicious thoughts -- resulting in the end of many innocent lives (we have an example here). You need to be able to differentiate. How would you do that? Sit amongst the "right" people and do listen to your inside! The rest will into the right place itself. No one rules anyone. No one can. No one should. You can only rule, mould and fine-tune yourself. That's a big responsibility. Isn't it? :) Take Care. |
| Name: | Saeed Farani - December 30, 2001 |
| E-mail: | saeedfarani@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Dear Bushra Jee, I appreciate your great understanding the affair and I salute you on your such courage. What I believe and I came to one conclusion after passing 44 years of my life in a extremely backward Muslim society which is more hypocritic that all human beings are equal, either male or female. And this thing I learnt travelling all over the world, by living in various societies and attending even religioius ceremonies in those societies. Let me tell you openly that our Sufies or great mystics are preacher of equality among all the human beings. They negate all the ideas which supress anybody. They are believers of Wahdat-ul-Wajood.You just see that light, colours, fragrances of the flowers and many other things including souls in the bodies (dresses) are not male or female. And these all are the shades or tiny parts of almighty soul or Maha-atama or God. So when you disrespect or disgrace any component either female or male, you actually disgrace that almighty soul or God or creater or nature. When you pinch any body, he or she gets pain irrespective of this male-ism or female-ism. So we have to find or create a new world where we could respect others irrespect of cast, colour or gender. Leting down anybody is not the affair of any humanistic nature man. It is, unfortunately, all taming either taming of males or females. So now it is a time to change and tame the humanity in another way ie creating respectful atmosphere on equal basis for all. Woman slavery should come to an end. Woman should not be treated as woman but as human being and living souls. Best wishes. |
| Name: | Bushra Khan - December 30, 2001 |
| E-mail: | khanbushra@hotmail.com |
| Location: | New York, NY USA |
| Comments: | Daer Zahra: Thanks for sheding some light on the subject how women are treated in west Punjab and Pakistan. I read your posting very carefully and it is very good that you are writing on this subject for many years. I agree with some of things you have written and some not. I think it is not only the jahalat of men or lack of education that is the real cause, it is much deeper than that. It goes back to 1400 years ago when a certain model of Islamic society was first established. In that model, which all muslims dream to emulate and copy and make it a reality today, a certain role of women was decided, with some rights and responsibilities. It wouldnt be a problem if in that code of law, there was room for those laws to evolve and change with the changes in society. Unfortunately these laws are written in the book of God, Quran. Pardah, separation of sexes, lesser property rights, half weight to a womens witnessing and much more. No one has ever openly challenged the sanctity of these laws in the Islamic world. It is no accident that no where else in the world, even where jahalat and poverty is worse, women are not required to wear pardah accept in the Islamic world. It is not just difference in culture and tradition, it is those written laws that have been preached for the last 1400 years, unchallenged. There are of course a amall minority of enlightened families all over the Islamic world, like your family, but the majority still believes in all the injuctions against women. In view of most muslims, the place of women is at home, where they are supposed to serve their husbands and children, make then model men and slave women like themselves and that is about it. If you talked to a religiously educated muslim man, he will say, no, no you got it all wrong, islam gives this right to women and thst right to women but at the end of the day he will convey the same picture that women are a danger to the moral upbringing of muslim men, must be hidden away and kept in their place otherwise they will bring havoc to an Islamic society. They have rights, but with many limitations and their secondry place is fixed in Islamic society, based on separation of sexes and as secondry to men who are supposed to take most of the burden of running the society. Now, historically, Islamic societies have made many failed efforts to become enlightened but simply cannot get out of the trap of written laws. Once, Iran was an enlightened society as far as women rights are concerned, but when muslims who were religiously educated got their chance, they put them back in their designated status. Now the muslim cleric of iran are perhaps the most educated etc., but on the roads and parks and shopping palazas in Iran, moral police is watching women and would punish any women without a scarf or walking with a na-mahram. Shah Zahir tried to do that, give freedom to women and then came the Taliban and rest is history. Jinaah and his colleagues were educated in the west and very enlightened but then came Zia. In Saudi Arabia we cant even get a driving license. The point is that it is not just jahalat or lack of education or tradition the crux of the problem is what is written in the Book and cant be altered, at least in the view of muslim men. The end result is a mild form of slavery for women, but it is still slavery. And once you designate a secondry place for women, or minorities or any other segment of society, no matter how much you try to give them rights etc., within the overall scheme of slavery and secondry position in society, you cannot , never, ever stop abuse. Once you accept that pardah is must for women, then it is pointless to debate what form of pardah, how restrictive and how not, you have open the door for abuse and their will always be those who will insist on Taliban type pardah. Once you accept that women have a secondry position them men in the society, no point in debating how tiny miny the difference is just the idea of difference is enough to open the door to abuse. Rights or equal or they are not. If we accept the inequality the no point of debating how much inequality an dhow to reform it, but must keeping the inequality. In equality cannot be reformed, made more acceptable and human. There will always be abuses. Women will always be treated differently in Islamic societies as long as you accept that they must be treated differently. One needs to study the struggle for freedom and equality in those socities where they have finally got some form of it and also study the history of other subjucated people who were taught that your subjugation is good for you and your society and God also like sit that way. So shup up and act they way we are telling you to act. You dont know what is goog for you. Leave that up to us . Just like muslim men have been telling their wives and siters and daughters for the last 1400 years. You ask Mr. Fahim, he will not only tell you that womens place is at home, will also brings a lot of arguments in favor of this by pointing to mentally retarded chidren of women who are in the labor force and all the extremes in western society and will then say see I am only preaching a middle ground and the middle ground is no ground for women . All muslim men, majority of them are convinced that the society will be destroyed if women are not kept in their place. They are afraid of women liberation. They have ready made ghosts to scare women and those who believe in women liberation and will tell you, no, no, we also believe in women liberation but you see their should be certain limitations to this liberation and it goes round and round and end with the same old story of Islamic vision of womens place in society a mild form of slavery. There are many more points to be discussed but I leave it here for the time being. You are a very very lucky person compared to the large majority of women in the muslim society. You should try to understand the others plight, not in a superficial way, but by deeply analyzing the root causes. |
| Name: | Mahmud Fahim - December 30, 2001 |
| E-mail: | agsmz@yahoo.com |
| Location: | Vienna, USA |
| Comments: | An Article worth reading: From today's Washington Post: How Islam Lost Its Way: Yesterday's Achievements Were Golden; Today, Reason Has Been Eclipsed By Pervez Amir Ali Hoodbhoy Sunday, December 30, 2001; Page B04: URL: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37263-2001Dec28.html
|
| Name: | Dhagga - December 30, 2001 |
| E-mail: | dhagga@hotmail.com |
| Location: | Punjab, Punjab Punjab |
| Comments: | Respected Madam Zahra, You much quote Urdu peotry in your mails. What is wrong with you? Are you fan of Urdu? And doing joke with Punjabi. You don't think that Urdu is rival language of Punjabi in Pakistan? |
| Name: | Zahra - December 30, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Uncle Kahlon: Your last post was very well put and I could not resist but appreciate that. Also, I completely concur with your argument on secularism; your way of educating the secularists was very sweet. My respects to you! It's a very ambiguous term and I had a few suitors who enlightened me with their respective interpretation on this concept a few years back. I thought they were nothing but confused beings with a lot of ego. So, reading your perspective amused me a lot :) The Pakistani American Cultural Society in NJ held its Eid and New Year event tonight. Both the Imams who were invited there talked about the current situation between India and Pakistan and the possible application of Peace, Harmony and Tolerance there. In a way, it was extremely ironic and in a way it was very pertinent. In this day and age, if we can stoop low to the level of wahgah parades and tit-for-tat weaponary display then we better go back to the times of Moen Jo Daro and Harrappa. For our bodies, will be found in ruins and discovered after a century or so as victims of a childish war. I must commend our President-Musharraf for his cool-headedness in this time and the open-mindedness to hold talks. Advani and Vajpayee are acting extremely immaturely and are a shame to the propagated or well chanted practice of democracy. One of them caused havoc in the minds and hearts of the public, children mainly, by suggesting that they should be prepared to give their life for their country. He said that on his birthday to the kids who came to wish him. These were the news in yesterday's NY Times. The world is under so much pressure of preserving, guarding and giving sanctity to human life that it's so damn sad and disgusting to read the steps that are being taken by the Indian Government. On the other hand, Pakistan should ban all the retard and maniac groups who are creating havoc inside the country as well as outside. Who created them and who nursed them should no longer be a question or comment. They should simply be banned and crushed. This country cannot face another war on a piece of land. That land should be kicked out for all times to come. My sincerest apologies to the soul of my very dear late poet, Hafeez Jalandhari in particular, who spoke very passionately on Kashmir in "Tasweer'ae'Kashmir." Our program tonight revolved around Pakistan and the current situation. This is unbelievable what's happening. To both you and Dulla Bhatti: it must be a very moving and emotionally tormenting time when your families had to leave West Punjab. I have talked to a lot of friends and acquaintences, whose familes migrated from West Punjab to East Punjab. Interestingly, most of them are from the vicinity of Lahore. On another note, I ran into a Sikh Sadhu Jee in Manhattan a few days back, who showed so much love and respect for the land of Nanak Jee that I was immensely humbled and overawed. I have no concept of war, except for hearing that from my parents, who were traveling back from East Pakistan visiting my chacha and taya jan, at the time, the war broke out in 1971. My mother hid me in the bathroom at the airport in Dhakka, to save me from hearing the sirens and fighter jets[Well, being a year old at that time, I could not have understood the war sirens and etc...anyway]. Later on, when this story was told to me, I felt pretty bad that I was not allowed to see through the windows. My analytical mind could have gained more knowledge from observing that. Unfortunately, my shikwah was never well addressed :) Lastly, I wanted to briefly touch upon a point that Mahmud Faheem has brought up in one of his posts regarding the criticism on West Punjab on this forum. I would like to state a few thoughts to make sure that we are not bracketing the freedom many Pakistani Women cherish with the situation the Afghan Women are going through. Most of the women I attended school, college and engineering university with, have attained higher education and none were deprived of their basic rights. Well, majority of my friends, who studied engineering are here in the US, holding visible positions in Science and Technology. A lot of them are single pakistani women who have an independent mind and are in the age group of mid'20s to mid'30s. All these women were born and raised in Pakistan. And yes, majority had educated mothers, who are/were in teaching[government servants(including my own mother, who is an assistant professor) and medicine. So, they aren't the first generation women to come that far. Most of us are at least 3rd generation women amongst our families who have come that far. Aside from the surroundings, the individual enthusiasm contributed a lot. Yes, majority belonged to urban community and grew up there. But I have also known of women during my undergrad engineering days in early 90s, who came from very small towns, but did extremely well in their respective boards and were awarded scholarships for higher studies in medicine and engineering. There was a good proportion of some very bright women from Toba Tek Singh and other neighborhoods. All these women, I know from my university days are holding pretty decent positions in government as well as private sector as chemical, civil, mechanical and electrical engineers. None of them cared to throw away their hard work and the process of evolution and growth it brought into their lives. Most of them also had s strong say in the choice of their companions. Yes, they were the 1st generation women who took the big leap. But they are ready to stay and will stay inshallah! Also, we have jerks in our society without any doubt and the more educated and enlightened women we will produce, the more enlightened men our society will have. Our % is still not that high, and one can see the result of that from the mindset of our male community. Majority has not evolved with the passage of time. They have evolved in certain areas where they wanted to. It's just the same game that is played in tackling with religious matters. I have been writing this for many years that our women have come very far, but our men are stuck up and are stubborn and refuse to grow up mentally. Our men have shown immense growth in barbarianism, terrorism, luRna muRna, jehads, fasads and all the related fields. Personally, as a responsible, compassionate, observant, mind-reading and evolving spiritualist, I am disappointed with the progress of our men. That's the same disappointment that made me dislike the mindset of South Asians during my higher studies in the US. And I simply wanted to stay away from that abhorrent and backward mindset. Interestingly, men of my father's generation(60s-70s age group)were and are far more progressive in their approach, mindset and vision than men of today. Apparently, something has happened somewhere. For the latter group, I would only suggest: Time to wake up...tun tun tun! Take Care, |
| Name: | Javed Zaki - December 29, 2001 |
| E-mail: | zakimoha@msu.edu |
| Comments: | (((((A PRESS STATEMENT BY HUMAN RIGHTS AND PEACE ACTIVISTS OF INDIA, PAKISTAN AND KASHMIR)))))) .. Human Rights and peace activists of India, Pakistan and Kashmir have denounced the build up of war hysteria with one voice. We are deeply disturbed at the Indian Government steps in isolating and immobilizing the people of the two countries by putting an end to all forms of communications. This is a denial to the people to people contact of this region and is a serious folly, as it will only add to political polarization. The Indian Governments explanation of this move does not justify withdrawal of existing facilities which had helped to create a better understanding between the two civil societies. A country that prides on its old democracy is expected to encourage interaction between the people rather than damping their spirits. We hope that India's democracy will mature rather than show signs of aging. We condemn the recent attack on the Indian parliament and recognize the seriousness of it. Acts of terrorism, no matter where they are committed must be denounced and curbed. Regrettably the response of the Government of Pakistan was vague, limited and belated. The so-called Jehadism flourishing in our country is primarily detrimental to Pakistan and a menace to the whole region. Pakistan has leapt from crisis to crisis. Thepeople continue to suffer because of the flawed policies of the military regimes and their intelligence agencies. It is a matter of concern for all patriotic Pakistanis when action is taken by this Government it is taken after International pressure is exerted rather than in the interest of the people of Pakistan, who are the greatest sufferers of the Jihad policy of the Government. We had hoped that the dehumanized armed conflict waged in Afghanistan would be a sobering effect on the Governments of India and Pakistan. Instead they are getting carried away into adventurism. The people of the two countries are being used as pawns and the Governments are trying to divert attention from the key issues confronting survival for the ordinary person. Both Governments know that the Kashmir issue can only be resolved through a meaningful dialogue. There remains a huge gap in their positions. India refuses to recognize that the Kashmir issue remains central to the hostilities of the two countries, whereas Pakistan is unwilling to address it through other confidence building measures. We believe that these positions are self imposed as the two Governments are not sincere in ending the cold war between the two countries. Kashmiris are the worst hit in this conflict. Their identity and basic rights must be recognized. War or militancy will not do so. As a first step (outside) militant groups operating in Kashmir must be curbed and disarmed. This must immediately be followed by total withdrawal of the armed forces of India and Pakistan from both sides of Kashmir. These steps are necessary to allow space for the Kashmiris to decide their own future. We denounce the use of media for war mongering by both the Governments. Their rhetoric will only fuel to the tension and give rise to extremism. We call upon the people of India and Pakistan to prevail upon their respective Governments to defuse the current situation and take appropriate steps so that a meaningful dialogue can be resumed. The peace activist on both sides of the border will continue to mobilizepublic opinion against war and terrorism. In this regard we will take a message of peace to the Wahga border on 31st December at 3 PM. |
| Name: | Hassan Shah - December 29, 2001 |
| E-mail: | hassan.shah@wanadoo.be |
| My URL: | |
| Location: | Brussels, Belgium |
| Comments: | Bushra Khan jee, No problem, no tension on my part. I myself appreciate living in a free society as mush as you do. Thanks to this freedom, one can express one's opinion without fear,which is not the case in our native country. However,you would not be doing justice with this freedom if you use it only to attack those who disagree with you. You do have valid points, which need to be presented in polite way. So that people who, like myself, are siting on side line,not knowing which postion to take, could be convinced. "With us or against us" is not a reasonable statement, as much as your desire to send your opponents to mars. |
| Name: | P S Kahlon - December 29, 2001 |
| E-mail: | pkahlon@tnstate.edu |
| Comments: | some comments regarding recent posts; To Dulla ,you have given me some inspiration to write my life story of 1947 but that is for the future. ( My journey from Lyall Pur to the Indian border) To Khalid Ali; you have given an interesting information about the name of Punjab. In my earlier posting I wrote that one of the older name was 'Sapat Sindhu' which according to Sanderson Beck(www.beck.org/EC-vedas.html) . He says Persian often uses h where Sanskrit uses an s. Thanks for the information. so I think sapat sindhu=hapta hindu To Sameer : Your comment that I am non religious because I am secular. If that is true then Guru Nanak must be non religious because he advocated secularism.Then Mian Mir must be non religious because why would he laid the foundation of Golden Temple(for the worship for infidels according to some). Secularism/Humanism is also a faith in my opinion.In that environment each is respected according to their sex/creed etc. Through out the history people have divided according to their own benefits, whether it it is sex or religion or caste.I have little different opinion than yours about the equality of women in the Aryans. I suggest you read the history written by some one outside the Continent.Lest I offend some one I just ask you to go internet and review ancient history(Sn. Beck may be one source).Aryans were not Egaliterian ,You will find that theHarappa- Mohenjo Daro civilization(Pre Aryan) was much more Egaliterian.Every house was of the same size etc. I need to run, will come back to equality of sexes.It is a "KISSA KURSI DA".Those who have powers are not likely to give up easily.Prem Singh |
| Name: | DullahBhatti - December 29, 2001 |
| E-mail: | dullabhatti47@yahoo.com |
| Location: | San Jose, CA USA |
| Comments: | On that September evening of 1965 when jet planes roared overhead declaring the start of war, my mother along with the rest of the family was rushing towards a safer place, my nanas (grandfathers) home, 25 miles away. She was carrying all her valuables with her and I was also present in that family caravan - a few months old fetus in my mothers womb. So everything I have heard about the war of 1965 is hearsay but the war of 1971 left many images in my mind that never want to leave to this day. When I hear the military build up across the border between India and Pakistan, all of a sudden I feel like I am a 4 year old boy in December of 1971 and all those images play in my mind. I think about all those numerous 4 and 5 year old children who might be going through the emotions and imagery that I went through 30 years ago. Punjab de jammeyan nu nitt mohinma - is an accepted truth of life by my elders. When Sir Radcliff sat down to draw the border of Pakistan and India between Lahore and Amritsar in late summer of 1947, my village - Naushehra Dhalla - became an injured casualty of his pen. It became part of India but its sister village - Bhadhaana (Padhaana) about 1 mile on the other side became part of Pakistan. That divided many friendships, relations and end of an era of my family history in that region. My father lost his High School in Bhadaana where he had just started as a 7th grade student that year. With that school he lost many of his friends, teachers, dukaan walas, he used to buy his lunch of chhollays and amroods from, and long walks in the streets of Bhadhaana that he never got the chance to see again although he spent rest of his life only 20 minute walk from it. Accepting all that and much more in the future has become a habit for us. One of those habits is dealing with the war between the 2 countries. I have experienced only one these wars, the war of 1971 on the Western front. When the war became imminent in early winter of 1971 most of the villagers sent their children and other portable belongings to safer places. I along with my 2 sisters were sent to my grandfather (nanas) home sometime in November while my dada ji, my parents and uncle aunt stayed back. Every few days someone will come back from our home and give us the news about what is going on back home. I was not much interested in that probably because I hardly had any idea of India, Pakistan and war. I was happy being at my Naankes home and played with my cousins. Then one day my dad brought the news that they have built a morcha in the front yard of our haveli. Although our village was close to the border, our land was on the Indian side of the village about 2 miles away from the border and we had just moved to the Haveli being built in the farm. Dad told that with the help of some army men they had built a very strong morcha (bunker) where about 15 to 20 people can sleep during the war. This idea got me interested and made me feel home sick for the first time in 3 weeks. I wanted to see our home and particularly see how our morcha looks like. Dad told me the location of the morcha in the haveli and I was using all my imagination to see how it looks like. Before that I had heard about fauji morchas being built around our area but having our own morcha in our haveli was fascinating. I wanted to go back and see my home and meet my dada ji whom I had not seen for weeks. Hardly a few days passed that war started. Fighter planes started roaring during the night even over my nanas home which was considered safe. My uncles had tinted all glass windows in the house with newspapers so that light does not pass through. When I asked why we have to close the glass windows my uncle told me - so that planes dont see our house and bomb it. That scared the hell out of me. I started thinking our morhca back home might be safer than this place and I was kind of upset with my uncles aerial defense system of turning off the lights at night. I liked our morcha better. I remembered, dad had told us that fauji jawaans who built it said that this morcha wont collapse even if Pakistani plane crashes into it. Now I know it was all shoshaybaazi, but back then Faujis words were very assuring. We spent all night staring at the plane lights and flares of bombs dropping here and there in the far horizon towards the border. Next morning my dad and uncle also came from home. They were trapped in the morcha all through the first night of war but with the first ray of sunlight they left home towards where we were. My dada ji insisted on staying in the morcha. He had couple of cows for milk, plenty of chickens that we had at the farm and lot of rice and aaTa. He said he knows how to boil rice and fry a chicken. He insisted that with the stuff he had he can last for 6 months of war - above all he did not want to leave his home in the safety of strangers. It was a matter of honor for him. He was not alone. Many other elders from the neighboring farms who were staying behind teamed up with him. They would cook their food during the day, water the wheat fields, milk the cows and as soon as golabaari started in the evening they will duck inside the morcha and listen to news on radio. Next 12 days of war became a routine after couple of days. I dont remember much about it other than watching golabaari every evening and after some time getting bored and falling asleep. Home sickness and excitement to see the morcha increased every day. After few days my parents and uncles were worried too about dada jis health. A week or so later someone went there and brought the news that Indian army has crossed over to Pakistani territory and our village is safe. Then before the last day of war the word came that war is ending. That afternoon my parents could not stop their eagerness to go back home. They planned with my uncle to go back and stay there as war seem to have ended. When they were ready to leave I insisted to go with them. I started crying and kicking my legs (my trade mark) creating a scene to blackmail them to take me with them. All through the journey we saw army vehicles, checkpoints, army camps, etc. although civilians had gotten the courage to get their necks out at the rumor that war has ended. We reached our home couple of hours before sunset. I was so happy to see dada ji and morcha. I was going inside the morcha every few minutes and checking its strength by jumping over its roof. The morcha was really big like a room with only one small opening coming out next to one of the walls of haveli. I guess the idea was that wall was shielding any bomb shrapnel from going inside the morcha. Many other people in the neighborhood came to our place. Women cooked food and made roTis which dada ji and friends had not eaten for 2 weeks. They were complaining that they were living on rice, eggs, chicken and milk only like they were malnutritioned or something. Everyone has his own stories and mood was very festive. Finally the war was over and our homes and village was safe. The festivities were very short lived. As the sun went down firing started again. Planes and bombs going all over the place. The cease fire was some kind of rumor that everyone believed to come home. About 25 men and women ducked inside the morcha. We had hay laid on the floor of morcha and bed sheets nailed on the sides. It was basically a big round hole in the front yard which was covered first with lot of heavy wood, mostly from the trees freshly cut, many layers of it and then covered with lot of dirt. Considering the bomb technology we had in 1971, this was probably not a bad morcha although nothing to brag about after seeing the caves of Tora Bora. I was the only child in that morcha. All night noise of planes, artillery bombs and firing went on. Dad was switching the radio back and forth between Jalandhar, Lahore and BBC. Every word was being heard by the elders in the morcha very carefully. Once in a while someone will ask for clarification. Every few minutes bomb noise will be so heavy that after it calms down one of the males will get out of the morcha and look over the wall and make a guess about the place where it might have hit. eh te lagda ay bagh wich army de camp te digga ay gola(looks like this one fell on army camp in the orchards) someone announced. When no cannon fired from the camp for few minutes everyone thought may be army camp about half mile away is really hit. But then noise of artillery blasting off bombs from near the camp was heard proving them wrong. In the middle of night amid a calm of about half hour when everyone was relaxed the biggest explosion came. It sounded so loud and close that it shook the morcha, some dirt pouring down through the woods fel on our clothes. It was certainly a close call, it dropped only few fields away from our home. My uncle got out of the morcha to look over the wall to see what has happened. As he got his head over the wall another loud one few fields away shook us again. He ducked back to the morcha quickly while everyone was shouting his name. At this moment many started doubting their own wisdom to come back to the war zone. Someone mentioned my name. I was listening everything ducked inside the rajai(bedding) very quiet and almost pretending like I am sleeping. When everyone was talking loudly someone said shhshhhhhh rolla na pao munda jaag jayega (don't talk loudly, boy will wake up). Next morning when it was over everyone thought I was sleeping all through the night. I told them I knew everything. I told them I was not sleeping but they said but you looked like sleeping. Do you remember when the big bomb hit? someone asked. I said in my trembling voice haan mainu pata jadon tusi kehnday si rolla na pao munda jaag jooga(yes I know when you guys were talking about me that I might wake up). Hearing that everyone cracked in laughter at my innocent remark. That was the last day of war. It ended for us and everyone was happy. To this day everyone who was in the morcha that night reminds me it whenever we meet. Within few days everyone came back to the village. Village is sandwiched between the border line and the defense canal built by India. One has to cross the bridge over the defense canal to go to the village. The bridge was broken and a narrow one was used by army. Many people whose land was on Indian side of the defense canal moved to their farms. Only few months ago ours was the only haveli in the farms but now half of the village started building theirs. It was convenient to be close to the farm where men worked all day. Exploded bomb shells were all over the place in our fields. Many of us kids will go to the fields and collect the metal pieces in spite of our parents restraining us from doing so in case one of them blows up. We would sell this scrap metal to the chhabriwala (bicycle hawker) and buy pateesa (a mithai) from him. Some of these pieces were really heavy and amount of pateesa we would get was good enough to make up for the war damage to our childhood. The army was cleaning up the area and although war was over they were there to stay for a while. They built some checkpoints on the roads, cleaned our school, and had a big open door projection screen set up near their main camp about a mile from our home. There they showed movies to the army men and civilians for free. That was also my first introduciton to cinema and movies. Looking at the way many other wars in history have turned out to be, our wars of 1965 and 1971 on the Western front were nicer ones. Very few civilians died and damage to property was also minimum. In the whole incident only one girl from our village lost one of her finger hit by a flying shrapnel from a bomb blast near by. Wars are not always like that particularly in the modern days of heavy explosives and fast technology. May God bless our leaders conscience. May saner thoughts prevail and no children of my land have to see another war. Let us use free time of our armies to build schools, roads and bridges for the 5 year olds to look forward to something. - Jagjit Sandhu |
| Name: | Abdul Sami Bhatti - December 29, 2001 |
| E-mail: | youngpakistan@yahoo.com |
| My URL: | http://www.geocities.com/youngpakistan |
| Location: | , |
| Comments: | Here is a Sawaal Jawaab from a typical Punjabi Mundda and Kurri in New Generation Punjabi. Please enjoy it. I would like to wish all at APNA Discussion Forum a very Happy Prosperous New Year 2002. Allah hafiz Abdul Sami Bhatti ******************* Larkay da Sawaal ******************* Saadi enj dee wife hoay. Sarrak tay saaray kaheN key cute hoay, Parrosi jiddoon gall karan tay hatth which knife hoay, ************** 6'-6'2" jeddi height hoay uff tak na kare ainaa quiet hoay mainnon rani bana kay rakhay, tay fir zindagi delight hoay jitthay chahnwan jawaan, jo chahnwan karran, kujh ess tarran dee life hoay
|
| Name: | Safir Rammah - December 29, 2001 |
| E-mail: | rammah@apnaorg.com |
| Location: | Fairfax, VA USA |
| Comments: | Minahil Niazi: Let me note a few brief points, although much more can be said on this subject, on why is it important to learn our mother language.: 1) All experts in the field of formal education have come to the conclusion that primary education for children must be provided in their native language. Although children have the capacity to learn multiple languages, their native language provides the best and natural way to relate to their surroundings, things and ideas. On the other hand, a slower development of learning skill is observed when a different language is used as the medium of education in primary schools then the one spoken at home. Without going into much detail, let me quote from the constitution of UNESCO (courtesy Saeed Faranis book Punjabi Zaban Naheen Mare Gee): (UNESCO 1953:11) It is axiomatic that the best medium of teaching a child is his mother tongue. PSCYCHOLOGICALLY, it is the system of meaningful signs that in his mind works automatically for expression and understanding. SOCIOLOGICALLY, it is the means of identification among members of the community to which he belongs. EDUCATIONALLY, he learns more quickly through it than through an unfamiliar linguistic medium. 2). Native language, more than anything else, is the primary vehicle in the continuation of any culture. Words of any language have many and different connotations that can only be understood and appreciated by the native speakers and they carry with them the life experience of all past generations. 3). Native language is the only genuine and true medium of expression for any nationality, in particular for communicating their emotions and feelings to each other whether expressed verbally or through high literature. |
| Name: | minahil niazi - December 29, 2001 |
| E-mail: | minaniazi@hotmail.com |
| Location: | lahore, pak |
| Comments: | dear apnorg.com i wanted some information on why it is important to learn your mother language.can u tell me how can i get it. its type of related to punjabi. |
| Name: | P S kahlon - December 29, 2001 |
| E-mail: | pkahlon@tnstate.edu |
| Comments: | Thanks piare Saeed veer ji, I have written to BBC and told them that 70% of Punjab population lives in villages and most of them don't speak English/Urdu/Hindi. If the objective is not to reach elite only, then they should consider broadcasting in Punjabi also. The letter was long but that was the essence. I hope some other friends will give their thoughts and consider writing to BBC. Happy New Year to every body and may God/Allah/Waheguru/Rabb/Bhagwan bring peace in the world.Saeed Veer JI , we love you all and sada khushi raho mere piare. Prem |
| Name: | Saeed Farani - December 29, 2001 |
| E-mail: | saeedfarani@hotmail.com |
| Location: | Rawalpindi, Pakistan |
| Comments: | Dear APNA friends, Here is the correspondence with BBC. YOU can also try to write them. The lette which I wrote to them. > -----Original Message----- > From: saeedfarani@hotmail.com [SMTP:saeedfarani@hotmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 10:27 AM > To: worldservice.letters@bbc.co.uk > Subject: General query > > To BBC World Service > > Name Saeed Farani > Email saeedfarani@hotmail.com > Comments Dear Friends, > I could not understand that there are over 140 millions speakers of > Punjabi language and you don't give any importance to this language > whereas there are many languages in your list of 43 languages in which you > give news but not in Punjabi. May I know what are the barriers in the way > of Punjabi. Love you all. Saeed Farani > The letter which I received from them: Thank you for your email. BBC World Service broadcasts by radio in more than 40 languages and there are Internet web pages to accompany each of the language services. The decision to launch a language service is based on many criteria. These include the availability of funding, the demographics of the target audience, the local need for news and information in the region where the language is spoken and the strategic importance of that region for Britain. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office of the UK government, which funds BBC World Service, is consulted during the decision-making process. Launching and maintaining a new language service is expensive and it is unlikely that we will start broadcasting in any new languages in the future, or add any other languages to our website as this is supported by our radio broadcasting activities. We broadcast to South Asia in Bengali, Hindi, Sinhala, Tamil and Urdu and because there were historical reasons for establishing these language services. The services continue today because they have large audiences, but there is no guarantee that any of our existing services will continue indefinitely. You will note that there are many other Indian regional languages in which we do not broadcast. Although these regional languages, such as Punjabi, may be spoken by many people, our research has shown that there will not necessarily be a sufficient audience for the BBC among these speakers. Research has also shown that the majority of our target audience in South Asia is able to listen to BBC broadcasts in another language, i.e. Hindi, Urdu or English, even if these are not their first languages. Regards Audience Relations BBC World Service |
| Name: | Bushra Khan - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | khanbushra@hotmail.com |
| Location: | New York, NY USA |
| Comments: | Hassan Shah Jee! Tuhadee kee problem a? Tuseen kyoon tension ley rai o? You are right, If I was living in a muslim society, I would have been declared an outcast for speaking up and for my refusal to accept male dominance in the name of religion. Sorry my friend, I live in a free society and there is nothing you can do about it. |
| Name: | Hassan Shah - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | hassan.shah@wanadoo.be |
| My URL: | |
| Location: | Brussels, Belgium |
| Comments: | Some serious issues are being discussed here by some even more serious people, which i'm not knowledgable enough to comment on. However, I can not help to say that Bushra Khan's outrageous behaviour is far from being intellectual. With this kind of behaviour she can not even win her immediate entourage, let alone her claim to change the world in one person's life time. |
| Name: | Mahmud Fahim - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | agsmz@yahoo.com |
| Location: | Vienna, VA USA |
| Comments: | Ms.Zahra: Wish you best of luck and we all readers will miss you on the forum. But we hope you will come back with fresh thouhgts and ideas soon. Very Happy New Year!!!!! |
| Name: | Zahra - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Bushra and Mahmud Faheem: Both of you are hilarious :) I just wanted to let you know :) Keep it Up!!! I have not read everything stated by both of you. But I am very sure that it will be very amusing and interesting :D Uncle Prem Singh Kahlon: I hope I have the right spellings of your name? I have your email address and would like to send you a note on a question that I have regarding Sikhs. I just ran into one recently and it was a very interesting encounter. Please keep on checking your email in the next few days. Regards, |
| Name: | Zahra - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Dear APNA Members and Team: Just wanted to wish you all a very happy new year in advance. Take lots of rest to rejuvenate and prepare yourself for the next year challenges. Aside from that, my special regards to Safir Rammah for adding excellent poetry and music selections here. Mr. Rammah, your hardwork in updating as well as fine tuning this site is highly commendable! I had a few comments on your poem. It is a little strange and takes a shift many times in the mood and the message. I have read it twice and I may have to re-read it to get the actual flavor and understanding of the surroundings. I am off for a few months and do not plan on writing at any place as it requires a lot of my valuable time and energies; and I need to preserve them for other important initiatives that take precedance. Still, it has been nice and sweet to read, listen, comprehend and absorb. With that said, best wishes to all and allah baili! |
| Name: | Mahmud Fahim - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | agsmz@yahoo.com |
| Comments: | Bushra Khan I will not go to mars but change my gender if the nightmare will come true. O.K and that's it. Regards. |
| Name: | Khalid Ali - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | khalidali63@yahoo.com |
| My URL: | http://www.geocities.com/khalidali63/ |
| Location: | calgary, AB Canada |
| Comments: | I could not be happier,I have just found this website.We need more forums like this.Punjabis are probably the most influential people in the sub-contenent,and yet we have faced the worst form of descrimination both in indian side of punjab and in pakistani side of punjab.We have the history that can be matched by none in sub-contenent. Punjab in ancient Iranian books was called "Haptu Hindu".I will join this group frequently or at least try to. Both indian and pakistani punjab should work together to have a comon script for punjabi. I'll see u guys later. Khalid |
| Name: | Bushra Khan - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | khanbushra@hotmail.com |
| Location: | New York, NY USA |
| Comments: | Dear Zaki and Sameer: Thank you for looking at the issue of women rights here and back home in the proper perspective. Dear Zaki, would you please do another favor and address Mr. Fahim's obsession with the high moral value of giving birth at home? He has proven the sanctity and practical importance of this high moral value through his discovery of the century that All but one US presidents were born at home as if all women who these days seek proper medical supervision throughout their pregnancies and give birth under the supervision of an MD are committing a crime against humanity and their punishment in this world will be that their children will never be able to become President of the United States. If our learned friend will look at the date of births of US presidents, he will found out that almost all of them with just a couple of exceptions were born before 1920's, when even in the USA medical facilities were not widely available or their families were rich enough, like George Bush's, to arrange the same level of medical facilities at home that are available to a common man only through hospitalization. Besides that, one need to look at the infant mortality rates, deaths of women during child birth and other medical complications that are prevalent in those societies where women, due to lack of proper medical facilities not just to uphold Mr. Fahim's newly discovered high moral value, have no choice but to depend on a half trained nurse or a daee. Sameer: You are right on the mark when you point out that the brains of our men are frozen in the Ghazali type interpretation of Quran. Our men will twist and wiggle out of all Quranic injunctions but have made women slaves of literal meanings of all injunctions about them. Women are the worst nightmare of any islamicist. Their life style is based on slavery of women. They know that once women will stand on their own two feet, their beloved vision of Islamic society will shatter for ever. I have news for Mr. Fahim: Your days of subjugating women are over. And don't try to spring the trap of middle ground between two extremes on us: where women still have to hide their zeenat, live in a society based on separation of sexes, have half the vote of a man and lesser property rights, have to tolerate second and third and fourth wife or get divorced and so much more - that is your middle ground - you can take your sacred middle ground and shove it wherever you like but can't make us fool any more. What happened to Taliban is nothing, wait till we wake up throughout the Islamic belt, in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan ... we are your worst nightmare and we are going to brake these chains of literal interpretation. You better take your sacred laws against women to Mars or some place else, because within probably your life time, there will be no place for these outdated and discriminating laws on this earth. |
| Name: | Mahmud Fahim - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | agsmz@yahoo.com |
| Comments: | Most of the religious madrassahs and supply for them either in Jaish, Lashkar or Sipah is from villages where according to the thesis more equality of man and woman exists. Most of the killings in the name of pride take place in villages, either in Punjab, Sind or any other part of sub-continent. May be it was true some decades back that a person having two acres of land didnt want to marry his daughter to Mullah, but now he is not only marrying his daughter to Mullah but also put his sons in Madrassahs to make them Mullahs. It is very different from the other concepts of either religion or culture. It is economics and the Pappi Paitt. Its hard to see the ladies of the feudals in the villages without pardah or man. The mentality of the villager is very corrupt regardless of his religious beliefs. He has to maintain his source of income, so he does any thing for his survival. We can see the same psychy in all the humans. All the struggle and codes are revolving around this survival. The other big tragedy in the region which is more destructive than the equality of man and woman is the caste system. No one is serious to break these codes. All the forms of revenue, court and even college admissions ask your caste and religion from throughout the past documented history. This is also our history and culture. It is very hard to change these norms at the masses level. I was lecturer in a college in Jhang District and in 1998, the villagers of Kandiwal did not accept a Mochi as the headmaster of their high school. That person was at the verge of retirement and government did not find any other school for his joining, so he retired without getting that post. These are the extremes regardless of religion or two nation theory. Sometimes I thought that this discussion forum is only to condemn the West Punjab and Islam. Is every thing is perfect on the other side at the socio-cultural level? Regards |
| Name: | Sameer - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | jbsameer@yahoo.com |
| Comments: | I am saddened by the turn of current events in our part of the world and Punjabis may be spilling each others blood once again in the name of nations when my nation does not even make any effort - in fact stifles it - to teach Punjabi children in Punjabi language and teach them the proud history of Punjab instead of taking pride in Afghans, Turks, Persians and Arabs - anybody but proud Punjabis. Having said that I do not want to interfere with the topic under discussion. The main difference between Western and our culture, dear Bushra, is the potential and pace of change whenevr it is needed. Ours is more of a static type whereas west is dynamic. Whether it is womens' rights or smoking cigarettes, once west decided that enough is enough; they dedicate themself ferociously, religiously, rationally and decidedly to make a change. We [I exclude myself from "we" because I am non-religious, secular perso whose opinions are not swayed by the religion at all] on the other hand, put traditions and revelations above logic and rationality. In the case of revelations, it is not just the revelations but their interpretations also - particularly when the interpreter is long dead and was of Arabic origin like Imam Ghazali and others. You hit the lead wall anytime you try to break out of interpretive jam and religion becomes "deen" with answers to every damn possible situation till eternity. You are reduced to a flock of lambs with Imam Ghazali, the shepherd.....You have to study Punjab history to understand the current status of women. Since education is a modern concept of last few hundred years, the rights and roles of women in the past can not be judged by the education standards. There are however significant inforamtion available from pre-Islamic empire times of Punjab. Punjabi Hindus know it because the sources are Rig Veda and Mahabharata. Women enjoyed much more equality during almost egaliterian society of Punjab at the time of Rig Veda and before, that of Harappa and Mohenjo Daro period. One of the bone of contention, mentioned many times in Mahabharata is the freedom of women in Punjabi society which conservative Brahmanism of Ganges Plains looked with disdain [Brahminism devised caste system which was essentially a male-based distinction]. They repeatedly ridiculed it as if it was in contrast with Aryan value system. Most of the Punjabi tribes sided with Kauravas and came out on the losing end with Pandavas and their Ganges plains supporters victorious. Then came the intermittant Scythian (Sakas) rulers for almost 500 years which produced a kind of Punjabi racial difference from the rest although we do not know too much about the status of women during their rule. They were hardened fighters. This points to a higher level of male domination due to soldiery while women being homemakers remained important as taking care of crops and families while men fought. The coming of Afghan and Turkic central Asian culture in the garb of Islam brought about highly male dominated culture because women in those cultures were much less respected due to poor quality if land and farming as well as marshal culture of men folks. Unlike Punjab, most of the food and other needs were met by pastoral culture in which women were less important than agrarian culture. Moreover Punjab saw much more wars in sub-continent, being the fromtier state after Khyber pass, than any other culture. The society remained on edge constantly eith each winner plundering, looting, pillaging and taking women as slaves. The rights of women hit the lowest mark during this period. Arrival of British made some improvement and some slow improvement since the independence. Unfortunately this has never been the highest priority of our ruling elite. In this way, they avoid at least one issue to face the wrath of mullahs. The y are not scared of mullahs with feudals being least scared, but it is nuisance for them to arguing with mullahs who live on their hand outs. In villages, mullah is at the low end of caste or respect based structure. Even a person with 2 acre of land would not like her dayghter to marry village mullah. In cities, however, due to constant bombardment of sectarian Islamic religion, twisted Islamic history and government controlled textbook system has created a mindset where nothing comes even close to revelation based interpretation of values system. It is actually Karachi where a conservative from Jamaat-e-Islami has won the mayorship in recent elections and almost winning in Lahore, if not for dovernment interference. Jamaatis can not win in small Punjabi towns and villages for the reason I mentioned above. Acrually the rights and role of women in largely illiterated society of villages are comparatively better than in lower and middle classes of the cities. In the villages, they do not wear burqa and walk without accompanying male relatives anytime of the day. Thus it is the combination of the extension and interpretation of revelations deemed necessary by the state to keep a two nation theory based identity at any cost. I hope we realize that women are absolutely equal to men and let there be no doubt about it. We are different than the people living in caves of Tora Bora with no role for women. We are agrarian, we live in plains, women contribute equally and have been doing so even in illiterat but traditional culture. Why don't so called enlightened muslims of cities learn something from illiterates - for a change. I am sick of listening lectures about "Islam meiN Aurat ka maqam" and Islam meiN huqooq-e-niswaN. Stop actinfg like a lamb with mind in the freezer. Take the mind out and put the lamb in the freezer. Stop acting like robots of Ghazali. |
| Name: | Zahra - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Saeed Farani: I guess I thanked you for your response to my initial inquiry. I completely understood your input. You had something else there that I was not very sure of: kind of explanation of your already stated views or another perspective. I came up with two additional questions after reading what you have stated. They were not supposed to be personal. Interestingly, there was no aggression in the previous post. Yes, it was a highly opinionated one and that's how I am. Thanks for giving some tids-bits of a certain mindset. No more questions. Take Care. |
| Name: | Saeed Farani - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | saeedfarani@hotmail.com |
| Comments: | Zahra, I coud not understand your escalating agressive behaviour. I gave you answer according to thought that you asked the question why women is having a gloomy character in our Sufi poetry. If it is wrong then please correct it or someone who knows it should correct. I agree to Mr. Faheem to some extent that both the extremes are not fair. If a women is made a thing to display in the West that is also bad and if it has been made a thing to play in our societies it is also bad. Take easy. I am not an ordinary man and learning things all the time. My love to my mother language is justified because there is no any nation on the globe except us ( gulible punjabies) who are sacricing their mother tongue for the language which has many lackings I mean Urdu. I don't want to quote a Punjabi proverb which is about one lying blind lady ( land of Punjab) and the forces having a Daang ( long wooden stick) which is being thrust forcibly. I am sorry that I could not make you understood. Take care and be cool. Best wishes |
| Name: | Mahmud Fahim - December 28, 2001 |
| E-mail: | agsmz@yahoo.com |
| Comments: | Dr. Zaki. Thanks for the posting and comments. In the area of human development, Maxine Baca Zinns two books Women of Color in U.S. Society (Collection of essays of different people) and Diversity in Families are great and show the competence and grip of the author on the subject. Regards |