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Name: Saeed Farani - September 29, 2001
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Dear Khadim Hussain Baloch Jee, In Queta you have cetainly a good library of Queta University. You are interested in Baloch History. I can recommed you some very useful books which are easily available in Queta or in Lahore. 1. Tarikh-e-Balochistan written by Lala Hato Ram 2. Tarikh-e-Balochistan written by Mir Gul Khan Nasir 3. The Great Baloch written by Mir Mohd Sardar Khan 4. Baloch Qoum ki Tarikh by Molana Noor Ahmad Faridi There are many other books. You can read and then you can also design a web site about your own homeland (Balochistan). Moreover, you can search enough material from the search engine "www.google.com". Wish you all the best. Dear Sameer Jee, I am trying to understand your point of view relating present situation and Punjabi.


Name: khadim hussain baloch - September 28, 2001
E-mail: bulaidi2001@yahoo.com
Location: quetta, pakistan     pakistan
Comments:   IWANT TO READ ABOUT BALOCHI HISTORY.


Name: Sameer - September 26, 2001
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   SaeedFarani: I understand your point from humanistic point of view. I must link recent events with promotion of Punjabi culture and Punjabiat in some way to make justification to write this post here. A simple way to look at ramifications is to look from two oppositive scenarios. If US attacks and succeeds in capturing OBL and dislodging Taliban from a big chunk of Afghanistan (mostly northern), the regime in Kabul will be at the mercy of US and if Pakistan remains on US side, the relationship between Afghan government and Pakistan will be reasonably good. US will remain in the area to check any re-emergence of Taliban from the southern Afghanistan and to deter Pakistan from helping Taliban again either due to Pathan sympathy or Islamic reasons. This scenario supports breaking the back of fundamentalists in Pakistan and weakens the strong Ywo-nation theory based domination of Urdu and strong center. It forces a better relationship between India and Pakistan and Punjabis on both side of the border-with or without a final resolution on Kashmir. US would like to use this opportunity to contain China also through India-Pakistan-Kazakistan. All this bode well for the promotion of native cultures as a substitute to Ummah and pan-Islamism type philosophies. In the second scenario, if US does little or nothing as you seem to be suggesting, they might bomb, kill or capture OBL and quickly leave for the fear of losing any men and material in the long drawn out war. It will be looked as a victory of Islamists, if Taliban structure in Afghannistan remains in tact and ISI will soon be backing them again. A strong Islamic fundamentalism is strongly anti-India, believes one of every thing and strong central government, likely by the military. It will be the business as usual. More yom-e-takbeer, more yom-e-yakjehti, more shia killings, more qadyanis charged for blasphemy and bankrupt economy. As Punjabis and as civilized Palistanis, we have to make up our mind as to what is more beneficial to our interests. in my opinion, we can not afford Talibanization of Pakistan where you may not even sing a folk song, no bhangra, no women education, powerful mullahs deciding the fate about the centuries of heritage and throwing it away simply because it is not Islamic. So, in my opinion, a deeper involvement of US in the region is better for Punjab, Punjabiat, democracy and Pakistan as well.


Name: saeedfarani - September 22, 2001
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Dear Bush, READ THIS STORY What happened with you is really bad. Everyone who claims himself as human being should condemn this sort of inhumane act. The pinching shadow of this horrible event remains in everyone’s' mind for a long time who feels it in a sensitive way. Now, how America is reacting over it must be understood rationally. But we, people of Punjab whose mother tongue has been killed so badly, have some Punjabi stories full of wisdom. Just one story which links this situation. Mr. Bush must read it. One farmer went to his field to cut the grass. While cutting the grass a hidden snake in the grass bit him on the finger. The snake escaped as usual. The farmer immediately cut his finger in the fear that the poison would spread in his whole body. This way he saved his life. Though the pain of cut off finger was still there. After a few days he thought about his cut out piece of finger lying in the field. He visited his field. He saw that his finger has been swollen like balloon due to the poison's interaction. He took a hard stick (teela) whose end was like a needle. He thrust the pointed stick into the swollen finger and it burst out. The sprinkles of poison fell on his face and he died. He did not die by biting the snake. He did not die by cutting his finger but he died because of his foolish act. No doubt the the destruction of the World Trade Center and Pentagon is like cutting the finger but it should avoid by thrusting stick into the swollen poisonous finger. One must handle the situation intelligently. I wish long life to the State. But it must act rationally. Saeed Farani, Rawalpindi.


Name: Sameer - September 21, 2001
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Here is a small news item I read in the internet edition of "The Friday Times", Lahore. ..................Culture of abuse in Punjab: Inspector General Police Punjab Malik Asif Hayat told daily "Pakistan" that Punjab had a tradition of abusive language in which the police was not far behind. He said dirty words were not used in the police stations of the NWFP but in Punjab the police officers of lower rank simply could not work without using abusive language. In this respect the thana culture of Punjab was no different from Punjabi culture which was abusive...................This is enough even for a non-Punjabi to understand the status of Punjabi in Pakistan. A high ranking official can easily bad mouth about the whole Punjabi culture with absolutely no fear or sensitivity to the culture of majority Pakistanis.


Name: Vijay Kapoor - September 13, 2001
E-mail: vkkapoor@hotmail.com
Location: Renton, WA     USA
Comments:   My heart goes out to the families who have lost their loved ones in this tragic, dastardly, inhuman act. May God give them courage to bear the irreparable loss. I salute those firefighters and police officers who died in line of duty trying to reach and save the people risking their own life. May those injured may get back to normalcy at the earliest.


Name: Safir Rammah - September 12, 2001
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, VA     USA
Comments:   Friends: Just to let you know, in view of yesterday's tragic events we have decided to cancel the Punjabi Conference and Kavi Darbar that was scheduled for October 6th. Couple of our invited guests had already got non-refundable airline tickets. We may request them to come here on October 6th for a general meeting. We will later decide when to reschedule the Conference and Kavi Darbar


Name: Saeed Farani - September 12, 2001
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   It is really very very sad incident. I don't have words of sorrow for this happening in USA. It seems as it is the worst record in the history. After all they were humanbeings. Tears come out automatically when you think about their lives waisted in such an evil way. Killers don't think about their innocent lives, their relatives and friends. Such a big shock to the humanity. Unfortunately, USA does not carry clean record in the past. It bombed two cities of Japan and civilians were killed in bulk. Even today, those atom bombs are showing affects in the form of bearing cripled kids. USA bombed in Baghdad and Tripoli on the civilians too. It never thought they were humanbeings too. This sort of practice happens in our villages where the jungle law rules. If someone kills or disgrace others or a poor man loves with a richman's girl, then his mother or sisters are brought in the streets and they are abused openly. The man who did bad ( in their eyes) escapes somewhere and his whole family is tortured. The same thing is done in our police stations where they bring the wife, sisters or mother of the culprit and they do with them whatever they want. The same way, if Sadam is bad, then USA decides to give the punishment to the people of Baghdad, and there may be possibility that among the victoms many would have been opponent of Sadam. The mines in Afghanistan which were spread to kill Russians, even today are killing innocent Afghan people. So the same sort of retaliation happened in the USA. It is not fair and USA should think over it. This country full of natural as well as human resources should devote itself to serve the whole humanity on the globe instead it retaliat violently and madly.


Name: saeedfarani - September 12, 2001
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab,     Pakistan
Comments:   I feel sad on such a horrible incident on our planet. Dushman marey tey khushi na kariyey sajnaN vi mar jaNNa, But it is very strange nature or past history of incidents which change general behaviour of the masses. Since last evening I have been watching the response of our people. Uneducated and educated all are giving the same response. It is extremely sad to notice such behaviour. Such confrontation between east and west or between muslims and christians will lead to the most miserable expected 3rd World War. And this time the war will be very very unfortunate for the life on the earth. We, the people who love peace and humanity, should come ahead to counter such extremes on the earth.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - September 11, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Sameer Ji, Thanks God you are fine!!!! What about Bushra Khan, Vikram Singh Sikand, Zak and Ashraf Shahab?


Name: Sameer - September 11, 2001
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   DullaBhatti and Mahmud Fahim: I am fine and not going to die before utilizing all my potential in the service of Punjabi language. How can I leave without reading the summary of Prem Singh's book by DullaBhatti. Actally, I am some 30-40 miles from WTC, NY. Thanks for concerns.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - September 11, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Wishing you all best of luck our dear New Yorkers. May god safe you.... Just send O.K on the forum. You are all dears and nears for us.


Name: DullaBhatti - September 11, 2001
E-mail: DullaBhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   My prayers with our friends in New York tonight. Please let us know you guys are doing allright. We are worried. You know who you are.


Name: Vijay Kapoor - September 10, 2001
E-mail: vkkapoor@hotmail.com
Location: Renton, WA     USA
Comments:   Hello Ladies and Gengtlemen: I have persued "APNA Discussion Forum" for quite some days. It really simulates one's mind and thought and makes one get ideas and thoughts which might not come to one's own mind. I wish that this healthy trend of discussions continues. My idea of this message is about script to be used for writing Punjabi. Ofcourse it goes without doubt that Shahmukhi and Gurmukhi scripts are the best options and a must. There is a catagory of Punjabis (like me) who can neither read nor write Punjabi in any script not by choice but by circumstances. I see no reason that they should be deprived of enjoying the Punjabi literature/poetry. So in my opinion it APNAORG should make every endeavor to put out everything(to the extent possible) in English script as well. This way I am sure followers of Punjabi literature will definetly increase and with passage of time may try to learn Shahmukhi and Gurmukhi scripts. So my humble request is not to deprive Punjabis like me from enjoying Punjabi literature by putting it out in English script. I have seen many web sites for Urdu and Hindi which also transliterate(write in English script) to enable non Urdu/Hindi speakers to enjoys those poems/ghazals. If my request is not considered then we will have no option except listen to Punajbi songs on web. Finally I close this message with Aslamklekum/Satsri Akal/Namaskar to all Punjabis and Punjabi lovers.


Name: Sardar Omer - September 10, 2001
E-mail: omersaddozai@yahoo.com
Location: Houston, Tx     USA
Comments:   A Case for Punjabi. Dar khula hashar azab da Bura Haal hoeya Punjab da!-Bulley Shah Mr Farani Your comments were indeed very well-intentioned, poignant, straightforward and directed to the matter at our hands---the current plight of our beloved Punjabi language. It is indeed a sorry state of affairs to say the least that even after fifty years of independence we Punjabis have not been granted the right to our own langauge so much so that even in the Punjab assembly one can't dare to use it as an oral means of communication much less talk about implementing it as a medium of instruction in elementary schools! The first notion that pops up in ones mind as a natural corollary to the topic at hand is to look around and search for comparative similarities in other aggregrates of Pakistani society at large. Are we the only ones chosen out for such an exclusive treatment that it belies all thought and reason--afterall Punjab comprises one-fourth of Pakistans territorial mass and Punjabis form more than 60% of our motherlands population! I need not answer the above mentioned query as the facts are all there for those who care to dig into the dustbin of time. There are numerous newspapers/journals in Sindhi, Pushto and even Baluchi not to undermine the importance or put it to question and/or in any way to degarde the sacro-sanctity of any of these languages But howcome there has not been a single Punjabi publication worth mentioning to date (my friends inform me there used to be or still is this one Punjabi newspaper 'Zameendar' published from Lahore). How come when using Punjabi we are labelled as being illiterate/crude/obnoxious whereas when peoples from other ethnic backgrounds use their mother tongue nobody even thinks of casting a momentary surprising glance at them for talking in a language other than Urdu. Are we being purposely made to Feel shameful of conversing in our own language so as to systematically eliminate/wipe out any gleam of hope there might be to further the cause of Punjab and Punjabi; as they both go hand in hand. Has it already been fed into our system that if one talks or practices Punjabi they will be subjected to ill-founded bigoted criticism and will be branded as a DHAGGA(people acquainted with Punjab and the dilemma we face know what I am talking about here!). Sincerely speaking Punjabi a language spoken by more or less sixty million people around the globe and the Oldest of Indo-Aryan languages has had the harsh fortune of being subjugated from time one. First it was the Moghuls who saw in Punjabi a threat to their vicious and need i say evil domain which was heavily tied to the (laggan) or the tax that they recived from the local Zameendars therefore by impoSing Urdu a language that originated in Bengal during the British era(and is in no way even remoTely comparable to Punjabi in terms of the laters richness of tradition and abundance of 'Original' poetry though probably not prose) upon the native Punjabi they saw to it that the Punjabis were made foriegners in their own land. Pyschologically they were forced to 'Feel' inferior to their Urdu speaking local administrators who were smuggled in from various parts of the British India thus paving the way for a later denegenration of Punjabi based upon the very same arguement of it being an unschooled, perfunctory langauge relative to Urdu. Also the Punjabi bourgeois class having being left with no option but to compete with Urdu at all levels of socio-political existence abandoned their own language in favor of the one that could earn them bread and better thence providing them not only with everyday sustenance but also a preconceived sense of social superiority became further alienated from their very roots. As for the feudals of Punjab it would be all but rote to state that the only cause they have contrived towards in Punjab is to keep their hapless junta fluttering in the clutches of ignorance and poverty to provide them with ample oppurtunity in promoting their henious designs of cashing out on the language and culture of their very subjects. The feudal class of Punjab has traditionally only been interested in class exploitation at the expense of whatever may come forth be it the language or the ever so innocent people--it will do us well to keep in mind that it was this very strata of the Punjabi society that laid the foundation of betryaing their language by vouching in favor of Urdu to 'earn their lively hood' and to stand tall amongst the puppet masters of the yesteryears thus guiding the way towards a gradual but consistent eraditcation of the native language. One can't help but think that the ruling establishment has somehow been so afraid/scared of Punjabi that it bluntly refuses to acknowledge it as the official language of the province! Infact there have been talks going on in the corridoors of power about splitting Punjab along LINGUISTIC lines and the different Dialects of Punjabi have been brought forth as different LAnguages namely Potohari(The Potohar Pleatu stretching from Islamabad to Jehlum) and Seriaki ( District Multan and the adjoining areas). The real threat is not Punjabi in itself brethren: its the pride,self-recogniton and a sense of unmatched uniqueness that comes along with it which in other words may be cicurmscribed by the word 'Punjabiat' that has been haunting the minds of our buearucrats and politicians alike. We have all seen many a failed attempts to sever BAluchistan from the mainland PAkistan or for that matter demands for the formation of a Sindhu Desh and Pakhtunistan and they have all been dealt with in a manner befitting such tactics of political black-mailing to enhance personal agendas pinned upon greed and lust for power. However the specter of a future 'Punjabistan' hangs vivid and alive in the backdoors of the minds of our ruling elite in face of the continued oppression and pillage of Punjab/Punjabis right from the very beginning-creation of PAkistan. It is but for this reason that the ruling class is reluctant and will Always remain to be belligerent to grant Punjabi and with that Punjabis and Punjab the status they duly deserve and are getting ever impatient to strive towards. It certainly would augur well for the integrity of Pakistan that instead of crushing and stifling a peoples language(and that too a people who have always been ever so ready to shed their blood for the motherland and form more than Seventy percent of the national armed forces by certain limited estimates though I am positive its a notch above it)the administrators should step up to immediately redress the just grievances for the step-mother conduct carried out by its prepetrators against Punjabi.


Name: DullaBhatti - September 10, 2001
E-mail: DullaBhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   I am in the middle of reading "Punjab, Punjabi te Punjabiyat" - a Case for Punjab, Punjabi language and culture, by Prof Pritam Singh and could not wait to tell you that this book exists. It is published only in Gurmukhi script right now and anyone who can read, should read it. Prof Pritam Singh is in his 80's and have written extensively on this subject..his knowledge about the Punjabi culture and history is un-matched along with his zeal to see Punjabi language and culture prosper on both sides of the border.


Name: Sameer - September 10, 2001
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Here is a letter by yours truly, published in The Nation, Lahore on September 8, 2001 Punjabi language It is heartening to see at least one sane voice in support of Punjabi ('Punjabi Language and district governments' by Prof Aziz-ud-Din Ahmed, August 23). It is about time native and ethnic languages be recognised as official languages and not looked upon disdainfully by the establishment. Education in Punjabi medium for Punjabis is an urgent need. It is a win-win situation for Pakistan by increasing the literacy level through regional languages. Despite all the hoopla about Punjabi domination, the most visible part of Punjabi culture, the language, has not been treated fairly. It will be worthwhile for the government to take note of increased awareness of Punjabiat among diaspora Punjabis from Pakistan. Many US and Canadian schools are offering Punjabi as a second language to diaspora Punjabis while at home it is treated like a step-language. The culturally aware diaspora Punjabis are becoming vocal about the treatment of Punjabi in Pakistan. I wish to see more articles on this topic by concerned and proud Punjabis.-J.B. SAMEER, New York, USA. via e-mail, September 2.


Name: Sameer - September 10, 2001
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   [Your comments on unity vunity were very amusing. Now, please take it easy; do not take it to your heart. By the way, some people can connect to each other based on intellect; some can do so based on cultural affiliations; some can do so based on origin; some may have the affinity due to common interests and some may have that because of religious bent - who is right and who is wrong is a very relative thing.......... but our aql and fehm should never leave us.] In theory, all the things you mentioned, Zahra, should unite us but practically all these things are actually dividing us in Pakistan. Considering the never ending sectarian vilence, unhappiness among different provinces over power sharing etc are what we are experiencing for quite some time now. In Pakistan, aql or fehm leaves us more often in matters of belief-religion, because belief overrides all aql and fehm, common sense as well as rule of law. This is what Saeed Farani is ciritical of, based on his first hand experience. A simple comparison of Urdu and English press in Pakistan clearly suggest a strong linkage between Urdu and passion for belief system. Urdu is a beautiful language with tremendous amount of literature written in it but uunfortunately it is promoted with the backing of ideas that have thus far resulted in more harmful than useful effects, vis-a-vis unity, identity and respect and promotion of native languages. Punjabi language is visibly suppressed in the name of unity behind Urdu that accelerated the discontent of Bengalis in the past with the result of break down of unity. Being absolutely loyal to Pakistan, I fear that passionate and forced Urdu imposition will further erode our unity same way as I believe that imposition of more Islamic laws in Pakistan hurt us in all spheres of rational interests. India tried imposition of Hindi in the past but opted for native languages. It did not hurt the unity of the union. I believe Punjabi in Punjab, Sindhi for Sindhi speaking and so on will fortify our unity by eliminating an unnecessary bone of contention. Listening to Saeed Farani's point of view is better for unity than rejecting it out of hand. He is supporting Punjabi language passionately and wants changes in Pakistan through lawful and peaceful means.


Name: Zahra - September 09, 2001
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Mohtaram Saeed Farani:

I am further amused by your post. You are becoming bila'wajeh too sensitive :) I never intended to hurt your feelings. I have great respect for people who are what they write; and write what they feel. So, no arguments on that. I somehow cannot imagine Punjabi dying at all as long as the natives are alive, healthy and are nourishing their hearts and minds with the stories of their land. So, please tone it down a little bit. It sounds to me as if a state of emergency is being declared. Long Live Punjab [Naa'ra] [Amen]! Laiken, you need to realize that in order for the natives to survive and stay healthy in mind and body they need many other things aside from the language - economic revolution. In fact, as that's your subject: Could you please tell me why countries would determine the prosperity of their people by the money factor? Why not by the education factor? Should not education be the determining factor for the masses' progression and success? This question just came to my mind a few days back. I have a few answers, but they are possibilities and not the RIGHT ANSWER. I want to learn the appropriate reason; so please share your perspective.

On Love and Attachment: I would like to give an example here that we all have a different kind of love for our land and our origin. If you look at kids' love for their parents - it has different ways and degree. Some stay with the parents throughout their lives; some do not but still have a strong and great bondage. Some live in hostels/boarding schools but their love and attachment never lessens. I see the natives as kids and the land as parents. Just like the kids, all the natives cannot think alike. I take great pride when I come across a Punjabi Female, who went ahead and did well in her education and personal life than anything else. Well, if she is not fluent in Punjabi that won't be the determining factor. I am not going to condone her on that. You may have other things that you would pay attention to. I guess the common factor is people from our origin. One may want to emphasize on their well-being and prosperity, whereas the other may want to make sure that they are aware of all the aspects of our culture - fine. All kids of our land will think and act differently, as long as it is for the benefit of the natives WELL AND GOOD! Gul Khatam! End-Of-Discussion! Kindly realize that there are many factors that need to be looked into aside from language. But if that's your forte, stick to it. No one can dare to move you from your stance.
Best Wishes.


Name: Saeed Farani - September 09, 2001
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Comments:   Madam Zahra, Please try to understand what I mean. My sympathy is with the human beings not with the ...... who ....this land. I can't respect any enemy of humanity. Who so ever is enemy of my language is the enemy of humanity. Is it wrong? Everyday, I see my language dying in front of my eyes. Every day I get wounds on my body. It seems as I am carrying the wounded near to death body of my language or my nation and you burst on me. Keep on. You are free to write anything too. God bless you.


Name: Zahra - September 08, 2001
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Sir Farani: Interesting Post :) Your comments on unity vunity were very amusing. Now, please take it easy; do not take it to your heart. By the way, some people can connect to each other based on intellect; some can do so based on cultural affiliations; some can do so based on origin; some may have the affinity due to common interests and some may have that because of religious bent - who is right and who is wrong is a very relative thing. I somehow feel the educated class should rise above these matters; preserving their individuality and native identity. Some points are clear as mud and you do not need to go and tell all and sundry regarding your meaning and intent. I think you haev a strong tendency to repeat your bataen ghumma phiraa kae'. Our likes and dislikes certainly vary, but our aql and fehm should never leave us.

By the way, as this site does not have the threads for each and every post therefore a writer/participant can pick and choose the post and thought that he/she wanted to respond to. No hard and fast rule that everyone should participate in the same discussion or point that was being raised by XYZ. This is not a scene of a Punchayat where everyone would look into a few buraa boorhaas and comply. Just my thought.
Sukhinder:
I read somewhere about your question on Movies in Pakistan. Unfortunately, our film-industry has not developed the taste and sense to produce sensible stuff and can be easily categorized as plain trash. Sorry, to reveal the truth but that's the best I could state. Our dramas both in Urdu,Punjabi and Pushto depict something close to the culture and are excellent productions; but the film industry is nothing but what I identified earlier. So, please do not waste your time even looking for something in that direction. A sincere advice.

Regards


Name: Jatender - September 07, 2001
E-mail: customerservices@gifts2punjab.com
My URL: http://www.gifts2punjab.com
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   Hi, Please take out some time to check out our brand new website www.gifts2punjab.com which we will be launching on September 25, 2001. It's the first shopping website dedicated to Punjab and Punjabi's and allows you to send gifts to any Pind (village), Town or City in Punjab. We have products including Indian Sweets, Luggage, Flowers, Books, Decoration Pieces and even Religious Idols. For now, please register with the site and we will keep you up to date on our great gift ideas! I look forward to your feedback...spread the word!! Regards, Jatender


Name: Saeed Farani - September 06, 2001
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Comments:   Waris Shah said (particular to the punjabies becuase they don't hide their pleasures), "Waris Shah lukayey khalq koloN, bhawayN apna ee guR khayey jee." And Dr. Laeeq Babree also said, "KhushiyaaN dee hanDi kaj key rakhyey, uDdey kaaN dee nazar naaN laggey." Punjab was open ever, like its open fields (khulyaaN khetaaN dee dhartee) and now this our site "apnaorg.com" is also open, so many kaaN also poke their noses (beaks or chunjaaN) without understanding the coherence. It shows their ignorance and secondly they may have unfortunately satanic mind. Sameer jee tried to answer such people who are called "Teesrey lok" who according to our great beloved Punjabi poet Ustad Daman as Sardar Omar Saddozai quoted, " Eh gal ey maaN tey putraaN dee, koee teesra vich keyoN auNda ey?" ik tey ik yaraaN, teeja ralya, juggaa galya. The great tragedy of this land where we live is the miserable condition in every sector today because these "teesra lok" are controling the seat of titanic. We must be consious these "teesra lok" who have in their hand the most dangerous weapon, "the religion" which they can use whenever and whereever. They cannot understand and they also don't want to understand that the most important affair on the earth or in the universe is the human beings and their respectful living. None has a right to exploit them on the name of any nazreeya veeya and unity voonity. 93% population of this country has being exploited since its partition so badly on the name of so called west-oriented nazreeya. Their languages, land and lives are hijacked and now if due to some inner and more outer pressures these shakles of slavery are being broken then these teesra lok cetainly feel trouble. It is a great pity on such negative minds that where they live they hate land, languages and people. Punjabio keep in mind the saying of great darvaish poet, Kehey Hussain Faqeer SaeeN da takht naaN mildey maNgey.


Name: Pammi - September 05, 2001
E-mail: formymommy@hotmail.com
Location: Lucknow, up     India
Comments:   meri ma di ik saheli si gurdspur wich.sun 41 -42 di gal hai usda naam si Shamim te usde abba hajur da naam si Mr. sheikh Abdul Aziz.oh magistrate san.koi vi ohna bare kuch vi jankari rakhda hove tan meherbani karke daso tanke mai apni ma nu usdi vichardi saheli naal mila sakan.meri ma ajkal seattle wich mere bhara kol rehndi hai.shukria.


Name: Pammi - September 05, 2001
E-mail: formymommy@hotmail.com
Location: Lucknow, U P     India
Comments:   very good site.internet te takran mardian mil gayi.manu yakeen nahi aunda ki hali vi punjabi de ane piyare han.


Name: Sardar Omer Saddozai - September 05, 2001
E-mail: omersaddozai@yahoo.com
Location: Houston , Texas      USA
Comments:   Punjabi Nama(I) by Ustad Daman Athey boli Punjabi e boli jaye gi! Urdu vich kitaban vich than di rahey gi Edha put han edhey toon dudh mangda Meri bhuk edhi chaati tan di rahey gi Edhey lakh hareef paye hovan peeda Din badin edhi shakal bandi rahey gi Odhoon tak Punjabi tey nahi mardi JAdhon tak Punjaban koi jandi rahey gi! Edhey lakh hareef paye hovan peeda Din badin edhi shakal bandi rahey gi Mein Punjabi Punjab da rehan vala Sada khair Punjabi di mangda han Moti kisey sohagan di nath da han Tukra kisey Punjaban di vang da han Jadoon kadey Punjabi di gal karna phan phan karda phoon phoon aunda Toon Punjabi Punjabi ki layi hoyi ey chan chan karda choon choon aunda Oh bolda bolda turi jaunda khabrey merey bulhaan nu seyo jaunda EH GAL EY MAAN TEY PUTRAN DI KOI TESRA VICH KEYON AUNDA?? PUNJAB mera raye vasda!


Name: Prem Singh Kahlon - September 05, 2001
E-mail: Pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Location: Nashville, tn     USA
Comments:   Dear Imran Ji, I forgot to give you the addresses to find Punjabi Dictionaries in my earliar e-mail to you.I know it will be much cheaper to buy from Pakistan or India,but if you want from internet,you can go to Amazon.com which lists 16 titles of Punjabi to english,English to Punjabi, also in Roman,Punjabi-Persian and other combinations. They have used editions also for $7 upward.Barnes & Nobel.com list several Punjabi dictionaries.Please let me know if I can help.Regards,Prem


Name: IMRAN - September 04, 2001
E-mail: darwaish_p@hotmail.com
Location: PUNJAB,      PAKISTAN
Comments:   salam araz kardha haan tay umeed kardha haan ke saday punjabi zubaan day sanjhay rishtay awaan walay dinnaan which hoor mazboot hosan .punjabi jithay ve jaway oss day ander apne zuban tay punjab kadde naheen bolhda. Dill day saray dukhray tay hassay punjabi zuban which he boldha hay. main barha jahil bandha haan main ess site banawaan waleyaan noon ve likheya hay tay tuhanu ve minat kardha haan k jay kissay noonh punjabi dictionary day baray kohe site patta hay tay menu zaror dasna. Shala saray kush rawo hasday wasday rawoo Allah Bailee imran


Name: SUKHINDER - September 04, 2001
E-mail: poet_sukhinder@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.geocities.com/poet_sukhinder
Location: Toronto, ON     Canada
Comments:   Hello Friends: It is interesting to read the views of Vasse Azeme from Lahore, Pakistan. He talks to divide Punjabi language into Hindu Punjabi, Muslim Punjabi, Sikh Punjabi , Christian Punjabi and what not? People are now talking of the global village. But our friend Vasse Azeme is still living in a very small world. I hope, he will grow up with some time and start thinking the Punjabis around the globe as one big community. With best wishes, Sukhinder Director: Knowledge Eye E-mail: poet_sukhinder@hotmail.com


Name: Sameer - September 03, 2001
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Every language starts as a boli. Over time boli develops grammer, vocabulaory and written literature to become a language. The written tradition and vocabulary of distinct Punjabi, seperated from previous bolis goes back to at least 800 years and Baba Farid is generally accepted as first literary Punjabi writer.It is absolutely mistaken to think of Punjabi now as a boli after the last 500 years of literature in Punjabi in all three scripts. It has been working as official language in Indian Punjab without any problem. Why it can not run in Pakistani Punjab? ..........It is not Punjabi which is being promoted by putting down Urdu. Interest in Urdu is declining because of English among the educated classes because of practical requirements of the job market. Forcefully supporting Urdu at official level in Pakistan has solved nothing. It sowed the seeds of Bengali discontentment and still different provinces of Pakistan are nowhere close to achieving a harmonious understanding among different ethnic groups. It has not been helpful in increasing literacy level in Pakistan. It has become a tool in the hands of a group of people in Pakistan that continue to exploit resources through promoting one-of-everything is the best solution of Pakistan's problems........Here people are ready to forget and accept the centuries of putting down Punjabi, first by Persian and then by Urdu but can not stand few individuals who are expressing their honest opinions about the status of Punjabi language and how it can be promted. A promotion of Punjabi, Sindhi or any other language will undoubtedly will come at the expense of the one before. Yes, teaching basic education in Punjabi will cut into the importance of Urdu in Punjab. Sindhis have done it in 1972-73 and nothing bad happened to Pakistan. Punjabis can do it also without hurting the interests of Pakistan..........one should not talk about promotion of Punjabi language if they are unwilling to decrease the influence of Urdu in Punjab. They should better support Urdu or status quo.......People must understand that both the importance of English in the job market and interest in promoting Punjabi are a substitutioin and not innovation. Innovations creates their own new space, substitution replaces the one before. The language being replaced can not be happy with it. So what is the solution? Should all Punjabis put their head buried in the sand and become indifferent to their motherland, mother culture, pride in ethnicity? Should Muslim Punjabis throw away their collection of Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan's Punjabi songs? Should they teach their children that Punjabi is an unsophisticated language because its speakers were not often victorious in history? How much importance is given to things considered as extension of religion knowing to well that Punjabi is not an anti-Islam and Urdu a pro-Islam languages? If religions depend on a particular language, then they are regional, ethno-centric and not neutral with respect to other languages.....Please keep religion and Indo-Pak politics out of it. That is like opening another can of worms!!!!........It is Pakistani Urdu supporters who put down Punjabi as pro-India, Punjabi supporting Pakistanis do not agree with their interpretation. Punjabis Should decide the future of Punjabi language in Punjab ad not those whose hearts and minds ave already accepted the superiority of Urdu language. Do these people think that Muslim Laeague could win in Punjab, Sindh and NWFP in 1946 for telling people the superiority of Urdu language? Before 1946, they always talked about equal status for all cultures of Muslim majority provinces. They would have been wiped out in Bengal in 1946, were they told the sermons of Qazi and Hussain.


Name: Majid Qazi - September 03, 2001
E-mail: majid@istar.ca
Comments:   Sab toon pehli gul ah way keh mein Punjabi aan tay Punjabi hoon tay fakhar karna. But, besides being Punjabi I am a Pakistani and would never like to create new controversies about my national language i.e. Urdu. Whatever is its background, it has an integrating role in our nation and because of this I would never like to undermine it or weaken it just to promote Punjabi. Of course my national interests are more important than my regional interests. As far as the script is concerned, I would say that the persian or arabic script is perfect for Punjabi. Windows in Arabic is commonly available operating system and there are many wordprocessing, database and spreadsheet applications for arabic or persian scripts. So there should be no problem if we continue to use Arabic / Persian script for Punjabi.


Name: Tahir Hussain - September 03, 2001
E-mail: teehussain@juno.com
Comments:   Any attempt to promote a language or culture by bashing supposed "invaders" (peoples, languages and cultures), is essentionally political in nature. Despite the proclamations of this websites' organizers for it to be "non-religiuos and non-political", it is exactly that: political and religious to its foundation. This discussion forum is nothing more than another opportunity for the Indian propoganda machine to take shots at the foundation of Pakistan, its religion and URDU. As a Pakistani born American, I am deeply interested in all languages spoken in Pakistan; I like the little punjabi literature I have been exposed to. I am not interested, however, in any forum that believes that Punjabi could be promoted by taking pot-shots at Urdu and India's muslim rulers. Muslim rule, as well as the British, is the history of Indian Sub-continet. Despite the cynical attempts of the current rulers of India the history cannot be changed. Tahir.


Name: Tahir Hussain - September 03, 2001
E-mail: teehussain@juno.com
Comments:   Any attempt to promote a language or culture by bashing supposed "invaders" (peoples, languages and cultures), is essentionally political in nature. Despite the proclamations of this websites' organizers for it to be "non-religiuos and non-political", it is exactly that: political and religious to its foundation. This discussion forum is nothing more than another opportunity for the Indian propoganda machine to take shots at the foundation of Pakistan, its religion and URDU. As a Pakistani born American, I am deeply interested in all languages spoken in Pakistan; I like the little punjabi literature I have been exposed to. I am not interested, however, in any forum that believes that Punjabi could be promoted by taking pot-shots at Urdu and India's muslim rulers. Muslim rule, as well as the British, is the history of Indian Sub-continet. Despite the cynical attempts of the current rulers of India the history cannot be changed. Tahir.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - September 03, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   vasse: Don't under estimate your language and culture. It is more ancient, more strong and more valued than urdu in every respect. In fact there is no comparison between these two. Urdu is nothing but the communicative language devaloped for the the army persons of different regions. Urdu is a Turkish Word means Lashkar. It was mostly devaloped by Britishers and East India Company. Historically its devalopment was started from Bengal by Britishers. Firstly just translations of the literature and writing down the articles to understand the people of india for the ICS officers. This language played a major role in widening the gap between the local people and made the invaders hands more strong. Most of the classic urdu literature is the translation of the persian literature. Even Ghalib's famous poetry has very deep shades of Baidil. Most of the urdu poets presented Western philosophy and nothing else. Their symbols and even the composition standards are all imported. It is a tragedy with urdu that it has no soil and it is searching for it. Fortunately or unfortunately Punjab is giving it the oppertunity, not NWFP or Sindh or Baluchistan. We can accept urdu as a communication medium but not the national language. Punjabi is not a boli, its the one of the most powerful, communicative and versatile language of the world. Unfortunately it has sons like me and you.


Name: ASH - September 03, 2001
E-mail: aslamash@hotmail.com
Location: MANCHESTER,      UK
Comments:   I am a British born Pakistani Punjabi. I am a supporter of the Punjabi language and love it. Punjabi as you may know is a language that orinates from Sanskrit, just like its sister languages ie Gujerati, Sindhi, Hindi, Bangla Now Vasse Azeme put forward the argument that the East Punjabis speak too much of a Sanskritized Punjabi and write in a Sanskrit script. Well whats the problem? Why should Punjabi be written in Arabic/Persian script anyway? Punjabi originates from Sanskrit, not Arabic or Farsi. Therefore it makes much more sense to write the language in a Sanskrit based script. The Arabic words in particular don't really sound natural when being spoken with Punjabi. For example words like Mustaqbil and ehtesaab are vastly different from normal Punjabi words. Also it may surprise you to know two things: 1) Urdu is not even really a lanugage as such, it is simply an Arabified version of Hindi. 2) Punjabi is far far closer to Hindi than it is to Urdu Look at the words for example Mums sister Punjabi-Maasi Hindi- Mausi Urdu- Khala Mums brother Punjabi-Maama Hindi-Maama Urdu Maamu Maama's wife Punjabi-Maami Hindi-Maami Urdu-Mumani Father's sister Punjabi-Pooa Hindi-Bhua Urdu-Phuppi Wedding Punjabi-Wiyah Hindi-Bhiyah Urdu-Shaadi Under Punjabi-Thalley Hindi-Taley Urdu-Neechey


Name: Vassé Azeme - September 03, 2001
E-mail: vasseazeme@hotmail.com
Location: Lahore,      Pakistan
Comments:   As for Punjabi conferences are concerned, I am very much concerned when People from "Other" Punjab are included.Even on the basis of "boli" the people of Pakistani Punjab can be considered as one people .And Non-muslim Punjabis cannot be included in it. religion does Play role here also. How? I tell you.Indian Punjabi is very much Sanskritized,and use most of such words,which people of Pakistani punjab haven't even heard.Why they have put Sanskrit words into their boli and taken out the persian and arabic words which have got in by sheer evolution not because of religous considerations.Also their sript looks more like other Indian language scripts and different from Arabic script,which is virtually used by all Pakistani regional languages.So there is a religous consideration on their part and thus they are different Punjabis than us.They are openly following Hindu India in defiance of the original langauge requirements.So if they think to make their language different from the original language,hust to differentiate from muslim Punjabis,how can they and us be considered as same people. I wish all of us consider these hardcore facts.And would not flow in blind love for anything which might hurt our basic reason of existence:i.e., Our Ideology. Thanx


Name: Vassé Azeme - September 03, 2001
E-mail: Vasseazeme@hotmail.com
Location: Lahore,      Pakistan
Comments:   My parents are Punjabis.But I think myself only as Pakistani.Urdu has been adapted in Pakistani Punjab because its a language,whereas Punjabi is only a 'boli' not a language.For something to be called a language ,it requires a separate script of its own, the literature since the times of its inception,a well organized rules of grammar and very importantly a 'dictionary'.All of which are missing in case of Punjabi. So Urdu was destined to take place of Punjabi in Pakistani Punjab as it contained all these things and as people need a 'language' to express themselves fully,which Punjabi Boli just couldn't provide.Now if all these are forcefully introduced by some ardent lovers of the 'boli',it will be artificial only.As these things are evoluted not invented.The fate of Punjabi is just because of the innate characteristics a 'boli' could have. As for Punjabi conferences are concerned, I am very much concerned when People from


Name: Mansoor Gulshan - September 02, 2001
E-mail: m_n_22038@yahoo.com
My URL: http://www.mansoorgulshan.8k.com
Location: Peshawar, NWFP     Pakistan
Comments:   Hello Dear This is a very cool web site. Plz try for more good. Thanks! Mansoor Gulshan.


Name: Zeeshan Ghayur - September 02, 2001
E-mail: zeeshan@ghayur.every1.net
My URL: http://www.zeeshanghayur.bizhosting.com
Location: Singapore, Singapore     Singapore
Comments:   Salaam & Hello. Although I do not write my poems, songs, and stanzas in the Punjabi Language; but am very interested in it. I am a student of arts who also try to write down his random feelings in the shape of poetry. I am soon going to publish my book in a year or two. But that one would be in the English Language and/or the Urdu Language. This is really a great web site. Keep up the hard work. Salaam & Hello.


Name: Mohamad Khan - August 29, 2001
E-mail: mohamadkhan@hotmail.com
Comments:   and sorry about the italics... ;)


Name: Mohamad Khan - August 29, 2001
E-mail: mohamadkhan@hotmail.com
Comments:   Suman ji, i apologize as well for misunderstanding your words. when you explain it in that way, your remark makes a lot of sense...in fact, i'll go right back and contradict what i said before: you're right, we do use English for the sake of conveying our own thoughts rather than for the sake of others, and in that sense, i am selfish, as is anyone else who uses English instead of (or even at the expense of) their mother tongue. case in point: South Asian authors who write novels in English. the phenomenon of South Asians writing in English has become so common that these authors have developed a particular philosophy and theory of "Indo-Anglianism", and one of the traits that binds many of them together is their peculiar way of writing prose: they dream up each sentence in their own mother tongues, and mentally translate it in order to put it onto the page. the question is, why take that extra step of translating? why not simply be true to the self and to the mother tongue? of course, they are driven by the desire for more money, notoriety, status, influence, etc. this is quite understandable in a sense, but at the same time, it is selfish in a very real way.

that's why people like Kenyan writer Ngug W'Thiongo fascinate me so much. Ngug, who holds a degree in English from a British university, is an outspoken opponent of linguistic imperialism, in particular that of English in Kenya. his Decolonizing the Mind: The Politics of Language is a daring and courageous piece of work, but what's particularly romantic about it is that it was the last book he planned to write in English; following Decolonizing the Mind, he vowed to write all of his fiction and non-fiction in Gikuyu and Kiswahili. When the Kenyan government exiled him, this vow meant that much of his livelihood was at stake--nevertheless, he still stands staunchly by it. In his book of essays Imaginary Homelands Salman Rushdie talks about the time he was at a conference of "post-colonialist" writers in Sweden, and Ngug was one of the company. when Ngug's turn came to speak, he delivered his oratory in Gikuyu, which no one there understood. luckily, he had a translator...who was translating his words from Gikuyu into Swedish, leaving the rest of the party, as Rushdie puts it, "bemused". (of course, Rushdie, my childhood hero, is no champion of South Asian languages; indeed, he's turned into quite a sell-out himself.) But that gesture of sacrificing money, power and influence for the sake of your people and their language, even on an individual level, seems very noble, chivalrous, and selfless to me.

koi gall nahin; jadon oh lughat mil ju gi taan main zuroor panjabi'ch hi gappaan maaraanga. Suman, the project that you describe sounds too good to be true, and if you're a part of it, you have my utmost respect. not many would go to such pains to preserve plurality...hopefully time and technology will make these things easier. the only thing i fear is an eclipse in favour of Roman. as for Roman equaling secularism, i don't quite follow the idea that "if one is adamant about using any one script exclusively, then one cannot be secular." secularism is a broad enough category to admit plenty of people who believe in the superiority of a particular script; secularism in itself does not eliminate prejudice. secularism is not a simple creature to classify.


Name: Saeed Farani - August 29, 2001
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Dear Safir Ji, I read the article "Punjabi language and district governments" written by Mr. Aziz-ul-din Ahmad. It is worth reading article. Try to publish such things in the local Pakistani journals in USA. Mr. Arif Nizami is quite different person than her uncle Majid Nizami. Mr. Arif is open minded person and his general behaviour is very generous. There is another good column by Mr. Hasan Nisar in the Daily Jang, 29th August, 2001. Try to include it also. The heading of the column is "Kee jaana meyN kaon" on Bulhey Shah. These days we have URS of Bulhey Shah in Qasoor. All the best wishes to all. Mr. Prem Kahlon jee, I could not receive your articles. Thanks for sending.


Name: suman - August 28, 2001
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   Mohamad ji. First of all.. I certainly did not mean to make any personal or sarcastic remark and do apologize that my choice of words led to such a mis-communication. In fact you have stated my meaning yourself in the first paragraph of your reply. In that sense, when we use English or the Rom script we do so not for the sake of the others but to convey our own thoughts and because WE seek the 'jawaab' or the reponse. What good is an idea thrown to the wind, no ear or mind to catch it?....Re. a few of your other points. It is not I, or Saeed ji I am sure, who believes that Gurmukhi=Sikhism, Shahmukhi=Islam or Devnagri=Hinduism. Rather, the sad question is 'Do you believe that it is not percieved to be so?' It seems to me that without secular mediation punjabi will factionalize. It already has, to some extent. My attitudes and views are exactly similar to yours but I believe that a 'non-denominational' script, at least at the present time, will bring in readers and enthusiasts who do not carry old burdens and in fact have the idealism that you project....As a small part of a large group, I have been involved in a project to translate Punjabi, Urdu and Persian poetry (mostly mystic) into English. The goal is to have Gur, Shah, Dev, plus transliteration, plus translation. Some job! But it is the only way to cover, as much as is possible, anyone, and everyone, who wishes to read, as well as understand, this body of material....Your comment re. Rom=Secularism is a most interesting one. The first thought that comes to mind is that if one is adamant about using any one script exclusively, then one cannot be secular.Therefore does the opposite hold? Perhaps it is not that Rom=Sec but that those willing to use the Roman script as well, are likely to hold secular views.


Name: Mohamad Khan - August 27, 2001
E-mail: mohamadkhan@hotmail.com
Comments:   Suman ji, of course i am aware of the irony of my writing in English, par jadon main Urdu ya Punjabi wich likhan diyaan koshishaan karda waan, mainun jawaabaan katt hi milde ne, te loki samajhde ne ke main jhoot bolda waan jadon main kehnda ke Angrezi meri pehli zubaan ae. fer mainun munaafiq samajh kar shayad oh apne kanaan nun bilkul band karde ne. agar tussi chaunde ho ke main sirf Punjabi/Urdu wich gall karaan, taan mainun bataaween te main eewein karaangaa. the very fact that i'm a university English major--and an admirer of the beauty of the English language--and yet i'm decrying the use of English, is quite ironic, but it is more complex than you make it out to be.

i respect your opinions, but i beg you not to start stooping to a personal level by saying that I am not doing what i do for the "'community' as you put it, but for yourself"; perhaps i misunderstand you, but that is a rather biting remark, implying selfishness on my part. my doing this just for my own self would make little sense; my own life would be much easier without the complication of the punjabi language--though much poorer. i don't pretend to be selfless, but please, let's just keep up a rational debate.

in fact, i agree with you to some extent! ;) using the Roman script is not entirely harmful if one adds the stipulation (as you have) that it must be used "in parallel with the other three". i've already noted that Roman script is beneficial for two reasons; 1) for use on the internet, and 2) to bridge the gap between Shahmukhi and Gurmukhi. so, temporarily, i agree, its use is not only helpful--it is absolutely necessary to keep the language alive.

what i'm arguing against is a slack espousal of Roman script, without any regard for Shahmukhi, Gurmukhi or Devanagari. we can use Roman script now, because we are forced to, but at the same time, we should support research into implementation of South Asian scripts on the internet. Roman script can never be an omnipotent elixir vitae, but it can be a temporary aid. the implementation of Shahmukhi is a complex issue, but Gurmukhi and Devanagari fonts are well-suited to the web. so, in the case of these two scripts, the fact that Gurmukhi and Devanagari-based sites have not taken the web by storm is not a result of their unsuitability; it is due to the laziness of web designers and their addiction to the Roman script.

i disagree fundamentally with the way that you look at religion and the script. what you're saying, as i understand it, is that Gurmukhi=Sikhism, Shahmukhi=Islam, and Devanagari=Hinduism, while Roman=Secularism, and secularism will solve all your problems. here's my background: i'm nominally a Muslim, and proud of that religious identity, but spiritually, you could call me Hindu, Muslim, Sikh or whatever you wanted, really. basically, i don't believe in spiritual factionalism, and so if all forms of spirituality are one, the need for secularism is eliminated. when i was younger, i was an atheistic secularist, but i began to read the Bhagavad Gita and the Upanishads, and through Hinduism i regained my belief in God and in spirituality. i would have been a Hindu or a Sikh by now, but i discovered Tasawwuf and realized that the Sufis were teaching precisely the same lessons. still, i hold Hinduism and Sikhism in great reverence, and i would never hesitate to worship at a mandir or gurdwaara.

autobiographies aside (sorry), my point is this: the Upanishads, Rumi's Masnavi, and the Guru Granth Sahib all contain the same essential spiritual message, despite being associated with different religious traditions. in the same way, Devanagari, Shahmukhi and Gurmukhi are equal vehicles for the same language. if we can harbour tolerance for all three religions in our hearts, what's the use of secular mediation? if we can tolerate and embrace all three scripts, what's the use of Roman? you say "An inclusive, not an exclusive, solution would be the wiser way to go". but why do the South Asian scripts have to be "exclusive"? in my opinion, the "wiser way to go" would be to promote tolerance, learning, and transcription *between* Gurmukhi, Shahmukhi, and Devanagari, so that users of each script can have pride in their own writing system, and can at the same time enjoy their common language. at a time when even Westerners themselves complain that in the West, "nothing is sacred", why are we in such a rush to desanctify our scripts?


Name: Sameer - August 27, 2001
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Sukhinder: DullaBhatti has already alluded to the problems of finding Pakistani art movies, let alone good ones. I tried google search so that I could respond to you but came out empty. Pakistan makes about 100 feature movies per year and most of the people do not go to theatre to watch them. Instead they rent DVD or VHS of old Pakistani movies or Indian movies in addition to watching TV serials, both from India and Pakistan. They are much more popular than Pakistani movies. Now people have cable and satellite antenna and it is not worth wasting time and money going to theatres. Many theatres have closed down or torm down to make the real estate to good use. Moreover, the APNA followers seem to be passionate with the promotion of language through their own efforts and perhaps not movie goers-just a guess. All I found from google search was repeated reference to a recent book about Pakistani movie industry. It is Pakistan Cinema by Mushtaq Guzdar, published by Oxford Press and available easily from Amazon.com and desistore.com among others. I will keep your interest in mind and if I find anything intersting, I will let you know. Re: Roman Script. I think it is a good idea and it should be persued by people intersted in it. It will stand on its own merit and if people found it useful, it will become popular. Let it evolve naturally. Lets push for Punjabiat and punjabi language before pushing for Roman Script although I am all for it, because it can not hurt the bigger picture. It actually helps in my opinion!!!


Name: suman - August 27, 2001
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   mohamadji. No doubt you observe the irony of the fact that you write your views in english and post your comments in the Roman script. Nor are you doing so for the 'community' as you put it, but for yourself - it is so that your views may be disseminated among the largest number of people possible. Which is the reason for using the Roman script for punjabi - in parallel with the other three. Secondly, Saeedji has touched upon a fundamental and emotional nerve. Gurmukhi is linked with one religion, Shahmukhi with another and Devnagari with a third. An inclusive, not an exclusive, solution would be the wiser way to go.


Name: DullaBhatti - August 27, 2001
E-mail: DullaBhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Sukhinder ji, I think Sameer wrote in his response to you that almost no Art movies(what ever it means. don't all movies have some kind of art?) are made in Pakistan. He also listed some good Punjabi movies made in last 3 years out of which ChooRiyan was made in Pakistan. I have seen this movie and it is good.
In Pakistan the emphasis has been on TV serials many of which were better than many Indian Art movies.


Name: SUKHINDER - August 27, 2001
E-mail: poet_sukhinder@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.geocities.com/poet_sukhinder2000
Location: Toronto, ON     Canada
Comments:   Hello Friends: I was astonished to find out that not even one person of the Pakistani origin has been able to mention the names of the best Pakistani art movies produced in the last 3 years? Is there no art in Pakistan or its citizens have no interest in their own artists and their productions? With best wishes, Sukhinder E-mail: poet_sukhinder@hotmail.com Director: Knowledge Eye


Name: Mohamad Khan - August 27, 2001
E-mail: mohamadkhan@hotmail.com
Comments:   i was thinking more in terms of the Chinese Pin-Yin alphabet, which, like the Roman and Arabic alphabets, is phonetic and requires a limited character set. or what about the Japanese or Korean phonetic alphabets?

as for books of Punjabi shairi with difficult words explained, Faqir Muhammad Faqir's Kulliyaat-e-Bullhe Shah and Heer are excellent in this regard.

Unicode also has an impressive map for Arabic-based fonts, which covers Urdu, Persian, Pashto, Sindhi, Arabic dialects and even Old Malay! however, its triple-ligature system is sadly deficient. in fact, i don't believe infinite ligatures will be feasible until the operating system appears in a fully-supporting version. until then, there are many handsome Arabic single-ligature fonts on the web. in terms of Urdu, most fonts are hideous, with the exception of Shehzad Ashiq Ali's Urdu Khatt-e-Naqsh and Nastaliq. while they have a few bugs, Shehzad's fonts are a hundred times better than other fonts on the web. The altered Shahmukhi font i'm working on is based on his Khatt-e-Naqsh.


Name: SALMAN SALEEM - August 26, 2001
E-mail: salman@geek.com
My URL: http://www.sapclip.com
Location: LAHORE, PU     PAK
Comments:   I just read some comments about the scripts to be used for punjabi.Well, Mr. Khan said that why not to choose the chinese. Well, I think he must first research on this issue that to adapt this language for computer, very special arrangements are to be made. The UNICODE (that has 65,536 characters) is used. while ASCII code (256 characters icluding many characters that can be avoided) is used in general. Why roman script is good? The answer is that it is best for computers. Arabic script is a very beautiful script but there are some problems in computing but some arrangemtns have been made. So, I think this thing needs a very thorugh research. But considering PAKISTAN, I think the same scriping technique should be used. Let gurumukhi and Arabic (or persian) script go along. Any comments are welcomed with open arms, RAB RAKHA, Salman


Name: Salman Saleem - August 26, 2001
E-mail: salman@geek.com
My URL: http://www.sapclip.com
Location: Lahore, PU     Pakistan
Comments:   I think not so many Punjabis (arabic script)can read and write their mother tongue easliy. Also, they would use many words of urdu, arabic, persian that may or may not be a part of PUNJABI but is not the generally used word. I think this can be bridged by publising punjabi poetry (slective one considering this aspect)and providing meaning of difficult words. Even I don't mind to see a URDU translation. Well, I want to now what efforts and endeavours have been made in this regard as I do believe that HIGH THOUGHTS NEED HIGH LANGUAGE. Salman Saleem


Name: Safir Rammah - August 26, 2001
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, VA     USA
Comments:   Courtesy our friend Sameer, I have just posted another article by Prof. Aziz-ud-Din Ahmad “Punjabi Language and the District Governments” that was published in the Nation, Lahore, a couple of days ago. Once again, Prof. Aziz-ud-Din Ahmad presents ‘Punjabi Da Muqqadama’ in a forceful, articulate and convincing way and it is worth reading. http://apnaorg.com/articles/aziznation2.html


Name: Mohamad Khan - August 25, 2001
E-mail: mohamadkhan@hotmail.com
Location: Toronto,      Canada
Comments:   Dulla Bhatti sahib, meri punjabi asl wich ehdi changi nahin haigi, par apne walid te naani ammi ton punjabi sun sun ke shayad thori bahut aa gayi ae menun. magar oh lughat meri lai bari zururi ae. but since the community seems to respond better to Angrezi, i'll be lazy for once and use it.

Saeed sahib, i see what you're trying to say, but i disagree vehemently with the idea of using the Roman script for Punjabi, and here are my arguments:

1. The question of the superiority of a particular script: You noted that the Roman script is a "global one". i agree, but does the fact of its being a global script make it a suitable script for Punjabi? there are many, many languages written in variants of the Arabic script as well, all over the world. Chinese has a huge number of speakers; why not adopt the Chinese system? but, of course, many Pakistanis and Indians believe that the English language and the Roman are superior, and this inferiority complex is undeniably a consequence of British colonialism and American neo-colonialism. the idea that South Asians or any of their languages or cultures are "backward" is also fundamentally flawed, because our society is only "backward" in relation to Western ideas of progress, which are not neccessarily correct. rather than continually comparing ourselves to the West, we should do our utmost to cultivate the good things that we have. believe me, i was born in the West and i've lived here all my life--the West is, in many ways, very "backward" in comparison to India and Pakistan, if you can throw off the Maghribi propaganda that you're eternally fed. read Edward Said's Orientalism, a post-colonialist classic, and perhaps you'll understand.

2. Alienation of surrounding cultures: If a script is to be adopted for the Punjabi language in Pakistan, it should not be adopted with the West in mind; Punjabi is a South Asian language, not a western one, and as such, its script should be developed in such a way that it is conducive to linguistic harmony between Punjabi and other South Asian languages. Indian Punjabi has already done so; the Gurmukhi script is aesthetically beautiful, well-guarded, and fits into the Indian subcontinental jig-saw puzzle very well. Pakistani Punjabi must do the same. adoption of the Roman script would neither be conducive to a good relationship with the Urdu language (Urdu is after all, a sister language to Punjabi, albeit an egotistical one), nor would it help relations with other regional Pakistani languages like Sindhi, Pashto, Hindko, etc.

now, the main advantages of the Roman script are:

1. It can be used easily on the internet. this, however, is changing rapidly, as other scripts demand equal space. the Chinese, Japanese and Korean scripts are beginning to come into their own as internet scripts. an enormous amount of research is currently going into the implementation of the Arabic script, and it is already becoming a force. Gurmukhi and Devanagari are faring worse, it seems, not because of their unsuitability, but because Indians simply aren't paying attention to their own scripts on the net. in fact, Gurmukhi is extremely well-suited to internet use, and if Indian programmers would pay some attention, North Indian scripts could easily be used on the web. there are some beautiful Gurmukhi fonts out there, and a very simple context-sensitivity macro can be written for MS Word which will allow flawless Gurmukhi input. if i have time, and if there is interest, i will create one and distribute it for free. as for Urdu, there are a few devoted individuals such as Tooraj Enayati and Shehzad Ashiq Ali who are working to make it feasible at a low cost, and indeed, once Arabic is properly implemented, Urdu will have few obstacles in its way.

2. It can be used to promote inter-intelligibility between Indian and Pakistani Punjabi speakers. this, however, can be achieved equally well via transliteration software which would convert text from Gurmukhi into Shahmukhi, and from Shahmukhi to Gurmukhi. this is far from a fantastical dream; it would be very simple (albeit time-consuming for one person) to write such a program, and i'm thinking of doing it myself, again, if i have time, and if there is interest.

the reason i'm insane enough to want to write such a program is that i believe it would help strengthen the ties between Indian and Pakistani Punjabis, and it would mean tremendous enrichment for the Pakistani side in particular. in order to write such software, however, the following things would be crucial:

Alteration of the Shahmukhi script. Farsi, Urdu, Pashto and Sindhi are all examples of languages that have taken the Arabic script and altered it to suit their needs. Shahmukhi is currently the only viable option for Punjabi in Pakistan, but it is imperfect. however, with a few changes, not only can Shahmukhi be read easily by all Pakistanis, it can also yield flawless Gurmukhi transliterations via the kind of software i've mentioned. i've already come up with a working script which makes the following improvements on regular Shahmukhi:

a) a letter for cerebral "N" as in "suNo!", already extant in Gurmukhi and even some Shahmukhi publications.

b) a letter for the flapped "L" as in "boLi" and "kaaLaa", which (as i understand) some languages such as Marathi already have, but neither Shahmukhi nor Gurmukhi does.

c) most importantly, a clear system of differentiation between proper diphthongs, short vowels, long vowels, and "majhul" vowels, something which Gurmukhi has, but Urdu does not.

diacritics for tones "na, naaN, nhaa" could also be introduced later. Punjabi is the only existing Indo-Aryan language with tones, and i think that special feature should be enshrined in a new rasmu'l-khatt.

Etymology. I would need to build a database of Punjabi words and their etymologies. more specifically, i need a comprehensive list of Punjabi words with Arabi/Farsi etymologies. this is because of redundant and effectively silent letters in the Shahmukhi script, such as Se/Seen/Suad, Daal/Duad, Te/Toi, Ze/Zaal/Zoi, Ayn, Hamzah, and final He. without an etymological sensitivity, the word "zaraa" would be transliterated from Gurmukhi into Shahmukhi as "ze re alif", when the correct spelling is "zaal re alif". this means that i probably have to input the entire Gurmukhi Punjabi dictionary as well as more than half of the Urdu dictionary into a database. that, of course, would be the time-consuming part. however, such a database would have added benefits, as it could be turned into an electronic lughat/kosha, thesaurus, and rhyming dictionary.

anyhow, if anyone would be interested in seeing such a program come into existence, or if you're curious about what this script i've cobbled together looks like, please let me know. i'm fairly keen on programming this thing, but first i'd like to know if anyone besides myself thinks it would be worth the time and effort.


Name: Zahra - August 25, 2001
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Sir Farani: Thanks for realizing that "I do not have the luxury known as time." Your "tinkchur" provoked me to spend a few minutes.

I read your earlier post with great interest and I am forced to say a few things: I have heard this expression khao peeyo shakkur sae, dunya rakho mukkar sae. I hate it. I do not believe in dunya rakho mukkar sae. I believe that one should know the difference between one's friends and foes; and be able to identify the acquaintences and colleagues; and be able to handle all categories individually(kind of learning the rules of diplomacy). So, one ends up forming different relationships in the course of one's life. My father always told me something that's very much in my system, wherever I have traveled to and whatever project I have worked on - According to Abu, inside every human heart there is some goodness and one should look into finding that. Sometimes, it's very obvious whereas often times it's not - so you need to explore. Sometimes things are very clear: it become very obvious as far as the true picture of a person is concerned.On other occassions, you cannot figure out. I have always prayed to have that sense to be able to determine that "right picture." Personally, I have my strong likes and dislikes as well. But I have met people who I had no clue about or were not even aware of; and they turned out to be gems - based on the lesson I had learnt and also my personal intuitive feelings. People go through different experiences in life and that's how they form opinions and certain mindsets. Not everyone takes out the time to explore a person individually. Most of the times, we have a tendency to categorize people in one category and consider them good or bad. In reality world grows bigger and bigger as you meet more people. You realize that we have human gems in other communities as well and we should acknowledge them. I am saying something that I believed in since a very young age, but I did not practice it 100% till I ran into good people from other communities/countries as well. I am very evasive in this post and I would like to stay that way.

I read the thought on writing a case on Punjabi. I think that case should highlight the role of the language in reference to the land and its people. That's it! Who did what and how it was done is going to distract you from your original cause and purpose. We are very sensitive and emotional people by genes. According to some friends(Non-Punjabis) who are married to Punjabis, we are assertive, aggressive, high on emotions, very sensitive, very sincere, forthright and open. Well, this can be easily taken advantage of as well. Being passionate is one thing, but lacking in tact can be quite killing at times. Well, I lack tact myself; have tried to acquire and I think with time I will do that, inshallah. Somehow, I have a very strong feeling that your views were misread when you raised them. You are very passionate and forthright person, but that may be something important for certain issues in life. For others, you may have to change your approach a little bit. I am not saying that change your values, but I am saying tackle the issue in a different manner. Seedhi Saadhi language, khulli dulli gullan should be stated when one knows one's audience very well. If one doesn't then I would be very careful. I hope you can consider this argument as a stand alone one than a contradiction to the "human goodness aspect" that I have stated earlier.

Kindly take my views in a positive stride. I would hate to see a genuine person being consumed by pessimism or taken for a ride. Yes, we all need to respect and treasure the gem-of-people our land has produced. And it has been blessed in that regard, in spite of all the bads we may hear or see! You can distinguish people from the soil they come from very easily. I believe in that too :)


Sameer JB: Interestingly, I have notice a positive change in your recent posts :) Good One, Mr. JB! I will say ditto to your thoughts. Your argument on TNT was right on the mark. Yes, we are insecure, that probably by accepting, our regional identity completely, we may negate our religious persona or something of that sort. This is plain rubbish! As Pakistan's case is unique, in terms of its existance, that's why there is more emphasis on this TNT thing. I think we have been independent now for 50 plus years and the sense of security in our own identity should prevail than otherwise. Islam never implied that leave your cultural identities and ties and embrace something that the Arabs wore or drank. Muslims all over the world pray in their own garbs than wearing the arabs' dress. Muslims are bound to each other by their common religion but under that they have a unique identity, depending on which part of the world they came from. So, we cannot hide ourselves from that. What I have noticed is that many times the immigrants would not like to accept this thought of regional identity as it strengthens the unity amongst the people from that region and excludes them. This attitude has some hidden insecurities. I am least interested in such insecurities, but I wanted to mention that such groups do exist.

Take Care.


Name: suman - August 25, 2001
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   mohamad khanji. sorry, i misspelled your name. the english-punjabi dictionary by t.graham bailey is very interesting. along with meanings it gives a flavor of the old, rural punjab. another one that i have found very useful is the roman-punjabi-english dictionary by bhai maya singh. the gentleman at nahal books is very knowledgeable and helpful.


Name: suman - August 25, 2001
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   1. saeedji. i can think of one more reason why it makes sense to use the roman script. the more people that can read and be exposed to punjabi literature, the better it will be. why put barriers in front of even a single person who wishes to learn. it makes no sense to say "only i should have access to punjabi because of my religion or nationality or height or weight". there are a number of eminent scholars from around the world who are engaged in romanizing punjabi uniformly (a difficult job, by the way) so there is much to be optimistic about. your love for the language and your sorrow for it is very moving. 2. sameerji, your phrase about 100% made in america punjabiat is terrific! there are many thousands of us. not only that, there are many non punjabi punjys who are truer, more learned and better punjabis than some of our kattar brethren. 3. mahmud khan puts us all to shame. he wrote somewhere that he was twentysomething, practically bacha hai ji. here he is, he's learnt two languages, he's writing away, no arguments about scripts, fiercely focussed on accomplishing 'punjabiat'. shabash, wah wah, jordaar talliyan for him.


Name: d - August 25, 2001
E-mail: d@d.com
Comments:   test

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Name: Saeed Farani - August 25, 2001
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Dear Noorpuri Jee, I know very well the most suitable script for Punjabi is Gurmukhi but it is linked with the religion. So it will not be accepted by Muslim Punjabies. Muslim bangalies can learn bangali script or chinese muslim can learn chinese script and their attachment with Islam does not come under threat. Only Punjabies's Islam comes under threat when they even incline toward Punjabi. You, my dear, talk about Gurmukhi script. Though in Quraan it is written that these (words and photos or anything created by God) are the symbols of Allah. So if arabic language is symbol of Allah then of course Hindi, Gurmukhi or even Sansikrat and Hebrew are also the symbols of Allah because in Islam Rabb is " Rabbul aalmeen". But they have narrowed the God's empire who preach Islam. Secondly, in late 1980s I read one report on the name of our ex-president Ishaq Khan presented by Dr. Jamil Jalibi. It was written in that report to the government, "If you try to promote Punjabi, then there will be danger of spreading Sikhism in Pakistani Punjab." Kar lao gallaaaN. Kithey gal apRa diti ey zaalmaaaN neyN apney mufadaaaN dee khatir." What I suggest that is the roman script for Punjabi the most suitable. As it is used globally by more than fifty known languages. It will also give boost to the Punjabies to jump ahead faster. We are very backward in each and every aspect of life. Rab raakha. Dear Zaki Jee, Sameer jee, Zahra Jee (she is very busy right now and does not have much luxury of time to write) and other contributers, I feel you like members of my family, a family who wants to do something for this the most complexed and troublesome area, believe me more troublesome than even Middle East.


Name: Sameer - August 24, 2001
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Saeed Farani, Javed Zaki and Safir Rammah: It is funny that so many of us have Qauid-e-Azam University connections in one way or another. One important name missing from the list is Prof. Tariq Rehman. He is actually best suited to make a case for Punjabi language in Punjab as well as answering Nurpuri's questions. One of his article is already at APNA page at the bottom. It will be a good idea to add and replace some old articles there. Two days ago, another well-known personality, Aziz-Ud-Din Ahmed had an article in support of Punjabi language schooling in Punjab. That article can be easily retrieved and placed on APNA page. People like Prof. Hoodbhoy and Dr. Isa Daudpota are focussing on India-Pakistan relations and their secular thoughts combined with rational thinking have led them to target deconvoluting the twisted history as taught through curriculum board guidelines in Pakistan and India. They are doing fine job in that regard. We are concerned here with Punjabiat and promotion of Punjabi language among Punjabis. I do believe that this road also leads to easing tensions between India and Pakistan through extending Punjabi brotherhood in culture terms because it will make Punjabis soft towards each other. As I suggested earlier, this may even act as vaccine within Pakistan against malignant strains of religious fundamentalism and orthodoxy. It is a win-win situation any way one looks at it. In the job market neither Urdu nor Punjabi is much help at current stage. Another very very important result of education in Punjabi, which is often overlooked, will be diffusion of various dialects into more manageable and a common written expression in Punjabi language..........Saeed Farani, I understand your frustration with repression of Punjabi language in the name of ideology. Since my Punjabiat is 100 percent made in USA, I do not have to play politics with it in Pakistani style. To me it is a subject totally different from religion or science. A Punjabi dealing with another Punjabi on the basis of culture is above and beyond the impact of non-Punjabis, Urdu or any other language or religious philosophies. The connection between land, people and their culture is what gives an individual cultural identity. The fear of Punjabization of Pakistan is nonsense. We are only concerned about Punjabiat for Punjabis and that is strong enough boundry condition. It is not exploitive, expansionist or anything of that sort. Wht then some forces are threatened by people speaking, writing and communnicating in Punjabi? It is no conspiracy for Punjabis to be 60+ percent of Pakistanis. Did Punjabis plan to dominate Pakistan by growing faster than others? Whenever there are visibly too many Punjabis in power (for example Nawaz Sharif government), everybody cries foul. What about now? Almost all powerful position are held by Mohajirs but Punjabis do not make big deal about it. There were all kind of jokes about Nawaz Sarif interaction with I. K. Gujral. What about Musharraf and A. B. Vajpai? I have not heard of any sherwani, topi and paan joke about them.


Name: DullaBhatti - August 24, 2001
E-mail: DullaBhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   MK janaab kiddaN ay? Theek Thaak ho na? Good to hear from you. Teri Punjabi is pretty good. bass bolday rahvo. Here is the list of Dictionaries from a Punjabi book seller online:

http://www.maboli.com/nahal/encyclopunj.html

Also check the main page to find how to order etc. This guy is in California and ships all over North America.
I think DIC-009 English-Punjabi Dictionary bye Punjab State Univ Text is pretty good.


Name: Mohamad Khan - August 24, 2001
E-mail: mohamadkhan@hotmail.com
Comments:   namaskar/sat sri akal/salaam. do sawaalaat: ik eh we, ke Eric Cyprian da mazmoon je es site wichh hun chhapiyaa ae, oh menun bada dilchasp te changa lageya; mera khayal ae ke main ohdaa naam Zubair Ahmad da mazmoon "Silence of the Five Rivers" wich wi wekheya si. par "Eric Cyprian" ik European naam lagda ae menun, dar asl oh Punjabi ae? duja eh we ke meri Urdu chonke behtar ho gayi ae, hun main naal naal Punjabi wi apne maape naal bolan di koshish karna chaunda waan...masla eh we ke mere kol ik bada wadhia Punjabi-Angrezi kosha eh (Singh Bros da), par koi Angrezi-Punjabi lughat/kosha nahin ae. koi menun bataa sakda ae ke mainun keri lughat leni chaidi? shukriya.


Name: Safir Rammah - August 24, 2001
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, VA     USA
Comments:   Dear Zaki: I share your feelings about Saeed Farani’s struggle and his frustration. I know a couple of learned folks on your list. Pervaiz Hoodbhoy was here a couple of years ago while still an advisor to Musharraf’s government on education. We invited him for a get togheter. I asked him point blank about his views on replacing Urdu with Punjabi in Punjab’s schools and was shocked to find out that he had never even thought about it. A main reason for Farani’s frustrations is that after 10+ years of brainwashing, very few literate people in West Punjab are left with any sympathy for their own language. May be what we should do is to prepare a brief, to the point and succinct 'Punjabi Da Muqqadma' in the form of a brochure in Punjabi, Urdu and English. Haneef Ramay tried to do that for Punjab on a diffrent scale from a political perspective. We can request a few friends (yourself, Farani, Manzur Ejaz and others) to collaborate on this project and then publish it from APNA as part of our efforts to educate our members, friends and other West Punjabi's on this issue.


Name: Javed Zaki - August 24, 2001
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Location: East Lansing, MI     USA
Comments:   [Dear Saeed Farani] Man! You made me to feel so sad. Sometimes I felt my other self was talking. Rub di soanh, I did not mean to hurt anyone. It was just a simple argument. You will be happy to know that I know your buddies (Dr. Cheema in particular). Before coming to the United States to do my doctorate I was also located in Islamabad. I, along with my wife, was employed at the Pakistan Institute of Development Economics. Occasionally, I taught in the Department of Pakistani Studies as a ‘Visiting Professor’. We were a group of very progressive folks [Dr. Pervaiz Hoodbhoy, Dr. Nayyar, Dr. Malik Mahmood, Dr. Faheem, Dr Saleem, Tariq Ahsan, my most dearest buddy; Jamil Omar and friends from PIDE]. I cherish those days. Best of regards.


Name: Nurpuri - August 24, 2001
E-mail: nurpuri@aol.com
My URL:
Location: Brampton, Ontario     Canada
Comments:   Farani Ji, I'm delighted that you have spent far too many years promoting your mother-tongue, Punjabi. But please tell me, what role does the 'script' play in your endeavours? Shahmukhi vs Gurmukhi? If I wish to promote the Punjabi language also, but using the Gurmukhi script, which is the only one I know, would you or your supporters be offended? In essence, we'd still be promoting the same language. What do you think?


Name: Saeed Farani - August 24, 2001
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Dear Dr. Javed Zaki, I appreciate your thoughtful comments. I am also thankful to Moeen Bhatti and Mr. Sameer to take my writings in a true sence. Dr. Zaki, I cannot explain my view points in a technical language. I just explain as an ordinary man what I observe, what I think and what I feel. It may be right or wrong. Others also have the same right. I got this forum after many years. Earlier I was trying to send articles to the various newspapers but generally there was discouragement. And it is non-sense to write in favour of Punjabi in Urdu newspapers. If sometime I got success then I have to listen the complaint of my that known person in the following words, "Yaar tooN tey marwaa ditaa ey." So he also goes away like "kaaN galeyley nooN wekh ke nasda ey. " I appreciate this site where people write even against the cause of Punjabi. They appreciate Urdu or Urdu poets. Though there are many sites to promote Urdu. Dr. Zaki, I am not against anybody Urdu speaking or anylanguage like Urdu. I just hate and try to push away the the offenders from the dead body of victim. And this job is being done by me as a human being. Who so ever will be offender even my father, I will go against him. It is in my nature. I feel my language, culture and land has been .... and victimised by the invaders, aliens or who so ever came here on the name of religion or any nazreeya veeya. I hate them and I will hate them till the day I die. Jsut think if I go to Lakhnow and for any reason I force them to speak Punjabi, then I will be offender. I must be punished. I have no right from any source or any sky or any corner or any reason to offend. Another example, I went to Swat for the job reasoning in 1981-83, served in Habib Bank as an officer. I was lator on forced to leave the job. I was arguing in Seminars that all the head offices of the banks should be spread in all the country. Why the whole wealth has been accumulated in Karachi. That was my fault. They threw me in the far area branch where I served for two years. Then I just resigned that job. Simply, I mean here, I learnt there Pushto, the language of the masses and area. i was proud to speak Pushto with my Pashtoon bretherns. They were also welcoming me in their even domestic functions. Certainly, the Pathans who come and stay in Punjab if they speak Punjabi, I feel proud of them. But here the case is entirely different. Here, in Punjab if I speak Punjabi, or I claim that I am a Punjabi ( the right which even the holy Quraan has given to all human beings), I am cornered. I am hated. I am called the agent of India. I am named as Sikh's friend as Sikhs are very bad people. They are human being too and creature of God/Allah or Bhagwaan. They must be equally respected. Here even sometimes, I have to face stupid questions as, "Are you ready to marry your daughters with sikhs?" I am who to marry my daughters. I even don't claim or put stars on my shoulders that I am the father of these girls. I am just their wellwisher. I have the first the the great relation with them that is as human beings. As a good wisher I wish I could give them sense to live like a good human being but unfortunately, due to my lifestyle and family reasons I am unable to take them according to my own wishes. And I am also not a mother who teaches her duaghter Armenian language even staying in Quebec, Canada. I can just have a wish to be married such a lady who could be proud of her language. It is too late now. I am stading in the dead-end street. Please forgive me there is too much I, in this segment. You just think it is a story of a mad man. "Bulhya tooN aashiq hoyooN Rab da, tey hoee malaamat laakh, teynoo kaafir kaafir aakhdey, tooN aaho, aaho aakh. Here I feel the fire because I am sitting in the pan over the fireplace. I am being fried. Moeen Bhatti can understand my pain. I am not against any one but all those who directly or indirectly killed my language. It is my right to identify them. I too have some known good friends among Urdu speaking community. But they often talk with me in Punjabi whenever we meet. They should talk with me in Punjabi. They do good. As I was talking in Pushto during my stay in Swat valley. I often talked by sitting among people according to the advice of Baba Farid: kook Fareeda kook, jad tak tanDa saar, jab lag tanDa na girey, tab lag kook pukar." I did that job but I found it is too difficult to talk to the journalists or professors or others who are badly brainwashed. They run after meeting their basic needs. They are humanbeings too. They don't understand they are hating their mother language and doing this cruelity. Just go through this paragraph of Mirza SahebaaN, I thought as the mirza's mother was advicing to me. She was crying, " Just shut your mouth and pass the time." But what we do, according to Waris Shah, "Moye sap waaNg wis gholdey aaN." Let me add here the advice of Mirza's mother to his son. Go through this site's (apnaorg.com) "Complete Books of poetry" of Mirza Saheba's page #5, third paragraph. chaRhdey mirzey khan nooN, maaN mat dayndi khaRee, yaraaN choraaN wich bayth key, gal na karyey kharee. There is another great saying of Mian Mohammad Bukhash in Saif-ul-Malook, Moorakh nooN keeh pandh Mohammad, pather nooN keeh paalaa, DudhdhaaN under kaag nawayey, ant kaley da kaalaa or he also says: KhaasaaN di gal aamaaN agey naeen manaasab karni Miththi kheer pakaa mohammad, kutyaaN agey dharni Now, question arises what should we do. Should I follow the negative advice of my elder sister or should I face the inner humanbeing who want justice from others as well as ours. Anyone who is sitting in USA or in European country if he want to do some sort of practical job for the promotion of Punjabi, he will find me standing by on his right shoulder side. That is the reason I love Dr. Ejaz and Sameer Bhara. I feel sorry if I heart Ms. Zahra amd Mahmud.


Name: Zahra - August 23, 2001
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Dulla Bhatti Jee: After I submitted my post, I thought of a few other points that should have accompanied my previous post, but they did not. I agree that my last post was lacking in the exact answer that you were referring to. I do not see language as a stand-alone entity. I find it part and parcel of the culture. My criticism(and additional one that will follow)is more on the cultural practices than just hanging on to the language and its nuances. Still that does not justify my incomplete answer. I will write my khulli dulli thoughts later. I am sorry, I simply do not have the luxury of time at present - depsite my strong desire to put together what I wanted to add.
later.


Name: SUKHINDER - August 23, 2001
E-mail: poet_sukhinder@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.geocities.com/poet_sukhinder2000
Location: Toronto, ON     Canada
Comments:   Hello Sameer: Thanks for writing me. I have seen most of the best art movies produced by the Indian directors, including those which you have mentioned. But could you name some of the best movies produced by the Pakistani directors - in the last three years? I will appreciate that. With best wishes, Sukhinder E-mail: poet_sukhinder@hotmail.com Director: Knowledge Eye


Name: Mahmud Fahim - August 23, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   To make our records correct. When Mahmud of Ghazni started his invasions on India to make Lahore as a second front in case of retaliation against central Asian rulers and to collect money and human force for his dream to rule central Asia, his supply was intercepted by Multan’s ruler Abu Fateh Daood during one of his invasion to Rajputana. Then one of his famous seventeen invasions was against Daood. It was the almost end of Ismailis in the region and revival of Sunniism in sub continent. Daood’s interception to Mahmud’s forces is a milestone in the Indian history, but not recognized by us. It was south Punjab and they were south Punjabis who did that. Historically, in Mahmud’s army the number of Soldiers and Generals belong to south Punjab was very less than that of remaining Punjab.


Name: Sameer - August 22, 2001
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Thanks Moeen Ahmad and Javed Zaki for very rational posts. I agree with both of you as well as with Saeed Farani about the role non-Punjabis have played in burying Punjabi alive in Pakistan. However, the role of influential Punjabis in reaching to this state is also shameful. The class of Punjabi bureaucrats, Pakistan inherited at partition was like a machine whose job was to keep the system running. They did whatever they were asked to do in order to keep TNT based Pakistan running. They also became corrupt as most of the system became corrupt. The nepotism of this class is with us to this day. The Punjabiat is nothing to them while in power because it might hurt them. Remember the famous press conference in Washington DC by current foreign minister Abdul Sattar. He had to ridicule Punjabi first to accept himself being a Punjabi, after being a Muslim and Pakistani. What should one expect from such Punjabis? They might pick up the cause of Punjabiat after retirement. It appears that Musharraf does not like Punjabis, so all his inner circle is made up of mohajirs. It did not hurt Punjabis because the Punjabis seldom did anything for Punjabiat in Pakistan. Last Punjabi Muslim who did anything worth remembering for Punjabi Muslims was Sir Sikander Hayat Khan. He made Badshahi Mosque Lahore a symbol for Punjabi Muslims. Before him, even Iqbal living practically in its shadow did not think about writing poem about it and instead wrote poem about Cordova Mosque out there in Spain.


Name: DullaBhati47 - August 22, 2001
E-mail: DullaBhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Zahra, still the phrase "one of the best families" was coined by the Time reporter not by anyone promoting language and culture. Like Sameer said, one does not even need to condemn this(and other) acts of Khars...even the totally un-parh Punjabi, Gujrati or Tamil will consider it wrong and cruel.
If it sounded like I am picking on your posts, please forgive me. I didn't mean to. I have been reading lot of your posts(apart from here) for few years. so best of my regards.


Name: Sameer - August 22, 2001
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   DullaBhatti: Key to Punjabi progressive pluralism lied int the religious pluralism of Punjabis which they cherished until the Unionists victory of 1937. It went downhill from then onward because of religion taking the commanding seat in thinking and acting. The religious pluralism was really absent in the westernmost and southern Punjab for a long time before partition. Those areas were practically all Muslims who had nothing to compromise or adjust. This resulted in the worst kind of feudalism in Punjab where feudal lord was also the pir or spiritual leader. In this way, feudal controlled both practical and speculative aspects of Punjabi life. Ghulam Mustafa Khar comes from Kot Addu, distt. Muzaffargarh in the southwestern Punjab. These areas were the first to succumb to invaders and their religion. These early converts often welcomed the new invaders or quickly sided with them, providing invaders food and directions-Panipat that way. The role of earliest converts is always shameful memory in the annals of history of proud people. They were fifth columnists, spies etc. for invaders. The story is same all over the world, in Africa, in Veitnam, Korea and most importantly of native Americans..........Without pluralism the advantage of one generation keeps multiplying with disadvantaged becoming more disadvantaged with the successive generations. While feudalism is a product of centuries of invasions, it can not be justified as a substitute to culture. No sane person can support the treatment of women according to Khar family traditions. As long as people insisting upon Muslim Punjabi, Hindu Punjabi and Sikh Punjabi in terms of culture, the pluralism will remain low and more of Khar traditions, more of loss of Punjabi identity as in Indian movie industry and so on.


Name: Sameer - August 22, 2001
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Sukhinder: There is no good art movie in Punjabi/ urdu made in Pakistan during the last three years. The last good movie I heard was a Punjabi movie, ChurhiaN, though I have not seen it. Three good movies from India would be Marhi Da Diva, Shaheed-e-Mohabbat and Shaheed Udham Singh, though marhi Da Diva is more than three years old. These three movies would have done great business in Pakistan, if allowed to be seen in theatres and would have inspired more people to put money into Punjabi joint ventures or just making good movies. It is really upto Punjabis in Indian movie industry to promote Punjabi culture because they are powerful and dominate indian movie industry. Yet, except Raj Babbar, nobody has done anything to promote Punjabi culture. In Pakistan, movie industry is backward, very small and shrinking. Do not expect any miracle to come out of Pakistani movie industry in this regard. A good suggestion would be to make a serial on the life of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. I bet, if made smartly, it can do more to promote Punjabiat than anything else. It can be funded by a consortium made up of rich Punjabis from Canada and USA. Just a thought!!!


Name: Zahra - August 22, 2001
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Dulla Bhatti: You missed my point. I never alluded to that. I was critcizing the aspect of designating this clan as "one of the best families." Please read my argument on that. Ironically, media and world picks the worst examples from our lands and portrays those as the representative practices. That's the most tragic part here. A writer and a poet who talked about the beauty of our cultural practices(if any left)will not get any recognition or that much recognition as compared to someone who would bring up this social dilemma. What does that say? By the way Durrani herself has a pathethic role, in general - yes, she wrote a disgusting book(My Feudal Lord) where she highlighted everything in her life. I have not gone past two pages of that extremely disgusting book. How could you expect her to raise a sane and normal child anyway?

I hope you got the gist of my argument. We are looking at completely different things here. Please do realize that.Take Care.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - August 22, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Dr. Javed Zaki: Thank you very much for so nice, deep and thought provoking analysis of at least my childish posts. As we study history, this Survival theory, which we relate to British colonial era can be seen throughout the history. It was not named Darwin but was almost exactly like that. The caste system in sub continent, the invader's superiority complex anywhere in the world, Mongols ideology, Nazi party’s manifesto, Arab nationalism and zionism etc. are all examples. Punjabis did not invade any one due to the natural resourcefulness, so it is a drawback in our history. We almost always fought for others. Thanks to this forum that we are at least share our ideas and synthesizing them. The great name for the Punjabi cause in the civil services was of Masood Khaddarposh, who really dedicated his life and efforts for Punjabi. He even admitt his daughter to the TAT schools. He is a symbol and torch bearer of this struggle. I really forgot and sorry for that.


Name: SUKHINDER - August 22, 2001
E-mail: poet_sukhinder@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.geocities.com/poet_sukhinder2000
Location: Toronto, ON     Canada
Comments:   Hello Friends: I will appreciate, if someone can publish on these pages names of the best art films (Punjabi/Urdu) made by the film directors of Pakistan in the last three years? With best wishes, Sukhinder Director: KNOWLEDGE EYE E-mail: poet_sukhinder@hotmail.com


Name: DullaBhatti47 - August 22, 2001
E-mail: DullaBhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Pretty sad and barberic story. The guy should be hanged(instead of Dr Yunus Sheikh) immediately but no one will do so, not because he speaks Punjabi, is Punjabi or from some village in the heartland of Punjab but because he is rich and feudal.
How that implies that people advocating the promotion of Punjabi culture and language on this board are promoting the above - escapes me. Majority of the land woners in Punjab own few acres of land that they till themeselves and in economic status are no better than a rehRi wala from Karachi or New Delhi.
Zahra, I consider it as your bias against Punjabi culture that Khars remind you of Punjabi culture and not some other good example from Punjab.
Should you abandon your religion also because some co-religionists are throwing acid on some non-burqa wearing women? That would be ridiculous and so is this one. One piece of info in the news that Durrani actually help raise/raised Bilal Khar was interesting. So her enlightened and perceived modern outlook on life did not have any good influence on the child Bilal. kuttay di pooch bhawein 12 saal vanjhli ch pa rakho, sidhi nai hundi.


Name: Javed Zaki - August 22, 2001
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Location: East lansing, MI     USA
Comments:   Dear Mahmud, Moeen and Saeed! Self-evaluation and self-criticism may be a very rewarding process for the multi-facet growth of an individual or a collectivity (society), as it may provide an overview of a set of internal weaknesses. Based on that a system of corrective measures would be a logical step. But it is not every thing, as Mahmud tries to maintain in his discussion on Punjab and Punjabi language. It limits the scope of analysis. We need to include and integrate both internal and external factors to analyze the issue under discussion in its entirety. However, we should keep in mind that at a particular time in history a particular set of factors (internal or external) might overwhelmingly be responsible for the determination of a situation. Historically speaking, what are the socio-political factors that worked (and still working) against its success are multifold. Moeen and Saeed discussed some of these factors (however, largely external) zealously. In the nutshell, the inclusion of both the internal and external factors is earnestly required to arrive at an objective analysis. Anyhow, ‘the class-based analysis’ of Moeen and Saeed sounds very convincing. I hope they can put it more elaborately… Saeed Ji! Your account of socio-political facts responsible for the appalling situation of Punjabi language and culture is well taken. I respect your emotionalism in this respect. But demeaning other language and culture will not yield any positive contribution to the evolution and promotion of our beloved native language and culture. Moreover, we should not count every Urdu speaking liable for the distressing situation of our language and culture. We need to avoid stereotyping. During my political activism in Pakistan, I have met many enlightened and progressive Urdu speaking fellows who had very favorable attitude towards the cause of Punjabi language and culture. I am sorry to say sometimes your stand tends to enter the boundaries of national chauvanism…….Coming back to your arguments dear Mahmud! Let me inform you that since very early days of independence, concerted efforts have been going on to get approved Punjabi as a language of instruction in the schooling system of Punjab. Hundreds of name can be referred in this context. Many among them suffered socio-psychological indignation in this struggle. So, please be little appreciative of their struggles. The crux of your argument that tends to put all blame on Punjabis for the prevailing bad situation of Punjabi language and culture is a bit out of focus/context. Sociologically speaking, you unconsciously commit “blaming the victim” mistake. In social sciences (sociology in particular), it has been heavily criticized in reference to the so-called ‘MODERNIZATION THEORY’ that suffers from the ethnocentrism of the Westerns. It tends to put all blames on the members of the so-called developing societies for being in miserable socio-cultural, political and economic conditions due to their assumed undeveloped socio-psychological attributes (both of personal and collective nature). And tends to absolve themselves of all crimes of colonial and neo-colonial exploitation that brought developing societies to the existing miserable situation……. Another of your suggestion to study prevailing appalling state of Punjabi language and culture in the framework of the DARWINIST theory of the SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST is even more questionable. In social-sociological discussion and analysis, it is labeled as “SOCIAL DARWINISM” The basic postulate of this perspective assumes the world to be comprised two races i.e., White (the superior) and Non-white (the inferior). The inferiority of Non-white race is (assumed to be) based on their inherent sub-human biological attributes. It was formulated by the British Colonialist with the help of ‘the British Physical Anthropologists’ to justify their colonial expansion and plunder. The church was also gotten involved to get established its metaphysical creditability. Indubitably, it is a ‘Racist’ perspective and history has documented it. Besides its methodological weakness (that assumes every White person of any socio-psychological and sociological standing is superior to a Non-white person), its moral aspects are heavily criticized (please see Sartre and Franz Fanon writings in the context of the French colonialism in North Africa). Many other writings are easily available that critically elaborate the wrath of the British colonialism in destroying and distorting cultures of their colonies in Africa and in Asia (India in special) for their benefits. Why the European were able to conquer and colonize other nations has been due to their superiority achieved in war technology. This superiority in war technology, however, was achieved for being in a state of continuous war (both intra and inter nationally) during the middle ages. Lastly, dear Mahmud (and Zahra) every one has the basic right to subscribe to any viewpoint/perspective. But, it is largely agreed upon that a personal viewpoint devoid of objective verifications is less valid. TAKE CARE. REGARDS.


Name: Zahra - August 22, 2001
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Here is the reference to Time asia article:

http://www.time.com/time/asia/news/magazine/0,9754,170879,00.html
The following should have read:

"Please do care to read that to learn how uncouthness and barbarianism is being promoted in the name of culture." Thanks.


Name: Zahra - August 22, 2001
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Dear Saeed Farani: I knew you will misread my question. I did not question you in a sarcastic manner at all. Please do not misread my initial intent. I am working on a project and I wanted to get your assistance in that. It deals with the economic development aspect in Pakistan. I thought, you, being a passionate person will have more insights. I will send you an email and state the salient features of the current project. Thanks for the correction on "regional languages" aspect. I understand the intent of this forum and the mindset many nurture :) I do not want to divert you from your original course, but you need to be open-minded to hear others perspectives as well. Just a suggestion :)


Name: Saeed Farani - August 21, 2001
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Dear Zahra, I think I write your name correctly. You asked what I teach. I teach rubbish "Economic Development of Pakistan". It is not a concern what I teach but try to think what I say. Mr. Mahmood You too please. Our struggle is for the masses not for the particulare any opportunists who ruined our land. Try to think that masses and their languages are far more respectable than any poets or writers who spend their lives for the imperialist class. Any sort of intellect which is dummy and imposed on us from antenna should not be honoured. We need to build a pyramid. Zahra, I mean here who so ever born here in this peice of land is a son / duaghter of the soil if he is sincere with the land. DhiDh naaloN goDhey aggey naeeen hundey please. One thing more please don't call these languages as a regional language. Such terminologies were manufactured just to corner the real languages of the area, Pakistan.


Name: Zahra - August 21, 2001
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Nurpuri: Thank you for making me feel guilty. I sincerely appreciate that :)I had thought of writing a formal point by point narrative, but then I happened to lean towards a flow-of-thoughts style than anything else. So here it goes and please extract whatever you deem applicable to your assignment. You must teach your kids, tell your students, educate your masses on the stories and myths related to your land. Being Punjabis, your myths will be in Punjabi and not in Potohari or Baluchi. While growing up in the school system of Pakistan, you do not learn many aspects of the language of your soil, because people do not want to invest time in learning. Everything is based on making quick moves and trying to move ahead than understanding the crux of the matter. I will give an example, just because someone has done MCSE, he would think that was more than enough for him and there is no need to go to school. It's one approach to earn your living, but it's not the best approach to educate yourself. Yes, you can read the translated versions of your own literature and poetry, but you would not be able to exactly relate to the nuances that the poet or the writer had intended. As a result, you missed out on something really important.

After attending APNA's meeting, I thought of many things while I was driving back. Something just struck me very hard that why would the influential and feudal class that's/has been in power in different areas will not work towards the promotion of Punjabi in the curriculum - probably, because that literature and poetry talks about the corruption in the people due to power and influence, double-values, deception and general flaws in our society very openly - who would like to hear the truth and promote it? This also dawned on me while I came across an article in Times(Asia), I guess August 17th or 18th regarding Khar's family. Please do care to read that and how is uncouthness and barbarianism being promoted in the name of culture. One of his sons disfigured his wife by putting acid on her face. Times Asia spoke of the family as one of the best families in Pakistan. It made me wonder why? What did they do? Produce men/women of numbers/letters, scholars, scientists, poets, writers, lawyers...who? Ironically, none of these categories were produced amongst the uncouth and jahilae'mutliqs. Probably, as a nation we don't even know how to identify our elite. It's the writer, poet, teacher, doctor, scientist, technologist and thinker who is the elite class in any country than a shutr-bae-muhaar zameendaar/debauch zameendar. Interestingly, they and their whole kunbaa will know the local language pretty well, but they would never like their people to progress in their lives/careers/professions/or learning some skills. I would hate to see a punjabi speaking fur fur punjabi but sitting on a roadside with a kushkoal inhis hand and asking to a landlord to kick him or bury him alive or let him be his servant for the rest of his life - in return of feeding his family.

I would like to tell you some personal examples, which are very necessary in relation to what is being asked here: All my grandfather's servants and the munshis were supported by my late dada jaan for their higher education. As a result, by the grace of God, their kids are well-educated and have some skill in their hands. Even their daughters have at least attended college. One of them is our very old and dear family photographer from district gujrat. He after finishing his studies opted for photography and always call my abu as bhai jaan. Mashallah he had 8 kids and all of them went to school and college. Yes, at home they spoke Punjabi as their mother-tongue and language of family but because of their exposure to school and college they acquired the knowledge that they neeeded to. They can very well understand English and its nuances. Our late ammaan, known as behan burkatae(abu called her behan burkatae that's why me and my siblings also called her the same)was quite old, and every time when she will come she will talk about her kids and their kids and who was in what jamaat and etc. Yes, they always talked in Punjabi, but in-order to develop the caliber or the thought to know about the literature and poetry - one has to be at a different level of awareness. Basic language skills are one thing, but you have to go beyond that in order to dig into the depths of the language. So I do not know if you are talking about the basic or the advanced level category? Basics ain't vey hard to acquire. The awareness at the advanced level is the real challenge. I would rather have our people the basic awareness and skills in their hands to fetch for themselves than anything else.

Going back to the initial query, when you are away from home no matter how well read or well versed you are in Urdu, something that makes you connect to where you belong to, is your regional language. This is a personal experience. I have always been very fond of different kinds of music, but it was strange when I came to the US for my higher studies and then started working here that I do not listen to any music or ghazal that is in Urdu. It did not do anything for me, despite my strong liking for the language. On one of the trips with my parents, I was playing a very heavy qawwali by nustrat fateh ali in my car when my father asked me in particular, "how come you are listening to this?" Then, it was the first time in detail he told me that how his late grandfather used to write in punjabi. My mother has no taste for this kind of music, but abu could relate to the verses very well. I never realized these feelings and emotions so strongly when I was growing up - I guess you take things for granted. Just like I miss the well-cooked payae like hell and that's the first thing I have to try when I head back home. But when you are away from your point of origin it hits you very hard and you are forced to put your qiblaa in the right direction.

Hope it says something.

Take Care.


Name: Nurpuri - August 21, 2001
E-mail: nurpuri@aol.com
My URL:
Location: Brampton, ON     CANADA
Comments:   I'd like to thank all of you (Suman Kashyap, Saeed Farani, DullaBhatti, Zahra, Mahmud Fahim and others who discussed my questions indirectly) for responding to my two questions about the Punjabi language that I posted on August 15, 2001. I'm still looking forward to reading Zahra's 'perspectives' as promised on August 15th ("I will come back with my thoughts over the weekend"). One of my original questions was "Why shoud we teach our children Punjabi?" If I'm proficient at using both scripts used for writing Punjabi and have to pick one, should I be teaching Shahmukhi or Gurmukhi? What do you think? Why? and does it matter? I have printed your previous responses and have read them a few times. I'd really appreciate your thoughts on my original questions and on the ones mentioned above. Let's talk more about the Punjabi language. Parho Punjabi, Likho Punjabi, Sadaa Punjabi Bolo.


Name: Zahra - August 21, 2001
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Mohtaram Sukhindar:

From your name, I am guessing that you are a Sikh and not a Hispanic? Why are you constantly misspelling my name? and substituting Z with an S? This is quite annoying. Please make a conscious note of it!

Thanks!


Name: Safir Rammah - August 21, 2001
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, VA     USA
Comments:   Sukhinder Jee: Good observations. You can find a complete book of Munir Niazi's poetry 'Safar Dee Raat' on the main page of APNA under the section "Complete Books of Punjabi Poetry." I will add selections form Bushra Ejaz's poetry shortly. Among our commenters here on the discussion group, Zahra has certainly kept the discussion alive, and will hopefully continue to do so. Others also write once a while. I looked through this and pervious pages of APNA Discussion Forum and found the names of Suman Kashyap, Syma Jamal and Bushra Khan. This Discussion Forum and APNA is, of course, open to all.


Name: SUKHINDER - August 21, 2001
E-mail: poet_sukhinder@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.geocities.com/poet_sukhinder
Location: Toronto, ON     Canada
Comments:   Hello Friends: I have noticed two things regarding APNA DISCUSSION FORUM pages: 1. Among the selected poets, the name of an eminent punjabi poet from Pakistan - Munir Niazi is missing 2. secondly, there is no name of any woman poet in that list Friends, let your list not portray your 'macho' image. I have also noticed another thing; except Sahra, no other woman is participating in your discussion forum? Why? I hope, you will do some thing to attract woman audience to your discussion forum. With best wishes, Sukhinder Director: KNOWLEDGE EYE E-mail: poet_sukhinder@hotmail.com www.pulseofpeople.com www.geocities.com/poet_sukhinder2000


Name: Moeen Ahmed - August 21, 2001
E-mail: Moeen_Bhatti23@hotmail.com
Location: Karachi,      Pakistan
Comments:   Mahmood: You are still a blamer, even if instead of blaming the corrupt system and its representatives, you blame your own people. About your claim of Punjabi judges, may be you belong to the legal profession and have closely watched all judges from Pakistan. Or may be you conducted a comprehensive scientific survey on corruption among Pakistani judges from different nationalities (which you MUST publish your research at once). Or may be it is your habit to make claims based on your very limited personal observations and narrow perspective without thoroughly studying an issue. So, I can not comment on your claim that Punjabi judges, or all Punjabi's are more corrupt than Sindhi's or Pathan's or Baluchi's, OK? This reverence and fear of Urdu that you demonstrate is a very common phenomenon for Punjabi's who belong to certain religious groups like Jammat-e-Islami who had produced all their religious literature in Urdu and consider Urdu as the "Islamic" and "religious" language. When Maulna Maudoodi or Azad or Shabeer Usmani or others wrote in Urdu, they were doing it because it was the language of Muslim literate classes in Northern India and in some Muslim princely states. (Not in Bengal or Sindh). Start teaching Punjabi from 'kachi' class in the Punjab and within 10-15 years, the new religious leaders in the Punjab and all other Punjabi writers will start writing in Punjabi and will reach millions more people then they can ever dream of reaching by writing in Urdu. Urdu is not sanctioned by Islam any more than Punjabi or any other language. So please stop defending the status quo under the pretext of your discovery of some "inherent character weakness" of Punjabi's (come and visit Karachi and I will show you the REAL Urdu speaking people to cure your Punjabi inferiority complex) and start working to make Punjabi's educated and literate in their own language. Once this will happen, all "nasha' of Urdu will disappear, just like the "nasha" of Persian has disappeared. Remember Persian, that for centuries was so much loved by our forefathers (not because of any national character weakness - there were other reasons).


Name: Zahra - August 21, 2001
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   After second thoughts, it's not worth my time to convince any activitist. They are more than welcome to proceed with their approach. Each human being has his/her approach in life to do what they want to do. I am also an activist[very passionate about the special projects I undertake]- but I always plan, stay focused and then execute than taking any emotional leaps, depsite the fact that strongheadedness and hotbloodedness is in me as well. But then we all are unique in our approaches and mindsets, that's why we discuss and share arguments. Educationists(the ones who are real good and are intelligent), by nature have a hard time listening to any suggestion by others(younger to them) due to something that cannot be explained. This is my first hand experience from my own mother and aunts. Does not come as a surprise :) My mother's take is, "Obviously, you are older than me and I must listen to you. Sarae' Jahan Kee Knowledge Tum Main Aa Gayee Hae'. Our age has taught us nothing." My response(with heartfelt amusement):"Ammi: then you should be thankful to God for the blessing you have in my form :)." With that said, I will leave and will add thoughts from time to time - Different Priorites!


Name: Mahmud Fahim - August 20, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Moeen, chan jee I am a Punjabi but not a blammer. I don't like to blame others on my failures. Some people like to tell about others injustices and forgot their own actions. If you go to the previous discussion and the points raised, you will come to know that we are just living in a .... paradise and blaming others like a crying kid. If our so called educated people are not willing to safeguard our rights and they play in the hands of exploiters then who will safe you? My dear this is the most bitter fact that the most opportunist among the Pakistani nations is the educated Punjabis, who doesn’t care about their values, language and the culture. You believe that most of the intellectuals struggled for Punjabi are the runners of different NGOs for the sake to make the Punjabis more stupid and to fill their pockets. Remember I am saying most. The only classes who believe in culture and values are the lower middle class and lower class due to their attachment to the soil and lack of opportunity. They are the people who are the guards of culture, till they belong to same class. Otherwise, my observation is that whenever even from them, any one becomes educated, becomes exploiter of the values and culture. Tell me on the basis of facts. You can say easily to me or my generation that we are the products of this urdu system but what will you say about the generations of before and just after partition. They were the leaders in the national stream, but what were their interests? Just make their lands and Jageers more secure. You know better that how many newspapers and journals are published in Punjabi? What is their circulation? It’s a matter of shame. I raised the question of judges in Pakistan and statistically (Ratio wise) the most corrupt judges are from Punjab. WHY?


Name: Zahra - August 20, 2001
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Saeed Farani and Mahmud Faheem have equal validity to their points; despite the fact that they are coming from different mindsets. So, you cannot negate the views of one or the other completely.
Just because Saeed Farani has a certain way of seeing the world, all on board cannot agree with that 100%. We, as a community and nation are famous for being highly sensitive and emotional, in general. I am glad this board testifies those discoveries.

I have never been exposed to the term invaders in the current context and am trying to place it in a right order in my mind, of course.

Mahmud Faheem has some great points on: "Physician, heal thyself first!" Something to look into.

Saeed Farani: I do have a lot of thoughts and I am in the process of composing them. So, I may come back before the weekend with my lumeeyaan choarian childish arguments otherwise they will be released in form of a little thesis by the weekend - please stay tuned for the childish outburst!

Take Care.

PS: I have been hearing and reading about a terminology "sons of the soil." I would love to analyze this macho-concept as well and state my heartfelt concerns.


Name: Moeen Ahmed - August 20, 2001
E-mail: Moeen_Bhatti23@hotmail.com
Location: Karachi,      Pakistan
Comments:   Mr. Mahmud: OK, why have you adopted the role of an apologist for foreign invaders in the past history of the Punjab and for the ruling classes and their karende’s in today’s Pakistan who are bent on social and linguistic genocide of Punjabi’s? Instead of applauding a Punjabi activist like Saeed Farani who rightly points out how this process of depriving Punjabi’s of any pride in their language and culture is being deliberately carried out, you get angry at him? Thank you very much for telling us that Punjabi’s as a nation have certain ingrained weaknesses that justify all the injustice and atrocities against them throughout history and even today. When you say that, you act like a racist. So be careful. Try to think clearly my friend. Don’t you agree that the gross injustice against Punjabi is a fact? Why does it hurts you when Mr. Saeed Farani points out certain manifestations of this phenomena like 95% of Pakistani official media dedicates their time and resources for promoting Urdu? Your analogy of Punjabi’s as a “tootta bhajja pehlwan” and the statement that Punjabi language is being mistreated because of certain “faults” of Punjabis is against all the lessons we have learned in our struggle to understand the causes behind the violation of basic human rights. It is a crime to tell the victim that it is his or her fault and he/she should find the reasons behind the atrocities in his/her weaknesses, whether it is a person or a nation. It is racist thinking again, if you claim that if it is a Punjabi judge applying the blasphemy law, it is another proof that Punjabi’s as a nation have some serious weaknesses that justify killing their language and culture. My dear, this is racism, pure hot and white. You should seriously think before writing. Are you a Punjabi? Remember, how all of us have been brainwashed in schools, from grade one to respect Urdu language, Urdu writers and poets, Urdu culture and by default consider Punjabi language and culture as second class. This brainwashing is very difficult to reverse. It colors our view of all aspects of Punjabi history and issues. Judges, army officers, politician’s they do not represent Punjab or Punjab’s people. Wake up my dear. Get out of your romantic view of things. Ok?


Name: Mahmud Fahim - August 20, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Saeed : Again another medal for punjab, under blasphemy law a punjabi judge Safdar Hussain Malik gave death penalty to Professor Younas Shiekh at Adyala Jail, Rawalpindi. How dare we are just blaming others for the decline of Punjabi culture? At the time of Bhutto's judicial Murder, Punjabi judges played the key role. The most dominant factor in the Pakistan's politics is army, which is composed of punjabis in majority, but unable to save their culture. Try to find that something which changes a punjabi's mind against his own language and culture. It is inside like Bullah's Chore.


Name: SUKHINDER - August 20, 2001
E-mail: poet_sukhinder@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.geocities.com/poet_sukhinder
Location: Toronto, ON     Canada
Comments:   Hello Mehmud Fahim: You have well written your comments on the situation of Punjabi language, culture and politics. I will appreciate, if you can publish on these pages names and e-mail addresses of the contemporary Pakistani punjabi poets. With best wishes, Sukhinder Director: Knowledge Eye www.pulseofpeople.com www.geocities.com/poet_sukhinder2000 www.geocities.com/poet_sukhinder E-mail: poet_sukhinder@hotmail.com


Name: Mahmud Fahim - August 20, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Bha Saeed, hathh hola rakho, all the languages and cultures are guarded by the people and sons of soil not by the invaders. Any culture which is not able to survive itself for any reason, diminished. It is the game of survival of fittest. Just pointing out the cleverness of others is nothing, try to find and cure the faults of Punjabis. If we are in the wrestling as tootta bhajja pehlwan than who broke us. We ourselves, all the time just condemning others is not the good job. On the other hand, who urdu speaking can deny Iqbal, Rashid, Majeed Amjad, Faiz etc. They were all committed to certain idealogy which they believed be universal so they did their job in broad spectrum. Today there is a large number of poets in punjabi then ever. Almost every day a new book in the literature is publishing in Punjab. Why you are so bitter, try to calm down and be optimistic. Hiostorically, punjabi was never official language of Punjab ever, even in the era of Maharaja Ranjeet Singh, the only Punjabi Ruler of all Punjab. The official languages can never rule the people. Do you ever hear urdu in bazar and in wagons. No the masses have their own choice and these dramas or ptv can never change this choice. In Indo-Pak, all the previous official languages died by themselves. Only English is surviving due to its international exposure. The day when Punjabis will be able to do the work in the advancement of tecnology and world politics dominently, Punjabi will become not national but international language. But to achieve this goal, what we have. Just sorries.


Name: Zahra - August 20, 2001
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Dear Saeed Farani:

Thanks for an enlightening post.
What do you teach Mr.Farani? I hope this is not a childish question :)So please let me know.

Thanks.


Name: DullaBhatti47 - August 20, 2001
E-mail: DullaBhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Sukhinder ji, I did not know I am such a celebrity:-). Stick around and you will pick up information here and there in pieces. It is more interesting that way.


Name: Safir Rammah - August 20, 2001
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, Va     USA
Comments:   Friends: Courtesy Mr. Saeed Farani, I have just posted on APNA web page an article 'A People without a Language' by late Eric Cyprian – a leading leftist scholar in Pakistan. Although first published ten years ago, this article is quite relevant to the current discussion here.

http://www.apnaorg.com/ad/cyprian.html


Name: Sukhinder - August 20, 2001
E-mail: poet_sukhinder@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.geocities.com/poet_sukhinder
Location: Toronto, ON     Canada
Comments:   I will like to read on these pages introduction of Sahra and Dullah Bhati. With best wishes, Sukhinder Director: Knowledge Eye E-mail: poet_sukhinder@hotmail.com


Name: Saeed Farani - August 20, 2001
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan USA
Comments:   Dear Zahra, I again partly disagree with your childish comments. In your last statement, you were favouring PTV as it is doing a great job for Punjabi that it shows Punjabi news and dramas. Now let me explain the reality. PTV is the main killer of Punjabi language. Its main job is to promote Urduism in Pakistan. The same job is done by the audio and video shops in each and every town of Pakistan who are selling Indian movies. So PTV and the indian movies are assigned the same job at the same time. The PTV (Pakistan Television) plus other Pakistan TV channels (PTV world and PTV II) broadcast 95% programs in Urdu whereas only 5% programs in real Pakistani languages (they call them regional languages a derogatory name just to keep their status down as compare to Urdu). In such full of suffocation atmosphere PTV or our Sarkar give us a hole to breath when they broadcast Punjabi half an hour or 50 minutes program. We call it in Punjabi, "GongloowaaN toN mitti jhaRna) or OOth dey moonh wich zeera. Five minutes news in Punjabi (which are half Urdu and half Punjabi) from Lahore PTV station are not shown in the northern Punjab, I mean, here in Rawalpindi Division. The half an hour drama at off-time when common people are busy and kids are out for playing, shows an absolute step mother treatment towards Punjabi. Let us take another example to understand the badmaashi of the PTV or the Sarkar. There is announcement that two wrestlers will compete on a fix date. One wrestler (Urdu) is given good food, proper care, malish and all sort of opportunities to do preperation and the other wresler (Punjabi) is given just water mix-salt soup, dry half bread and the legs are broken too. Then the both are brought in the arena to fight and the spectators like you sitting on the comfortable shady chairs comment, Punjabi will survive even in any conditions. You may say such words "poley, poley". You (with due apologies who belong to an ilitia class) may be very optimistic about PTV's this KARAM. But I openly feel that my language and land is being ....... by these so called ..... Let me tell you about my long life struggle, though modesty forbids me to tell you about this. I visited almost all the top GURUs of PTV and information ministries. Mostly, they belong to Urdu speaking community or if there are two or three directors who are Punjabies they also favour Urdu for the so called manufactured unity and strength of the country. They all hate Punjabi. They hate anything which belogs to this land. They even hate those foolish Punjabies who write in Urdu and demand the equality with the top Urdu poets or prose writers. Let me quote here the sayings of Tagore about such Punjabi poets and prose writers who write in Urdu and favour Urdu. Tagore said, "A prostitute, even after amassing all the wealth of this world, cannot command respect. Similarly, when you spend your entire life writing in an alien language,neither your own people will accept you as one of them, nor will the people in whose language you have been writing. Before trying to win outsiders, you should first win over your own people." Tell this great saying to all those columnists and poets who are visiting USA, Canada and UK. At least they should understand their real character. Show them the mirror. They should understand what they are doing and they have done with the land and the people. Since the birth and before the birth of this country the power structure of this area was against the language of masses. Only one political party in Pakistan which remained in power a few times is PPP which could do something for the promotion of Pakistani languages. And they also did for Punjabi a little as starting MA Punjabi classes or introducing Punjabi as a subject equal to Farsi in some classes. But this act was just like as constructing roof first without constructing foundations. Ask these Punjabi dummies of PPP who when are out of power talk about the rights of Punjabi and when they are in, feel helpless and mum before BBB (Benazir Bhutto and Beaurocracy (bura cracy). May be Fakhar Zaman can explain better the hurdles in the way of Punjabi if he is approached.


Name: Zahra - August 19, 2001
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Dear Malang:

Thank you for a very nice post and the approach taken in the post :). Seriously, it was! There are three points that I would like to focus on:

a) On Uniqueness of Ideas: I was never under the assumption that my proposed thought was a unique one. I may have put it in my own unique manner, but it may be baba adam kae zamanae kee thought. I do not get shaken if someone opposes my views or produces a counter one. I am quite secure in my thoughts and how I perceive things. Laiken, what you did was just took out one line and did not look into the context in which it was said. Please do not do that next time. This is not a nursery class where a child is taught to construct individual sentences. Here views are being expressed in form of a thought process. There is no suggestion or naseehut that stands by itself. So, please be cognizant of that.

b) Revision of Curriculum: This was raised multiple times by me as I have seen my poetry curriculum being revised multiple times; both of english and urdu in college. It means someone does look into what should be included and what should not be. There was a complaint from students and I guess professors also added fuel to the fire by condemning the life-histories of all the 30 something poets in our urdu curriculum. At the end, steps were taken. I am talking about late 80s.

c)will be discussed later... Thanks.


Name: Zahra - August 19, 2001
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   To Dr. Ejaz and Mr.Rammah:

Please checkout the following magazine's site.


http://www.parabola.org/magazine.html

It's name is Parabola. In their recent issue, there is an article on the eastern myths and love stories. Very briefly the writer talks about quite a few of them and then elaborates on one of them. While doing so, he talks about a few aspects in the same stride that we discussed during the past gathering. The issue's focus is on fools. I am sure it will come across as a surprise but the approach that all the articles/contributions have taken is very interesting. Kindly checkout the link. The whole article is not on the website and you may have to browse through it at a local bookstore. You can also call their 800 number and request them for a free trial issue and ask them to send you the current issue as a trial issue. Just thought I will bring it to your attention.

Take Care.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - August 19, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Malang123: The way Saeed wrote about urdu is not be appreciable from any respect. As far as creative proposals are concerned, everyone has the right to dream about the betterment. Idea in itself is most creative thing, beside that it is already exists or not. You are against the TNT on one side and promoting it on the other hand by just considering Punjabi and non-punjabi. If urdu speaking people are ruling Punjabis than it is not their fault, it is something bitter about Punjabis themselves. You are even not able to define the Punjabi culture with some models that really ignitiate Punjabi masses to defend their culture. Punjabi is not a nation from any respect, like other nations of the world. They are just multi-cultural farmers and all the interest revolves around the land and its ownership at any cost. Awans claim to be connected to Hazrat Abbass Alamdar, Arrains claim to be off shoot of Banu-Ummaiyya and bla bla bla. The great historian of this era Toynbee even did not recognize Punjab as a separate civilization. The religious factor of Sikhism is most important factor in Punjab to define its culture and values in this era. But it's all religious. On this idea what can you comment? On the other hand almost all the classical Poets of Punjabi are Muslims and having deep religious roots, as can be seen from their poetry and study of their lives. It is a fashion in these days to condemn the values and religion for the projection of the image of Tarraqi Pasand. Unfortunately only Pakistani Punjabis are targeted on this forum, who are still producing a lot of creative work in literature and other spheres related to Punjab than the others. Try to harmonize all the factors rather than negating something on the basis of just your ego.


Name: Malang123 - August 18, 2001
E-mail: Malang123@hotmail.com
Comments:   Zahra said "must come up with strategies as well as propose to the authorities to look into revising the current curriculum than shikwah'o'shikayat. " Why don't you make such proposal or ask someone you know back home to do that and tell us what happens. You seem to believe that it has never been done before and you are first person to think such a smart idea. The above salaah tells me that you don't know much about the ground realities the Punjabi language is facing at home. I understand your constructive approach at your job in private sector in USA but suppose your creative solutions and suggestions are shot down by calling you a enemy of the company and you are accused of acting on behalf of your competitor for 50 years continuously (if you still chose to work for them) by your co-workers, let us know how much enthusiasm you will have left in you at the end to make your next "creative proposal". Anyone who does that in Pakistan is "ghadar", "enemy of Islam", "enemy of Pakistan", "someone who wants to break up Pakistan", certainly someone against the TNT theory. Do you have the courage to do that Miss Zahra? If not then stop making suggestions to people who probably have done more lot in that direction than you have so for. Having said that efforts should continue and well wishers like Miss Zahra and many others should participate in the struggle. Rabb Rakha.


Name: Zahra - August 19, 2001
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   To The Critic:{Moeen Bhatti}
Yes, I realized after I hit "Add Me." Punjabi should be taught at the school level from Nursery and Prep. Thanks for pointing it out!

I was recently talking to a friend - a bohri from Karachi. She told me that they are taught Sindhi in schools. This person's mother/father tongue is not Sindhi. I was very surprised; she also mentioned to me that they have to take it till matric. But there awareness is only at the level of communication and basics - that's it.

My philosophy is that one needs to bring forth the literature and poetry to the attention of one's youth - I guess that's what interests me the most and that's why I was thinking on those terms.

I am not an educationist. I would hope that the educationists would pay more attention to this aspect than constant giryaa'o'zaari. I agree with you completely that we spend all our student life in understanding the asraar-o-ramooz of Urdu and reading the shujrae'nasb of each & every poet on the face of earth - and do not get the same opportunity to read our own people. Most of the times, the way we read about our local poets is in an indirect reference as sufi poets and etc - I must mention that there is a lot of inquisitiveness to know more about them, but as they are/were not part of the curriculum that's why the others took precedance. After my FSc. batch, the "kind" board of education took out the pathetic life histories of all the poets[my apologies to the late ones, but it was torturous to remember the halaa'tae'zindagi of mir, ghalib, daagh, hali, firaq, akbar, nazir and all their cousins and neigbors]. I remembered at one stage, before my finals, my little head was in my hands thinking who went through what; to simplify that I memorized one shaer on each shaer's[poet's] halatae' zaa'r where their name was used :) Like Ghalib's: Tung'dustee Agur Na Ho Ghalib, Tandarus'tee Hazar Nae'mut Hae and etc... By the way, I was always amongst the top scorers in urdu during my matriculation and fsc(pre-engg)exams.

Now, going back to my intent that I had alluded to in my earlier posts on this board: Educationists play an important role and must come up with strategies as well as propose to the authorities to look into revising the current curriculum than constant shikwah'o'shikayat. This board should have thoughts on solution than musalsal giryaa'o'zaari. I guess that comes from my grooming as a management consultant that you have to find solutions to the problems and not constantly raise issues. In my field(IT), if you are raising concerns all the time, you may be requested to take a tayag and do that on your own - pessimistic thinking and regressive approach! If you want to create change or propose a perspective, you need to back it up with either a plan or some steps. You cannot go on complaining that Ya Ilahi, how come I have this and xyz has that. I want what xyz has. Well, I am sure just by complaining to Allah Taala won't suffice; as God helps those who help themsleves. Now if this is the strategy of Allah Taala then should not we the mukhlooqae' khuda learn some lesson from that. My very humble take on the subject that is giving headaches.

Lastly, I think that each buccha should be taught punjabi, urdu, farsi and arabic till matriculation. Then they should be given an option to opt for two languages till fa/fsc. That way you are producing mentally enlightened buchae'with well rounded perspectives on eastern languages. I do not think the other provinces have the same approach and you find more biased and stuck up approaches there. In general, even people who migrated to Punjab are far more well-balanced education wise as well as in terms of mental progression. Take Care


Name: Moeen Ahmed - August 18, 2001
E-mail: Moeen_Bhatti23@hotmail.com
Location: Karachi,      Pakistan
Comments:   Zahra: I was reding your last post with interest. When I got to your generous offer at the end where you said that we should introduce Punjabi Poetry in metric/fsc/ba, I realized that you have missed the WHOLE point. Just stop and think for a moment, why not expel URDU from Punjab's primary schools and start teaching Punjabi children in PUNJABI? Is it not an INSULT to 60 million Punabi's that their language is not taught to their children and even some one like you will only go as far as after 10 years of schooling in Urdu then carefully and slowly introduce in metric and then only poetry. WHY? What is wrong with Punjabi? OK, you don't like pointing fingers, ok, let us assume that neither poitician, nor civil servants, nor policy makers, nor Urdu loving folks, nor Pakistani government, no one is responsible for such very bad traetment of Punjabi, ok let us not point any fingers, let us not blame anyone, let us assume that it just happened, forget history too, ok...but just tell me regardless of whether someone is responsible or not, is it true or not that in Punjab Urdu has taken the rightful place of Punjabi? In schools, in all educational institutions, in all publications, in all media, evrywhere?


Name: Dr. Javed Zaki - August 18, 2001
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Location: East lansing, Mi     USA
Comments:   Friends! Calm down and Enjoy a new Kaafi.................... Sadi v jhok wasa ve ranjhna...MoR moharaN te aa ve ranjhna.. La ke aas umeed khhaRi aaN.....Tere lei jug naal laRi aaN... Bhaa birhooN di roz saRi aaN...Ang la ke Thand pa ve ranjhna ....Sadi v jhok vasa ve ranjhna............................. Tere sooch khiyal stende......Har ja tere jhole painde...... Kaag benaire mool na behnde...Bohta na hun taRpa ve ranjhna. .........sadi v jhok vasa ve ranjhna........................ Naam tere di jog lei ae......Heer saleti ranjhan thei ae.... Niunh de shouh vich ruRh di pei ae...Aa ke paar cha la ve ranjhna.......Sadi v jhok vasa ve ranjhna..................


Name: Zahra - August 18, 2001
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Dear Saeed Farani: I have some comments from few posts that you have raised in the past.

a) Without any offense implied, somehow you seem to be living on an isolated island, completely cut off from the rest of the world. You had expressed your concerns on how TV would pay less importance to programs in Punjabi.... I still remember as a child watching the evening news in Punjabi followed by a drama - usually, a nice one with some moral. I have never in my life seen a real panchayat scene; but I would learn about that on the TV-dramas. Often times, the theme would be very simple and down to earth. So, there were Punjabi plays that used to be showed on PTV in 80s and 90s.

b) Somewhere else you have also talked about how the Punjabi bureaucrats will shun their own language whereas a Pathan or some other fellow will promot his native language. I completely disgree with your stance here again. Having a number of (late uncles/current uncles and cousins)in civil services/foreign services, I can tell you that I have rarely come across anyone who would be shy or hesitant to speak in Punjabi. I guess that has a lot to do with how secure you are in your own identity. It would have better had you opted for the expressions, that you've experienced or observed than generalizing it for all and sundry. Again, I am saying from what I have observed personally. Just thought of giving you another perspective.

c)I wrote a post earlier that I guess got deleted, but I did go back and read what Bushra had also pointed out. My emphasis was on another aspect than what was being discussed between Sameer JB and Mahmud Faheem. Unfortunately, I do not like to indulge in historical discussions where people tend to dwell on writing saheefae about history. Well, I agree that it gives you a thorough perspective about the reason behind xyz, but this mindset would like to sleep on the discoveries from the past and will feel accomplished. I like to live in the present and prepare for the future. From an educational point the views/saheefae hold some value, but then what? I am an action person and I do not like to get into these discussions which bring no result except for digging into the history.

d)Have you read the constant emphasis regarding empowerment of women in some arguments? Did you find any substantial arguments to back that perspective? I think when I read such views they amuse me to hell as they are just statements without any sur paer. In order to empower anyone, you need to look forth and not look back. There was a very interesting article that I had read in Dawn - August 17th issue under Opinions. The heading is "Urban Decay and Middle Class Apathy." Please checkit out - with an open mind and you will see a lot that is wrong in our system and how it will continue to go on. Also why ?

Lastly, with due respect, I also think that you have raised concerns on how we can improve certain mindsets and introduce the concept of our language to all. If you kept on going to baba adam's zamana, I am sorry that will be an indicator of your lack of focus as well as committment to your goal. My thought!

On an ending note: I think each language has its own place and value. By demeaning one, you do not raise the standard of other. By making sure that you acknowledge others, you make place for your own. Please read my emphasis that you "make place." Kindly do not rely only on emotions in your arguments as they can mislead you into writing emotions driven thoughts than taking rational steps. You can be very emotional, sincere, die-hard fan about something, but your lack of tolerance about other things can make you waste your positive energies in finding faults than taking action steps.

Punjabi has been existing and will do so; whether you kick Urdu Language right and left or let it go. What you as an educationist must look into is how to get the poetry in the curriculum of matric/fsc/fa and ba/bsc. Please put your focus in right order. It's getting consumed by emotional outbursts.

Best Regards


Name: DullaBhatti - August 18, 2001
E-mail: DullaBhatti47@yahoo.com
Location: San Jose, CA     USA
Comments:   Rammah Ji: regarding Surjit Sakhi's poetry:
I think she is certainly amongst the top few Punjabi poetesses(Amrita Pritam, Prabhjot, Manjit Tiwana etc) particularly because of her Ghazals and APNA should include sample of her poetry when the time allows. Right now I have only 1 copy of her book that I use my self to identify "behars" and try my own hand on Punjabi Ghazal. Give me some time and either I will give you this copy or another one, if I can slip one out of her possession:-).

Saeed Farani: Janab thanks for reading my posts...or more likely my jabhaliyaN:-). It is great pleasure to read people who not only have similar views but are more determined and knowledgeble than me. My words that "Punjabi people always seem to be in hurry while talking" was a quickly made up response and did not come from any deeper analysis of the behaviour. I am glad that you have corrected me and explained the backgroud of this phenophenon. Thanks a lot. Adding to your post I am sure you have heard the comparison of " May I come in, Sir?" with "VRhaN?". Punjabi is a live language used for every aspect of day to day life not only for writing poetry or office work.
Like Sameer said, the relationship of Punjabi language with the land is 'nauN-maass' da rishta. It is the language of sons of the land not of rulers and invaders. That is why I take great pride in speaking Punjabi and being one.


Name: Safir Rammah - August 18, 2001
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, Va     USA
Comments:   Dear Sukhinder: Ref: Your remarks on lack of poetry selections of modern poets on APNA web page. I have just added Zafar Iqbal and Ahmed Saleem's poetry in Shahmukhi and selections of another 25 poets are in the pipeline. Same for poetry in Gurmukhi. APNA Web page is a work in progress in its early stage. We began with the classical poets and are now posting modern poets. We will then move on to prose, criticism, history, current issues, etc. We welcome and appreciate any comments/suggestions from our visitors.


Name: Saeed Farani - August 18, 2001
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Dear Dulla Bhatti, I always feel pleasure reading your funny comments in this forum. Though you have name of a great and model Punjabi "Dullah Bhatti (Abdullah Bhatti). Anyhow, I enjoy your comments. You mentioned one book "Punjabi diyan bhashai vasheshtaiyeaN" (Linguistic Characteristics of Punjabi" by Harkirat Singh. This book is in Gurmukhi and is easily available from some book sellers on the Internet. For me it is difficult to get it in Pakistan. I can read Gurumukhi. If you or someone else can send me this book, in return I can send him any book equal to the value of that book from Pakistan. Thanks. In ur last comment I don't agree with you when you say that Punjabies are always in hurry while speaking that is why "haath" (in Urdu) is hath in Punjabi, kaan is "kan", kaam is kam, aath (8) is aTTh, saat is sat and saas is sass." Bhai jee, eh gal naeeN. Actually, these Urdu speaking people even speak faster than Punjabies and when they talk it seems always that they are in so hurry as they have pressure to go to tiolet. Even then they have long words as compare to Punjabies. It is not their fault. It is the cultural background of Urdu. Urdu was born in the courts of Mughals and at the kothas of prostitutes of Lukhnow etc. Go through the book "Guzashta Lakhnow". These prostitutes were running the couching institutes of civilization and culture. They were very polite even today pros ladies are very polite because they sell their bodies and talks and earn money. They teach to the wives of Nawabs day to day life ethics and civic values. Urdu was also born due to interaction and talk between these prostitutes and mughal soldiers and families. Prostitutes talk in Hindi mix Persian with them just to please the Mughal army-men. So at both the places the language was clear and soft. Of course when they are not in hurry so the words are long and soft. Why long Urdu words like "haath" naak are short like "hath" and nak in Punjabi, I think it is the reason a longevity of Punjabi language as compare to Urdu. If Urdu will stay here for a few hundred years, the words will become smaller again because of the same proccess as the Punjabi words had. But till that time we would have wasted our many generations in the gutter of Urdu. The words are like stones which are rough when they get break from the rocks. Then they roll with the sand in the water and become beautiful round stones. Their harshness goes and they seem soft and short. Just take a few examples: a word "snake" in Punjabi is "Sap" supp. How this word was formed? In Punjabi we say saah (breath) nup (capture) so the rough word "saah+nup" became "sup" with the passage of time. Today we speak "sup" which is only two-letter word in Punjabi. These Urdu speaking people when landed in this region with the English army in 1949, sinse then Urdu was imposed over us. And they forced us to study four-letter Urdu word "saanp". It was linked with their future plans to control this region according to their wishes. Though this decision was taken by English (capitalists) forces but they took this decision with the consultancy of their hundred years old allies urdu speaking servents (loyal indian muslims which are of course even today the most reliable puppets of course along with so-called Punjabi elites). At that time (in 1849) many English men alread knew Urdu because they captured those Urdu-speaking areas like UP and CP earlier. And Urdu was easier for them too because of its soft sounds taken from Persian language. Dear Dhulla Bhatti, since that day our beautiful Punjabi words, which have become smaller and smarter due to their long use, were banned on us. Just read this joke which I often tell to my intellectual friends. It is so easy to say in Punjabi, "Sap aya-ee it phaRa." (the snake has come, give me the brick). Here the message in Punjabi is so brief and so quick to kill the snake. Whereas in Urdu they say, "Saanp tashreef laaya hey, zara eeent pakraiyee hazoor ............." Meanwhile someone will hand over the brick the snake will easily escape. So the brevity is a good character in Punjabi. Are Americans are foolish that they are shortening the words as "labour to labor, programme to program. And instead we are sure short fool (even gullible) who are spending their energies, time and money on such a language which has long words like "haath for hath, naak for nak, saaanp for sap, eeent for it, moonchch for muchch, tashion for istation , phultroo for pull through, feeta for feet. That is quite non-sense and illogical that 80% population of this country (Punjabies and Sindhies) are forced to learn many hundreds basic four-letter words instead of two-letter words. These 3% Urdu speaking so called Ashrafia (super human beings) could not learn these two-letter words or the local languages and put us in trouble. Or it was the policy of the imperialists to keep this area dumb and blind and use them for their own cause and they used it so crookedly. Dear friends, it is my own observation and the scholars have right to correct it if I am wrong. This discussion should be spread all over the world among Punjabies so that they could understand, ohanaaN naal hath keeveyn hoya. Should we not start publishing small small pamphelts? Just think on.


Name: Sameer - August 17, 2001
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Location: New York, NY     USA
Comments:   Both Suman Kashyap and Saeed Farani have made excellent points. I completely agree with Suman that no language is important outside the fold of people who identify themselves with it with the exception of utility in dealing with people across different languages. Punjabi is not important to Balochis or Tamils or any other group. However every language does contain some specific markers that make it different from other. In the case of Punjabi, I would point out 1) The changing accents of Punjabi language with respect to frequency and pitch, the softness and hardness, almost scientifically related to the softness and hardness of the land itself. The pahari accent fits very well with the ups and downs of the land and mountains and Saraiki to the extremely soft landscape with higher percentage of sand. One can take the dust from Saraiki belt in a tin box, central Punjab dust in another similar tin box and Pahari or Potowari dust in another similar tin box. Each box will sound slightly different when shaken at the same rat. One can tape these sounds as well as accents spoken there. You will notice a great scientific match ( compared acostics, frequencies and pitch) between each accent and land. 2) In laterature, the construction of Punjabi tappay are unique to Punjabi. The first meaningless line (used for attraction only through same tune and ending) is followed by two inter-related meaningful lines. The singer repeats first line two three times in different notes to attract attention and focus from audience and then the message in the next two lines in the form of a couplet. 3) Punjabi is the only language with 100 million plus speakers but least anount of literature in written form. On one side it reflects the historical reasons for it taking the back seat in writing and on the other side it shows the power of oral traditions in Punjabi language. Somehow it feel easy to memorize poetic constructions in Punjabi than other languages. With little effort, a large number of people are hafiz-e-heer or hafiz-e-Bulley Shah. They have practically memorized whole poetry of their liking. Please note that I may be the least knowledgeable in this area, so everybody must take it as a lay person's opinion.


Name: suman kashyap - August 17, 2001
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Location: los angeles,      USA
Comments:   nurpuri's question is a really interesting one, and challenging too. after all there are hundreds of languages in this world. is there something special about each and every one of them? will you begin to learn tagalog if it is proven to you that there is something special about it? this is just my opinion but a language is special if it is special to YOU. if it resonates in you at an emotional level. if its sound comforts you and you recognize your own self in the values and sensibilities it projects. my intellect can recognize the beauty of a poem by goethe but my soul cannot respond to that view of life. perhaps a reson to keep punjabi alive is to give ourselves and our children the ability to access this cultural heritage. strong roots make for strong future branches. secondly, there has been much discussion about the underlying meaning of various lines and characters of 'heer'. a poet writes a poem. who knows what was in his mind as he wrote it. however, once the words are on paper they belong to the reader and any interpretation, no matter how outlandish, can be made. but finally, the power of a poem lies in its emotional impact.


Name: Saeed Farani - August 17, 2001
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Dear Nurpuri, As Ms. Zahra said, "It is very interesting question." The same is my remark and I will try to translate one of my articles from Punjabi to English for you. The article is about the topic "The importance of Punjabi language." It is included in my book "Punjabi Zubaan naeen marey gee.)Your questions were: What is so special about Punjabi language? Why should we teach our children Punjabi? Just brief one small and at the same time great point. Once I was travelling in a train from Montreal to Toronto and beside me there was a lady with a small girl. She was talking with her baby in a alophonic language, (niether English nor French). I asked her the language she was communicating with her baby. She told me it was Armenian. She was staying in Montreal. I again asked her you live here and you have to speak two languages in Quebec and already it is enough burden on the tiny brain of this small baby and you are also teaching her Armenian. There is ocean of English around her and of course French too. (Generally, allophone people don't like to speak French in Montreal. They feel easier learning English as compare to French. So three languages and this small baby. Her answer was very interesting. She said,"Armenian is my mother tongue. I have to go to Armenia where my parents and relative live and I want my baby should not feel isolated like stranger in Armenia. Secondly, it is my identity as English and French people have. So I don't want to loose my identity. It will be cruel if I kill my own language at my home with my own hands. (Yes, language is killed by hands. In my Punjab, parents and teachers beat kids if they speak Punjabi at home or in schools.) Mr. Nurpuri try to understand this issue by talking the people who don't leave their languages. We have here in Pakistan one community Gujrati speaking businessmen. They always use this language with each others. That is the way they hide their business talk and secrets. They never loose this language, the language of Gandhi and Jinnah who played a wonderful game in Sub-continent. All the best wishes. saeed farani


Name: SUKHINDER - August 16, 2001
E-mail: poet_sukhinder@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.geocities.com/poet_sukhinder
Location: Toronto, ON     Canada
Comments:   I will like to read through this discussion forum discussion on the poetry of the Punjabi writers from Pakistan: Munir Niazi, Zaffar Iqbal and Shaista Habib and other new and emerging punjabi poets of Pakistan. Can the people of Pakistan talk about their contemporary punjabi poets? With best wishes, Sukhinder Director: World Punjabi Poetry www.geocities.com/poet_sukhinder E-mail: poet_sukhinder@hotmail.com


Name: DullaBhatti - August 15, 2001
E-mail: DullaBhatti47@yahoo.com
Location: San Jose,      USA
Comments:   There is abook on the subject "Punjabi diyan bhashai vasheshtaiyeaN" (Linguistic Characteristics of Punjabi" by Harkirat Singh. This book is in Gurmukhi and is easily available from some books sellers on the Internet. One particular characteristic I remember is that most geneder neutral nouns/words have names which sound more often manly. e.g. Rain -> meeNh, is male while in Hindi and Urdu 'barish'/barsat is female.
Darya -> although borrowed from Persian is a male unlike 'nadi'
other examples are: maTha, della(eye:-)), munh, bull,lakk(not kamar),nakk (not naak), saah(breath, not saans which is female)
sharab is female but Punjabis like to call it "nasha", although we have the word "haneri", in ThaiTh Punjabi we call it "jhakhaRh", we call "gaDDa" to a "bail-gaaRhi".
In Punjabi we sometimes call our "kuRi"(daughter) also "putt" or "bacha" etc.

Another characertistic that comes to mind is the modification of the word to fit in the sentence without any connectign word(forgive my lack of proper terminology) like "ghar"....one will say.."main gharoN ayea vaaN" instead of ghar se.
Punjabis are always in hurry while speaking that is why "haath" is "hath", kaan is kann, kaam is kamm, aaTh(8) is aTTh, saat is saT, saas is sass,


Name: Zahra - August 15, 2001
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Nurpuri: An interesting question.
I will come back with my thoughts over the weekend.
A suggestion: you can write it as "Perspectives" than an essay piece. By that, I meant that you should have Perspective-1(P1), P2, P3 and so forth. That way, you will be capturing the exact views than having to insert them somewhere in the essay. I am not sure how you plan to present it, but having done that before, I found my suggested way quite successful in grabbing the attention of my readers.
Good Luck.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - August 15, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Nurpuri: As a student of literature and history I think to understand a language is not as simple phenomenon that one able to highlight the unique qualities promptly. You can check it by asking the same question even here to the local people. Literature with all the symbolism and history with all the perspectives are the necessary things in this way. Punjabi is one of the most communicative, blunt and spontaneous language of the world. Every single word has many shades and its meanings change abruptly just by changing the situation or the way to pronounce it. The other main feature is the alphabets, many words of Punjabi can never be pronounce by the other people, but on the other hand a Punjabi spoken person can pronounce any word of any language by its original sound. Your mother language and its better understanding always initiate the spirit of creativity. It makes you a better person as far as idea and its implementation is concerned. You always think first in your mother language and then translate into other medium or language. If for example you have to count the numbers loudly, after few in the other language, you will start in your mother language. An idea, a creative approach can never come into the minds of parasites. For this the roots and the nourishment through them is necessary. Punjabi literature is so rich and fresh that it can only enhance the creativity in the minds of our youth rather than destructions. It is pride for us and we should be proud on it. I am not a linguistic expert so take my arguments as just common understanding. Regards


Name: Nurpuri - August 15, 2001
E-mail: nurpuri@aol.com
Location: Brampton, ON     Canada
Comments:   I'm writing an essay on the unique qualities of the Punjabi language for some English people (mostly goray). So tell me, what's so special about the Punjabi language? Your thoughts shall be appreciated. Second, why should we teach our children Punjabi? What are the reasons? Is it going to be of any use to them in the future?


Name: Mahmud Fahim - August 14, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Sameer: I am still enjoying your thoughts and it gives a good insight. Historically you know well examples of Baluch, Pathan and Sindhi feuds who didn't compromise with the governments on the name of principles (what so ever). Even in the era of Ayub Khan, many Baluch sardars didn't let their heads down. Saeed Farani indicated Iqbal's poem Punjabi Musalman in which Iqbal says very right that, "Taaweel ka phandda koi Sayyaad lagga de, Ye shakh-e-nashaiman se utarta hai bohat jald". By the way Land is the pride in Punjabi Culture and to face the Raayyet(people) is the tradition. Even than such an oppertunist class has been developed in Punjab which by itself destructing Culture and Language. Britishers some times seem right that not every one had the right to cast the vote, only the land owners, tax payers and graduates. So we see the progress of Punjab in that era was tremendous. Ruling class struggled for the betterment of Punjab, irrespective of religion and faith. Sir Fazal-e-Hussain, Sir Ganga Ram, Sir Chottu Ram and many others were really fought for Punjab and Punjabi Culture. One can never forget the successes of Unionist Party. They knew that how to face the voters who were also landowners. Dr. Manzur Ejaz pointed out in one of his postings that the best solution of this dilemma is the massive industrialization. It really seems most acceptable solution. Regards


Name: Safir Rammah - August 14, 2001
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, VA     USA
Comments:   Dullah Bhatti: It is a bit complicated then that. One of APNA's e-mail boxes was misconfigured (by APNA Host) by mistake. I have called them a few times since last night and they assure me that they have shut down that particular mail box. You may now be getting e-mails that were forwarded before the mail box was taken down. My sincere apologies to all who received these e-mails


Name: DullaBhatti - August 14, 2001
E-mail: DullaBhatti47@yahoo.com
Location: San Jose, CA     USA
Comments:   Attention!Attention!

Commercial Break. Kushti thoRhay chir lai band!
Bhalwaan zara saah lai lain:-)
Refree sahib (Rammah sahib): what is this e-mail spoof going on since yesterday? Originally I received an e-mail from you titles "test" and then I started getting messages from servers all over the world regarding failure of mail delivery(when I did not send anyone anything). I think everyone on the e-mail list probably got it. I am still getting these messages, one every 10 mintues after, about 20 hours of the original message(total about 60 so for). Please try to fix this problem(if you have control on it).
Attention! Attention!

Saaday bahut hi piyaray Multani te Rawalpindian bhalwaanaN di kushti da agla daur shuru howay!

ps: no malice intended. Carry on.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - August 14, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Thank you very much for such a nice thesis. Since I am a student, so here some questions arise that 1) I am not aware of Sanskrit text of Sindhi, its Persian. 2) What would you think about the Thesis of Mahmood Shirani in which he claimed that Urdu is an offshoot of Punjabi, (may be due to official language of Punjab that was Persian since long time.) 3) I think that since Pushtoon and Baluch are composed of moving tribes, so the language and culture exists in them. It can be observed anywhere in the world that the tribal nations preserve their cultures and values, while the people stuck to specific part and made permanent dwellings, loose it and either absorbed by others or vice versa. The result is multicultural society, which we observe in Punjab. Harrappa and Moenjodaro are the examples in this context. 4) We see in NWFP and Baluchistan, a good part of their leadership is anti-religion and a constant battle is in between these two extreme thoughts, despite of their Persian text. We cannot find such progressive leaders in Punjab. Why? Regards


Name: Sameer - August 13, 2001
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Pushtu and Balochi languages belong to Indo-Iranian family of Indo-European languages and derived from old Persian. The association with Persian makes them acceptable Islamic languages. Punjabi and Sindhi are derived from Prakrits which were spoken dialects of Sanskrit. Urdu though mostly Sanskrit based as spoken hindustani language successfully tied itself to Islam and language of Muslims. For this very reason, Urdu replaced Persian as official language by British, in Punjab. While Punjabi language has to face the challenge from Urdu (with Urdu being Islamic and Punjabi being native-non-Islamic), Pushtu and Balochi never faced this dilemma. I have said in the past repeatedly that promotion of Punjabi culture without pride in it, progress for Punjabi people and social justice including emancipation of women folks must go hand-in-hand. Such is not the case for Pathans and Balochis. All their energies are spent in just pride with no social justice, emancipation or progress-that is stagnation and useless pride. Those cultures are not flourishing! Pathans and Balochis do not have the Punjabi dilemma of religious divisions of Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs. They do not need to extend hand of friendship to non-Muslim co-culturists. They do not need a non-religious organization for the promotion of their cultures. All the social indicators indicate them falling behind Punjabis and Mohajirs. They must think about the causes, which are strong faith and detrimental to women conservativeness. I will have no interest in Punjabi culture if it means honor killing, women restricted to home in the name of traditions and less than 10 percent literacy level. Sorry, if Pathan and Balochi example of religion and culture co-ezisting is your model, I am not buying it. That is why, I am against madaris whether run by Punjabis or non-Punjabis. That is a step towards Pakhtunization style coexistance of religion and culture. The madrassah culture, Punjabi culture and harmony and progress for Punjabis can not go hand-in-hand. The spread of Madrassah culture in Punjab by east Punjabi immigrants or west Punjabis is the result of our highly twisted interpretation of ideology that suits certain elements in Pakistan. It has been propagated through government controlled media for over 50 years and finally chickens are coming home to roost...........A strong Punjabi identity contradicts strong animosity among Punjabis on the basis of religion for which they have already paid heavy price, at the behest of Upites. The blame ultimately lies with Punjabis no matter what their tribal identites are.........they have learnt from the past 1000 year experience with mauraders, thugs abd colonialism that siding with power has its rewards and opposing it has terrible consequences. Just read the history of tribes who opposed invaders. That coersion continues to this day. Since feudal had more solid assets and more to lose through coersion for being in opposition, why not join the ruling party. They tried previously and still trying to offset coersion by intermarrying with families from different political parties and military. Their latest method id to decrease solid assets and convert large portions of their wealth into liquid assets, both through corruption and lawful means. The liquid assets are less likely to suffer from coersion, while in opposition. That is why, people like BB can afford to have all of her lands confiscated without losing large portion of their assets. It is not dhugga pun or stupidity but a history of coersion that has made them pragmetic and opportunistic. Being in opposition to ruling elite in Pakistan means facing a large number of cases in courts from stealing underwears, pair of bulls, rape, kidnapping, tax evasion etc. Why face so many troubles, just join PML (LM or QA). It is the unfair treatment of opposition both during democracy and dictatorships that has kept feudalism in tact in Punjab and Pakistan. A Punjabi leadership, proud of Punjabi heritage will undoutedly be soft on Indian Punjabis and thus on India. That is not going to happen with strong military opposing it with the help of mullahs. No matter how much I dislike feudalism and would like to see a real land reforms, but in the meantime feudalism amd tribal identities with pride in heritage is a useful tool to ward off retrogressive forces. In that regard, a Sir Sikander Hayat Khan is better than Iqbal or CH. Rehmat Ali type. I have not even touched upon the international relation arena with regard to our strong outwardly Islamic identity. It is harmful at home and harmful abroad also.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - August 13, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Oh Poor Jats and Rajputs who are proud on nothing and have no courage or sense to change the system from centuries, even with the majority. What a tragedy. Just blamming others and nothing else? If it is the true picture than with the cause of other's cleverness please tell us the Dhugga Pun of punjabis too. Statistically most of the Maddrassas of religious-militant organisations are equally leading by Punjabis. They are mostly in punjab. The most armed Sipah-e-sahaba started from Jhang, the Heer's birth place by the hands of East Punjabis. For what purpose? You imagine to get control on the smuggling trade route between Afghanistan and Karachi port. All the main terrorists of this organisation are punjabis who are just killing the humanity and nothing else. Another question why these organisations are not successfully killed the culture of the other provinces especially NWFP and Baluchistan where they are always in the strong position in political system. Pathan and Baluch are very strong in their religious practice and their cultural values too. Pathans are still selling their daughters traditionally but strict in Namaz etc. Come on the facts and don't blame others as loosers on the name of culture.


Name: Sameer - August 13, 2001
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Location: New York, NY     USA
Comments:   SaeedFarani: Most people do not realize that all this Islamic hoopla was started by Liaquat Ali Khan to create a constituency for himself against the rising challenges from Punjab, Sindh and NWFP. The time between rise and fall of Muslim League among Muslim majority areas (Pakistan) during forties was even shorter than the rise and fall of PML under Nawaz Sharif. Unfortunately the follow-up of L. A. Khan rhetoric at official level has created a large number of young Pakistanis who think of it as real, smart and intelligent way out of our problems. Very few people realize that it came handy for USA during cold war to surround Communist Russia and China either directly supported by USA or through their proxy, Saudi Arabia.....As you said, [I think this forum is meant to find the ways to save our mother tongue Punjabi which is being killed by the alien forces which have landed in Punjab on the name of religion], the alien forces currently at work are worse than before. What Punjabi culture has been through under mauraders and thugs is nothing compared to what it has in store in the era of Musharraf, Jamaatis, deobandis, wahabis, SSP, LeT,.............with green or black turbans and heightened sense of awareness at public level. A heightened sense of awareness of these folks must be a frightened sense of awareness for Punjabi culture. What they are doing to politics in Punjab today will be done to Punjabi culture tomorrow. Anytime the power-brokers in Pakistan pick a weak leader from Lahore (avoiding a Jat or Rajput-the majority Punjabis) and forcing Jats and Rajputs to support him as the leader of Punjabis or Pakistanis, whether Nawaz Sharif or Mian Azhar, Punjabis must be wary of this modus operandi. This manipulation of Punjabis and Punjabi culture is nothing new. It weakling from Lahore would be always under the thumb of power-brokers. The power-brokers fear the Jat-Rajput led alliance because they do not need power-brokers to win elections in their tribal constituencies. Feudalism is bad but it is more of a whipping boy of power-broker elite. Underlying is the fear of Punjabis controlling their own destiny. The only force that can effectively challenge and neutralize militray-mullah nexus is a government led by independent minded Jat-Rajput-Baloch etc alliance based on shared cultural values. Remember how difficult it was for military, BB and NS to detach Manzoor Wattoo from Punjab chief ministership-because he created a powerful Jat-Rajput alliance. Military will keep creating puppet Punjabi leadership who are subserviant to the whims of their masters than taking any pride in Punjabi culture. To them, Iqbal or Ch. Rehmat Ali is the model of a "good Punjabi", somebody who is not popular outside Lahore, somebody who considers his own mother tongue inferior to Urdu or Persian, somebody who does not think in terms of Punjab at all.....an ideal Punjabi Mussalmaan.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - August 13, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Dear Saeed Farani: No one was landed on Punjab on the name of religion, almost all came here for economics and natural resources. Yes you are right that in the name of religion the things are still exploiting in Punjab, but why Punjabis always played in the hands of so called imperialists. Why Punjabis don't feel attraction to their culture? Why they always feel sorry of their language and heritage? These are the prime questions. If you compare them to any other province, you will feel petty and sorry for them. But again the question WHY? Is this adaptability is in their blood or their vision is based on time-being interests? People need food, shelter, education and health as the basic needs as a nation but we always try on the individual basis. After Partition, only a Sindhi leader gave the political awakening to Pakistani people. The Punjabi leaders and elite always proved to be self centered and short sighted. WHY? It is an easy thing to blame others for your failures but to identify the core of problem and cure it is always difficult and seems to be impossible in case of Punjab.


Name: saeedfarani - August 13, 2001
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     PakistanUSA
Comments:   Punjabi Bhrao Tey Bhehno, I think this forum is meant to find the ways to save our mother tongue Punjabi which is being killed by the alien forces which have landed in Punjab on the name of religion. Here I agree with Bhai Sameer Jee and disagree with Bhain Zahra jee. The imperialists powers (any sort of invaders) always promoted here the languages which did not belong to this region. They always discouraged Punjabi, a language of masses, sufies and humanists. Is it not fact that unfortunately religions have been used here as weapons to exploit the masses and the area. The very recent example is the War between West and Soveit Union. They did seedlings here of the various sects. Read the poem of Allam Iqbal "Punjabi Musliman". Lahore, which is the heart of Punjab is captured by the religious forces. These forces were (even are today) allies of USA. Our kids are intoxicated badly and then a green turban is fixed our their heads and they they are ready to fight on the name of religion. Just see what happened in the past. What is happening here today yu must know. After Qadianies, Shiets are the next target. The polorisation in between various sects is being grown here. And it is also fact that these various sects in our area are the best lever in the hands of imperialists. They will remain until the world will finish. Or we have to educate them on the humanist grounds. So it is better to avoid talk on religion and talk about the matters of cursing humanity. They need food, shelter, education, and health facilites. They need to have civic values. Please just think how you can promote the economic, social and cultural conditions of Punjabies. You know very well that our all the sufies negate Mullahs (religious thugs). All the best wishes. Try to do something practicle to save this great language please.


Name: Mohamad Khan - August 08, 2001
E-mail: mohamadkhan@hotmail.com
Comments:   maaf kareeN menuN; maiN Dullah Bhatti sahib nuN jawaab den te bilkul hi bhul giya si. janaab, menuN badi khushi hui tuhadde alfaaz te Surjit Sakhi di ghazal parh kar; laazmi gall ai ke roman Punjabi, gurmukhi jaaN shahmukhi jehi haseeN te nahiN ho sakdi--magar phir wi menuN behad sohni lagdi ai. mujhe bahut afsos hai ke meri Punjabi is waqt itni kamzor hai ke main us mein puri tarha likh bhi nahin sakta, aur baatein bahut kam kar sakta. yeh hai angrezi ka asar. magar aap ke alfaaz to main achhi tarha se samajhta leta hoon; aur agar kuchh chhoti moti cheez samajh mein nahin aayi, to mere paas har waqt "Singh Brothers Punjabi-Angrezi Kosha" maujud hai, aur is tarha main seekh leta hoon. main apni Urdu aur Punjabi lughaton ke saath itna waqt guzaarta hoon ke mere yaar (yani dildaar) ko to jalan hoti hai ;) magar mujhe us din ka intizaar hai jab main lughat wa ghaira se bilkul azaad ho jaaunga. shayad aapke posts parh parh kar hi main seekh loonga(!) yeh to zabaan ko zinda rakhne ka ek laujawaab tareeqa hai. aur yeh bhi hai, ke jab aapne likha tha ke "asin rolla jinna marzi paiyeye sanu Punjabi parhan di aadat ajjay vi nai," main us baat ko parh kar hairaan hua ke...jab maine, pehle Urdu aur phir Angrezi mein, yehi baat kehne ki koshish ki thi, to mujhe bhi zara banaawat ka yaani "pretentious" si lagi, magar Punjabi mein bilkul sahih aur sachi lagti hai. shukriya, janaab, mere naal "sehmat" (eh wi mere lai ik navvi lafz ai) karn de waaste, te os sehmat nun sha'i (publish) karn de waaste.


Name: Zahra - August 08, 2001
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   I completely disagree with Sameer JB's logic on what should be done and how should that be done. Each person reads poetry differently. Some have the heightened sense of awareness where they want to associate their findings with their beliefs. Some lack that sense as well as awarness and they are into simple every day life. Well, both are fine in their stance - I cannot change someone's outlook toward life and vice versa. Yes, influence is possible, but individuals with independent mind like to form their own impressions based on their own experiences as well as readings. Personally, I do not find it worth investing the time to argue with anyone on religious influences over culture and vice versa. Yes, you can discuss that for the rest of your lives, but it will never come to an end. But I won't stand anyone coming and telling me how to interpret and anything to do with the right way. What is right way, btw? For whom? For that person it may be, but I may consider it good for nothing! Personal Prerogative! I would certainly be open to a well-read, well-put, thought-provoking and good argument by an insightful teacher. Anything less than that will be discarded. Personal Prerogative again :)


Name: Sameer - August 08, 2001
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   [Is it possible to negate the religion from the life of people of Punjab?...........I again emphasize that don't let any religion down for so called promotion of Punjabi culture, try to find harmony]........Who is asking to negate religion from personal lives of the people of Punjab? Try to understand the difference between religion and history of thugs in the sub-continent, who happened to be Muslims. It is absolutely essential to agree to an objective history of Punjab that is more or less acceptable to most of Punjabis, irrespective of their religions. Promotion of Punjabi culture is not a so-called issue that can be turned on and off depending on its usefulness and uselessness in terms of religious belief. If certain aspects of culture are irreconcilable with religion, culture must prevail and religion must bend to adjust to local customs, traditions, language of Kafir origin. Best way to avoid the possibility of hurting religious sensitivites is not to talk about it (passionately) on public forums specializing in the promotion of culture. Best place to discuss Heer in terms of maarfat, tasuwwaf, natural instinct, wahdat-al-wujood and sufism is some www.sufi.com. Being a masterpiece of Punjabi language and Punjabi folklore traditions, Heer by Waris Shah is important only in cultural terms.


Name: Mohamad Khan - August 08, 2001
E-mail: mohamadkhan@hotmail.com
Comments:   latin is a dead language; i took it for three years, and i can tell you that while knowledge of Latin roots has helped tremendously with my Angrezi BA, i would jump in shock if i heard anyone speak latin. therefore that argument doesn't hold any water, yaar. shukriya, however, for responding at least, mera Torontwi bhraa ;0) a dead language such as Latin by definition has no native speakers who can discuss Latin in Latin. if Latin were a living language, Latin studies would be conducted in Latin. magar punjabi boli koi laash to nahin hai. the punjabi language is not a corpse, and neither should it be treated as one. approaching Punjabi through another language is necessarily a self-defeating and degrading process. imagine, if white anglo-saxon English speakers in Britain conducted university English literature studies in Urdu; how absurd would that be? but the inverse situation seems alright to us. this is one of the many indicators of the magnitude of the linguistic/cultural dominance that the English-speaking world still exerts upon so-called "third-world" countries and their diasporas. as for your second point, re "Romanized Punjabi," your argument seems to be that easier is better, i.e. reading in English is easier for most, therefore we should discontinue writing in Punjabi or Urdu altogether. that doesn't sway me either. if easier were better, i wouldn't have learned Punjabi at all. it's much easier for me to speak in English; does that mean that i shouldn't try to speak in Punjabi? well, at least we've got a nice debate going; i wish someone else would also present their arguments on this garma-garm mauzu, in Angrezi, Urdu, Punjabi--any language you want. allah bailee, doston...


Name: Zahra - August 08, 2001
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   KKS: Good arguments!


Name: Khawaja Kamran Sadiq - August 08, 2001
E-mail: kamran_khawaja@hotmail.com
Location: Toronto Shariff,      CAN
Comments:   Greetings to all. Here are some views from the pseudo-punjabi phelwan...regarding promotion of new punjabi poetry/literature, i dont know about that...[masters are masters due to their mastery of the pen]...show me one punjabi who can produce a work like Bulleh Shah...having said that, the language must not remain stagnant, perhaps we should explore these modern works, under the shade of the classics?...anyhow, regarding the script, i do not know why u lot post in 'romanised punjabi' [or even worse, urdu...read mr. khan jeeeeee], i personally have a horrible time working through it, and feel that engrege is surely the most practical script for this forum...also, with respects to jenab mohammad khan [oy toronto veer, menu email page!] stating that punjabi should be discussed in punjabi, i do not think that scholastic studies in latin are carried out in latin, not do i think that it is imperative for discussions relating to punjabi and/or punjabiat to be carried on in any particular script/language...one final thing, i do not understand how some of our discussion brethren are content in divorcing punjabi culture from religion. i stand on my thesis that punjabi culture has evolved in such a way, so as to 'de facto' be islamic culture...also, the discussion on names seems to touch on an interesting point, as most musalman punjabis indeed do not have ethnic punjabi names...oho, this message is too long, rest later. rab ruk-0-khodahafez.


Name: Zahra - August 08, 2001
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Sukhinder: Your analogy:"Sitaroan Sae Agae Jahan Aur Bhee Hain" is interestingly pertinent; but I think if you concentrate on the second part of this verse, you will realize that the story of Heer talks about various Imtihaan "Human Struggles/Efforts" therefore it is a good start for the amateurs :) Humor aside, I think just recitation of these folklores is not enough and one needs to have a thorough understanding of the underlying aspects as well. I stated my reason for the obsession. I am sure others will have theirs. When you are a kid, then you can read stories for the heck of it or go over things without understanding the substance, but as an adult one needs to comprehend the folklores to the best of one's ability so that there is a personal gain: good understanding of the prevalent scenarios/principles. Another point: if you hear some of the latest music numbers, you will realize that many of them talk about the old songs with new theme/music, but the wordings are more or less the same. So, that should say something - Old is Gold. Regards. PS: It does not mean that one should stop looking at the new stuff. I did checkout your site. The poetry on the front page was very nice.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - August 08, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Sameer: Is it possible to negate the religion from the life of people of Punjab? Why we are so against the religion and are unable to see its optimistic side. It is not a joke, it is one of the great existing reality in Punjabi Culture. What Sufia did? We have to find the resemblances and promote the harmony between the different religions rather than to create a mess. Now you find the resemblance of Heer's characters through the history and analyzing their psychy, that's fine and you can also resemble it any human historical event. I see Waris Shah as a great poet of humanity who gives a clear vision of many horizons of human psychology. How the basic human instincts can be changed in just 200 years, I don't understand. Instincts remain the same even after thousands of years. We should keep in our mind that top most priority is always economic not the religion throughout the course of history. In Damodar Das's Heer the end is comedy whereas the rulers were invaders and writer belonged to other religion. But in Waris Shah's Heer, the end is tragic. Its interesting and can explore many things in anti-religious and anti-value minds. Sikhism is a religion and you can never deny it. Similarly accept Islam, christainity and Hinduism as religions in punjab. I again emphasize that don't let any religion down for so called promotion of Punjabi culture, try to find harmony, please. Regards


Name: Safir Rammah - August 08, 2001
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, VA     USA
Comments:   Dullah Bhatti: APNA Page is a work in progress and is still in its very initial stages. We started with Classical poets and established poets of later periods, but the idea is to represent all good Punjabi poetry, then prose, criricism, etc. At any rate, if you send me a clean copy of slections of Surjit Sakhi's poetry I will post it on APNA page. The same goes for other friends: Send me any good material in Shahmukhi, Gurmukhi or English on Punjabi literature, culture, history, current issues, etc., that is worth sharing with others.

Safir Rammah 13349 Jasper Court, Fairfax, VA 22033 703-691-6186


Name: Sameer - August 08, 2001
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Bushra Khan, DullaBhatti : Bushra, it is nice to see more and more punjabi people becoming freethinkers and open-minded and finally realizing the terrible job Pakistani media, textbooks and elite with vested interest in promoting an extremely biased twisting of history of sub-continent. Just look at the discussion of Heer. The ideology that began with TNT (two nation theory) was extrapolated into every damn area of scholarship. Only interpretation deemed pertinent was that on stanza 638. A possibility of it as an afterthought was rejected out of hand. A folk-lore provide same meaning as myths. These are myths to live by because they help consolidate identity by bridging culture to ancestors. The memory of ancestors are kept alive by folk-lores, folk songs, festivals, traditions, myths about heroes and so on. An identity can not be created out of thin air through media and textbooks. In the end everything is internal. Without human beings, religion, identity, ethnicity and culture do not exist. Human beings are seldom one issue living creature. They prioritize their interests with adoration and obsession limited to the topmost interest. If religion is the topmost priority, then obviously promotion of Punjabi culture is second, third or even last with least attachment. For the sake of topmost, lowest is first to be sacrificed. Lowest only survives for those people, if it is used to promote the topmost. Ranjha as a metaphor for Krishna (because of flute. wanjhli) may be appealing to Hindu Punjabis, but Islamist Punjabis will not accept it and Sikh Punjabis will watch it from the sideline. Is this the way to promote Punjabi culture across three different religions with undeniable animosities (thanks to history) towards each other? Similarly interpretation in terms of "maarfat" of Chishtiya sufi traditions does not help at all. In terms of afterthought, a folk-lore is dynamic. Its meaning changes with time. A person can easily assign Bhutto, Zia, Gen. Gilani, military, mohajirs, Pakistan and democracy to Heer story (Heer being Pakistan, military being Kaido and Zia as Saida Kherra); it can be Nawaz Sharif, Musharraf, Gen. Aziz, military, Pakistan and so on. The events in Indian Punjab during 1984 crisis can also be mirrored through Heer with Indra Gandhi being Kaido and so on. Heer also provides a mirror of Punjabi culture of 200 years ago as well as 500 years ago. Actual events took place during the reign of Akbar. The Heer event is contemporary to DullaBhatti's "rebellion aginst revenue system" and Shah Hussain's "rebellion against revenue system" as well as the story of Anarkali, Saleem's supposed "rebellion against the revenue system". All this happened shortly after Guru Nanak's time and Bhagti movement (another "rebellion against..........."). It is not difficult to draw a conclusion that it was a time of reawakening of masses due to the peculiar circumstances of past few centuries in which natives lost any say in the affairs of the natives. It is a termoil, a revolution in thinking. Heer playing more agressive role than Ranjha was in itself a revolutionery idea in the Turkic-Afghan-Mongol male dominated aristocracy. In the original story by Damodar Das patwari, Heer played even more agressive role. She rebelled against her family and moved in with Ranjha for six months on an island. Her brothers finally convinced her to come back and promised to marry her off to Ranjha. I suppose basic human instinct changed during the two centuries between Damodar Das and Waris Shah..............Bushra, Lyallpur will always remain Lyallpur to me, my birthplace. All the generatioins and followers of MB Qasim, Ghaznavi, Aurabgzeb and Abdali can not displace it from my deep conviction.......I will post my comments about Safir Rammah's very insightful post tomorrow........Regards, Sameer.


Name: DullaBhatti - August 07, 2001
E-mail: DullaBhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Samundar ki pata kad aas da suraj nigal jaye.
achanak soch da dareya, kitoN rasta badal jaye.
eh sach hai baraf de buttaN choN ujj kall saik aunda hai,
je parbat sulageya taaN ki pata ambar pighal jaye.
tiri chann nu phaRh ke tanaawaN paun di zidd wich,
tiray pairaN de haiThoN na teri dharti nikal jaye.
phir ohday paardarshi(transparent) hon da ki arth(matlabh) reh janda,
je sheesha pardeyaN ch ho rai sazish ch rall jaye.
----------------
(this one hints at Kashmir)
kihi zard patteyaN di daastaN, koi likh giya hai chinaar te.
na hi gun-gunayee hai paun phir, na oh rang ayea bahaar te.
ohdi kalm aap khareed ke, te biTha ke kol saleeb de,
ohnu keh rahe ne kitaab likh, tooN sammeiN de gard-o-gobaar te.
na hi khof hai, na hi rokk hai, eh te hukamraanaN da shoq hai,
ehnaN aap luttniyaN doliyaN, te hai dosh launa kahaar te.
---------------
khushian nahi te naa sahi, hauka taaN bhar sakkaN.
ainna ko haq taaN deh, tere pehloo ch mar sakkaN.
dhauhna tuhada shoq, mera shoq usaarana,
mohlat diyo,zara ko maiN, phir toN sajj sanwar sakkaN.


Name: DullaBhatti - August 07, 2001
E-mail: DullaBhatti47@yahoo.com
Location: San Jose,      USA
Comments:   Mohammad Khan: Yaar tooN naraz na ho. Lai main karda vaan gall tere naal. meri roman Punjabi te nazar maar, kiweiN di lagdi ay? sohni ay naaN? Main tuhade naal poori taraN sehmat aan ke Punjabi wich iss waqat vi bahut kujh likheya jaa ria ay par asin rolla jinna marzi paiyeye sanu Punjabi parhan di aadat ajjay vi nai. Saday wale paasay de Punjab ch ikk shaiyera ay Surjit Sakhi. Bahut sohni Ghazal likhdi ay Punjabi wich. Ussdi nawi GhazalaN di kitaab release hui ay California ch last week, "Main Sikandar NaiN". Iss kitab choN kujh shair hazir ne tuhadi nazar ch, dasna kis taran de laggay? Ikk te tukkaN tarteeb karn ch barhi mushkil ay iss Discussion Forum te par phir vi pesh ne kujh shair Surjit Sakhi ji de. (1)[Samundar ki pata kad aas da suraj nigal jaye. achanak soch da dareya, kitoN rasta badal jaye], [ eh sach hai baraf de buttaN choN ujj kall saik aunda hai, je parbat sulageya taaN ki pata ambar pighal jaye],[tiri chann nu phaRh ke tanaawaN paun di zidd wich,tiray pairaN de haiThoN na teri dharti nikal jaye], [phir ohday paardarshi(transparent) hon da ki arth(matlabh) reh janda, je sheesha pardeyaN ch ho rai sazish ch rall jaye]. (2)(this one hints at Kashmir)[kihi zard patteyaN di daastaN, koi likh giya hai chinaar te. na hi gun-gunayee hai paun phir, na oh rang ayea bahaar te], [ohdi kalm aap khareed ke, te biTha ke kol saleeb de, ohnu keh rahe ne kitaab likh, tooN sammeiN de gard-o-gobaar te],[na hi khof hai, na hi rokk hai, eh te hukamraanaN da shoq hai, ehnaN aap luttniyaN doliyaN, te hai dosh launa kahaar te],(3)[khushian nahi te naa sahi, hauka taaN bhar sakkaN, ainna ko haq taaN deh, tere pehloo ch mar sakkaN], [dhauhna tuhada shoq, mera shoq usaarana, mohlat diyo,zara ko maiN, phir toN sajj sanwar sakkaN]. Baaki phair kade. khush O janaab?


Name: Mohamad Khan - August 07, 2001
E-mail: mohamadkhan@hotmail.com
Comments:   as no one on this board will reply to my Urdu posts, as hypocritical as it makes me feel, i guess i'm forced to return to Angrezi. i agree fully with Sukhinder on the point that we focus far too much on the old poets, and what's more, we discuss and analyse their works in the wrong manner. what Sukhinder is essentially saying, from what i understand, is that rather than fossilizing the Punjabi language by diverting all our attention to the past, why don't we plug some of the poets and writers who are keeping the language alive in the face of South Asian anglophilia? by the same token, i'm asking, why on earth are we contradicting our principles by conducting this discussion in English, as though Bullhe Shah wrote in a dead language, one no longer in use? i don't see how we can possibly talk about preserving the Punjabi language when it isn't even alive on our own lips, or at the tips of our fingers as they hit the keyboard. someone once told me that Punjabi is "a beautiful language, but not at all suitable for intellectual conversations". you and i know that that's bulls—t, so why do we propagate that opinion by refusing to analyse Punjabi texts *in Punjabi*? French texts are discussed by French speakers in French. Russian texts are analysed by Russian speakers in Russian. but Punjabi speakers would rather have these kinds of discussions in English, because our anglomaniac inferiority complex dictates to us the idea that English is the language of the educated. i, primarily an English-speaker, ostensibly an "educated" young man, desperately want to learn the language that i consider to be my mother tongue; i want to be able to eat, breathe and sleep Punjabi before my children are born, so that i can pass on my father's language to them. but the fact that my elders (as most of you are) and the vanguards of Punjabi refuse to use the language themselves greatly discourages me. if no one else is willing to use Punjabi fully and freely, why should i learn, and why should my children learn? khuda de waaste, someone explain to me why we do this.


Name: Safir Rammah - August 07, 2001
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, VA     USA
Comments:   A number of comments that were filed on this Forum on the question of recognition and promotion of Punjabi identity have not been fully explored. Some folks in Pakistan get alarmed or at least feel a bit uncomfortable whenever someone talks about Punjabi identity. In particular, the question is raised: Why do we need a Punjabi identity when we are all (West Punjabis) Muslims and Pakistani's? Let me briefly put forth my personal views on the historical background of this question.
I think we need to first clear the fog of deliberate misinformation dished out by Pakistani official media and textbooks about our recent history. We need to impartially study the role of different classes and vested interest groups in Pakistan before and after partition. Until the eve of Partition, there were three dominant features highlighting the politics and mission of Muslim League:
(1) It was led by secular and modernist Muslims with a secular and non-theological mission of safeguarding Indian Muslims from the political/economical domination of Hindu majority. (2) It was opposed by most of the Muslim clergy and religious parties, including Jamaat-e-Islami (3) Its membership was predominantly drawn from Muslims of minority provinces, i.e., UP and Bihar, with almost negligible mass-scale representation from the Muslim majority provinces.
It was only after the dismal showing of Muslim League at the polls in the 1937 election that it actively sought alliances with Muslim landed/commercial classes in Punjab, Sindh and Bengal to bolster its claim of sole representation of Indian Muslims – a job made easier by the declared land-reform policies of Congress Party. These alliances were based solely on the self-interests of the ruling landed/commercial classes in the Muslim majority provinces and had nothing to do with the Islamic ideology.
After Partition, the lines for political/economical interests were re-drawn. The army high command and senior bureaucrats emerged as the most powerful interest group. Except in the Punjab, the concept of a single, overriding Islamic identity was dropped by other provinces and was replaced by ethnic/linguistic-based identities and claim of rights. It was to counter this claim of rights based on ethnic identities of Bengalis, Sindhis, Pathans and Baluchis that the idea of an all-inclusive Islamic/Pakistani identity and a new "Nazria-e-Pakistan" was invented. It was in the interest of army/ bureaucracy and landed/commercial classes to promote the idea of an Islamic/Pakistani identity at the expense of total eradication of all regional identities. At the end, they only succeeded in the Punjab alone – the home base of the majority of army officers and senior bureaucrats - no one else in Pakistan bought their self-serving ideology. It is only in the Punjab that a cultural identity based on regional/linguistic lines is generally considered as an anti-Pakistan/anti-Islam idea.
Interestingly, after the separation of Bangladesh and particularly in post-Zia period, when political lines were again redrawn between Benazir Bhutto, whose party started losing its grip in the Punjab, and Nawaz Sheriff's Muslim League who needed to firm up its base in the Punjab, that it again became fashionable to be a 'Punjabi" for Muslim League's Chauhdries.
This is of course a very brief and simplistic analysis. I just wanted to point out a couple of things to begin a discussion on this topic.


Name: DullaBhatti - August 06, 2001
E-mail: DullaBhatti47@yahoo.com
Location: San Jose, CA     USA
Comments:   I have been reading the Heer discussion with interest and in fact have dug up my copy of Ware Shah di Heer to read it again. Reading Kissas and singing Kissas in tarannum was a very popular tradition amongst youth and elders few decades back. My mother when saw above copy of Heer told me a intersting story. She came from a relatively conservative family while my grandfather's family was a bit more liberal not by any choice but just for the fact that they were all brothers. She was astonished and felt very angry when she saw Ware Shah's Heer in my Grandfather's room when she came newly wed. She told me she had never seen a guy with beard half full of dhollay sing Heer in their family. She was afraid what her paikay(her fmaily) would say if they found out my sahura sings Heer for fun:). He was in his 50's then and used to sing it once in a while when in mood. When I was grown up he gave up Waris Shah and took Baba Nanak as his companion. Although he used to tell me stories about how they used to go to see Melas upto 30 kos walking all night and singing Heer and Peelu's Mirza along the way. "Peelu puchhay shaiyar nu, kitt vall giya jahaan. beh beh gaiyean majjlassaN te lagg lagg gaye diwaan." was his favourtie line..I can still hear his voice reciting the above line and saying "eh duniya te sabh faani ay. awein banda haumein ch bhajja phirda ay".


Name: Zahra - August 06, 2001
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Dear APNA Association: I would like to thank you all for conducting a very educating and enlightening discussion session with Dr. Manzur Ejaz this past weekend. It was very nice to hear his perspectives: the depth, the direction and the intent behind various thoughts in Warish Shah's version of Heer Ranjha. It was real nice to sit in a "Pak Tea-House" kind of environment about which I have only heard from my dearest father. Thank you very much for bringing the imaginary concept that I had in my mind to reality. I sincerely appreciate it. At times, we get so busy in running with the mechanical world that we forget to stop and realize the significance/presence of the "Punj Peer" within us. These folk tales are not just folk tales only; they have much more to them. If they were only a folk-tale then we would not have cared to read them with so much enthusiasm as well as interest; and delved into the conceptual intricacies. There must be some pulling force/connection. I hope I do not have to spell that out. Sometimes, ignorance is a bliss; but most of the times it's a curse. So your study circle should be well-advertised(in general). Now, I know where the meeting is on Sundays in DC; and whenever I will be visiting my friends, family or for business reasons, I will stop by(inshallah). Lastly, I must mention that no doubt wherever we go and whichever continent we head toward; our teachers/professors are our best guides. We should never take them lightly. Also, these guides must realize that they ought to keep on defining the direction for the youth wherever they are and however they can. So the responsibility goes both ways. Reminds me of the role of Hazrat Khizr in Hazrat Moosa's life. Khizr(Ilh)kept on going with his own logic, but he had to let the student know at the end; without that there wasn't anyway for Moosa(ilh) to know. On the other hand, Hazrat Moosa(Ilh)needed Khizr(Ilh)to guide him and make him understand certain myths. Let's keep the spirit of learning and teaching alive. Thanks Again. Best Regards to All.


Name: Sukhinder - August 06, 2001
E-mail: poet_sukhinder@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.pulseofpeople.com
Location: Toronto, ON     Canada
Comments:   Hello Friends: I am finding it very strange that friends from Pakistan and other Muslim countries are only talking about Waris Shah and Buleh Shah. The Punjabi literature, art, and culture have moved from the modern age to the post-modern age. Why our friends are not talking about the things which are happening now? There is new media influencing every facet of our lives. The world is changing with such a great speed. I like Waris Shah and Buleh Shah very much. But my dear friends, let us dare to go beyond it. "Sitaron Se Age Jahan Aur Bhi Hain". With best wishes, Sukhinder Director: KNOWLEDGE EYE www.pulseofpeople.com www.geocities.com/poet_sukhinder www.geocities.com/poet_sukhinder2000


Name: Usman Qureshi - August 06, 2001
E-mail: usmee@yahoo.com
My URL: none
Location: Lahore, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Dear All... Adaab. I've been referred to this page by one of my friends abroad. I am really impressed by the work done by some great minds. I do admitt that being Panjabi's, we've never ever bothered to promote and save our mother tongue in actual sense and after looking to this, a punjabi lover can really sigh in relief. I've lived in Jeddah, K.S.A for sixteen years and have spent my golden days of childhood in the land of Arab but my parents never ever communicated with me in any other language but Punjabi. I know English, Arabic and Urdu but the fact of matter is, I feel more comfortable while expressing my thoughts in my mother tongue. I wish the APNA team all the best in future and pray that they really get what they are anticipating from it. Best regards, Usman Qureshi


Name: Javed Zaki - August 05, 2001
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Location: East Lansing, Mi     USA
Comments:   Dear Faheem! Thank you very much for correcting the wording of the phrase 'Khaada peeta laahe da, Baaqi Ahmad Shahe da'. It is a typo. REGARDS.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - August 05, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Dear Zaki: Survival of the fittest is the code under which you can easily study the history of the mankind. We always condemn the invaders on the Punjab and negating the factors of Punjab's weaknesses. Why the invaders most of the times invaded us successfully? Why we are still incapable to defend us from the non-punjabi rulers and their exploitations? These are the bitter questions with much bitter answers. I am not taking any side of Talibans but unfortunately Punjab experienced the same sufferings by Punjabis against Punjabis in 19th and 20th centuries just on religious basis. What was that? We have to make us strong rather than condemning very specific invaders or all the time blaming others for our sufferings. It is really a very bitter topic and very hard to find the answer. So if we rise the invading question, we will find we are all invaders, not pure Punjabis. Which of course not better for promotion of Punjabi culture but destructing and messing all the process, so please don't bound it for different races or strict standards. Let it be open with open arms. The invaders who just Invaded us for looting, they can never be appreciated from any sense. But the people who came from outside and now part of our culture, they are Punjabis and we are proud on them.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - August 05, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Dear Zaki, first of all please correct the wording of phrase which is " Khadda peeta Laahye (peasant) da…. Baaqi Ahmad shaaye da. Secondly, I don't use my own wordings, it all explained by Shah Sahib. Heer became bhabi after marriage with Saida and made conspiracy with Sehti (nannan) to get Ranjha against the norms of the society. It is a very fine explanation of instinct which compels the human to do any thing under its trance. You know better the number of instincts and their matching with the different characters in Heer Waris Shah. It is the greatness of this creation that it gives almost complete understanding of human nature beside the angel from which you observe it. No matter from which approach or which class you belong, it really grips your inner. As far as historiography is concerned, it is a cruel phenomenon and your ideals often break. Regards.


Name: Javed Zaki - August 05, 2001
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Location: East Lansing, MI     USA
Comments:   [Bushra, Sameer and Zahra] Faheem is stuck with a big contradiction in his analysis. His analytical approach towards culture is evolutionary (dynamic) but his interpretation of literature (an important aspect of the culture) through the use of 'metaphysical' approach is subjective, narrow and static in character. His interpretation of #635 bund of Heer is completely incomprehensible. In the main body of this love epic, Waaris Shah nowhere characterized 'Bhaabhi' the way Faheem did. There is definitely an element of Jealousy and subtle enmity between 'Bhaabhi' and 'Devar' which is discussed in the earlier part of the Heer. However, it can only be interpreted in the context of the Punjabi sub-institution of 'Sharika', a consequent of the feudalist property relations. I hope Faheem did not refer here 'Heer' the main character fo the story. She became the Bhabhi of Sehti (having been married to KheRa forcibly against her will) and as the story goes, helped her to elope with Murad Baluch. As a matter fact, there is a group of obscurantist chauvinist Punjabi Writers in Lahore who tend to characterize Heer (and Ranjha, too) on those lines. Those supporters of feudal cultural values take Heer as the spoiler of her family honor and take Kedo a great hero who by killing Heer with poison established the so-called family honor. On the contrary, Heer can be taken as a symbol of struggle for freedom for women who heavily suffer (soico-psychologically and physically) under the vicious norms of feudal society. A revolutionary character who dared to challenge the women enslaving norms of a male-dominating/chauvinist culture. So, rather interpreting Waaris Shah's Heer in an obscurantist context, let there be a literary paradigm/perspective which is objective and progressive. Bushra and Zahra, what about 'feminist' perspective? (just a suggestion, seriously no male paternalism) (Let it be clear here, my definition of the term 'feminism' only refers to the struggle to achieve and establish gender equality in socio-political and economic spheres of the society). ……………(2) Now, as for Ghouries, Abadalies, and Durranies are concerned, what king of culture did they bring to India; a culture of aggression, destruction and plunder. People of Punjab became very tired of their frequent raids. A famous Punjabi phrase depicts this situation very expressively "Khaada pita raahe da…Baaqi Ahmad Shahe da." Talbans (their folks) are doing the similar vicious acts of cultural molestation (remember what did they do to the centuries old statues of Buddha and other cultural artifacts). Their co-workers in Pakistan has let loose a hell for many peaceful sections of the society. In general, their indoctrination in a special brand of religio-cultural ideology has created serious negative implications for cultural identities of natives of Pakistan. Let us appreciate those people of Pakistan who are fighting against these tendencies of religious chauvinism and obscurantism and are struggling to establish a democratic progressive society (and culture). They are our heroes of today. ………(3)Your comment about the cause of struggle of people during the colonial days is again frivolous as pointed by Sameer, also. The 'revenue collection' was a rallying factor of the struggle against the suppressing colonial rule. The real cause was the sense of alienation created by the destruction of the material and non-material aspects of culture of people. You also referred to a situation of political stability during the colonial period. It is a very simplistic explanation. You are unconsciously or by-design ignoring the real political factors in this regard. The British colonialist prime objective was to plunder the resources of India for the benefit of their country of origin, like all colonialist powers (It is an ongoing process only different in the art of plundering). Now it could have only been possible in a situation of so-called political stability. It is a known historical reality that a minor act of rebellion that was deemed resistive to their plundering was brutally crushed (Remember the events of 'the freedom movement of 1857, the JalliaaNwala massacre, the shahadats of Ahamd kharal and his comrades-in-arms like Murad Fatyana and Buudroo Mussali etc. who created hell for colonialists in Punjab during 1857. Remember Shaheed Udham Singh (whose bursi was celebrated a couple of days before) and Shaheed Bhagat Singh. It is highly misconceived notion of political stability. In reality, it was a tormenting situation of fear and silence created by colonial terror and suppression…………. Anyway, I am posting another poem to honor our cultural heroes (Dulla Bhatti, Ahamd Kharal and Bhagat Singh). Enjoy it. (REGARDS)…………………………………………………………………………….. [TANDOOR BKHAAO TANDOOR]...Tandoor bakhaao tandoor...gallaaN chhaddo aahre laggo...gille chhoade v bhukh posan....Tusi dhooni val khiaal rajhaao….Dhooni di laat da manara binsi...Te aale davalle diaaN saariaaN chungaaN kirmo-kirmi kirson...Dhoni di laat nabhar gabhrooaan de piR baj poan da nishaan bansi....Maae bakhat bhare…Nabhar shaheedaaN de ven nieN pi de… OnhaN de dhole gaai de ne...OhnaaN de naaN ratte jhandiaaN te likh ke aazadi di sik noon chaRhave chaRai de ne...OnhaaN de naaN bhkhde mathiaaN te likh ke khalqat vichgum thi jaai da ae ...EveeN bulsi dive tooN diva….OhnaaN de naaN jangal baileaaN te wassan waale badalaaN de monhaaN te likh choRi da ae....EveeN Dulla Bhatti, Ahmad kharal te Bhagat Singh jae nabhar gabhrooaaN de jhund ugsan....Tandoor bakhaan da unt mudh...Te fer paksan roat..


Name: Safir Rammah - August 05, 2001
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, VA     USA
Comments:   Friends: I was out of town for two weeks and just came back last night. This morning I tried to post a message on the Discussion Forum and found that the program is not working properly. After checking the perl script for the Discussion Forum I called APNA's web hosts. They finally figured out that some APNA files, including the Discussion Forum files were moved to a different server and that is why the perl script was not running properly. If you had tried to post amessage during the last couple of days, you may have either received an error message or your message was not posted. Anyway, we have fixed the bug and you should be able to post your messages. Do let me know at rammah@apnaorg.com if it doesn't work for you.


Name: Bushra Khan - August 03, 2001
E-mail: khanbushra@hotmail.com
Location: New York, NY     USA
Comments:   Zahra: I am sorry but I disagree with you when you said to Mahmud Fahim in your posting of August one "Your argument to Sameer on names was also very pertinent." May be you were not following the discussion between Sameer and Mahmud. Where Sameer had correctly pointed out the fact which all of us know very well and that is why we are here that we West Punjabis blindly take the history written from the invader's and foreign ruler's perspective as gospel and do not celebrate our own heroes. As an example Sameer pointed out that even when we have the opportunity to re-name our cities, (for example Lyallpur to Faisalabad) we always look for foreign heroes instead of giving due recognition to our native heroes. The whole point was that we are either ashamed of our Punjabi identity and heritage or think that being proud of it is not politically correct. Mahmud, in his usual zeal to propagate religion, besides saying that all of our native heroes were rebels against "revenue system" so should be totally discounted and besides taking very strong exception to any criticism of his great Islamic heroes like Mahmud Ghaznavi, Ahmad Abdali and Aurangzeb, finally took a personal cheap shot at Sameer by asking "Sameer : Is your name Punjabi?" In the context of the discussion, this was a very inappropriate and irrelevant question.


Name: suman kashyap - August 02, 2001
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Location: la, ca     USA
Comments:   a lot of different aspects of 'being punjabi' are discussed in this forum - i am jumping in with a few thoughts of my own. being a punjabi is not a religion (hindu, muslim, sikh, isaai) nor a nationality (ind, pak, us or brit). it is not an inheritance either. so we really cannot hold somebody else (ma, baap, mulla, politician) responsible for making us 'true punjys'. figure it out folks - if you want to be one, just work on it. read, listen, speak, and sing! my experience, at least so far, is that it has been a lot of fun learning about my roots. also i wish we could do away with every script and instead have all the literature on cd's or tape - jhagada hi khatam. and everyone would GET IT.


Name: Mohamad Khan - August 02, 2001
E-mail: mohamadkhan@hotmail.com
Location: Toronto,      Kanedda
Comments:   Khwaja ji, Toronto shareef ton aaye ne? ;op main bhi maanta hoon ke fi'l-haal Punjabi mein likhne ke liye Gurmukhi behtareen hai. magar Shahmukhi bhi bekaar ki nahin hai is mu'aamle mein. pata nahin ke Baba Farid, Bullhe Shah wa ghaira ne apni shayari ko tahreer kiya ke nahin, lekin itna to maaloom hai ke Sultan Bahu aur digar shaairon ne yaqeenan apni tasaanif ko kaaghaz par shakl di hai. aur mumkin hai ke Gurmukhi aur Shahmukhi donon ko ek hi zamaane se istimaal kiya jaa raha hai. masla zahir hai ke ham bewaquf maghribi Punjabiyon ko hamaari apni boli ke liye koi muhabbat nahin hai, chunaanche sirf Sikh log reh gaye jinhon ne hamaari khubsurat zubaan ko seenon se lagayi hai. magar chonke Shahmukhi ka istimaal itna kam hai, is buraai ke baais yeh achhai bhi hai ke Shahmukhi ki taraqqi ka bahut ganjaaish reh gayi hai. ab hame aise karna chahiye ke Punjabi Shahmukhi ko ek hi meyaar ke banaan chahiye, yaani "standardize" karna chahiye, taake woh Gurmukhi ki tarha bilkul sawti ("phonetic") ho jaye. zabar, zer, jazm wa ghaira ki zuroorat hogi, magar us ke bawajud yeh itna mushkil kaam to nahin hai. maine chand Shahmukhi kitaabon mein ek sakht "nuun," yaani Gurmukhi ki "NaNa" (bolNa, jaagaN) bhi dekhi hai jis par ek nuqte ke bajaae do nuqte hain. yeh naya tareeqa bhi zuroori hai. ek aur bhi masla hai, ke sakht "L" (kaaLa) na Gurmukhi mein hai, na Shahmukhi mein. yeh bhi hamaari "alif be" aur "saasaa haahaa" mein shareek hona chahiye. magar yeh kaam kaun karega?


Name: Zahra - August 01, 2001
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Mahmud Faheem: Thank you for the description. Your argument to Sameer on names was also very pertinent. I find many being swept away with these names. I have been stopped many times by colleagues, friends and others thinking that I am Persian, just because of my surname. I would end up telling people that despite the fact that Persian Language was given a lot of importance in the family by my late grandfather - who was a linguist and a scholarly man, with a masters in oriental languages, aside from law and english literature; I am a Punjabi with paternal ancestry originally from Gujranwala City and maternal from Lahore. It's interesting how people form views just by names. My arab friends would give me a lot of respect for my first name and the persians get thrilled to see both my first and last name. Well, it's amusing to hear interesting perspectives. Thank you for your assistance in clarifying my understanding. Regards.


Name: Khawaja Kamran Sadiq - July 31, 2001
E-mail: kamran_khawaja@hotmail.com
Location: Toronto Sharif, ON     CAN
Comments:   Hello jee. I have now concluded that Punjabi is not suited for the Greaco-Roman and/or the Arabo-Persian scripts, respectively. We can assume that the language first took the script known as 'gurmukhi', and it seemed to work. Fact of the matter is, that the other scripts mentioned are not suited for the phonemes of Punjabi. Alas, is Punjabi doomed to remain an oral tradition among the majority of ethnic Punjabis [ie.Musalmans] ? Anyhow, that is all for now, curious as to why almost none of you lot respond to my comments, inshallah next time i will say something so overly controversial, that I wil surely get responses. bruaaaaaaaaah. ok, salams from the toronto gabru phelwan.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 31, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Zahra :Go to line 10 of the last bund where Shah Sahib says that Bhabi is the sexual instict. The expulsion of Adam and Eve from Heaven is actually describing here. When under the trance of instinct, Adam is going to expel from Heaven, he is saying to instincts that now when he will try to come back over here(Heaven), "Waris Shah di baag na morriyya jay". He is coming from metaphysical to physical world with the hope of reunion with the Divinity. It is one point of view and others surely have their owns. I will feel great if hear from other. Regards


Name: Mohamad Khan - July 30, 2001
E-mail: mohamadkhan@hotmail.com
Location: Toronto,      Canada
Comments:   Mahmud sahib, for the sake of answering your post, i will temporarily revert to my "first language," English. i am about to enter my second year of study at the University of Toronto, my program of study being English. modesty aside, i am quite proficient in the English language, as evidenced, i think, by my high marks. i moonlight as a journalist (writing in English), covering the music of the South Asian diaspora. my reviews are available for your perusal at www.mybindi.com. i was born in Toronto and i've only been to Pakistan once in my life, when i was 10 years old, and only for 2 weeks. even then, i couldn't communicate with any of my relatives. i can't remember a time when i didn't speak English, and although my parents tell me that i spoke Urdu as a toddler, as far as my memory serves me, i have been unable to speak Urdu--let alone read or write in it--since going to Kindergarten. i'm sure that i have never been able to speak Punjabi. but, Mahmud sahib, you have to understand the dilemma that i faced once i'd decided, in high school, that i was going to pursue an English major in University. by that time, i was old enough to understand that my decision meant a complete surrender to a language which i could never claim as my mother tongue, and i began to feel rather ashamed--i still feel ashamed--that i speak, read and write better in English than i do in either Urdu or my maan boli, Punjabi. for that reason, i resolved not to complete a traditional Eurocentric English program, but a more or less post-colonialist one. (i don't neccessarily agree even with the term "post-colonialism," but that's another masla altogether.) i am currently studying Arabic and Farsi at university, alongside my English Lit courses, and trying to re-acquire Urdu and Punjabi in my spare time. i have also taught myself to read the Gurmukhi script. after i have completed my BA, i hope to pursue a Master's Degree in comparative literature, with a focus on Punjabi, and a bit of Urdu perhaps. more importantly, i'm doing all this because i want my children to grow up speaking Punjabi, the language closest to my heart. i'll choose not to take offence at your post, which clearly implies that i'm a liar; us ke bawujud, main aapko shukriya ada karunga ke aapne meri urdu ko parh kar samajh li ke dar asl mujhe Urdu hi bolne ki aadat hai; is ka matlab hai ke meri urdu bahut hi achhi ho gayi hai. yeh ghaliban meri ma'shuq yani "girlfriend" ka asar hai, aur Saadat Hasan Manto ka, chonke main aaj kal unke mazaameen parhta rehta hoon (aur bada mazaa aata hai unki tasaanif ko parh kar). yaqeenan aap bhi jaante hain ke aaj kal angrezi zubaan ke aalimon ke darmiyaan mein ek dilchasp sa bahs jaari hai, aur bahs ka mauzu hai ham log; yani ham log jin ke abaaoajadaad ne ek arse ke liye maghrib ki zer-e-hukumat zindagi guzaari. bahs yeh hai: woh log jinhon ne itni der maghribi hukoomat, adab aur zabaan se azaad hone ke liye sakht koshishein ki thi, unke awlaad angrezi zabaan ko ek but banaa kar us ke aage puja kyun karte hain? main un logon mein shaamil hoon jo samajhte hain ke maadhri zabaanon ko zinda rakhna faidah mand aur zuroori kaam hai, aur is liye unko istimaal karna zuroori hai, jab bhi moqa mile. te janaab, hun mainun jhootha aakhn de bajae mainun daseen ke tussi punjabi boli nun istimaal kyun nahin karde?


Name: Zahra - July 30, 2001
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Can anyone please tell me what the meaning of the last line of 15th stanza - Pg 4 ? Thanks


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 30, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Sukhinder: Welcome! It's a matter of praise that you are a poet and feeling so deep in this society. I just visited your website, heartiest congradulations!!! I can't read gurmukhi but the pictures and symbols you created along with your poems are amazing. Here after reading your beautiful and thought provoking editorial, I want to say that we should keep our roots in our minds so we can be able to solve the problems you identify, otherwise we will become parasites. Best Regards.


Name: Sukhinder - July 30, 2001
E-mail: poet_sukhinder@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.geocities.com/poet_sukhinder
Location: Toronto, ON     Canada
Comments:   Hello Friends: Thanks for providing this discussion forum. Being a Canadian Punjabi writer and new media artist, I will be interested in initiating a dialogue among the punjabi new media artists around the globe. In Canada there are not that many new media artists yet. The Canadian punjabi community is not aware of the new media. Very few people are into it yet. So far as the Canadian Punjabi writers are concerned, they are also living in the similar mental state. They are also living in the world of the traditional media. Here are some of the creative web sites, I am working on. I will be glad, If the new media artists, writers, painters can visit these sites and write their comments in my guest books. This will be a way to exchange our views with each other on the punjabi new media: www.pulseofpeople.com www.geocities.com/poet_sukhinder www.geocities.com/poet_sukhinder2000 Sukhinder E-mail: poet_sukhinder@hotmail.com Toronto, Canada


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 30, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Folks: It is latest news in Daily, The Nation dated July 30, 2001 about Pak Tea House. By Our Staff Reporter LAHORE–The Pak Tea House, a meeting place for poets and writers was locked once again on Sunday evening prior to a Halqa Arbab-e-Zauq weekly meeting there. According to the participants, when they reached the Pak Tea House at 7 pm to hold a meeting, they found it locked. However, a notice was pasted that it would remain closed on Sundays. The meeting participants had to stand outside at footpath in rain. Later, the meeting of the Halqa was held at Chaupaal, Nasir Bagh. The writers and poets expressed their dismay over the closure of the House. The President Action Committee of the Halqa, K Eraj Mubarak, has announced to launch a campaign for the House opening.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 30, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Mr. Khan: it's very sad that you are just posing something. Your sentences and vocabulary of Urdu and punjabi doesn't show that your first language is English. You used word "angrezi" which shows your false statement. Beside this there are more than 20 words and their usage in sentences shows you are telling all lies. I am sorry to say all this but it disturbs me that even as an educated person (which seems), you don't have the courage to come straight.


Name: Gurmir Kaur - July 30, 2001
E-mail: gurmitkaur@hotmail.com
Location: Toronto, Ontario     Canada
Comments:   Dear Friends! Salaam?Sat Siri Akal/Namaste. I am really surprised that we are promoting Latin script. This was invented by the British Rulers in the army. I think we still have a influnce of British rulers. We should think that being a Punjabi we have to learn Roman script. Our Punjabi is very old.Gurmukhi script is one of the 12 or 14 languges of India that was fully developed before the King Ashoka was ruler. Now we have to forget it. Same must be about Shahmukhi script. New generation is more smart they can learn more languages. Everywhere we should make a collective arrangements to teach our children the Gurmukhi or Hindi and shahmukhi script. We should keep this in mind APNA is non-religious organations and keep our religious views separate from these institutions. We must become more broad minded. Even the during the British Rule people like us who had the education in that period learned Gurmukhi,Shahmukhi,Hindi and English. All these people when they came to these countries they are very successful. I cannot think about what is the problem of our children that they cannot learn our script.Only thing is we donot think about and so unable to sort out how to mobolise them to learn our language. I think we all must think about how we have to sort out this problem. I really appreciate APNA the organisations and the organisers speacially Dr. Manzur Ejaz. I am not a writer so cannot express my views properly .That is all for today. Long live East and West Punjab.


Name: Mohamad Khan - July 29, 2001
E-mail: mohamadkhan@hotmail.com
Comments:   salaam/sat sri akal. bis saal ka hoon; canada mein paida hone aur yahan saari umr guzaarne ki wajha se meri pehli zabaan angrezi hai. faqat chand saal pehle maine urdu seekhna shuru kiya tha, te hun urdu de naal naal punjabi parhni wi shuru kiti ae. magar zahir hai ke meri punjabi abhi itni achhi nahin hai ke main usko istimaal karun; par angrezi mein likhne ke bajae kam az kam main apni tuthi phuti urdu mein likhne ki koshish karunga jo punjabi ke baad meri pasandeedah zabaan hai. agar mere alfaaz kuch ajeeb se lagte hain, to ghaliban meri lughat ki qusur hai. ek baat meri samajh mein bilkul nahin aayi. aap log, jo punjabi ke mahbub aur najaat dehinde bante hain, khud hi punjabi mein kyun nahin likhte? badi ta'ajjub ki baat hai, aur mujhe to taqreeban munaafiqat lagti hai. mujh jaise bechaaron ko aur bhi ta'ajjub lage gi, jinhon ne apni maan boli ko bachpan mein kho di, aur jin ko ma'lum hai ke zabaan hamesha khud bakhud zinda nahin reh sakta--us ko istimaal karna zuroori hai, jab bhi moqa mile. mukhtasaran agar aap ko punjabi aati hai, to punjabi mein hi likhiye, aur agar mujh jaise taalibon ko samajh nahin aata to hum puchh lenge aur seekhenge, warna to ta'leem kaise haasil karenge? agar aap nahin chahte ke punjabi boli jawaanon ke zabaanon par bhi zinda rahe, to zuroor angrezi mein likhte jaaiye, aur punjabi zabaan ko heer ranjhe ke saath dafan kijiye.


Name: Zafar N. Daud - July 29, 2001
E-mail: znd99@hotmail.com
Location: sialkot,      pakistan
Comments:   i am just visiting the page. there is a lot of discussion about past. i want to read about future. i will give a detailed point of view


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 29, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Sameer : Is your name Punjabi? No it is not. Now you can have 101 arguments to justify it. All the Punjabi poets have either Arabic or Persian names. It is not the question that name can bring you the cultural strength or not. You are talking about USA, there are many cities over here on the names of saints or the names of home towns of settlers. In your last posting you said that Punjab cooperated British to get benefits, so the same in case of Faisalabad. Bhutto got much from Arabs by just changing Lyall to Faisal. Bhutto knew very well the cultural values, so he did not try to change any local name. As far as Bhaattis and Kharrals are concerned, historically they are Rajput tribes. They were migrated from Rajhistan to Sind and than traveled up side along the Indus River. Most of them accepted Islam at Uch and then their different braches spread over along Ravi, Chenab and other rivers. So if we rise the invading question, we will find we are all invaders, not pure Punjabis. Which of course not better for promotion of Punjabi culture but destructing and messing all the process, so please don't bound it for different races or strict standards. Let it be open with open arms. The invaders who just Invaded us for looting, they can never be appreciated from any sense. But the people who came from outside and now part of our culture, they are Punjabis and we are proud on them. The families who suffered in 1947, they were not as religious as now they are. You know well the harmony among the Punjabis before 1947. The great sufferings compelled them to take shelter under religion. When Punjabis were masacared by Punjabis, the two nation theory became stronger in the suffered people. Statistically you can see that majority of Mullahs and Immams in Punjab belong to East Punjab, the migrated people. Locals are still believe in Punjabiat.


Name: Sameer - July 28, 2001
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Thanks Bushra Khan and Javed Zaki for nice comments. From Dulla Bhatti to Pindi Bhattian to Lyallpur to Sandal Bar. Add that to two Lyallpurias, Rai Ahmad Hayat Khan Kharral and Bhagat Singh. And the heroic fight by Malawas against Alexander the Great in Multan and by Porus along Jhelum river and Raja Jaipaul stand against Mahmud Ghaznavi in Gandhara and Punjab and Sher Singh stand against British in and around Gujrat are few of the nuggets from the proud history of Punjabis. Without asking people of Punjab or Lyallpur, one day Z. A. Bhutto changed the name to Faisalabad and not a single Punjabi objected or protested. Not that Lyall was a Punjabi but what the hell King Faisal did for Punjab or Lyallpur? Why change pur to abad? These things seem minor and benign if taken in isolation. But such actions demonstrate the imposition of non-Punjabi or even non-Pakistani culture on people without asking their consent. In US no government will even think of changing New York to New Vetican or New Zion for religious reasons. In the last 20 years, an increase of the usage of Al- before many businesses (e.g., Noor Karyana Store to Al-Noor......etc) and -o- for "and", -e- for "of" further changed to -ul- since taleban successes. Is it evolution of Punjabi language for Punjabi Muslims? We already have enough problem uderstanding highly Perianized Urdu and now being replaced by Arabized Urdu. Who knows with this trend one day Ghalib's "ser zer-e-bar-e-minnat-e-darbaN kiye howey" will be read as "ser zer-ul-bar-ul-minnat-ul-darban kiye howey". Have we discovered our Islamic heritage since Ziaul-Haque rule? Sherdil Gill: We have always been in love with our Sufis and Saints. That has not helped promotion of Punjabi culture. That did not stop Punjabis from butchering each other in 1947. It was only because we stopped giving due importance to our culture. Sufis teachings and poetry are beautiful but they makes only a small segment of our culture and heritage.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 28, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Mittro :Keh khayal ay hun gal Baat Roman rasm-ul-khat witch Punjabi witch ho jaye te changga naiN raway ga? Ekan assi zara khul kay apna apna vichar dey lanN gay. Kuj mushkal tey hoye gi par ainj te hondda ee aiy. Allah Bailee.


Name: Zahra - July 27, 2001
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Correction: It should be "reading" than "read."


Name: Zahra - July 27, 2001
E-mail: Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Bushra: I am looking forward to read your response to Mahmud Faheem regarding verse#638. :D :) :D Anxiously Waiting :) Take Care.


Name: SHAHID GILL - July 27, 2001
E-mail: WALI_96@YAHOO.COM
Location: LONDON, ON     CANADA
Comments:   I feel proud to see a pure punjabi culture site on the internet,its a nice effort and the work of our sufis and saints can help us determine our goal of life, we should always try to practise sufis teachings like MIAN SAHIB, WARIS SHAH, BABA BULHE SHAH, I think if we follow them then we will be able to realize the reality of life.


Name: Bushra Khan - July 27, 2001
E-mail: khanbushra@hotmail.com
Location: New York, NY     USA
Comments:   Forgot to add Sameer in my thank you note. Very impressed by your clear thinking. And Naima, welcome to the discussion forum. My dear Fahim, I owe you the reply on your repeated reminder of band 638. Just wait.


Name: Bushra Khan - July 27, 2001
E-mail: khanbushra@hotmail.com
Location: New York, Ny     USA
Comments:   Friends, Specially Zahra, Saeed Farani and Javed Zaki: thanks for your thoughts on my question on Punjabi vs. Pakistani Identity. I am convinced that they are fully complimentary, not mutually exclusive as some people think. How can there be a Pakistani identity without a Punjabi identity when more than 60% Pakistani's are Punjabis? There is much confusion on this issues that needs to be cleared up. Would anyone ever say to a Pathan that you are no longer a Pathan since we are now all Pakistani's? So stop speaking Pushto or being proud of your Pathan culture and heritage. Such rubbish!


Name: Khawaja Kamran Sadiq - July 26, 2001
E-mail: kamran_khawaja@hotmail.com
Location: juvejuve, ON     CAN
Comments:   OHO...here goes, perhaps i will be demonised, but anyhow. Why does it seem to me that many of those partaking in this discussion forum seem to somehow hold that Islamic culture/society is somehow at ends with Punjabi culture? The use of words like 'invaders' does well to explain this theme, namely how [it seems] that many Punjabi people of today have taken the opinion that religion and culture are polorised. Personally, it always stuns me to find people able to quote verse from a poet, with such passion that should in fact be reserved for scripture. My plea to all Punjabi brethren, is to understand that the nature of your culture is that of Islam. Our Sardar and Hindu friends might wish to claim otherwise, but surely any objective review would find the above. Keep everything in context, use poetry and literature as tools, by which to come closer to Him. Ok, thats enough for now. KAMRAN


Name: Javed Zaki - July 26, 2001
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Location: East Lansing, MI     USA
Comments:   [Ref: Sameer]. We certainly need to idealize our own heroes. They resisted onslaughts of foreign invaders with their blood. I paid homage to one of the outstanding among them in the following. I have recently completed a poem titled [Jagge te Nazaam Lohaar da Dhola]. I will try to post it some day………. [Dulle Bhatti di Vaar]… Dhol vajainda dhol… Dhol vajainda Dulle da… Te nachde niggar kammiN kaame… Nachde raaTh mosalli… Sach surt di jalli… Ser te paggaR ratRe soohe… Keser range chole… Naarad uThda kavaR vaT ke… Jhullan vaa varoole… Dhol vajainda dhol… Dhol vajainda nabhar da… Te nit vajainda Saandal baar… Aao nichie addi maar… Naabhar rung jamaaye… Pittal koke vinhi kaali daang ghomaaye… Laange laaye…


Name: Javed Zaki - July 26, 2001
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com/poetry/zaki
Comments:   [Ref: Sameer]. We certainly need to idealize our own heroes. They resisted onslaughts of foreign invaders with their blood. I paid homage to one of the outstanding among them in the following. I have recently completed a poem titled "Jagge te Nazaam Lohaar da Dhola". I will try to post it some day. Dulle Bhatti di Vaar Dhol vajainda dhol Dhol vajainda Dulle da Te nachde niggar kammiN kaame Nachde raaTh mosalli Sach surt di jalli Ser te paggaR ratRe soohe Keser range chole Naarad uThda kavaR vaT ke Jhullan vaa varoole Dhol vajainda dhol Dhol vajainda nabhar da Te nit vajainda Saandal baar Aao nichie addi maar Naabhar rung jamaaye Pittal koke vinhi kaali daang ghomaaye Laange laaye


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 26, 2001
E-mail: agsmz!@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Dear Sameer: It is a great tragedy that we are bounding the culture into some specific standards. Culture is an alive and dynamic phenomenon and if we isolate it form surroundings and changes, it will die. Its just like a seedling and new things provide it nourishment. Punjabi culture is very absorbing, dynamic and alive. It has the potential for integrity. As a student of history, I always try to see all the factors and prospects of any action, so that was one way to see Jasrat, Dullah or Kharral. Do you have any other dimension to justify their actions on the basis of culture ? Why the majority didn't take notice of that injustice? You know well that the attempt of independence in 1857 is also equally called rebel against british, which technically is not wrong but emotionally…… . As far as streets, towns, parks are concerned, yes all the provinces have almost the same ratio of the naming. In Punjab there are many towns on the name of different local personalities such as Toba Tek Singh, Qila Deedar Singh, Sargodha, Hasanabdal, Nankana Sahib, Haripur etc. The ammunition question is actually related to famous two-nation theory in which both nations are using their religious myths and names of warrior heroes. These are the flames on both sides. I personally think that we can make the picture of our culture more beautiful if we accept all the factors, rather than negating something. If we start to negate factors which we don't like, they will probably become most destructing for the next generations. "Every thing has its own shade which enhances beauty and harmony". Regards.


Name: Sameer - July 26, 2001
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Mahmud Fahim: Punjabis and British Raj relationship was mutually benefiting. Punjab progressed more in 100 years of Raj than the previous 1000 years. A promotion of culture is meaningless without taking pride in the achievements of Punjabis in all other disciplines, because it will be less passionate. A passion for the promotion of culture has to be synergistic with passion in other areas. Otherwise we will be stuck with discussion limited to Bund 638 of Heer Waris Shah. No nation has suceeded in promoting their culture when all of their heroes are of non-native origin. In Pakistan, we are obsessed with not naming our streets, towns, parks, misssiles, tanks, and anything of importance, in honor of any native. They have to be Afghan, Persian or Arab. It does not bode well for the promotion of culture because Punjabi culture is much more than just sufis poetry in Punjabi language. In terms of clash of cultures, Punjabi culture should not be permanently sitting on actively recieving end against culture with built-in resistance to change to local conditions. All cultures must play the game by the same set of rules. Sindhis, Pathans, Balochis and other culturists upgrade their heroes through literature and folklore; Punjabis tend to downgrade theirs by calling them rebels for the fear of elevating them to the level of Arabic/ Persian/ Turkish/ Afghan or UPite heroes of Punjabis. Only we, love to name Sikandarabad and not Porusabad, change all Pur and pura to abad in city names. We could not find a single Punjabi hero to name Lyallpur after him/ her. Yes, we are passionate in promotion of Punjabi culture but would not ask for naming even a street in Lyallpur to name after Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan-his hometown. Ladies and gentlemen, efforts to promote Punjabi language among Punjabis will not succeed without taking pride in Punjabiat.


Name: Mahmud FAhim - July 25, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Ref to Sameer:Migration is a universal phenomenon in the human history either individual (like you and me) or massive (invasions). Its all due to economic, political, religious or natural factors. Unfortunately, Punjab was always under invasions and you can find hardly a generation who did not see invasion on Punjab. The History of invasions is spread over thousands of years but why we seek only these invasions in the era when Muslims invaded. Its not justified. On the other side when we talk about the cultural development and poetry, we see a lot of Muslims or Sikhs. Why not the other Punjabis before these two have no solid contribution in these matters, or if it is than why we are not recognizing them. As a historian, one should count all the factors. Jasrat, Dullah Bhatti or Kharrall, they were all rebels against the revenue system not for the sake of Punjabi culture. Historically if you don't disturb the peasant in the agriculture society, you will enjoy the rulership. Britishers got this point so the people of Punjab did not play a vital role against Britishers. Whenever you meet an old Punjabi, he still remembers the British era and praises it. Punjab gave the most soldiers to the British Army for the World Wars which shows their confidence on government.Punjabi Elite played major role. Regards


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 24, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Zahra and Bushra: Go to the 11th line of Bund 638, Shah Sahib clearly says that "Jog Aurat hai Kan Parr jis naiN sub Aang Bhaboot rammaya ee". So let us talk on the script rather than personal reservations. Regards


Name: Sameer - July 24, 2001
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Location: New York,      USA
Comments:   Saeed farani and Amer Akmal: I have never liked the idea of arranging identities in order. Each identity signifies different area of importance. Pakistani or Indian isentity is national and political whereas Punjabi identity is cultural. Since this site is dedicated to the promotion of Punjabi culture, Punjabi identity here is not in competition with national or state identity. One of the way to promote Punjabi identity is to know and admire Punjabi heroes in culture as well as history. In this way, Punjabi identity transcends other forms of identities. Haneef Ramey identified five great Punjabi heroes in one of his books. They are Raja Porus, Maharaja Ranjit Singh, Rai Ahmed Hayat Khan Kharral, Bhagat Singh and Dulla Bhatti. One can add another large number of Punjabis including Guru Nanak, Waris Shah, Bulley Shah, Shah Hussain, Khawaja Ghulam Farid, Hargobind Khurana, Abdul Salam, Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, Noor Jehan,................ Few months ago I tried to introduce Jasrat Gakkhar (or Khokhar) as another hero of Punjab. All we know, thanks to our lopsided history textbooks, him known for his ravages. Here is an excert from it. [This is the story of a forgotten hero who fought all his life against the Turkish/ Afghan rulers and in all likelihood was a Muslim of sub-continent origin. Most people might have never heard of his name because of no folklore, no epic, no mention in the textbooks and no street/ town/ city is named after him. He is considered one of the leading gorilla leader of the fifteenth century who fought for and along with his people, perfected the art of war in that terrain and gave Turkish ruling elite a taste of their own medicine. His name was Jasrat alias Jassa. The invasion of Timur exposed the hollowness of Delhi Sultanate in north India. A large number of leaders of native rose up and some even supported Timur out of disgust for Sultanate. The chief of Khokhar (Gakkhars according to some historians) tribe named Shaikha was one of them. After the fall of Delhi at the hands of Timur, Shaikha defected and captured Lahore. Timur recaptured Lahore on his way back from Delhi, got Shaikha beheaded on March 5, 1399 and took his son Jasrat to Samarkand as a captive. After the death of Timur, Jasrat escaped from his prison, returned home, assumed the leadership of his tribe and set himself up at Sialkot. This was the beginning of a remarkable career, lasting almost 40 years, which began during Mahmud Tughlaq reign but most of it occurred during the reign of Syeds (Sadat) Sultanate. His first act was to side with Shahi Khan against Ali Shah in the civil war in Kashmir. The backing of victorious Shahi Khan made Jasrat powerful and well equipped to conceive of conquering Delhi. He was joined by another great rebel, Tughan Rai, who had just lost a rebellion against Syed Khizar Khan (Founder of Syeds Sultanate). Together they swooped across the rivers Ravi, Sutlej and Beas and defeated the governor of Ludhiana, Rai Kamal-ud-din Firoz at Talwandi. Encouraged by the victory, he captured areas as far as Ropar and laid siege to Jullundhar. The new Sultan, Syed Mubarak Shah moved against him in October 1421, retaking most of the area from Jasrat but failed to capture him. In the next act of his career, he assaulted Lahore in May 1422 with a large force which apparently he had no difficulty in collecting from his hideout in the hills surrounding Jammu (an indication of widespread discontent and frustration with the rulers). He tried twice but each time was defeated by Lahore governor, Mahmud Hassan, with help from Raja Bhim of Jammu. In April 1423, Jasrat emerged from his abode, attacked Raja Bhim of Jammu (a supporter of Sultanate) and killed him. Not only did he remove a thorn from his side, but also took possession of large reserves of arms and treasure, increasing his strength. With a force of 10,000-12,000 strong, he sacked Lahore and Dipalpur. When governor of Punjab, Malik Sikander Tuhfa encountered him with a much larger force, Jasrat promptly withdrew from the contest. In 1427, he saw a window of opportunity when royal armies were busy in quelling the uprising in Mewat and Bayana. He appeared from his hideout and laid siege to Kalanaur. The Sultan deputed a large army against him but just before its arrival, Jasrat retreated to his abode. In 1430, a slave of Syeds, Faulad Turkbaccha, revolted against Syeds, allured ruler of Kabul, Shaikh Ali, for help. The Khokhars, under the leadership of a minor leader Ain-ud-Din joined Shaikh Ali during his attacks on Punjab, Malik Sikander Tuhfa and Syeds Sultanate. Taking advanatage of the weakened Sultanate position, Jasrat reemerged from the hills, crossed rivers Chenab, Ravi and Beas, defeating Malik Sikander Tuhfa at Jullundhar in 1431. He arrested Malik Tuhfa and recaptured Lahore. As usual, when Sultan marched from Delhi with a large force, Jasrat had no option but to withdraw. As soon as, Sultan withdrew and moved his armies to Gwalior and Bayana to quell another rebellion, Jasrat captured Lahore for the third time in 1432, from remaining Sultanate armies. And once again he had to retreat with the arrival of fresh Sultnate armies. In 1433, Sultan Syed Mubarak Shah replaced Nusrat Khan with Allahabad Kaka Lodhi as the governor of this region. Jasrat, immediately took the advantage of changeover, marched to Bajwara and defeated the new governor. Sultan Syed Mubarak Shah was assassinated in 1434. The rise of Bahlol Lodhi that ultimately led to the changeover of Sultanate from Syeds to Lodhis also marks an end of a remarkable career of Jasrat. He was getting old and saw no chance of fulfilling his dream of eliminating the yoke of Turkish/ Afghan rule over sub-continent. As a last resort, he made a pact with Bahlol Lodhi promising not to interfere with Bahlol's design to capture the throne in return for Bahlol not attacking Jasrat's people and hometown on both sides of lower river Jhelum. Jasrat died in 1442. "In spite of well over three centuries of almost unbroken rule, the famished Indian peasant wrote lungi and ate khichri and frequently shifted his hamlet and village to avoid the wrath of nature and the tyranny of the state. He (the people) lost all sense of pleasure, his genius was stunted, his mind was subdued and his heart became rude" noted Babur, on Indian affairs from the epitaph of the Delhi Sultanates, in Babur Namah. What he and his descendants did to Indian peasants is another story, a story of almost equal disappointments. Was Jasrat a hero, a rebel or both? Do we really need a historical hero of native origin for identity in an atmosphere that accepts past heroes only of non-native origins? What is the problem to which Jasrat as a hero is the solution? It is for the sake of integral identity; an identity with a lion share of peoples' heritage. A thorough brainwashing with the help of textbooks, media, teaching and believing only from victors' standpoint has taken place. Additionally, removing all references of masses resistance and a strategy of silence about the stories of leaders who stood up for the rights of their people has resulted in recognition of rulers like Mahmud Ghaznavi, Ahmad Shah Abdali and Aurangzeb as heroes. Their imposition as our heroes is unfair to our traditions and heritage. Here was a man who symbolized the people's struggle against tyranny and foreign yoke as much as Shivaji did two centuries later. While Shivaji's name is written in gold in the annals of people's history of India, Jasrat's is completely ignored in Pakistan. Jasrat was to Sultanate what Shivaji was to Mughals. Reading about Jasrat from several well-known history books, one finds no mention of religious differences among his followers. He was popular not only among his tribe but his successful activities in central and eastern Punjab suggest his popularity among other tribes also. He was against foreign rulers who were demanding lot more in taxes and tributes from his people than they could afford.]


Name: Zahra - July 24, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Kamran: You have brought up a great example. Have not we read that "Waris Shah O' Sada Eee Jyoundae Nae' Jinaan Keetyaan Naik Kamayaan Nee." It does not say who will be the "chosen" ones. My context was a little different from how you took it; but I completely agree with your stance...common values and perspectives are great binders. I have a lot of American Friends as well as Asian Americans. Something that I really value among them is the intelligence, caliber and mettle. I do not share the language, culture and above all soil with them; but there are many other things that I can well relate to them because of the common interests or I should say "basic intelligence." Somehow I did not understand your phrase: "glassie upon glassie." What did you imply? Drinking? Or you meant they were having a glass of "lassi." I have never read or heard of such expression. Anyway, I think you meant the former than the latter. Correct me if I am wrong! Well, you can have good and bad in each culture and in each religion. You cannot generalize based on that and also being in the West, you have got to broaden your horizons by being friends with people from other communities, regardless of their background....Having said all of that, I will still stand by my favorite phrase: birds of a feather,love to flock together :) Take Care.


Name: munawar - July 24, 2001
E-mail: mramuk@yahoo.co.uk
Location: hyderabad,      pakistan
Comments:   pujabi language is sweet, hard, language. like it too much but any time when i understant it.thanks............ . juni lahore na thekha see jumua ie nahin


Name: Khawaja Kamran Sadiq - July 23, 2001
E-mail: kamran_khawaja@hotmail.com
Location: Toronto Shariif, ON     CAN
Comments:   Salam. Regards to Zahras comments, that one tends to be drawn to peoples of similar ethnicites. Let me recount a story...I was having something to eat at my university, with a punjabi [singh] friend of mine. He happened to notice few other guys sitting in the place, also punjabi [lahoris], so we joined them. Now, was i supposed to feel any sort of bond with these guys, who were drinking 'glassie upon glassie'. Anyhow, i think that one feels comfortable with people who one finds goodness in. I had a better time with my sardarjee friend, than i did with the musalman guys. All punjabi, different attitudes. One last point, it is imperative for muslim punjabis to understand that their brotherhood does not consist of the ppl from punjab solely, indeed all muslims are like unto one single body. Recall our greatest poet baba Bulleh Shah: 'outhe amalah de honain nenebere, kissene teri zaat puchane'. Inshallah, may the Punjabi culture glow within the fold of Islam. Rest later. Khodahafez -o- Rab ruk. Toronto jyundabad!~!


Name: Zahra - July 23, 2001
E-mail: z_jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   I think the concern here is not national identity. The concern is regional identity and if having that identity can create any ripples. To me, it's plain nonsense if anyone has an issue with regional identity. Let's take another example: Despite the fact that all the Muslims have Arabic under their belt as the common language. They will always be attracted towards those who are from their part of the world. Why? Because of the common ways, eating habits, culture, traditions, arts-and-crafts, way of taking a dupatta, colors and etc. That's been my common observation, in spite of having many middle-easterners as friends. Those who feel challenged by the regional identities are those who do not belong to any of those regions and despite the fact that they migrated decades back, they could not assimilate for some reason. I am fine with their way of insecurity; but I have an issue, if any of those come forth criticizing the regions. Cannot stand that!


Name: Abdul Shakoor - July 23, 2001
E-mail: punjabibaba@hotmail.com
Location: Lauder Hill, FL     USA
Comments:   Shoneyo: In America one can never get education in any other language, they have one language identity. Every one who come from any part of the world have to speak one language and that's the thing which ultimately absorb all the other alien cultures. As a nation you have to agree on one national language. The regional languages have their own identities, everyone should respect them.


Name: Zahra - July 23, 2001
E-mail: z_jamshed@hotmail.com
Comments:   Bushra: A lot can be written and said on your thoughts. I will only say that identity of Pakistan is from its four provinces. Is there anything aside from that? It's not a vacuum. On another note, when you are talking to an American from South, they will always introduce themselves as Southerners. Does not mean that they are trying to segregate themselves from the rest. It simply means that they have an identity despite being Americans. Having traveled extensively, this has been my common observation. Next time, if anyone tells you anything like that, take them to task :)!


Name: Naima Shoukat - July 23, 2001
E-mail: ashoukat@MSN.com
Location: Baltimore, M D     USA
Comments:   I'm from Pakistan Mirpur Azad Kashmir. I'm not basically a punjabi speaker but now i can speak pretty good Punjabi being with a Punjabi friend from India.I think Punjabi is very SWEET language!


Name: amer akmal - July 23, 2001
E-mail: pindiwal_99@yahoo.com
My URL: http://yahoo.com
Location: West Caldwell, NJ     USA
Comments:   I have three identities. I am a Punjabi Pakistani American. The first two parts I am very emotionally attached to. The Pakistani part I consider my primary identity. The Punjabi part , my secondary identity, I have been told to forget about, for the sake of the first. I have complied, albeit very unwillingly. The third identity, American, I don't have any emotional attachment to but ironically this part has solved the conflict between my other two identities. Here in American I have been allowed to be American without sacrificing my Pakistani identity. I am allowed to have "Pakistan Day Parade" every August. Similarly Italians, Irish, Mexicans, Puertoricans are also allowed to celebrate their respective cultures. Nobody questions their patriotism. I have learned that my Punjabi and Pakistani identities are not mutually exclusive? May be in 1947 founders presumed that a Pakistani identity can only blossoms if Punjabi, Sindhi, Balochi, Bengali and Pukhtoon identities are weeded out. Well the history has proved them wrong. Bangladesh was the direct result of that policy. Punjabis themselves sacrificed their own language for the cause and are still the strongest supporters of this unnatural policy. It is heartening to see that this site is trying to give 'mouth -to-mouth' to Punjabi's limp body but it would also help if our others Punjabi brothers and sisters stop strangulating it.


Name: saeed farani - July 23, 2001
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab,     Pakistan
Comments:   Ms. Bushra raised a very common queston that whenever you talk about Punjabi, the folk answers, "We don't need a separate identity for Punjab, becuase identity of Pakistan is supreme and will be weakened by the promotion of separate cultures, languages and identities of the provinces." Ms. Bushra, first of all we have to define patriotism. There are various amalgams of patriotism in Pakistan. The first and dominating amalgam is that who believes in the theory given by "Urdu-speaking or pro-Urdu language community" which has been promoting Urdu on every cost even on the cost of all Pakistani languages. This community is very strong in Pakistan. It countered Bangla language and made a path for the separation of Bangali Muslim brothers. This community exploited each and every moment to dominate culture-vise in the country. When Bhutto government (the government of the sons of the soil) took some decisions favouring Sindhi language, a language of minority in Pakistan. They wrote poems like "it is the funeral of Urdu and so on so." The Daily Jang ( one of the top promoters of Urdu language) published such poems. Our Lahori (so-called Punjabies) lovers of Urdu also thought it great threat to the unity of the country and they gave the title of "traitors" to those who raise voice in favour of Sindhi. This dominent Urdu and Pro-Urdu language Mafia on Media, in education, in Islamabad, never allows even a small relaxation or favour to the original languages of Pakistan. There are such articles in the sylabus of schools and colleges that to love Urdu is to love Pakistan and to love provincial regional (such derogatory words to eleminate our real Pakistani languages) is to go against the unity of country. This is the propaganda made through print and electronic media. I love my mother language Punjabi and I firmly believe that I am hundreds time more patriot Pakistani as compare to these so called Pakistanies who want to kill our languages. To love Pakistan means a love to each and every thing of Pakistan, to love each and every language and culture of Pakistan. I am Punjabi but I can speak Pushto very well. I feel more easy to talk in Pushto with my Pushtoon brothers. Punjabi is (may be now "was") the language of majority in Pakistan and all over the world the language of majority is a link or the main language as in India, Hindi which belongs to India is the link language for all nationalities or they have chosen an English language as an alternative. After this long history, I feel now that if Urdu is spoken as a link language in Pakistan, I don't have any objection but I will never ever favour that we leave our language and adopt Urdu and prove a patriot Pakistani. This is an open cheating to our Sindhi, Pushtoon and Balochi brothers. We did this cheating in the past going against Bangali brothers. Now if we hate our mother language and favour Urdu on the cost of Punjabi we will be traitors in the papers of history. Love Urdu as much as Sindhis and Pathans are loving. For God sake, think over it and don't hate your mother tongue.


Name: Bushra Khan - July 23, 2001
E-mail: khanbushra@hotmail.com
Location: New York,      USA
Comments:   While talking to other folks on Punjabi, the idea that promotion of Punjabi and separate identiy of Punjabi culture is somehow damaging to Pakistan is always put forth. Any comments on this and ideas how to answer this concern? People say we don't need a separate identity for Punjab, because Identity of Pakistan is supreme and will be weakened by the promotion of separate cultures, languages and identiities of provinces.


Name: JAVED TARIQ - July 22, 2001
E-mail: j1tariq@yahoo.com
Location: Lahore,      Pakistan
Comments:   Pujanbi is a great language in the world. We are proud to be a pakistani and then punjabi.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 21, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Today I visited Jang's website, a daily urdu newspaper and found urdu news in roman script. I think now we should also start to do something concrete on this matter. Regards


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 21, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Rammah Jee: On page 151 after bund 164, the next bund is 425, 426 and 427. Continued on page 152, bunds are 428 and 429 and than 470. Its all problem of 2 and 6 in persian text. Regards


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 20, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Rammah Jee: Thankyou very much for such a moderate point of view. As far as religious symbols and effects are concerned on one's thoughts, no one can deny them. But one can pose to do so....... Again Thank You. Regards


Name: Safir Rammah - July 20, 2001
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, VA     USA
Comments:   Zahra: I am also at the early stages of learning and understanding Waris Shah's poetry, yet I will try to take a shot at your question. Eventually our general view on a lot of things is going to color our understanding of any work of art, so all I can do is to put forward my point of view. I don't believe that 'Heer Ranjha' is a religious book, nor do I read it as a symbolic expression of Waris Shah's religious believes, although he himself is understood to be a deeply religious man. In my view, prevailing religious norms and attitudes that are found here and there in the poem are just that, either Waris' own or the society's frame of reference in a given period of time. We find the same in all classical works of poetry in any language. As to your question, I understood Ranjha's vision of Punj Peer's as an expression of his inner resolve and his unwavering belief in his ultimate success and destiny which is a common trait among all over-achievers. Throughout history, the same resolve and belief in ultimate success against all odds has been an absolute must for all human beings who have achieved any meaningful goal, whether on a journey to find God or to go to moon or whatever. One has to die before death, a favorite subject of Sultan Bahu's poetry, to be able to successfully walk any tough road. That this purity of heart is not dependent on one's religious believes and may or may not results in success is also a fact of life and doesn't undermine the value of struggle. It is the journey itself that counts, not the end. I may note that on the same point, Waris is very pragmatic when presenting Heer's state of mind. In one of the most beautiful bands in the poem, Heer laments by saying, "Heer Akhia Jogia jhoot bolain, kon wicheRay Yaar milounda e….." Her down to earth common sense had perceived the end more correctly than Ranjha, who was after all a dreamer. Now, no question that the end can be easily explained in secular terms, as I have attempted to do here (although rather superficially), but does present a dilemma for those who consider Heer Ranjha as a book of some profound religious thought. Particularly, in view of the commitment he had got from the Panj Peers. Of course their simple solution is to present the death of Heer and Ranjha as a success story in the ultimate achievement of their spiritual goal. For me, Ranjha's death, probably from a massive heart attack, on hearing about Heer's murder shows the sheer intensity of his love for Heer, and that by itself is noble enough. See Waris' matter of fact closing of his four line commentary on their death, " Waris Shah es khowab sarai di te, kai wajaRey gai waja mian." (band 632). That they fought against insurmountable odds under the given social conditions has deeper meanings for me than shrouding the whole poem in a spiritual hollow. Then again, it is all a matter of taste.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 20, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Ref Zhara: Disagreement is the way towards synthesis, so that's fine. But it will be much better if you disagree with arguments, it will give an oppertunity to the readers to understand your concrete thoughts. It is one of the main puposes of this site/forum. Regards.


Name: Zahra - July 20, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   This reminds me of a very nicely sung number by Nusrat Fateh Ali(Late)- Nee Main Jana Jogi Dae Naal. I am not sure if it is on this website yet. Very rhythmic and lively qawwali with beautiful beat.


Name: Zahra - July 20, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Mahmud Faheem: Sorry to digress from the subject, but I will agree with the *concern* Bushra has raised. Your analogy on Jog was very strange and out-of-place.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 20, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Ref to Zahra: Fate of the pure hearts is their conjunction with reality because they can't love the material in itself. Material has limits and their love is infinite so how is it possible that it can be bounded? You can never see in any master piece that prince and princess married and lived for whole of their remaining life with each other. Its childish end and has very little dimensions with limited depth. You see in Heer, even after all the efforts the fate becomes Universal rather than material. They both may be unsuccessful in material frame of reference but successful in passions and that's the thing. Its my feelings and can be different from Others. Regards.


Name: Bushra Khan - July 20, 2001
E-mail: khanbushra@hotmail.com
Location: New York,      USA
Comments:   Ref; Mahmud: Your mambo-jumbo is getting on my nerves. We common people, with less than pure hearts and passions also want to understand heer with our own, may be inferior in your opinion, sense of Reality. In one of your previous postings you explained the meanings of symbols in the last bund of heer as.."Jog is Woman which compells the man to do even most inferior actions for her sake .." As if otherwise man is not capable of these 'most inferior actions' on his own. I reserve my comments on this nugget of wisdom for the time being until I finish my own reading of heer and simply request you to stop patronizing us.


Name: Zahra - July 19, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   I repeat my questions: Is that the fate of those who just believe in the purity of their heart? How can that be so unrewarding? Possible Answers: - Personal Fulfilment: It can be the sense of fulfillment that Ranjha went through during the upheavals in his life. That *sense* may be the reward. He had the hope to get to his final destination due to the vibes and/or the revelation he had recieved. - Fate/Destiny: It was written in his fate and that's what happened. - Perception: Probably the sad end to the readers maybe a hidden blessing for the two souls. I read another ending where both of them disappeared as the Punj Peer took them away from the cruel world and they stayed alive. This was mentioned as one of the myths. - Phases of Human Life: Human beings have to go through all the phases in order to even get closer to want they want. (Ranjha)had a heightened sense of awareness and knew what he wanted. He was tested at various points and he stood by his determination. So probably it was to show the process flow.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 19, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Ref to Zahra: Reality is same under the sky from the very first day, some call it truth and some beauty. It is a constraint on the poet or artist that he has to narrate his experience and observation of Reality in the symbols around him. Otherwise no one can feel his unique experience. Here one can say why its unique if Reality exists as it is? It is a fact that without purity of heart and passions, this experience is not possible. It becomes fade and unclear. It is an experience of some moments which spreads on the whole life of the person and he/she starts to see everything in the reference of these moments. So same was done by the Shah Sahib. You see his creativity opens many many horizons from the cultural codes around him. It is not two plus two equals four, so you will never find a final answer but you can feel ecstacy and sublimation which has no limits. Regards


Name: Zahra - July 19, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Well, I am in the process of reading the poetic version of Heer on this beautiful website. I think it will be unfair on my behalf to ask any question, if I have not read what Late Waris Shah wrote. Reading the book in English certainly left a different impact. It was a folk story that was narrated in the book I have mentioned. In fact, it was very well narrated, with lots of details, and minute observations which made it very obvious that the writer had read the original poetry. But reading folk story is very different than reading the real text. My questions were the result of reading the folk story and not the literary piece. I would like to raise my questions in light of the folk story than the literary piece which is full of metaphors itself. Can we take the two separately? Or I should say, should we take the two separately? In the meantime, while I try to decipher the authentic piece, I repeat my questions: Is that the fate of those who just believe in the purity of their heart? How can that be so unrewarding? As I write this question, I have a few answers that come to my mind, but they are not the exact answers; they are just possibilities. I would like to know the *right* answer. What would that be? I will come back with the options that came to my mind as I think more on this aspect.


Name: saeed farani - July 18, 2001
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab.     Pakistan
Comments:   Ms Syma Jamal, In Islamabad we have a study group where we read and try to understand HEER Waris Shah. Generally, we sit together at Sarwat Mohiyuddin's Bangla near Super Market, Islamabad. Her phone # is 2271819 mobile #0300 8551177. Mrs. Sarwat is the Bhabhi of Najam Hussain Syed. Other experts are Cheema Saheb and his professor wife in Islamabad ph# 4443874. Another gentleman is the heart specialist Dr. Shoukat Malik ph#2778027 and I myself is the student of HEER and my ph# 4417813. If anyone else other than Ms. Syma is also interested in learning of HEER he/she can contact to Mrs. Sarwat Mohiyuddin or Cheema Sahib or me. Punjabi books and dictionaries are also easily available. Here, I want to write for Khawaja Kamran Saheb of Toronto, Quran in Punjabi translation by Moulana Hidaytullah of Daska is also available in Pindi. It is beautifully published on Art Paper. Its price is Rs. 350. One translation of Quran in Punjabi was also published by Jamaet-e-Ahmadiya. We should something even a little little for the promotion of Punjabi. Rab Rakha saeed farani


Name: Safir Rammah - July 17, 2001
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, VA     USA
Comments:   It is no wonder that we have a differnce of opinion in understanding Heer. Here are couple of passages from Najm Hussain's article "The World of Waris Shah." Once I get Punj Darya's Special Edition on Waris Shah that Javed Zaki has promised to send me, I will be able to post a number of scholarly articles on Heer:

"In spite of the fact that it is found on few bookshelves and fewer bookstalls, Waris Shah's "Heer" is one of those rare books in all literature which have been popular for ages without any effort being organized on their behalf. Only a few have seen "Heer" in print, and yet millions in the Northern part of the sub-continent hear of it, quote it and refer to it, more often than to any other non-religious work. Written commentaries on "Heer" are rare, and critical introductions rarer. It does not form part of any regular curricula. But despite these disadvantages-perhaps because of them-Waris Shah's long poetic drama has been certain of its audience for generations.
The audience of "Heer" have not been as certain of it-at least they have rarely asked themselves if they were. General opinion-more on the sophisticated than on the popular level-prefers to classify "Heer" as a tragic romance. Another section of opinion likes to think of the work as a mystical allegory. And a highly respectable minority regards it an exercise in conventional morality-this despite the fact that the work has been for long thought fit for adults only. Still another section of opinion, which too is highly respectable, prefers to combine all the different notions and considers "Heer" as a work of vast and varied potentialities, containing high romance and deep pathos, with a spattering of moral aphorisms and spiritual allegory."


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 17, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Ref to Sameer and Ramah Jee: In the bund 631 which I think atleast you also agree that is not an afterthought, Shah Sahib clearly says that it is the story of Spirit and Body. Beside this there are also other bunds in which He says the same thing. I feel all the story related to my own spirit and body with all the symbols around me. You know well that the greatness of a poet is that he uses the symbols around him to express his experience with the reality. So Shah Sahib did it at the best. Regards


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 17, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Zahra go to bund 82 to get the names of punj peers and then read bunds 119, 120 and 121. With the reference of five senses and then ranjha as body, I hope you will enjoy. Regards


Name: Zahra - July 17, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   I read everyone's response. But sadly, no one has provided the answer to my questions. I will re-read what was said by all to see if I could find my answers. Thanks to all.


Name: Syma Jamal - July 17, 2001
E-mail: syma_jamal@yahoo.com
Location: Islamabad,      Pakistan
Comments:   Hello All! Now that I had some time to review this site, I realize that something serious is being done here to defend and promote Punjabi. My congratulations to all who are involved in developing it. Keep up the good work. I just read parts of the discussion on heer – at this late hour in Pakistan – and find it interesting enough to keep me awake. I have been reading heer poem for the last some days. I was just following the story then I reached bund 56 and 57. That is where I understood why all the fuss about heer. A very exciting discovery. I am well read in both urdu and english poetry, by my god, this is a big surprise. I admit that I don't understand some of the words. I wish meanings of difficult words were also given on the site. Zahra, thanks for your warm welcome!


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 17, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   I am not understanding that how we are saying that this bund is afterthought and others are not. Did Shah Sahib wrote all the Heer in one sitting or just in one transe? The last bund surely belongs to Heer and it gives the best universal symbols. We can analyze the Heer on the parapsychic standards and under other parameters, but the importance of this last bund can never be neglected. It really makes it Universal rather than to isolate this everlasting creation just to Punjab. Regards


Name: SameerJB - July 16, 2001
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Dear Safir: I am very grateful to you for bringing into discussion proabably the best explanation of last bund as an afterthought. I am surprised that I did not think of it when I am so used to adding afterthoughts in my interacts. Waris Shah has every reason to add afterthoughts in order to cover all bases in the work of his lifetime. Actually, it is a format used by later sufi-poets also in writing Heer. This reminds me of a lesser known Punjabi poet (whose name alludes me right now) writing Heer-Ranjha story and at the end relating it to religion. It was something like: "bey baal ke shama jalayeeN, ni Ranjha Jhang ja warhya---ral sialniaN wekhan aai'yaN, ne kaida chanan charhya; Heeray charkhey dee ghook sunayeeN, nee babul choochak de wehrhey---gawan Ranjhan mahiyay de gayeeN, ni har har charkhey de phairey". Now it is a description of Ranjha's entry into Jhang but the poet in the end describes it as a metaphor for Muhammad's entry into Medina (hijrat) when people celebrated his arrival. His explanation certainly seems to me as an afterthought. Thanks again, for pointing me to the right direction. Regards, Sameer


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 16, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   One other thing, it was the period of Sikh Misels and from whom Shah Sahib was afraid that he was compelled to write the last Bund? Another thing, according to Sufis the sex is a spiritual experience so it is a real enlightment and very much sublimative than the instict. Regards


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 16, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Rammah jee: I think we are ignoring the first seven bunds which clearly tells the Shah Sahib's religious philosophy and faith. When He is relating that approach in the last bund to the human psychy, why we are seeing grin and twinkles in His eyes. You can see in almost all of the poetic stories that traditionally poet starts from his faith and ends with winding up and request for prayers. It is His great mild and balanced approach that He is presenting a Creation in best form ever in Punjabi. He is Son of soil with shoots in air and light of many factors. 520 to 529 and many other sensual bunds are exactly fit and don't seem inappropriate when we read all the Heer. Anyhow its Shah Sahib's Symbolism, and anyone has the right to see the other different perspectives. I enjoy Heer according to this and since I am a starter so still believing in it. Regards,


Name: Safir Rammah - July 16, 2001
E-mail: rammah@apna.com
Location: Fairfax, VA     USA
Comments:   Sameer: You have got it right. I will even go a step further. Isn't it possible that the last band of heer (638) was an afterthought? An insurance policy against potential detractors who could have labeled his epic poem as a meaningless love story? An attempt to send the readers on a voyage in search of deeper meanings behind the story, albeit intentional misdirection to a sufi/religious path? It clearly appears that the poem was completed in band 636/637. Then why add a new band with explanation of certain symbols? A rather unusual and self-serving undertaking by a highly educated and learned poet. He was certainly well aware of the poetic traditions in both Punjabi and Persian where the intentions of the poet are clarified in the beginning, not at the end. In the beginning, Waris Shah presents the reasons for writing this poem in purely secular terms (band 6/7). If he had a sufi/religious purpose of writing this epic poem in mind, he would surely have avoided the temptation of many explicit poetic descriptions found in the poem, i.e., band 520-529. Nowhere in the poem Waris provides any hint that he expects his readers to view the plot in a religious or spiritual light. There is an internal rhythm and harmony throughout the poem that touches the deepest levels of sublimity at times, moves back to the crude and coarse representation of everyday life, and then travels the other direction towards the heights of sensuousness, almost deliberately staying away from spiritual experience. At the end of each band, he had reserved the last line for his own commentary, giving himself ample room to put his renderings in any light he wanted to. It seems odd that he almost never avails these hundreds of opportunities to explain his true meanings that are then suddenly disclosed in the last band. I guess that he added the last band with a grin on his lips and a twinkle in his eyes.


Name: Zahra - July 16, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Dear Mr. Rammah: Thanks for the info. I will ask around and see who is going to the DC Conference on Sat/August 04th. I know that it will be a whole day's event. I have attended these seminars previously and they are an all-day seminar. Laiken, I will request something from your end. Can you put together a word, one pager that gives a heading of the current discussion and the venue etc. I can take that with me as well and disseminate to the attendees there. That way it will be spreading the word around. Also, I can forward that to my friends over the email. We can take that off-line, but I just thought I will bring it up here first. Thanks.


Name: Sameer - July 16, 2001
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Mahmud and Zahra: reading Heer according to the last chapter of Heer by Waris Shah is only meant for practitioners of sufism in terms what is referred as "Maarfat". After all Waris Shah was a sufi and sufism was most important to him. However, it does not serve the purpose of language and culture as this site is trying to do. Sufi poetry in Punjabi language can be read for sheer beauty and simplicity of expression without bringng "Maarfat" into it. Actually it is better to detach the best pieces of Punjabi literature from any explanation (not exploitation) that might be deemed divisive among Punjabis who are interested in promoting language and culture. Poetry, in general, in any language including Punjabi is much loose in explanation of meaning than prose. One can possibly read much more in good poetry that what the intentions of poet might originally be. Whenever we try to explain social or political history using past literature, we consider many many other factors without mentioning them. One can not study social or cultural aspects without knowing the history, personal life of the poet, and many other aspects. For example, Waris Shah lived through the Punjabis in-fighting during Sikh Mis'l period, witnessed Abdali attacks, deaths, plundering and observed the visibly decline of Punjabi standard of living. If one thinks of "Maarfat" only in his epic work, he/ she is basically suggesting Waris Shah remaining indifferent to surrounding conditions. Maarfat metaphor is only for a limited number of people interested in Maarfat. My interpretation of history went into interpreting Heer in political terms without mentioning it. Similarly Mahmud perhaps sees history differently and thus his interpretation of Heer. There is no point discussing if any of us is right or wrong. That terminology does not apply to an imaginery interpretation of Punjabi poetry. We see in it what we like to see in it. To me, the anarchy and Abdali attacks during 18th century increased the sufferings of Punjabis and I would not interpret the hero of the most loved piece of Punjabi languade being an invader. If I was an Afghan or Heer was a piece of Afghan language, a pride in Abdali would have forced me to interpret Ranjha as an invader who fell in love with a local girl. Panj peer is part of original story written by damodar Das almost two centuries before Waris Shah. You can think of them as any five elements with magical powers. In religious sense it may be Muhammad and four khalifas or "Panjtan Pak (Muhammad, Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussain)" or five senses as Waris Shah himself said, whereas in cultural terms, it could be a metaphor for five rivers of Punjab shaping the land and livelihood of Punjabis almost magically. Ler me repeat, I believe that, because of extreme use of symbolism, in poetry one can read whatever one wants to read. Let us agree on one point that it is the most beautiful piece of Punjabi literature. I can listen to Heer by any of a number of singers anytime of the day and enjoy it. It provides a very different approach to singing and enjoying, without much percussion. It show the versatility of Punjabi music that you can love heavy percussion by dhol as in folk songs and Bhangra as well as almost no percussion as in the case of Heer. Saeed Farani: I have this feeling that we both are roughly at the same wavelength in term of history of Punjab and treatment of Punjabi culture with disdain by almost all powerful and elite of the past and present. I am quite bitter about it. The arrogance shown by the dominant culture in the history of northern India and Punjab has successfully strapped the cat to the back of a Camel. You have to accept cat for buying Camel. In Pakistan, Urdu is linked strongly with our religion. The best strategy to respond to arrogance is intelligence, smartness and compassion. Since I am short of intelligence, I usually respond arrogance with equal arrogance. To me, culture is something that provides identity and enjoyable within the biunds of other co-culturists. When a culture tries to break this sacred and universally accepted boundary conditions and imposes it on others arrogantly, on the back of powerful and sensitive religious philosophy, it is considered cultural hegemony. The hegemony of English is unavoidable because it is the language of science, commerce, technonlogy and electronic communication.


Name: Safir Rammah - July 16, 2001
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax , VA     USA
Comments:   Dear Zahra: Reference your posting proposing an APNA get together on the weekend of August 4-5, in conjunction with ASPENA conference. We been holding a weekly APNA reading group meeting for many years. These days, we meet every Saturday from 1:00-3:00 p.m. in a restaurant in Springfield, VA (14 miles south of Washington DC), over a cup of tea in keeping with the Tea House tradition. We are studying Sultan Bahu. Anyone on this forum, who happens to be in this area on a weekend, is most welcome to join us. Let me know what the schedule of ASPENA Conference is. If the Conference will be over on Saturday, we can get together on Sunday, instead of our regular schedule of Saturday. Do you know, or can find out, if anyone else will be interested so that we can arrange the meeting place and agenda accordingly. I will myself be returning from a two-week vacation on that weekend, driving back from Florida. I am not sure if I will arrive here in time on Sunday, August 5, but will try.
We have also planned a Seminar and our Annual Punjabi Mushaira here on October 14. We will be making the announcement by next week after finalizing all arrangements. All are invited to attend


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 16, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Ref Heer: I am just a student of Punjabi and take my comments as of a student. In the last stanza Shah Sahib says "panj peer nain panj hawas teray jinhan tudh noo thapna laiya ee". Physically we are the prisoners of five senses and beyond these senses, reality also exists as well. We can see or hear certain frequencies, but before and after these limits a wide range of frequencies exist. If you belive just on your senses and try to see the reality its not possible, You have to go beyond the senses to see and admire the beauty. But everything starts from these senses, so develop yourself to admire the beauty on the basis of them but than go beyond them. Punjabi is one of the strongest communicative language. Thapna means i)buck up ii)beat on drum iii)making of pathy form shit of cow. So these are the senses which not only bound you but also give you the base to understand beauty, the truth and than to escalate towards the harmony with it. At that stage there will be no difference between you and me, the self negates and everything be a single entity, the universality.


Name: Zahra - July 15, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Dear Readers: Re: Heer - Warish Shah: I have a question to those who have thoroughly read Heer. I have not read the complete poetical version and have just started it, but I have read the story in "Folk Romances of Pakistan" by Sayyid Fayyaz Mahmud. I am a little unclear on the role of Punj Peer. If I read the 638th stanza, it says that Punj Peer were the senses. What does senses mean in the current context? Intuition? Vibes? Revelation? Or What? In the story that I've read, it said that the Punj Peer were the holy figures that told Ranjha to be patient and stay steadfast and he would get what he desired. On various instances, Hazrat Khizr's mention was also made in the story. Specially, when the sister-in-laws start making mannataen to Hazrat Khizr[ilh]. If the Punj Peer were acting like his guardian angels, and stood by him throughout his journey, jog and other upheavals in life; why did not they forewarn him regarding the conniving Sayyals at the end? How could he trust them? What happened to Ranjha's senses at that time? Or probably it was the purity of his heart that did not make him doubt them? And he was decieved at the end? I was amazed to read the end of the story. Secondly, somehow or other, I have always read the mention of Hazrat Khizr in stories from Iraq, Faras and countries of that belt; the mention of the said buzurg made be a little surprised. Also, the way the mention was brought up at a few instances, it left a very incomplete picture of Hazrat Khizr's role. Was it either punj peer or hazrat khizr or was it both? While I am writing this post full f questions, I was struck my the concept of five senses for the "senses," but howcome Ranjha's senses did not forewarn him? This creates a confusing question in my mind. Ok, it maybe that his senses could not let him know his fate, but then was he promised. Why did all his promises end up in empty promises? Is that the fate of people with pure heart? I am not fully convinved and am in the process of grasping.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 15, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Thank you very much Rammah Jee for the Complete Heer Waris Shah on the site. I couldn't take it with me when I came here and I was really missing it. It compells you to sing it by yourself and I always feel myself trapped in it. Again thankyou to rise my blood pressure which went down. Now reference to Sameer: Saida is not the first character or name resembled to Arabic or Persian introduced by Shah Sahib. Sultan who is brother of Heer, the names of Panj(five) Peers alongwith many other terms and personalities etc are before Saida Khera. In the last Bund i-e 638 of Heer, Shah Sahib gives the metaphysical symbols of his main characters as: Heer is Spirit, Ranjha is the Body, Panj(five)Peers are the senses, Balnath is the mind, Qazi is right action, House is Grave, Khera is Angel of Death, Kaido is the Devil, Heer's friends are Material things, Flute is the Conscious, Sehti is the Death, Sister-in-law is the Sexual Instinct, Rabeel Baandi is the Hunger Instinct, Jog is Woman Which compells the man to do even most inferior actions for her sake, Taranjan is Bad Actions, Mosque is the Mother's Womb and Addalli Raja is the Good Will. Now the Heer Waris Shah Covers the Human Psychology and the the constant battle between mind and conscious in the background and symbols of pure Punjabi Culture. It is unique and stands in the row of few master pieces of world literature. The limitations of cultural or the political aspects make its worth fade as far as students like me are concerned. Best regards.


Name: Zahra - July 14, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Mahmud Faheem: I agree that when the baby is very little it's the mother who he/she will be more drawn to. It's the mother who feeds the baby and not the father. So, obviously mother's role is very different than the father's in the early years. Just to let you know, I do remember my beloved father telling me stories and lorian when my brother and I were very young. In fact, Ammi would read out stories to us, whereas my father would narrate them in a very dramatic way. My brother and I still remember them and they draw us far closer to our father. Having mashallah a very loving, caring and understanding father, I can tell you that it was his interest in me and my siblings' since day one that always kept our family a close network than having any hesitance/barriers to speak our mind and share our feelings with each other. That relationship draws a family closer than anything else. That's it from my end on this "very important" topic. Regards.


Name: Zahra - July 14, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Syma Jamal: Welcome on board! Or I should say Jee Ayaa Noon. This board seemed a little dry and serious early on and I am glad to read that there are other women from Punjab who are finding out this board :-) Probably, we should request Mr. Rammah to make the link to the board a little more obvious. Glad to read your enlightening views. Please spread the word around to other Punjabans as well. I am in the process of doing the same :)!


Name: Zahra - July 14, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Mr. Rammah: [Yes, Lahore lost part of its soul with the demise of Pak Tea House. I do think that Zahra's idea about Cyber Tea House or Cafe is worth pursuing. Any thoughts?] What I meant was I guess an environment and not necessarily a cyber cafe. I know you mentioned once that APNA holds different sessions/gatherings to discuss the Punjabi Poetry and Literature. Are you still doing that? There is a meeting/function of APSENA(All Pakistani Scientists and Engineers of North America]in DC on August04th. I think if a meeting with some literary folks can be arranged during that time-frame, it will be a great idea. Many will be coming from out of town to attend the event[like me]. My suggestion would be that you shouldn't formalize the sitting or gathering, if it will be a hassle; but you should look into having just a cup of tea and a good lecture or shikshaa by either you or Mr. Ejaz on any theme in Punjabi literature for the youth, like me, Bushra and others. Any Comments in that regard? Well, I am not a kid, and am an adult. But I love to hear from the learned and enlightened beings than to read only. I guess that comes from my deep respect and regard for my teachers. Also, you can question and clarify than just read and assume in your mind. Another suggestion, invite some of the forum members to enlighten the attendees on different mythical stories. Someone like[Sameer JB]who has been adding various metaphorical expressions, and one can only use them, if one is well aware of the depth of the story, can be a great speaker. Of couse, one should ask Mr. JB first, if he would be willing to enlighten the attendees? Best Wishes.


Name: Syma Jamal - July 14, 2001
E-mail: syma_jamal@yahoo.com
Location: Islamabad,      Pakistan
Comments:   Hello all. I am in Islamabad and just discovered this amazing collection of Punjabi music and poetry last week. Great work! I have read the postings here with a lot of interest and want to add my two cents. As for women of Punjab, it is both good and bad story. Compared to my mother's generation, women have made a lot of progress in education and professions. Working outside the home is no longer a taboo at least in big cities, although opportunities are limited. Women are taking part in every walk of life. On the other hand, there are still many, what I will call, ati-women laws on the book that are hard to remove due to the pressure of Mullahs. Zinna ordinance is most well known but other family laws regarding marriage, divorce, inheritance, etc. work against women. Similarly there are many bad customs that are heralded and promoted in the name of religion. It helps when ingrained social ills are identified and are given a label, i.e., honor killing. A lot more enlighten is needed to improve women's plight. Institution of purdah should also be given a suitable name that highlights it as a symbol of oppression of women. No point in promoting one's culture if all the ills of that culture are kept intact. Developing a civil society for all segments, including women is a must. May I need to remind that at least half of Punjabi's are women? I am glad to read some of Zahra and Bushra's comments. Zahra is right on the mark in her note on the culture. Keep it up. As for Mr. Fahim, all I will say is that you seem to be out of touch with reality of my generation


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 14, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Zahra I agree, just in the tender years of age when a child really needs mother and absorb the main portion of impact of the things around him, the mother has the vital responsibility. Taht's all from me in this regard. Thank you very much and best wishes. Mahmud


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 14, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Zahra I agree, just in the tender years of age when a child really needs mother and absorb the main portion of impact of the things around him, the mother has the vital responsibility. Taht's all from me in this regard. Thank you very much and best wishes. Mahmud


Name: Zahra - July 14, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Dear Gurmit Kaur: Thanks for a very nice update and informing the readers regarding the efforts of the locals in your area. I am not very clear on your stance regarding, keeping the language away from religion. I agree with the spirit behind the thought, but I would say a few things here: For Muslims in Pakistan, Arabic got more promotion because of the emotional attachment with the religion. Otherwise, there is a very litle population who has mastery over Arabic in terms of speech. Well, still we offer our prayers in Arabic. So, even if there is an effort in various gurdawaras to teach the kids Punjabi, I would not consider that a negligible effort. Something is better than nothing. Interestingly, one of my ex-colleagues and a real good sikh friend, will give me all the "shikshaas" of Guru Nanak in extremely sweet and polite Punjabi. Well, it's always a very enlightening and illuminating experience to sit in her company. A little input from my end on your post. Kind Regards.


Name: Zahra - July 14, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   I had been meaning to write about this little episode that I encountered a while ago and thought of mentioning on this board. Here it goes: One of my Sindhi friends, has an interesting family combination. Her father embraced Islam as he was in love with her mother in college/university. He was the only person in his family who embraced Islam whereas his parents and the rest of the siblings still practice hinduism with emphasis on sufism. They hale from Pakistan and never left the country at the time of partition. Her mother is a Punjabi, who never worked, despite having attained a masters. My friend is extremely fluent in Sindhi and has no clue about Punjabi. Whenever she visits her ancestral gaon(village)in interior Sindh, they always speak Sindhi. As I heard her mentioning this to me recently, I thought of enlightening the readers of this board. Fathers need to realize that they play a very important role in the rearing of their children. Had my beloved father not communicated and related stories, myths, poetical verses to me, I would never have developed that love and passion for Punjabi myself. Interestingly, my father's late maternal grandfather was a sufi-poet. He used to write Punjabi Kafian and was famously known as Baba-Jee Abdi; had a lot of disciples amongst hindus and sikhs both. Obviously, as the law of nature goes, men are supposed to fetch bread and butter for the family. That's one of the reasons that they were granted a level up from women religiously. Obviously, they cannot spend equal amount of time with their kids; but that does not preclude them from having the responsibility of imparting cultural education and sense amongst the kids. The woman who is sitting home can only teach them the little basics and nothing else. And it does not matter if she is a PhD or a Jahil-ae-Mutliq. She will have her limitations. All the more reason each child deserves enlightened parents who can add to their upbringing. And each child forms a very strong impression from what they see in their own homes. Let's not forget that. Personalities develop from one's own home. And homes are not made single-handedly by women. Although I've read somewhere that men make houses; women make homes. This can be taken in different ways but I would like to take it as the effort of both makes it home than otherwise. I did not want to beat the subject to death or win an argument[even if i was successful in doing so :) :) :)]. I wanted to bring a perspective that I have very commonly observed and have experienced in my own household.


Name: Zahra - July 14, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Mahmud Faheem: I went back to APNA's main page and read the purpose of the forum. Just for your kind information, it said: language, literature and culture. By nature women from our origin, no matter if they are lady aflatoon or lady buqraat or heer, they will discuss culture and will bring it up whenever they want to. Aside from that, whenever they will discuss culture they are also going to bring up all the elements that play a pivotal role in the promotion of the beautiful culture. And men certainly play a very important role in the promotion of that culture.So, obviously their "mention" will be there. Just a polite reminder :) Kind Regards.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 14, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   I think we are going in the wrong direction as far as forum's objective is concerned. I agree that a woman should be educated and well awared. My point was that its the prime duty of mother to take care of the matters of language, Culture and the value system upto a certain age limit. Now I am adding alongwith father in this statement. We have to discuss other matters and close this one. Regards


Name: Zahra - July 14, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Bushra: Excellent thoughts. I think probably Mr. Faheem would need to know more about women of the current generation who have an identity as well; aside from being mothers, wives, sisters, and daughters. On another note, his emphasis was not only on confining women at home; but he wanted to shed some light on different aspects of child-rearing. Also, as the women come out and join the work-force they are the ones who start taking additional responsibilities on their "Na-tiwaan" shoulders and should be given the due credit than criticized in anyway. Again, in our country, women have come far ahead from where they were ten years ago, or even from my mother's days - my mother is in her early 50s. Sadly, our men did not have to do any such changes in their perceptions, so they are where they were few decades ago. It's changing to a little degree but it , will take a few more decades. All the more reason, our women should have some exposure to the real world outside their chaar-deewari so they are able to raise their kids in a better manner. I have also seen the difference between a child whose mother was just sitting at home and the ones who were working and added to their child's growth and upbringing in a positive manner. I have seen cases otherwise too, but they were few and far between. Best Wishes.


Name: Bushra Khan - July 14, 2001
E-mail: khanbushra@hotmail.com
Location: New York, NY     USA
Comments:   Thanks Zahra: This idea of Punjabi girls staying home in Chaddar and Chardiwari to teach the new generation Punjabi is not only the creation of a backward religious fundamantalist thinking but also also an attempt to derail the excellent discussion on Punjabi issues on this forum. By the way, the more restrictive form of purdah is an issue for a very small, lower middle calss even in Pakistan There is no such thing as restricted pardah anywhere in Punjab's villages where for centuries women are part of the labor force and can't afford to either observe pardah or staying home.


Name: Zahra - July 13, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Mahmud Faheem: [Ms Bushra: Fortunately I personally know the family of Nobel Laureate Prof. Salam who was a great punjabi and he did not speak any other language except Punjabi at home. His mother was fortunately not the type you idealize. Similarly I know and read about many other great punjabi thinkers and creative people of this era whose families are typical examples.] I have also known quite a few families where the language at home is/was Punjabi. I've heard that from my father about many uncles[late] who did very well in their lives and did not have very well-educated parents. How I got to know about that was in a discussion with my dear father, during which he emphasized on certain human beahviors and etc. Those were the days when there weren't many opportunities for women to come out and do anything else. Obviously, they had to stay home and be full-time house-wives. Interestingly, as the law of nature goes, women are the ones who end up producing babies and not vice versa. Obviously, they will not leave their offsprings in lurch. Their attachment will be very different from that of the father. [You again asking about pardah which may be you don't know is a part of our culture in the form of GHUNGHAT and I believe on it. Can you please give any legend example of any punjabi in favour of your approach? I have many for my approach.] I think you misread Bushra. She was not speaking against purdah[modesty], she was talking about another issue which is quite prevalent in our very male dominated society. Her issue talked about how certain mentalities would discourage women to come forth as companions and partners, and would rather have them sit at home. I think this concept is still not very easily accepted by our community and will take its time. Hopefully, people will start evolving with the passage of time.


Name: Zahra - July 13, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Dear Mr. Rammah: Thanks for updating the music site. Hopefully, you will add the rest of the numbers when you have the time.


Name: Saeed Farani - July 13, 2001
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location: Rawalpindi , Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Sajno tey mitro, The job to promote Punjabi language by Dr. Manzoor Ejaz and Safeer Rammah is very admirable and we all Punjabies who are attached with APNA should come ahead with some concrete actions. What I believe and I believe with reason that first of all we must be clear on the Punjabi language issue. If we don't take this issue seriously then there is no any use to put yourself in such discussions. Now again let me explain the conflict of Punjabi script. I favoured Roman script keeping in view the present electro-media age. Whereas if Gurmukhi is used by Sikh Punjabies and Shahmukhi or Persian script is used my Muslim Punjabi, then there is not harm. For me all the scripts are acceptable. Let's finish this debate here. Dr. Manzoor Ejaz is not clear on this issue when he writes, "Enemies of Punjabi are always eager to point out that since Punjabi does not have one common script therefore, its use should be abandond." The enemies of Punjabi in the West Punjab can say this thing but they cannot say such bullshit when they talk about East Punjab. Then, they know that they have one quite good script for the langauge. They reject that script by saying that it belongs to Sikhism. But for us they say just because of some sounds which are written by us in different ways. Due to our own egoist Punjabies in Lahore no one common Shahmukhi script could be formed. And the enemies of Punjabi make joke of us that even we don't have one common script. Anyhow, presently, the Shahmukhi script which is followed by Punjabi Adbi Board, Lahore should be considered as standard one. But even then side by side the use of Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi scripts we need one common script for the use of internet. So we, the users of internet, write Punjabi in roman script but there is no any standard Roman Punjabi script. That is needed. That was the proposal which I made in my earlier mail. Now come one the enemies of Punjabi in Pakistan who always have many bigotted excuses against the use of Punjabi. Other than the script excuse they talk about the various dialects of Punjabi. Then they hush / fingure the residents of Multan, Bahawalpur to raise voice against Punajbi in favour of Saraiki, and here in Rawalpindi for Pothowari language, and in Mirpur and UK, they coax them for the separate Mirpuri language, and in NWFP they instigate for the separate Hindko language so the chance of one common real native language, (of course Punjabi or MaaN Boli according to Najam Hussaiin Syed) for such a big segment of Muslim population, could be minimised and the path for the establishing Urdu in Pakistani Punjab could be made. For that very purpose they have fabricated their allies from every pocket of the country. The best examples of their such coinage are Dr. Syed Abdullah, Dr. Waheed Quraishi, Majid Nizami, Dr. Inamul Haq Javaid, Amjid Islam Amjid, Ashfaq Ahmad, Mumtaz Mufti etc.. in Lahore, even they also fabricated one group of Punjabies among the Punjabi activists and the examples are Dr. Shahbaz Malik, Nazim Hussain, Dr. Bashir Goraya and many others who always subjugate Punjabi and leave their bad name on the pages of the history. Unfortunately, most of these anti punjabi elements are from the rightist wing which is dominating in the country. Their evey step is againt the benefits of masses. Even today, they dream to sit on the backs of the horses raising their swords like Sultan Ayubi and ready to kill who so ever comes in their way. They have blocked the way of Punjabi. They call Sindhies "traitors" because after Bangalies Sindhies are in their way who are not ready to sacrifice their mother tongue for the sake of rightists' weapon "Urdu". Bangali Muslims were forced to learn Urdu but they openly refused and saved themselves from these Sultan Ayubies and Shahabudin Ghories. Whereas we are under the swords of these Sultan Salahuddin Ayubies and Ghories. They butchered our mother tongue Punjabi. Pakistani electronic and print media won the game of Urdu and it has been the policy of establishment. Sometime they give a few songs of Punjabi on PTV just due to the pressures of other competiting TV channels otherwise they insist our folk singers to sing in Urdu or Urdu mix Punjabi. In PTV dramas the image of Punjabi is given in derogatory form. I fully agree with Abbas Zaidi's view in your articles area. Due to mushroom growth of English medium schools, the trend to speak Urdu in Punjab has risen rapidly. Uneducated owners of the were full of averice and they with the innocent lady teachers of the schools tried to create articially civilised culture just banishing Punjabi in their schools. The innocent parents were satisfied that at least their kids talk in Urdu and they look different in their kins and kiths. This trend spread so rapidly that I observed all around during past ten to twenty years Urdu was spreading everywhere. During the bleak period of Gen. Ziaul Haq, they (urdu language promoters) were given free hand in print and electronic media. Even it was made necessary for every army and civilian officer to buy Islamic books of Maulana Maodoodi (Pure bigotted Urdu speaking mullah. Due to Mullahs who were learning the teachings of Islam from various Madrissas Urdu was their main medium. Whenever I talked in Punjabi with any young Punajbi mullah who was wearing green-pag he always responded me in Urdu. Thats another channel to promote Urdu. Now just see how Urdu was spread through Media, Madrissahs, Mullahs and Military goverments then how you could save Punjabi. Now what you have to do. This is my request to influenced Sikhs to start a TV channel from Amritsar in which their should be good dramas, discussions on social life, health and even for farmers. That channel should cover the area of Pakistani Punjab. That channel shoud not be bigot in any sense. Teachings of Sufies (humanists, lovers of humanity) should be spread all over the world. We are lucky in that sense that Bulhey Shah, Waris Shah and Shah Hussain is liked by all of us, by Muslims, Hindues, Sikhs and Christians. Budhism is also very close to Sufiism. As we already share Punjabi music we should also try to share other humanistic thoughts. My this request is to the privileged Sikh community. They can do this great job and take initiative to start pure Punjabi TV channel from Amritsar 24 hours. At the end again I dream for the welfare and prosperity of Punjabi nation. All the best wishes. One very aajiz and namaana Punjabi from Pakistan, saeed farani


Name: Prem S Kahlon - July 11, 2001
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Location: nashville , tn     USA
Comments:   Dear Mahmud Sahib I applaud your optimism and I agree that unless you dream you wont get any where.I am reminded of Bobby Kennedy who said,"Some people see things as they are and say why but I dream of things that never were and ask why not".But also please refer to Bait # 4 by the great Darwesh Philosopher Baba Farid of Sakar Gang on this site.I have often used that hymn in my class room for one thing to discuss differences between East and West and also to tell students to temper the expectations in order to have peace of mind. I Often quote Sir Gregory who said, "-----if you want to reach the sky,aim high" then I try to to explain to them what Baba Farid says in Bait # 4.We should Keep our dream alive as you say and one day God willing we will achieve that.For now we should concentrate our efforts on language and culture and not dwell on touchy(emotional) subject of script.Frankly Our language/culture is in danger(sounds pessimist but some truth in it).Only Governments can impose scripts. Nobody ever to my knowledge complained about Arabic script in Punjab before partition. No body complained about Gurmukhi Script eg.in Patiala State where we settled.Only Punjabi( In Gurmukhi script) in All Govt. schools was taught in addition to English in the princely states.All of you are doing great service to the cause of Punjabi culture and I hope that this dialog is not just amongst the lovers of Punjabi.How can we cultivate interest and enthusiasm about Punjabi is a challenge.Those of us who are settled in this country need to be specially concerned about our future generations.If we don't feel proud of our heritage, our children won't either.Regards to every body.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 11, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Respectable Dr. Sahib: Dreams are not wastage of time, atleast let us dream. Surely it will becomes reality some day. Its the success of your efforts and dedication that today the people from both sides are talking on the common grounds and are not claiming the superiority of their scripts.


Name: Manzur Ejaz - July 11, 2001
E-mail: manzurejaz@yahoo.com
Location: Fairfax Station, VA     USA
Comments:   Dear friends, Punjabi script is a complicated political issue which cannot be solved on merits or demerits of competing scripts. Once, Punjabis reach a point where they can develop a collective will and rationale to deal with issues, any script can do. Believe me any of three is as good as the other as far as their utlity to communite is concerned. However, we are far away from that. The issue of script is used (mostly misused) to highlight our differences at the cost of overwhelming similarities otherwise. Enemies of Punjabi are always eager to point out that: since Punjabi doesn't have a common script therefore, its use should be abandoned. A weired logic. Realizing these problems, APNA started transliterating major books in Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi. We have published about two dozen books. And, believe me it has changed a lot as for as the communication between East and non-East Punjab is concerned. Please help us in that. Or find some short term solutions that can help to evolove understanding between different sets of Punjabis. We will decide about the common script once we have common grounds to think. Don't waste your time on an issue which is not in our grasp yet.


Name: Prem S Kahlon - July 10, 2001
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Location: Nashvliie, Tn     USA
Comments:   Punjabi was spoken in Punjab long before the scripts that we are talking about I think, although by different name(S).I suppose the name Punjabi came after the name Punjab was introduced.If that is correct then why don't we just concentrate on the language itself right now because the language is associated with the Punjabi culture.I learnt writing Punjabi in Arabic script in my earlier education because urdu was the only language that was taught in school that I attended before partition.The script brought lot of problems to Punjabi language in East Punjab, because Gurmukhi is associated with Sikh religion, perhaps that is the reason that about 85+ % Punjabi Hindu we are told gave Hindi as their language in 1961 census.In recent years most Punjabees however,idetify themselves with Punjabi language that may be due to the popularity of Punjabi music but also I think people come back to their culture.So I think you can see on this site that there are lots of people who are very proud of their language and culture.Association of Punjabi language with village life and with ignorance unfotunately is not a new phenomena and is not confined to west Punjab.In my 6th grade my teacher told us a joke that a villager went to see his son who was attending FC College Lahore,the son was out side and his father sat down on a cot(manji).His son saw somebody sitting on his "Manji" and shouted,"Meri MAANJI PE KAUN BAITHA HAI".His father turned around and said,"AAP KE PITTA JI BAITHE HAIN".So my fried speaking in Urdu or Hindi has always been considered as sign of higher status.This is not something new.Our brothers and sisters who do that will come back to their roots. just keep faith.As long as there are people who are proud of their culture,Punjabi will thrive.However overemphsis on script will complicate the problem.Punjabi is Punjabi,no matter what script you write in.It is a necessity for a Sikh to learn Gurmukhi to be able to read their scripture and likewise to a Muslim learn Arabic and to a Hindu to learn Devnagri for the same reason.Only thing I asked people not to slander a language because you donot like the script.Language has always been a part of every culture and to deny your culture because you donot like the script you are doing dissevice to yourself and to your future generations(Ofcouce I am not talking about people who are reading and writing on this site, as you know almost all of them are Punjabi loving).How to communicate with East and West in writing,for that I don't have any answer but speaking is not a problem and we should speak punjabi proudly at home as well as with others who understand Punjabi.I do that myself even thogh I may get respond in Hindi/Urdu.Thank you very much for allowing me to give my two cents worth.Long live Punjabi culture.


Name: Saeed Farani - July 10, 2001
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab,      Pakistan
Comments:   Punjabi piyaryo, I hope you have studied the comments of bhai Sameer Jee. He favoured the concept of Roman script for Punjabi. Now, let me give you a few more hints on this issue. It is unfortunately a known fact that ONE PUNJAB of Sufies or Bhaghats or Humanists has been torn out into many peices (As we can say in Punjabi: tan man meray peeR, mera jussa leero-o-leer), mainly into three peices by the aliens, of course with the help of local allies (here keep in mind a known Punjabi proverb, though it is very harsh but with exuse: (Kuti choraaN naal rali hoee ey). Come to the short cut, presently there are three scripts of Punjabi language which are based on mainly three religions; Sikhism, Islam and Hinduism. Though the believers of each religion who are further divided into many sects, have deep attachments with their respective religious scripts. And of course it is their right. This is the most complicated case if we try to solve it with the help of any exisiting script for Punjabi. Muslims will never accept Gurmukhi though it is very good script for Punjabi and Sikhs will not accept Shahmukhi which is allien script for the sons of soil. And Hindus will also not accept Gurmukhi or Shahmukhi. So the only choice for us (for this triaka - Muslim, Sikh and Hindu Punjabies) is the Roman Script which can assist us in learning of modren sciences. Arguments against the roman script are vague because the life is changing so rapidly that it seems everything is being westernised. No one can stop the huge flood of information in English language through net or electronic media and that all is in roman script. In this electro-media age, only those languages will survise whose scripts will be roman. Though Chinese, Japanese and a few other nations are trying very hard to compete western languages but they also understand the importance of English in the net communication and their younger generations, who have international exposure, want to use roman script in thier global communication. That is also the demand of world's interlinked global economy. Today, no country or region can stay in an isolated condition. Global net has broken all the boundary barriers. Markets have expanded at macro level. Now, what happened with ONE PUNJAB and PUNJABI and specially with the Punjabi muslims. Muslims attached themselves with the Arbo-persian script and they leapt over the other corner of the ocean and adopted the language which is full of vocabulary from Arabic , Persian and Turkish. Here I use the term "Saida Khaira" of Sameer Veer. Hindu Punjabies also in reaction turned to their main stream of Hindumat - and tried to clothe the language with the Hindi script and they also jumped toward Hindi. The remainders were Sikh, standing alone in the mid of Punjab. They stick with the Gurumukhi script though which is very close to Hindi. Here one more question arises. The Bangali Muslims could use their original script (non arbo-persian script) of Bangla language without putting danger to their attachment with Islam. Though these KHAIRAS like Molvi Abdul Haq (Baba-e-Urdu) said openely that all the languages other than Urdu are Kafir and are in non-islamic scripts. That showed their mentality to hate each and every thing of this land. So they did. I believe that such hatredness is absolutely against the teachings of Islam. The teaching are based on the purification of hearts as our all Sufi poets said. (Makkey giyaaN gal na mukdi ......) that is why the religion Islam was greatfully admired by Great Baba Guru Nanak Jee. The hormony and brotherhood which was created by the Sufies through their teachings was distorted by these reactionaries and allies of imperial powers. Certainly, there were vested interests of the local and foreign manupulatory groups. So to fulfil their goals against red Asia, bloody wall was created in Punjab. The seeds of sectarianism were spread in Pakistan Punjab. Our kids were used as merseneries in Afghanistan to block the Russsian invasion. The blood of Punjabies is so cheap that it can be thrown any where so easily that no resisitance is there. Go through the poem of Dr. Sir M. Iqbal, "Punjabi Muslman". He says, "Punjabi Muslim is a foolish who can be cheated so easily. He did not explain why it happened. It was not even his business. Actually, we could not build a pyramid of common thoughts. We could nurture ourselves in a sensible way. And due to that our beloved land Punjab became a slaughter-house where we were slaughtered again and again. Now, lets come ahead and make dicisions based on wit and wisdom. For that very puropse one common script is very much required. SO that we could build a pyramid, a solid body with triangled sides meeting in a point. All the best wishes. I wrote these views by sitting in my shop dealing with the customers. C'est la vie. Yours saeed farani


Name: Omar Ali - July 10, 2001
E-mail: omerali50@hotmail.com
Comments:   I just saw a comment by Mr. Kamran Khwaja that use of latinized Turkish has led to decline of Turkish (loss of its rooh). On what does he base this opinion? Turkish language is alive and well in Turkey. in fact, its literature is much greater than it was in Arabic script. Major Turkish Writers like Orhan Pamuk are writing literature that can match any in the world today. Hundreds of newspapers and magazines are published in this language. How has it lost its rooh? In fact, the language reform of Ataturk is likely to outlast all his other efforts. I am not sure if we should switch to Latinized Punjabi, but lets not make sweeping assertions about Turkish without the evidence to back them up. Omar Ali


Name: Sameer - July 09, 2001
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   I am all for roman script for Punjabi. It has already proven its usefulness on internet where Punjabis from both side of the border are communicating with ease. In Pakistan phasing out of shahmukhi will have little consequences because there is so little literature available in shahmukhi Punjabi, mostly the work of sufi poetry. With Urdu on decline due to more useful English in market place, punjabi in roman script will prepare Punjabi children to compete better in market place and job market. Of course, it will be met with fierce resistance from conservatives and mullahs because it will decrease the Punjabis ability to read Islamic literature in Arabic or Arabic script (Urdu, Persian). You can not please all people all the time. A decision at intellectual level must be based on consideration of preserving and propagating Punjabi language among Punjabis. It has to come from Punjabi Muslims because such proposals from Sikhs or Hindus will be looked upon with suspision from conservative Muslim Punjabis. Unfortunately same conservative Punjabi Muslims are responsible for the state of Punjabi language in Pakistan. They first opted for Persian and then Urdu with Punjabi language relegating to secondary or tertiary level importance. Mahmud Fahim: Re: Heer Ranjha. It is better to read cultural than political history from Heer by Waris Shah. It is our own imagination to see political history in it. You must consider the following before assigning metaphors to various characters of story. Waris Shah has believed to have fought against Abdali during one of his several attacks on Punjab. He will not make an invader hero of his epic work. It is Saida Kherra who has first Islamic name (Saeed or Syed), Ranjha is name of a caste. Sehti represent the liberated status of women in Punjab, making her own decisions, that was a thorn in the side of Brahmanism of Ganges plains and later Islamic invading cultures. The status of Punjabi women kept declining from Kurukshetra war (Mahabharata) all the way to deobandism/ wahabism of present. That is why, I believe that reemergence of Punjabi language glory and uplifting of status of women in Punjab will be complementary.


Name: Gurmit Kaur July,9,2001 - July 09, 2001
E-mail: gurmitkaur@hotmail.com
Location: Toronto, Pntario     Canada
Comments:   Dear Friends! It is a wonderful page gives us the chance to share our views with Punjabis all over the World. The question of teaching our children Punjabi it is a difficult task when in this modern world both the parents has to work. Even we want to do it. I have my personal experience that I tried to do it but was not possible. But I remember my personal experience that I used to live in the community where the most of Italian were living. I was so impressed by their efforts that they have a arrangement with the scool board and twice a week they used to send children for extra classes.They used to pay $100/- per year extra money even the education was free. I admired that the way they sorted out. All their children used to know English ,French and Italian. Even the most of the parents knew Italian and little French or English. We should think about can we make some kind of arrangement like this. In Toronto there are some Punjabi teaching arragement by the Sikh Temples but those are all religious. Then these classes are not taught by the professionals teachers they really do not learn too much. These institutions should not be religious. I am not opposed to religion that is their personal belief and we should respect each others beliefs. We should think about how to save our language , cultural and traditions. Let us we all think about the problem and find the ways and means to sort out the problem. Long Live Punjab. Gurmit


Name: saeed farani - July 09, 2001
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab,     Pakistan
Comments:   Dear Mahmud Famim Jee, Yes, you are right. I am the same Saeed Farani of Jhelum who worked a lot on Esperanto language but in Pakistan there is another great esperantist Allama Muztar Abbasi of Murree who worked even more than me. I spent almost ten years for the promostion of Esperanto. I wish I could spend those years serving my mother tongue Punjabi which was deserving more. In Persian there is a proverb "Ovval Khuwaish baad darwaish" or charity begins at home. But Esperanto language helped me a lot to understand this language conflict in Pakistan. Esperanto also taught me to love one's own mother language becuase Esperanto is against all sort of language hegemony or supression. In 1987, I was visiting Lubliana, the capital city of Slovania where my one friend Branka Levachich took me to their national library. She was proudly showing me thosands of books. When I asked her in which language these books are? She said by beating her upper front (Chchati tey hath mar key, baRey confidence dey naal, "These all books are in my mother language 'Slovanic'." I felt sad that a language of just a few lakh people (less than 4 million) is so rich and what about my mother tongue that is the language of 10 crores (100 millions) people is so badly rejected and cornered specially in our area in Pakistan. If anyone's language is rejected and not given a due respect at his home then the person or the nation is considered as low graded. So by travelling around the world through Esperanto I noticed one thing with great interest that how people love their mother languages. Just see our Pathans they speak Pushto with great pride. Even a KHOTEY WALA pathan will talk to a Commissioner Pathan beaurocrate in Pushto in ease and confidently. But the case with us is quite different even opposite. So if we want to live with pride and honour (it does not mean any superiority complex, it means that we are demanding our rights on equal bases) then we have to promote our mother language. We have to find the ways that Muslim Punjabies could turn toward their mohter language. All the best wishes for those who are struggling for Punjabi. Tuhada apna, saeed farani


Name: Tariq Umar Chauhdry - July 08, 2001
E-mail: tariquch@hotmail.com
Location: Esperanto Markaz, Chowk Shahidan, Multan.,      Pakistan
Comments:   Asalam o alikum I am so proud of you all, to bring us togather. I am impressed by the work that you all do. This is great web site for promotion of Punjabi. How can one become member of your organization? My address: Tariq Umar Chauhdry, Esperanto Markaz, P.O.Kesto 555, Chowk Shahidan, Multan, Pakistan. ph. 092-061-548779, E-mail: tariquch@hotmail.com Best wishes to all workers of "Apna" and congraatulations to all Punjabi brothers and sisters. Thanks.


Name: Zahra - July 07, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   I owe the readers a little more detail on the Tea House concept. I will come back with that later Inshallah. Thanks


Name: Khawaja Kamran Sadiq - July 07, 2001
E-mail: kamran_khawaja@hotmail.com
Location: Toronto, ON     CAN
Comments:   Greetings. I believe that the use of the greaco/roman script would serve to signal the ultimate demise of the Punjabi language. In essence, a language must maintain its script, be it shahmukhi or gurmukhi respectively [note Turkish, and its post-Ataturk loss of 'rooh']. Regarding the inability of the younger people to read/write the mentioned scripts, this could very well be a temporary state, as gaining familiarity with a script is not overly difficult. What is required though, is a conscious effort within families to revive the mother tongue [spoken/written/read]. Perhaps I am overly conservative, but I would never feel comfortable reading Punjabi in a foreign script. Though, one could surely argue that the introduction of Farsi into the Punjab, and hence the Arabo/Persian script, should also be seen as a foreign script...Anyhow, it is a sad state of affairs when a university student does not know of any [other] Punjabis who have an ounce of familiarity with 'their' script. I for one, will always hope to find Punjabi written in the nastaliq font. go leafs go. Rab ruk.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 07, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   The main hurdle in case of roman script is that we will loose many sounds which cannot be voiced under the roman script. But we can introduce some signs on the normal alphabets or new alphabets to fullfill this. It will take time but its the best way to eliminate the difference between the two existing scripts. I think that Mr. Saeed did a lot of work on Espranto, am I right? Regards, Mahmud


Name: Saeed Farani - July 06, 2001
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   The idea of Ms. Zahra and Bhai Safir jee about Pak Tea Cyber or Cafe (Punjabi net cafe) is great but I think first you need to introduce a common Roman scrip for the language. So that all the punjabies (Muslim, Sikh, Hindu and others) could write in that script. Roman script will be a great service to Punjabi. Anyone studying linguistics in the States or Canada or UK can do this job. This script will also be very helpful for all sort of modern education. And the brains of all the Punjabies irrespective of their religious affiliations could be gathered at one place for the progress of our nation as a whole. All the best wishes.


Name: Safir Rammah - July 06, 2001
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, VA     USA
Comments:   Yes, Lahore lost part of its soul with the demise of Pak Tea House. I do think that Zahra's idea about Cyber Tea House or Cafe is worth pursuing. Any thoughts?


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 06, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Ref to Zahra, Pak Tea House was ended due to the financial problems of the owner. It was a trgedy that now its a tyre store over there. All the road is a tyre centre and the owner who is actually son of the founder of the Tea House needed money to meet his ends, so it happened. Most of the writers just wrote few lines in the columns and did nothing practically to stop this. It is also a fact that materially may be they are not capable to do something. It is a TRAGEDY, may be our fate or the fruit of our actions. Regards, Mahmud


Name: Zahra - July 05, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Dr. Sager: An interesting intro. I checked out your internet magazine and it looked quite nice. I think there have been a lot of magazines and other "nukkars" on the cyber space where people can read and contribute. What's not very commonly found is a "Tea-House!" I am sure if you've been to Lahore or you grew up there then you would know of the "Pak-Tea House." I think it is no longer functioning due to some renovations or other problems, but most of the times the poets and writers and wise ones will sit there and share their notes/latest work with other participants. I have heard the above from my father, who during his law college days, will visit Pak-Tea House with his friends and listen to the poets and writers. I would question what is Upnaa Punjab going to deliver to the masses in Australia ? Unfortunately, the Punjabi Youth is not that well versed with the poetry, literature and folk tales. There is more emphasis on crude jokes and silly pleasantries than the real substance, therefore you will not find many youngsters who will spend their energies learning Punjabi. Culture is promoted when you convey the substance to your youth than silly jokes and retarded sense of humor. I hope you got my drift. Good Luck in your endeavors!


Name: Prof. Dr. Khalid Rashid Sager - July 04, 2001
E-mail: drsager@start.com.au
My URL: http://www.goonj.com.pk
Location: Sydney,      Australia
Comments:   I am Dr Khalid Rashid Sager an Australian Muslim Doctor of Pakistani origin. I was born in Lahore therefore I speak and understand Punjabi. My mother tongue however is Saraiki (Multani), which has been wrongly called a dialect of Punjabi. I really like the good work you people are doing. It took me about half hour to read all the comments posted by Punjabi lovers all over the Globe. I however do not agree with Mr Karanmjit Singh Bains when he says that Saraiki is a dialect of Punjabi. I can enter in a discussion with him about it if he wishes because it is a very vast subject. I am a student of Gurmukhi script. I am also producing a bilingual Newspaper by the name of ' Overseas Fortnightly' from Sydney, Australia. I am also updating an online Magazine by the name of GOONJ, which can be read at www.goonj.com.pk. I would request all your readers to kindly go there, read it and please give me comments. I am also producing two radio programs by the names of ' Mehfil', which is in Urdu and the other one, be the name of ' Apna Punjab', which is purely in Punjabi. I have been receiving few of your emails and am delighted to know about the efforts you are putting in promoting Punjabi language all over the world. I would like to become one of your supporter and a member in Australia and would like to work actively to recruit more members from Australia and from wherever I have contacts. Please make me your member. My details are as follows: Prof. Dr. Khalid Rashid Sager Tel (612) 97933442 Fax (612) 97933330 Mobile: (612) 400331779 email:drsager@start.com.au Address: 71-Jacobs Street Bankstown NSW 2200 Australia I am also looking for Punjabi friends all over the world to exchange emails etc and to share knowledge and wisdom. Please feel free to write to me.


Name: Zahra - July 03, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Dear Mr. Rammah: Please find the CD names and the links below. I will post additional ones later. 1). The Last Prophet http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/music/B000000HP6/qid=994228756/sr=1-21/103-9619710-2198258 2). Rapture http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/music/B000003QFJ/qid=994228756/sr=1-11/103-9619710-2198258 3). Greatest Hits. Volume 2 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/music/B000007MZI/qid=994228756/sr=1-5/103-9619710-2198258 4). Shahbazz http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/music/B000000HOC/qid=994228756/sr=1-12/103-9619710-2198258 5). Day, Night, Dawn, Dusk http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/music/B000000E2V/qid=994228756/sr=1-15/103-9619710-2198258 6). Farewell Song: Alwadah http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/music/B000005X5P/qid=994228756/sr=1-17/103-9619710-2198258 7). Hommage A Nusrat Ali Khan http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/music/B00000I3XI/qid=994228756/sr=1-18/103-9619710-2198258 8). Magic Touch http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/music/B000040JD1/qid=994228756/sr=1-24/103-9619710-2198258 9). Revelation http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/music/B000003ZOD/qid=994229274/sr=1-31/103-9619710-2198258 10). Mega Star http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/music/B000003ZOM/qid=994229470/sr=1-8/103-9619710-2198258


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 03, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Ref to Sammer posting June 16, 2001: At the end of Heer, Shah Sahib gave the metaphysical interpretation of all the characters. Since I am a student of Punjabi and I really appreciate your efforts to see the whole story into a political perspective. As far as your interpretations are concerned, I am looking it with slightly different angel. If we take the culture of Punjab and its history in our minds than I may be able to convey you my approach easily. Heer is Land or Dharti but Ranjha is an invader who was fascinated by the land due to its beauty. Whereas Kaido is Native's upper class elite who represents king makers. Mullah is the clergy. With the help of clergy, Kaido tries to transfer the power to comparatively lower native class that is Saida Khaerra. It was all due to the reaction of masses that are friends of the Heer. Rabeel Baandi is the lower administration who is also with invader may be due to caste system . The character of Sehti is interesting who is the main conspirer against the natives. The transformation of Ranjha into Jogi shows that how the invaders absorbed in the native society. Raja Addalli is the conscious. When we read Heer now we can see the Waris Shah's vision and intution covers all the history either it was the invasion of Arriyans or the Muslims or the Britisheres. In future we will try to see the other classical works. Regards


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 02, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Ref. to Dr. Manzur Ejaz's March 30, 2001: Massive industrialization is best solution for the Punjab but the question how it comes. The most effective thing comes from the grass root level and unfortunately this level is supressed from centuries. The caste system is manipulated in the way that it becomes a part of faith. I think the first step in this regard to fix a limit for the possession of land for any individual. In India it was implimented and in Pakistan it was just proposed and exploited. After this even than it will take a long time. Anyhow we have the right to dream. Regards, Mahmud


Name: Mahmud - July 02, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Ms Bushra: Fortunately I personally know the family of Nobel Laureate Prof. Salam who was a great punjabi and he did not speak any other language except Punjabi at home. His mother was fortunately not the type you idealize. Similarly I know and read about many other great punjabi thinkers and creative people of this era whose families are typical examples. The families having approach like yours are still loosing their kids and culture. You again asking about pardah which may be you don't know is a part of our culture in the form of GHUNGHAT and I believe on it. Can you please give any legend example of any punjabi in favour of your approach? I have many for my approach. Regards, Mahmud


Name: Jagjit Sandhu - July 01, 2001
E-mail: jagjitsandhu@yahoo.com
Comments:   Dear Rammah sahib I have a suggestion on what and how literary texts I would like to see. I have seen that you guys have posted most of the West Punjabi writers in Shahmukhi script section and only Shiv in the Gurmukhi section from East. Since West Punjabis don't know(mostly) Gurmukhi so it would be best to post East Punjabi writers in Shahmukhi and West Punjabi writers in Gurmukhi as most on Eastern side don't know Shahmukhi script. That will really help us read stuff from the other side. Of course eventually All can be posted in both scripts but at this early stage my above suggesiton might work better.


Name: Bushra Khan - July 01, 2001
E-mail: khanbushra@hotmail.com
Location: New york,      USA
Comments:   Mr.Mahmood Fahim: You are digging in deeper with each posting. First you proclaimed that to teach Punjabi language to the next generation, all Punjabi mothers should drop their aspirations of careers and life outside the home. They should stay home for the sake of continuation of Punjabi to the next generation. Now you have another brilliant idea. Punjabi is our mother toungue, not Father's!!! WOW. I must solute you for that. Can't wait for your next inspiration on these lines. So, the idea was for your wife to get education and than work outside the home, but then came the children. At least you found out that women tend to have children after marriage, although you learned this too late, I mean after spending the time and resources on your wife's education. My dear, why hide behind your claimed love for Punjabi. Why not come out straight and say that Punjabi or no Punjabi, in your opinion women's place is at home. Period. Your silence on the question of purdah is revealing. I do sympathise with you for having to work on more than two jobs. Why not share the burden both at home at at earning a living?


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 01, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   I tried to add my comments before but not viewed even after refreshing, so I have to do it again. Reference to Ms Bushra's comments which are Without understanding the text and going through the fine print. Don't be so personal and just give your view. I don't want to point out your personality traits from your comments because its neither my job nor the purpose of this forum. But I want to clear you about myself because you raised it on the forum. My wife was bachelor when we married and after the birth of two kids she did her Masters in Political Science and did professional Degree in education. It was all due to our mutual understanding and cooperation. After doing few months job, she decided to stay at home for the betterment of kids and it has been proved from the kids results that her decision was right. I have to do more than two jobs, but we are satisfied. So dont be so hasty in your reservations. Punjabi is our Mother Tongue not father's so its mother's prime responsibility in all the cultures to save and transform it to the next generations. Regards, Mahmud


Name: Zahra - July 01, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Mr. Rammah: The songs that I have listed can be found on Amazon.Com. Most of them can be listened via real player. But there is something jiss kee mujhae sumujh naheen ayee. The songs on amazon's site are hardly 1 minute or 2 long, whereas the ones you have on your site they are all full songs. Anyway, you should check out the Amazon's CDs. I can provide you with the CD's names as well. I happen to be a collector of Nusrat's CDs. I will be able to do that by the end of next week. But in the meantime, check out:[i]- The Last Prophet[/i] Thanks


Name: Safir Rammah - July 01, 2001
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, Va     USA
Comments:   Dear Zahra Jamshed: First, thanks for recommending Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan's songs. I will try to find these songs and add Nusrat's page.

You are right that these isn't much here for formatting. In the beginning, I wasn't sure what kind of response we will get, so we began with a simple program. We may later convert this forum to a more sophisticated and thread-based discussion groups. You can always use any HTML command to format the appearance of your text.


Name: Zahra - July 01, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Question: It seems that only the APNA members can use certain formatting functions. Is that correct? I am not able to see my points written the way I write them in the window. Kyoun ? Can anyone please tell me if I need to do something on my end? Thanks


Name: Zahra - July 01, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Well, Well, Well... Agreements and disagreements are part and parcel of any discussion. That's what is known as bringing a new perspective to the picture. If the intent is to just praise and "mala jupnaa" of this website, prose and poetry then a discussion forum will be useless. I think the intent of any discussion forum is to bring stimulating points that may be different from how person X sees the world or person Y leads his/her life. Disagreements must take place, only then, the other side will care to share their perspective otherwise there won't be anything new to read and learn from. I will take another example: Saeed Farani's post was very straight-forward and forthright. There was no harshness in the post at all. He simply spoke of his views and that's perfectly fine. I agree as well as disagree with a few of his points, basically on the way things were handled, so I will bring my perspective. As a result, some will accept the rationale behind my thoughts and some will discard it. That's perfectly fine. But any discussion should take place based on the views expressed in black and white than the gender, who's caring to narrate her/his views vociferously. I understand we have people from different age group on this board and it may not be very comfortable for them to be challenged on their stance, but that's part of learning. And it's high time, we develop that mettle to look beyond genders. I hope it is NOT asking too much :-)


Name: Bushra - July 01, 2001
E-mail: khanbushra@hotmil.com
Location: New York,      USA
Comments:   Mr. Fahim: Which part of Zuhra's posting you don't understand that you had to repeat your posting three times? This forum is to discuss issues surrounding Punjabi and Punjabiat. You better find some other forum to express your male chauvinism. I bet that you have forbidden your wife to work outside the home, treat her as a second class citizen and you have forced her or convinced her to wear pardah. Tell me honestly, isn't it true that she is not allowed to come in front of a real dangerous species – men? Zuhra is abslolutely right when she says that "I have come across far more well-balanced and secure kids who had working mothers than vice versa." Do you know why? Because these kids have grown in a far far more healthier environment than those homes where mothers are treated like slaves. Wake up my dear, I think you must have arrived in the USA recently from some mullah controlled society. Once again, this forum is for discussions on Punjabi, not about how you want to control and mistreat women on one pretext or another.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 01, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Everyone has the right of choice, so if someone disagree that's fine. My understanding is on the basis of my experience and I want to share it with you. I said "atleast mother should be at home" which was misunderstood. I wrote: I understand over here that when both of the parents are working and they put their kids either in the back up schools or to the baby sitters, they are going to loose the language and culture. If the kids have to spend more than eight hours outside the home during their most tender age, how can you expect understanding of your language and culture from them. They are not able to even talk or discuss any matter with you. They just take the home as a sleeping place. On the weekends most of the working couples have their own time of rest and activities, so the gap becomes widened day by day. SO to resume this problem, first of all atleast mother should be at home when the normal school hours end. The kids should have attraction at home that some one is waiting for them and gives care to them. Than from the begining they should learn how to write and read their mother language. Don't allow the kids to speak to you normally in other language. I experienced it in my home. You have to put effort for it, just the feelings is nothing. Only speaking of a language is a small thing, and the the next generation of the spoken kids will loose it over here in USA. So try to give the kids real essence of language by telling them stories at bed time in Punjabi. Transform the Punjabi classical works in simple and short stories. Same thing with the Lorries, the bedtime poems. Without practical efforts, it will be just a dream. Regards, Mahmud Fahim


Name: Khawaja Kamran Sadiq - June 30, 2001
E-mail: kamran_khawaja@hotmail.com
Location: Toronto, ON     CANADA
Comments:   Hello to all punjabi pein/pravah. Having been absent from discussion for the past week or so, seems i have missed quite abit. Just would like to say that having been born and bred in the west, i feel safe to say that the 'kar da mahal' is the prime factor in determining whether or not the language is saved. Regardless of the other influences children face, the use of punjabi as the mother tongue rests solely on the parents' shoulders. Raised in Canada, i never heard urdu in the home, but i did hear punjabi, and [Rab da shukar] i took an interest in furthering my proficiency in the past few years. I can not speak for people in Lahore or whatnot, but i do know that if a family in the west wishes to keep the mother tougue, surely they can accomplish this...Mubarakah-o-vadiah to the admin. of the website, thus giving a forum for us 'farangi' punjabi speakers to grab onto, keep it up. Khodahafez-o-Rab ruk.


Name: Zahra - June 29, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Mr. Rammah: Please checkout the following as they are not on under the Nusrat's link and are real classics. 1. Mun Utkiyaa Bae'Purvaah Dae Naal 2. Mera Piya Ghar Aaya 3. Chun Sujnaa Moar Muhaar 4. Ukheeyaan Udeek Deeyaan 5. Nee Main Jana Jogi Dae Naal 6. Gali Dae Wichoan Kaun LungYa 7. Saheb Taeree Bandi-aan Mundee-aan Keh Chungi-aan 8. Ganj'ae'Shakar 9. Nit Khair Mansan Sohnia Main Teri 10.Akh Lai Mein Jadon Di Tere 11. Dam Mast Qalandar


Name: Zahra - June 29, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Dear Safir Rammah: You have raised some interesting points that are debateable and I want to do some dissection of point # 2 and 3 in particular. I hope you will participate in the discussion. Just wanted to let you know that the music site is very nicely put together. I would like to send you some links to Nusrat's nicer Punjabi Singles. Please also put them on the music site. Currently, the songs you have by Nusrat are quite sad and depressing. Rest of my comments will come later. Best Regards on a well-put site!


Name: Safir Rammah - June 29, 2001
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, Va     USA
Comments:   Zahara Jamshed has begun an interesting discussion by commenting on the previous posting by Saeed Farrani. I would briefly state here APNA's point of view on this issue and leave the rest for others to comment on.

APNA firmly believes that the medium of education in West Punjab's government schools must be changed from Urdu to Punjabi. Without going into much detail, let me state a few reasons as to why we have come to this conclusion:

1. We firmly believe that Punjabi is among the most viable languages in the world. It is a true statement based on all pertinent criteria that one may use to judge the viability of a language including but not limited to: the different stages of its natural development that it had gone through over more than two thousand years; number of native speakers; vastness and depth of vocabulary; richness and variety of literature, etc.

2. We concur with the consensus of experts in the field of formal education that primary education for children must be provided in their native language. There is absolutely no reason why the majority of West Punjabi children should be unfairly disadvantaged by forcing them to learn, speak, write and think from grade 1 on in a language that is not spoken in their homes.

3. We also believe that language, more than anything else, is the primary vehicle in the continuation of any culture. Words of any language have many and different connotations that can only be understood and appreciated by the native speakers and they carry with them the life experience of all past generations. Break the language link, and you end up in transplanting a child in a totally different cultural and social environment. A graduate of an Urdu medium school can better relate with the life experience of 18th and 19th century Delhi and Lakhnow residents that he learned through exclusively reading the poetry of classical Urdu poets than with his own forefathers.

4. We also believe that the native language is the only genuine and true medium of expression for any nationality, in particular for communicating their emotions and feelings to each other. Millions of Punjabi sons and daughters who even today write letters to their Punjabi speaking parents in Urdu are missing something so vital that if we sit down for a few moments and ponder on this phenomena, we will soon come to the conclusion that it is a crime against a whole nation to deprive them the proper training in written and/or spoken expression in their own language.

I invite anyone who wants to explore this point further to carefully read Shiv Kumar Batalvi's poem "Bhatti Waliye." Like the poetry of any great poet (and Shiv was not doubt one of the greatest poets of the second half of 20th century), Shiv's poetry also has many layers of meanings and expressions. At one level, one may compare him with generations of Punjabi poets who through formal training had only learned to express themselves in Urdu and Persian symbols. Shiv doesn't have to go beyond his natural environment. A Bhatti Wali of his native village could convert his raw pain into something so meaningful that he can then have the courage to travel the tough road of his destiny.

5. We also believe that lack of primary and secondary education has created a vicious circle that is the main impediment in the growth of Punjabi language in West Punjab. One can easily see this direct relationship between the medium of school instructions in a certain language and the viability of published media in that language. In West Punjab, where Urdu and, to some extent, English are the medium of instruction, these languages dominate the published media. On the other hand in Sindh and East Punjab where native languages are the medium of instruction in schools, there is a large circulation of newspapers, etc., that are published in native languages.

6. Oue view is that the current situation where generations of Punjabis have been required to learn Urdu instead of their native language Punjabi in the schools for the last 150+ years is not an Act of God. Rather, it is the result of conscious (and wrong) decisions made by various administrations that have ruled over Punjab, beginning with the earliest British administrators of Punjab after 1849.

One can disagree on many of the points I have raised above. We can argue about the history of who is responsible for imposing Urdu on West Punjab, whether it is Punjabi's themselves or some aliens. Regardless of one's views about the historical and political reasons, the fact remains that for all the good or bad intentions and right or wrong reason's Punjabi is not the medium of instructions in West Punjab.

We believe that it is wrong.


Name: Zahra - June 29, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Mahmud Faheem: The mother in my episode was a full-time housewife. Completely unaware of the working women's routine and etc. So, I will disagree with your plea. Also, I have come across far more well-balanced and secure kids who had working mothers than vice versa. There is some responsibility on the fathers as well. And that should not be taken lightly :-) I have some additional comments on the PTV thing that Mr. Farani has raised. His observations were very insightful. - later,


Name: Mahmud Fahim - June 29, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Reference to Zahra's comments: I understand over here that when both of the parents are working and they put their kids either in the back up schools or to the baby sitters, they are going to loose the language and culture. If the kids have to spend more than eight hours outside the home during their most tender age, how can you expect understanding of your language and culture from them. They are not able to even talk or discuss any matter with you. They just take the home as a sleeping place. On the weekends most of the working couples have their own time of rest and activities, so the gap becomes widened day by day. SO to resume this problem, first of all atleast mother should be at home when the normal school hours end. The kids should have attraction at home that some one is waiting for them and gives care to them. Than from the begining they should learn how to write and read their mother language. Don't allow the kids to speak to you normally in other language. Regards.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - June 29, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Reference to Zahra's comments: I understand over here that when both of the parents are working and they put their kids either in the back up schools or to the baby sitters, they are going to loose the language and culture. If the kids have to spend more than eight hours outside the home during their most tender age, how can you expect understanding of your language and culture from them. They are not able to even talk or discuss any matter with you. They just take the home as a sleeping place. On the weekends most of the working couples have their own time of rest and activities, so the gap becomes widened day by day. SO to resume this problem, first of all atleast mother should be at home when the normal school hours end. The kids should have attraction at home that some one is waiting for them and gives care to them. Than from the begining they should learn how to write and read their mother language. Don't allow the kids to speak to you normally in other language. Regards.


Name: Zahra - June 28, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Some Additional Comments on Saeed Farani's post: I would like to state an episode: Few years back, I ran into a Pakistani family[Urdu Speaking] who had two daughters in the US. The daughters were younger to me about 5-6 years. I was in my graduate school whereas they were in their late teens. Surprisingly, both of them could hardly utter a single word of Urdu. They would only converse in English. The mother would speak to her daughters in Urdu and they will respond to her in English. I questioned the auntie that how come her children do not speak when she is so particular. She did not have a valid answer. I asked her daughters and they told me that they can try but they are hesitant. As soon as they try saying something in Urdu they are corrected by ten people around them. They find it confidence shaking than building. This kind of perfectionist attitude is only good when a teen-ager is at stage 1 and is mastering to be at 2. If they have not even treaded stage 1 and are condemned and criticized, obviously they will feel bad and will feel hesitant. This was just an example. If the elders lack the patience to teach the young ones than that's pretty sad. Also, the elders must have some control on their emotions. I can well relate to Mr. Farani's heartfelt concern, but I think his reaction was pretty emotional than well-thoughtout. Next time, if the seniors, professors, linguists, and teachers would rather sit with the younger ones and talk to them about: - a beautiful kafi or - a folk story or - a stanza of Heer or - some old sayings and the reason behind them than condemning them for not exchanging pleasantries in Punjabi - that will be a real service to the language and to the culture behind the language. That's just my personal view. How else did the concept of teacher - disciples came into existance ? Communication! Teachings! Lessons! Learning! What's the use of Jaa'gnaa'[waking up and being alert]when you are not even aware of what is Jaagnaa ? Regards.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - June 28, 2001
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Location: Vienna, VA     USA
Comments:   Sohnay Punjabi Mitro, A great folk singer Hamid Ali Bela passed away yesterday. It is really a great loss for the folk lovers. I just join the site and I think the education system or any political system does not have deep effects on the language and literature. Lanuage is dynamic and it changes its versions by the time and the tide. It grows from the masses and masses always stick with the roots. Even in the period of Maharaja Ranjeet Singh, the official lanuage was Persian with its own text. Can you please throw the light on the start of gurmukhi and shamukhi texts. From where they bifercate and which is the original one?


Name: Punjabi Malang - June 27, 2001
E-mail: punjabimalang@lahore.com
Comments:   Yes. Punjabi elite has been khassi as brother Farani said in his post. Even if they are sitting on the Education Board they won't do anything. BUT that does not mean that it has been a conscious decision on the part of Punjabis as whole to do away with their own mother language. For God's sake 70% of them can't even read in year 2001, 54 years after that decision.


Name: Zahra - June 27, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Mr. Malang: I think you forgot to read the whole passage and only took out the first sentence. Let me repeat my question: - Who runs the Board of Education ? Do not tell me that Talebans or any other extra-terrestrial beings have taken over and anarchy is prevalent.


Name: Punjabi Malang - June 27, 2001
E-mail: Punjabimalang@Lahore.com
Comments:   Zahra Said "I completely disagree with this theory about government's intrusion in enforcing Urdu. I think the basics of any language have to be taught by the parents. If they do not teach, who is the government to teach anything. " Once again why is Govt teaching Urdu in schools and not other local languages? You missed Farani's point. He is correct.


Name: MIC - June 27, 2001
E-mail: iqbalchohan@yahoo.com
Location: Al-Khobar, eastern     Saudi Arabia
Comments:   While searching local punjabi music suddenly find your site, by reviewing you can't imagine how feel proudy. At least there is a forum we can have our own choice. In music found all categories and specially thanks for including Shahida Perven. If you don't mind could it possible to include punjabi local vocalist like Mansoor Malangi and Allah Ditta Lonewala, etc.


Name: Zahra - June 26, 2001
E-mail: Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Well, I have been visiting this site for the past couple of years and it has become richer over the past few years. The recent music selection posted by Mr.Rammah was excellent choice, though I think there are quite a few great numbers by Nusrat Fateh Ali that are missing. I will be more than glad to provide that list. Overall, an excellent improvement from the previous version. Mr. Saeed Farani: I read your views with great delight and amusement. I do not know if I should use the word amusement here, but I could not resist doing that. Your sister's comments on the language were quite interesting. Having grown up in Lahore myself, I can tell you a few things: a) The youngsters may not speak the language but still on all the Mehndis the well sung songs are in Punjabi. Celebrations are a big thing in one's life. After spending 7-8 years in the US, as I went back to attend my brother's wedding last year, the first thing that came out on the Mehndi was a very old song that I have heard on all my family weddings as a kid. I was the one to initiate it being the sister of the bride-groom and I have not grown up speaking Punjabi myself. But have the listening comprehension as my father speaks the language. So music and poetry are great intros to any language, aside from the basic pleasantries. In fact, as I initiated the song, I was taken aback for a moment that how come I still remember that. ~Dae'Saan Daa Raja Mae'rae Babul Daa Pyara UmRee Dae Dil Sahara Nee Veer Maeraee Ghori Churyaa b) Most of the times the men have more opportunity to learn the intricacies of the language than women. As a result, they are able to gather different dialects, expressions, verbiage and etc etc. But mostly, I found that the language is spoken amongst the men than the women. Now, this was in Pakistan. In the US, I found out a different practice. The young women who moved to North America at an early age [8-14 years] are very fluent in Punjabi. And I am talking about Pakistanis as well as Sikhs. I think that happens also because you are away from your base and you tend to hang on to your cultural things. c)I completely disagree with this theory about government's intrusion in enforcing Urdu. I think the basics of any language have to be taught by the parents. If they do not teach, who is the government to teach anything. Yes, what the board of education must do is to introduce Punjabi Poetry in the curriculum. I think poetry introduces a lot about the culture and the concepts of any language. How else do we know about any poet's thought process? Visiting Waris Shah's Mazar was a very interesting experience last year. My impression about the place was very different when I visited, as a kid. My recent visit was pleasantly surprising. I was amazed to find a very well constructed complex there. The architecture of the whole place and the way the halls were built was astonishing. It was very quiet and respectful. I was told by the care-takers that in summers there is a poetry contest, where Heer is recited by various local poets. So, that was very heart warming to hear. Probably, the board of education should wake up and update the curriculum for a change. After all, it is not that the board of education has been taken over by some foreigners and people have no authority to express their valid opinion. It's all on the people! Do not tell me that there is not any Punjabi in the board of education in Punjab. Something to look into. I will continue with few other observations later... PS: Your write-up was very sweet and nice. But I also have some comments the way you reacted to your niece's question. I will come back with that later. Regards.


Name: Dr. Javed Zaki, Department of Sociology, Michigan State University - June 26, 2001
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com/poetry/zaki
Location: East Lansing, mi     USA
Comments:   An excellent job. Apna web-page is becoming a geat source of panjabi literature, both contemporary and classical. I hope whole kalaam of Khawja Ghulam Farid will also be posted soon. It broght back a lot of memories by listening to Shah Hussain's kaafis sung by Hamid Ali Bela and Wadalli brothers (they are great). Manzur and Safir Ji lakhh lakhh wadahiaan. I am posting a new 'Kaafi' for the enjoyment of everyone.

N = noon n = noon ghunna r = Re R = Are e = aey

Assaan aap na akhhiaan laaiaan
Sade laikhhaan likhhiaan saaiaan
Ishq holariaan hosh bhulai
Yaar bahjoon kai she na bhaai
Akko sorat akhhiaan chaai
phhir di jaaiaan jaaiaan
Pei phhir jaaiaan jaaiaan
Saade laikhhaan ----------
Zehr iklapa tun mun khhaae
Kis it jaanvaan samjh na aae
Ja sajnaan koi haal sonaae
Sassi roop rachaiaan
mein sassi roop rachaiaan
Saade laikhhaan ----------
Waang roahi mera under bulda
Be-parvah koi saar na ghalda
kih bhar-vaasa pal do pal da
Magroon lehn judaiaan
Saade magroon lehn judaiaan
Saade lakhhaan likhhaan saaiaan


Name: DullaBhatti - June 18, 2001
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   While searchign for some Punjabi music I bumped inot this list of tapes by Oriental Star Agencies. They have very good folk Punjabi music. One aprticular singer group Siddiq Ragi and Sharif Ragi have sung almost every folktale of Punjab like Jamal Fateh, Kaulan,sassi, heer, mirza, sohni, Dholl Sammi, Jeona Morr, Malki Keema, Hari Chand, Puran Bhagat etc. http://www.osa.co.uk/Tapes%20by%20Catalogue%20Number.html


Name: Khawaja Kamran Sadiq - June 16, 2001
E-mail: kamran_khawaja@hotmail.com
Location: Toronto, ON     CANADA
Comments:   hello to you all. having read few of the recent postings, i felt it would only be just for me to raise the following issue. i can not accept anyone 'demonising' islam in the punjab. granted, many have seemingly taken the position that islam and punjabiat are polorised, but the reality of the situation is surely far from this. anyone with an ounce of true understanding of islam will know that the religion is welcoming to all cultures. to label the 'invaders' from central asia/arabia as such does not help, seeing as how it was the said peoples who essentially forged the punjabi culture as we know it today. punjabi muslims must understand this, and realise that their culture and religion are intertwined at their respective roots. also, the connotation that punjabi as a language/culture seems to have grown in pakistan [esp.] must be shed. punjabi is not a sikh language, but it is the language of the punjab, whose native speakers are mostly muslim. the language existed long before the birth of sikhism and/or islam. regarding this, punjabis everywhere must make a calculated effort to hold onto the mother tongue, and not allow a foreign language (urdu/hindi) to take its role. that is all for now, hope to hear vat you guys think. Khodahafez-o-Rab ruk.


Name: Sameer - June 16, 2001
E-mail: sameerjb@yahoo.com
Location: New York, NY     USA
Comments:   Saeed Farani: You do have passion for Punjabi culture that is, sadly, missing among most Punjabi Muslims. It is not my intention to discuss the political and historical reasons for this lukewarm interest, they have become accustomed to during the later part of the last century. I would like to touch upon three areas from a lay person's perspective that you have mentioned, namely reading Heer Waris Shah allegorically, meaning of being a Punjabi and the future of Punjabi culture. Many interpretations, including the one you mentioned and one by Dr. Manzur Ejaz deal with the changes made in the original story by Damodar Das, by various authors at various times. These changes reflect the changing socio-political scene and various phases of Islam in Punjab since conversion. The analyses of intellectuals in this field are very valuable tools to understand the changing social fabric of Punjab over the last five centuries. One of the interpretations most appealing to me is either by some one, Anonymous, or just figment of my own imagination. It deals with Heer by Waris Shah only. Just think of Heer as land (dharti), Ranjha as Punjabis, Kaido as Abdali, Timur or any other plunderer and Saida Khera as Muslim culture of Arabia or Central Asia, alien to native Punjabi culture. The love between land and its people is always legendary in most cultures, except for Punjabi Muslims recently. The culture of invaders or plunderers had no respect for it. They tried to break this bond during and following conversion to Islam period. Ghaznavi, Ghauri, Timur and Abdali would be considered flag bearer of this villainous act and Kaido metaphor aptly represents it. The mullah conspires with kaido and marries land (Heer) to Saida Khera (Muslim culture) against the wishes of Heer. Mullahs have been the bulwarks of this tendency during the last 200 or so years. The Hindu raja (native resistance) tries unsuccessfully to reunite land to its people in their culture but fails. Similarly, Ranjha finds more peace of mind and improves his chances of winning Heer by becoming a jogi (native or native culture) but ultimately fails due to Kaido (repeated plundering, say, by Abdali). The story of Heer, metaphorically becomes the history of Punjab. A good Punjabi is a passionate Punjabi. Just being in love with Punjab/ Punjabi culture could be passive too. One must adore it or infatuated with it. It makes a lot of difference to have Punjabi identity as prime defining one or relegated to a lower level. It is lot easy for it to be number one identity for Diaspora Punjabis; not that easy for being a member of nation-states of India or Pakistan. The nations demand national identity as number one. However, national identity is only important in national arena. They should not oppose to flowering of local/ native cultures that are held in utmost esteem as common heritage of countless generations. The area of identity is generally defined by a minimum of three points, land, people and culture- a triangle. Anything less than three points are not sufficient to cover any area. Again, Diaspora Punjabis are an exception although it can be argued that they keep the memory of land alive in their hearts. Attempt to detach Punjabi Muslims from their culture leaves them with only two points, the land and people. They may call themselves Punjabi but that identity is meaningless because it is unable to cover any area and thus remain imaginary. Language is the most important part of culture and Punjabi Muslims should not lose it, denigrate it or make it secondary to Urdu, Persian or Arabic. This is what current foreign minister of Pakistan, Abdul Sattr did about a year ago, at a press conference in Washington. He wanted to be called Punjabi, he showed his love for the land but ridiculed Punjabi culture in favor of Central Asian culture. He is not alone. Punjabi Muslims, though majority of Pakistani bureaucracy since independence, have shown little love for Punjabi culture-sometime in the name of Pakistan, other times in the name of Islam. A good Punjabi should be a good human being too. He/ She must understand the needs of creating a modern civil society based on justice and equality. A proud Punjabi who imposes strictness on women, resistant to their education, racist towards other ethnic groups or minorities is certainly not a good Punjabi. Muslim Punjabis should take note of this and weed out the racist, sectarian and aggressively religious tendencies from their society. The future of Punjabis seems brighter than any other South Asian community. They are fast overcoming the pains they have endured as a result of partition and worked hard since then. They deserve it. The success of a large number of Punjabi owned businesses and recent explosion of Punjabi music is a clear indication in this direction. I would go even as far as saying that Punjabis will leave other communities significantly behind in the next 50 years and the implications of it on the political geography of South Asia are not realized well.


Name: saeed farani - June 16, 2001
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Respected Punjabio, I have just read the article "DohaN PunjabaaN di ik doojey naal jaan pachaan" written by Dr. Manzoor Ejaz. I sujjest that every Punjabi should read this article. This article is very comprehensive and remarkable. This article shows his clarity of thoughts, unparalleled and remarkable ability, high caliber and vast knowledge. I firmly believe that though Dr. Manzoor Ejaz stays in USA but he is keeping his sharp eyes on social, economic and cultural lives in East and West Punjab. Nodoubt he is performing a great job. We should follow him for getting the rights of Punjabi.


Name: Muhammad A. Shahab - June 15, 2001
E-mail: Chanu1@hotmail.com
Location: Albany, Ny     USA
Comments:   I have been reading Saeed Farani and Juttboots' comments. What they say is quite true. We have been brainwashed into believing that if we speak Punjabi or teach our children Punjabi, we will be considered 'paindu' or 'jatka'. It behoves us to shed this negative image of ourselves and our language Punjabi. It is true that we should learn other languages; however, it does not mean that we should forget our own. Let us start with ourselves and our families to appreciate and speak our Punjabi and I am sure there will be no stopping us from making Punjabi great and widespead. Saeed and Juttboot keep it going. Punjab and Punjabi Zindabad.


Name: JUTBoot - June 15, 2001
E-mail: kc01@labs.net
Location: Washington, DC     USA
Comments:   Hello Bibio, Behno tay Bharao, You can see that I couldn't stay away from this forum. Seems like our "Gul Baat" is on the treatment of Punjabi by West Punjabi elite. They kicked their mother tongue out and brought the UP/Bihari language in. With their efforts of 55 years, now a high school student may know more about "Meerza Sauda" of Lucknow than "Baba Farid" of Multan. Amazing huh!!! This fact is amply visible in the writing of Aziz-ul-din Ahmed "In Support of Punjabi Language" and the messages of Saeed Farani. I understand exactly how they feel. They are seeing the loss of culture, the language the customs, everything associated with. Isn't it sad to see that kids in West Punjab are turning out to be "English medium, Urdu speaking, Punjabis"?. What should we do about it? Simple. Start a letter writing campaign for this cause. We don't have to shout at the top of our lungs. I am asking for a peaceful movement that will bring the respect of Punjabi language back to where it belongs. The first step is to ask for a change in our attitude towards Pakistani languages, i.e. Punjabi, Sindhi, Pushto, Baluchi, Seriaki, Hindko and off course Urdu. Instead of saying Urdu is bad, we ought to accept it along other languages. Ask for changing school text books from "Urdu Only" to a "text book for Pakistani Languages". Just say that we want to add Hir and Sassi Punnu or other epic stories in the present day Urdu books. This will allow students to learn classic Punjabi and be proud of their mother tongue. Punjab Zindabad.


Name: JutBoot - June 15, 2001
E-mail: kc01@labs.net
Location: Washington, DC     USA
Comments:   Hi Guys. A big HELLO from your own Paindoo and JutBoot. You guys are great. Good to see nice discussions about Punjabis and Punjabiat. Let me congratulate you for your achievements in Indo-Pak and abroad. Just keep this forum going, just like a warm Chilam and Hukkah during a cold wintry evening. Eat Gur and enjoy Julabies. Or you can follow my high school teacher who so eloquently said "Kha Double Roti and Khushi say Phool Ja". I'll back on the topic of Punjabi language. Till then Khuda Hafiz and Sat Sari Akal. Punjab Zindabad


Name: DullaBhatti - June 15, 2001
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   I tend to agree with Saeed Farani that the biggest danger Punjabi language have is not from non-Punjabis but from our own people who because of their political needs,economic needs or need to fit in and not be called paindoos, hate their own mother language and in many cases they even deny themselves being Punjabis. I met this guy from Pakistan who I think was(is) Punjabi but when I asked are you Punjabi...instead of answering my question he said "my parents are from Gujranwala"(yeah right so you are a blonde from Sweden). So I thought may be he is non-Punjabi living there for a while but in subsequent conversation during our second meeting he mentioned how he can't speak Punjabi well but it is not his fault. He told me his parents who were some kind of Govt employees living in Lahore(where this guy grew up) did not let this person speak or learn Punjabi. To this day I can't believe that a person of Gujranwala origin born and grown up in Lahore can't speak Punjabi beyong few words. If a Mexican kid born and grown up in LA does not know English we will send him to special school for disabled children but it is only in Lahore that these guys can be actually be proud of not knowing the language of the place and their ancestors. Jinnah created Pakistan...East and West because he thought Muslims regardless of their heritage belong in the same pool meaning religion is the strong enough glue to keep them One...but 6 months later in the summer of 1948 he goes to Bengal and tell them we need a new glue of language...Urdu to forge the country. Of course Bengalis were smarter than us dhaggas and they showed him angooTha while we are still pissing in our pants ....haye je asin punjabi bol lai pata nai ki ho jaoga.. Nothing is going to happen. Pakistan is a reality and it is here to stay....Indians are not that stupid to take these Mullahs back....in fact India in next couple of decades will raise the new wall(waaRh,security setup, high-tech surveillence etc) of Berlin on the border so that Pakistan never can be one with India. So dear Pakistani Punjabis...shedd all your fears and inferiority complexes and be what you are...Punjabis.


Name: Waseem Ashraf - June 15, 2001
E-mail: hajiwaseem@hotmail.com
My URL: http://hajiwaseem.net
Location: Islamabad, Federal     Pakistan
Comments:   I wish we could develop a web site on Punjabi as a one stop source of Punjabi. Anyone out there.........


Name: saeedfarani - June 15, 2001
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Prem Sing Kahlon Jee, I recieved your e. Thank you very much for writing me and telling me about your experiences. As you wrote that Pujabies (Hindu, Sikh or Muslim) when sit together in America they feel easy and no distance. I agree with you that ordinary Punjabies feel pleasure when they meet each others. I was not talking about common Punjabies. Let me explain my views again. My concern was only about those Punjabi writers who live in Pakistani Punjab and they hate their language. They write in Urdu ( which is not a crime) but they negate Punjabi. They raise voices for the promotion of Urdu (which is not their mother tongue) where as they become silent (goongey) when we talk about the rights of Punjabi. Even they write against Punjabi language that if someone tried to promote Punjabi this country will break into many pieces so Urdu is the Symbol of unity. This way they blackmail innocent Punjabies. They cannot blackmail Pathans or Sindhis who love their mother tongues. They speak proudly thier languages with their kids but the case with Muslim Punjabies is very different. They hate their mother language. So I was negating their this character. Prem Sing jee, I did not write with your name the word "Dear" because your name is prem.


Name: saeed farani - June 14, 2001
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Punjabi Qaido, That is my todays topic. Punjabi Qaido. If you have studied the great Heer of Waris Shah, then you will find one character QAIDO who was the enemy of love /ISHQ or happiness or nature.(Here I don't agree with Prof. Sharif Kunjahi of Gujrat who says that the Qaido was right because he wanted to defend the honour (HEER) of Punjab. So he calls him "iztaaN da raakha" Presently, I don't want to go in this discussion that why Sharif Kunjahi appraised the character of Qaido. He is our great poet and lover of Punjabi. So I love him too. Here I want to discuss only about those QAIDOs (enemies of HEER -Punjabi language) who are by birth Punjabies but they always favour Urdu. To learn Urdu or Hindi or Persian or German is not a bad thing. I appreciate that because I can also speak a few languages. (I am sorry for praising myself here. Please forgive me. ) Even to write in Urdu or in any other language is also not a bad thing but you will never find any national on the globe either he is Pushto speaking or Urdu speaking or anyone else who writes against his language except Punjabies (specially Punjabi Muslims). I can quote here many names who wrote in favour of Urdu and they never wrote even one word in favour of their mother language. Let me make it clear for you that according to my study writing in favour of Urdu is actually writing againt Punjabi. These writers and comperes or drama writers when visit to foreign countries like USA, Canada, UK or other European countries they show that they also love Punjabi. That all is hipocratic and just to get their advantages from the innocent Punjabies specially from Sikhs who in love for Punjabi could do anything for them. For reference here just I want to quote a few names: See any Urdu drama written by any punjabi writer he will always give honourable charater to that actor who speaks very good Urdu where as a character full of hatredness is always given to that actor who, in the drama, speaks Urdu in Punjabi dialect or in Punjabi mix Urdu. They do this job intentionaly so that people of Punjab start hating their mother tongue and start loving Urdu. Today, the kids and women are very much convinced that the only civilized language of Pakistan is Urdu whereas Punjabi is the language of Dhaghas, Ujadds, Dangars. PTV is running a media war in favour of Urdu and against Punjabi. And I feel pity that I am living in that country where my kids are forced to leave their mother language. You see any Punjabi middle class or lower middle class's house they don't speak with their kids in Punjabi. They are forced to do so. They can't resist againt the media, government policies, educational institutions etc. Just go through one Urdu newspaper JANG of 9th June, 2001. There is a columnist Javaid Chodhary who writes column under the heading of ZERO POINT. His topic was GOONGI ZUBAAN. This guy is from Kharian and his mother tongue is Punjabi. In day to day life he often speaks Punjabi too. In his column he is crying like baby and giving arguments that why in Pakistan Urdu language is not given a status of real national language. He has much pain (it seems everywhere) and he writes emotionally that Urdu should be given status of National Language as Chinese or Japanese have status in their countries. He does not understand one thing that these languages (Chinese, Japanese) belong to the countries whereas Urdu language does not belong to any part of this country, probably now to some pockets of Karachi. Secondly, Chinese is very rich language and has a history of over three thousand years. He wrote this column in favour of Urdu and requested to all powerful corners to do something immediately to save Urdu. There are many examples of such foolishness/crookedness/meanness done by many Punjabies like Mumtaz Mufti, Qudratullah Shahab, Altaf Gohar, Ashfaq Ahmed, Ataul Haq Qasmi, Ahmad Nadeem Qasmi, Syed Asghar Nadeem Syed, Majid Nizami etc., that they cry for Urdu and they never thought about their mother tongue. Even Faiz Ahamd Faiz, who was pure Punjabi, thought in his old age to write some poems in Punjabi. But he missed the train. It is a big mishap with all of these and many of like them that their intellect has gone into the Gutter of Urdu. Thats way they have chained us so badly that today in every middle and lower middle class punjabi's house kids speak Urdu and they hate Punjabi that is what I have been cry for two decades and many my elders like Najam Hussain Syed, Shafqat Tanveer Mirza, Raja Rasalu and many others have been crying for the rights of Punjabi since the birth of this country. But our voice is very weak and we are always facing QAIDOs of our dharti who always are ready to sting this land and with their loaded fangs. Punjabies should never respect these Dallas.


Name: Khawaja Kamran Sadiq - June 13, 2001
E-mail: kamran_khawaja@hotmail.com
Location: Toronto, ON     CANADA
Comments:   Hello jee. Congrats on a very 'vad' website. The information regarding punjabi poetry/literature is excellant. Might anyone know where/how I might acquire books in shahmukhi, regarding the said poetry/literature? Hope to partake in discussions. Khodahafez-o-rab ruk.


Name: Jagjit Sandhu - June 13, 2001
E-mail: jagjitsandhu@yahoo.com
Comments:   I agree with Ejaz sahib's suggestion. Starting Punjabi clubs like Punjabi Book Club, Punjabi Music Club, Punjabi Reader's Club etc is a great idea but we do need to discuss these things in the open and in more detail before any action can be taken. Discussion like this one are the starting point...may be some more energetic individuals will read this discussion and take a step and establish such a club.


Name: Muhammad Ashraf Shahab - June 12, 2001
E-mail: chanu1@hotmail.com
Location: Albany, NY     USA
Comments:   Congratulations to the organizers & designers of this site. It is truly a great site for all Punjabis from both East and West Punjab. The music selection is awesome. Please keep adding to it - especially true folk songs and singers.


Name: Ramandip Singh - June 12, 2001
E-mail: rtoor@yahoo.com
Location: Philadelphia, PA     USA
Comments:   I believe Dr. Ejaz has a great idea. Mere discussion is not enough. I believe that this sort of music is unlikely to survive beyond the current generation.....if that. Would love to contribute in whatever way I can.


Name: Prem Singh Kahlon - June 12, 2001
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Location: Nashville , Tn     USA
Comments:   I think all of us should respond to Dr. Ejaz,s challenge and do something to encourage Panjabi artists to record panjabi music. Let us say that all of those who can put some seed money to raise funds for this purpose and should send to APNA or any other organization formed for this purpose. Those of you living in big cities form clubs or whatever it takes to generate interest in buying tapes/cds.I for one will be willing to contribute little bit say a thousand dollars and then buy wharever I can from the available cds etc.If enough people give little every year and then buy music also, this task will not be too difficult.I listen to this site all day in my office for free and paying some money to promote this kind of undertaking will be just fair.Please respond to Ejaz Sahib's call and let him know that you really care for your mother tongue.Best wishes


Name: Manzur Ejaz - June 11, 2001
E-mail: manzurejaz@yahoo.com
Location: Washington DC, DC     USA
Comments:   RE: Sharif Idu not only Sharif Idu, most Punjabi musicians are neglected and spending their lives in dire condition. Lack of appreciation of quality music in entire Punjab--East and West--has driven budding stars like Hans Raj Hans to popular dhool dhmakka (its value notwithstanding). Therefore, I suggesst all Punjabis abroad should make a music club and commit that they will buy 1000-5000 thousand copies of every new CD or tape released by quality musicians. For that, elaborate list of subsribers should be made. If this happens, APNA can arrange production of quality recording via credible Punjabi music producers in the sub-continent. Take some action: mere whining will not do.


Name: Bobby singh Bhuller - June 11, 2001
E-mail: jeparis2@hotmail.com
Location: Toronto, ontario     Canada
Comments:   Forget about the rest, because this is the coooooooolest web ever made by our people. lakh-lakh shuker reba meria, ena nu thandherusti de.


Name: Ramandip Singh - June 10, 2001
E-mail: rtoor@yahoo.com
Location: Philadelphia, PA     USA
Comments:   I also love the music of Sharif Idu. Unfortunately, I have never been able to find any other music by him. The two songs on the apnaorg site come from folk music of punjab series compiled by india today (i think). Tragically, the state of true folk music is such that artists like Sharif Idu can no longer support themselves based on their art alone and have to subsidise their livelihood with manual labor. I read this in a book entitled "Folk Music and musical instruments of Punjab" by Alka Pande.


Name: Jagjit Sandhu - June 09, 2001
E-mail: jagjitsandhu@yahoo.com
Comments:   About Punjabi Music on the Web site: Almost everyone has CDs and Tapes of more popular(not necessarily the best) singers but many less popular singers who have sung the best of Punjabi poetry should be on your target list to post on the web site first. I particularly liked Sharif Idu,Pathane Khan, Puran Chand, Puran Shahkoti, Shahida Perveen etc. Post more of Sharif Idu,Wadali and Shakoti groups. I promise you I will buy their CDs or cassettes as soon as I see one:-)...certainly no free loading. no ghareeb maar:-) Also post some Jagjit Zirvi and Sarbjit......oh and One person I have not heard her voice in ages....Gurmit Bawa from Jalandhar. She had sung some Punjabi folk songs very well and we used to listen to her from Jalandhar radio as kids.


Name: Jagjit Sandhu - June 05, 2001
E-mail: jagjitsandhu@yahoo.com
Comments:   Please add an interactive discussion forum like the one used by many other discussion sites. Here is a good start to get one http://www.infopop.com/


Name: Sanjeev Sharma - June 04, 2001
E-mail: sanjeev.sharma@cpcug.org
Location: Fairfax, VA     USA
Comments:   Folks, I am just a little overwhelmed to read the responses on this discussion forum. My family is entirely from the Pakistani Punjab and NWFP. Growing up in India, I was always intrigued by the frequent family conversations about places like Jhelum, Attock, Gujranwala, Hafizabad, Sialkot, Rawalpindi, Jamrud, Bannu and of course Lahore. Interacting withn people from the Pakistani Punjab for the past thirteen years in the USA, Canada and Europe has convinced me that we are one people in our outlook, language and customs. All this religious/ideological nonsense is just hogwash to keep people separate and our land divided on one pretext or another. The essential Punjabi character is secular and we need to strive to preserve it as such. Long Live Punjab! Kudos to the organizers for creating and maintaining this excellent site!


Name: Jagjit Sandhu - May 29, 2001
E-mail: jagjitsandhu@yahoo.com
Location: San Jose, CA     USA
Comments:   I just read portions of Asif Shahkar and Najm Hussain's poetry and listened to Puran Chand-Piyare Lal. Thank you so much. This web site is making its place on the net and in our hearts every day.


Name: Vikas Arneja - May 29, 2001
E-mail: vikas_arneja@rediffmail.com
Location: New Delhi, D     India
Comments:   Dear Sir, Please send two fonts via E-Mail Named AnmolHindi & AmrHindi fonts in zip format. My e-Mail's are : vikas_arneja@rediffmail.com vikidada2000@yhahoo.com Thanking you Yours truly Vikas


Name: Vikas Arnrja - May 29, 2001
E-mail: vikas_arneja@rediffmail.com
Location: New Delhi, D     India
Comments:   Dear Sir, Please send two fonts via E-Mail Named AnmolHindi & AmrHindi fonts in zip format. My e-Mail's are : vikas_arneja@rediffmail.com vikidada2000@yhahoo.com Thanking you Yours truly Vikas


Name: saeed farani - May 28, 2001
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Punjabi Piyareo, Tuhanoo meyN dil di gehrayaaN toN salam/sat sri akal/Namaste akhda haaN. I wish we could design such a common roman script for Punjabi which could be understood by all Punjabies (Hindu, Sikhs, Muslims or Christians). Unfortunately, religions have divided us so badly that we don't want to learn each others' script. Each religion of the world gave one very common message, "Love God but love humanity first." Todays' religion teach every thing but miss very basic thing ie loving humanity. Due to negative role of preachers of religions today all the humanity is divided into various colours. I would love to quote my one open thought poem: Harey rang di puja karan waleo TuhanooN peraaN heyth midhi ghah disdi naeeN. (o, worshipers of green colour, don't you see the crushed grass under your feet) Green colour is the holy colour for the muslims. They send salaams to the green coloured tomb of Holy Prophet. They live in Punjab but their brains stay in Makkah and Madina. Whereas, instead they think about that symbolic things, they should try to beautify their heart through the teachings of Islam which does not say them to hate their language and culture. Even there are many verses in Quran that talk to the people in their mohter tongues. Thats why the divine revelation on the holy prophet was in Arabic language ( his mother language). You see the importance of the mother language in Islam. I don't understand the concept of teaching mother language has not been understood by our governments since 1947. They tried to impose on us Urdu all the time. They preach that only Urdu is the islamic language whereas other than Urdu all the languages of Sub-continent are languages of Kafirs. What a nonsense thinking (NEECH SOCH) they had. They blackmailed us in the name of Islam and won their vested interests. Now we are paying the heavy price of their conspiracies against the people of this country. On the name of religion they butchered us into many peices and served the well preestimated cause of big power. (Enough for this time, I will write again very soon.)


Name: Mohammad Hami - May 27, 2001
E-mail: hami193@aol.com
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   MeiN jadoN Punjabi bolda haaN Injlagda hai Meri maaN minuN godi lai ke Apna dudh pilaa rahi hai


Name: Vikram Singh sikand - May 26, 2001
E-mail: viksikand@hotmail.com
Location: New York, NY     USA
Comments:   Makes me very happy to see that there is a group consisting of both Pakistani and Hindustani Punjabis working towards elevation of a glorious language. Punjabi has been much maligned by the politicians of both Pakistan and India. It is time to restore her to her original pristine state. Let us also not forget that in addition to three variant scripts (Gurmukhi, Shahmukhi, Devnagri), that there are multiple dialects ie Multani, Siraiki, Lahnda, Lahori, Pahari etc. Keep up the great work in this very worthy cause.


Name: Prem S. Bodagala - May 25, 2001
E-mail: veerbhagat@hotmail.com
My URL:
Location: Avenel, NJ     USA
Comments:   Hi folks, nice site...I'm not a Punjabi, but have keen interest in the Punjabi language...I was wondering if the Guru Granth Sahib has been translated into any South Indian/Dravidian languages... if anybody has info on this matter, would they please contact me at the address providen...thanx and all the best


Name: zak - May 25, 2001
E-mail: zakmunir@hotmail.com
Location: Lahore, NY     USA
Comments:   i really impressed to read your views about PUNJABI. thatsy i m adding myself in this interesting PUNJABI BOX. punjabi sada sub kuch payain koi mannay payain na mannay.


Name: Randip Singh - May 19, 2001
E-mail: rsbahra@supanet.com
Location: Birmingham,      Uk
Comments:   To Long.... We finally have a site whicch explores Punjabi Culture......forget the rest......BUT this is something very interesting!!!!!!!


Name: Gurmit Kaur - May 18, 2001
E-mail: gurmitkaur@hotmail.com
Location: Toronto, Ontario     Canada
Comments:   I just wrote my comments but there is mistake "People do not like to speak Punjabi,Hindi or English" it should be that"people donot like to speak but like to spek Hindi Or English" Sorry about that. I am not a writer. Gurmit


Name: Gurmit kaur - May 18, 2001
E-mail: gurmitkaur@hotmail.com
Location: Toronto, Ont     Canada
Comments:   Saeed Sahib! It is very nice to read your views. It reminds me that when I go to my east Punjab it is the same thing happening and people do not like to speak Punjabi, Hindi or English. It feels so great that people like you will not let "Punjabi Zuban die" Your writing is very real.Waiting for your writing "Punjabi Zuban Naeen Marey Gi." Long Live Punjabi Zuban" Gurmit


Name: ChannMahi - May 17, 2001
E-mail: Chann14@home.com
Comments:   Saeed sahib. likho janaab likho. Your life story seems really interesting. We are waiting for more. Thanks


Name: saeed ahmad - May 17, 2001
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   I am very pleased to see this great Punjabi site. I published more than 2000 pamphlets to propagate this side and distributing them to all my clients at my book shop in Rawalpindi. Why I am very pleased to see such a great job done by Dr. Manzur Ejaz and Safir Rammah and many other fellows. There is a long history. I will try to write in a few times. First: I am 44 years old. I was born in Narowal (Near Sialkot) in 1957. I am proud Punjabi since the day I got awareness. And I profoundly observed what is happening with my mother language in Pakistani Punjab. In 1987, I was finally burst out and wrote a book "Punjabi Zuban Naeen Marey Gi". Actually, I came back from my travel to Europe. It was all by buses or trains or on foot. After watching various countries,people, cultures, languages of the world, I found one thing very common everywhere that everyone speaks his own mother language proudly or naturally except us, "Pakistani Punjabies." On the way back to Jhelum from Queta, I just dropped for a few hours in Lahore at my elder sister's house. She was not at home. I asked my niece in Punjabi to bring one glass of water quickly.She could not understand my and of course her mother language and asked me in Urdu, "What sort of water?" Meantime, my sister came and she was pleased to see me. I put my first question that your daughter cannot even understand Punjabi. You are Punjabi and your husband is Punjabi. If you don't speak Punjabi with the kids then this language would die one day. The response of my sister was so horrible that I stood immediatly and came to my city Jhelum, and not at my home to see my parents and family after five month journey but to the Printing Press. My sister said me that if Punjabi language dies then let it die. What you have to do with it. All the Punjabi families are speaking Urdu with their kids. You want to spoil my kids that they speak this language and they feel third class citizen of this country. Their classfellows will hate them." I was stunned to hear from the mouth of a Panjaban that let this language to die." I said to her,"Punjabi will not die." And that was the first slogan which I got printed in the form of poster. And one another poster "Jaag Punjabi Jaag." At mid night the posters were ready and then I started to paste them on the walls at the main spots in the various cities. I started from Jhelum, then Gujrat, Gujaranwala, and finally next day morning in Lahore. I had no fear but just one sentence of my sister that "Let it die" and my will was that I will not let it die. I had no fear. It was my land and my language. I finished my job madly. I came back to Jhelum and the same night I started to write the book,"Punjabi Zuban Naeen Marey Gi." I added with my name the title "Kammi". This is enough for this time. If you feel that it is of some use to our Punajbi movement then I will continue. All the best wishes for those who are struggling for this the most supressed language on the globe. Yours sincerely, saeed farani@hotmail.com


Name: Tanveer Azmat - May 14, 2001
E-mail: t_azmat@yahoo.com
Location: Hinsdale, IL     USA
Comments:   I discovered this page today and want to express my gratitute to the organizers. This has been long over due. Punjabi in the family of human languages needs its proper regard and recognition. Tanveer.


Name: Gurmit Kaur - May 09, 2001
E-mail: gurmitkaur @hotmail.com
Location: Toronto, Ontario     Canada
Comments:   I think this ia wonderful page. My congrations to Apna organasers and specially to Dr. Menzur Ejaz. I think the Romanized Punjabiwill not encourage us ansd our younger generations to learn Gurmukhi or Shahmukhi script. We have to think about keep ourselves as Punjabis who can read and write in our language keep our music our literature ,read write and think as Punjabis. I think Apana is doing great work writing our literature into both sripts. This encouraging people to learn Gurmukhi or Shamukhi or both scripts.I now repent that I forgot Shahmukhi script. I am thinking to learn that again. This is creating the unity of the Punjabis all over the world never mind where we are specially east and west Punjab. We must be proud of as Punjabi. I thank Apna that has created this page to share our views where ever we are. My best wishes and good luck.


Name: Mohamad Khan - May 08, 2001
E-mail: mohamadkhan@hotmail.com
My URL:
Location: Toronto, ON     Canada
Comments:   Speaking as a member of the "next generation which is being brought up overseas (and may not be familiar with Arabic or Gormukhi script)," I hope that the webmaster will *not* present anything in Romanized Punjabi, but stick to Shahmukhi and Gurumukhi. Non-resident South Asian members of the second generation should learn the Punjabi script or scripts rather than being spoon-fed Latin characters. I was brought up speaking, reading and writing only English, but I began teaching myself the Urdu script when I was fifteen, and have recently learned Gurmukhi, which is remarkably easy. I'm still in the intermediate stages of learning my maan boli, but making good progress. So, don't underestimate the second generation.


Name: Karanjit singh Bajwa - May 07, 2001
E-mail: Boringgem@aol.com
Location: Sacramento, ca     USA
Comments:   Sat shri Akal, Beautiful site! I am 17/m/calif. I am really interested in learning about punjabi culture/history. I listen to mirza/sahiba song often. I try to understand true love i guess. I am soo happy and glad that i came here. I never knew there was a Heer Ware Shah, I read first few pages and I like it! I love it!. I would really love to read other scripts in punjabi, please. If this site sells any old books or have any resources which connect to punjabi history( example; heer, mirza, baba fareed) please, please e-mail me, I am very interested. My e-mail is boringgem@aol.com or budaphakir@khalsa.com love to all bajwa


Name: Dr Mohammad Farooque - May 04, 2001
E-mail: sutlage@hotmail.com
Location: Sunrise, FL     USA
Comments:   Very good effort. I have only one suggetion, after reading some of the comments. It seems that Arabic/persian script is not readable by people from Indian Punjab. Same will be the problem for Pakistani Punjab people if the text is in Gormukhi. Therefore I suggest to use both these scripts. Furhtermore it will be good idea to present this work in "Latin script". Like in Army they have Roman Urdu which is written in Latin script. In that case our next generation which is being brought up overseas (and may not be familiar with Arabic or Gormukhi script) will be able to read and enjoy the literatutre.


Name: Mian Amjad Waheed - May 03, 2001
E-mail: waheed.2@osu.edu
Location: Columbus, OH     USA
Comments:   I am from Lahore (nai reesa sher Lahore diyan), Punjab (Asli Lahori from Lohari Gate, Anarkali), Punjabi Aryani and very proud of my culture, my city, and my country Sohna Pakistan. This is my first visit to this site and I need to explore more before I post my comments. Salaam to all Punjabis.


Name: Mian Amjad Waheed - May 03, 2001
E-mail: waheed.2@osu.edu
Location: Columbus, OH     USA
Comments:   I am from Lahore (nai reesa sher Lahore diyan), Punjab (Asli Lahori from Lohari Gate, Anarkali), Punjabi Aryani and very proud of my culture, my city, and my country Sohna Pakistan. This is my first visit to this site and I need to explore more before I post my comments. Salaam to all Punjabis.


Name: Mandeep S sandhu - May 02, 2001
E-mail: waris12@yahoo.com
My URL:
Location: santa rosa, ca     USA
Comments:   Great to see a web side deicated to APNA. When I was in NJ I used to attend APNA metings occasionally. I was wondering if a chapter of APNA could be set up on in California. Dr Manzur referred to folk songs from East Punjab. Music Today, I think, have brought out some cassttes of punjabi folk songs sung by people like the Wadali brothers. I might have one casstte lying somewhere.


Name: Safir Rammah - April 30, 2001
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, Va     USA
Comments:   A number of friends have correctly suggested that we should add material in Gurmukhi on APNA Web Page. Let me assure that we at APNA are committed to do exactly that. As a matter of fact, the purpose of this web page will not be accomplished until the material is provided both in Shahmukhi and Gurmukhi scripts. Our first project on these lines was the transliteration of best Punjabi Literature from one script to the other. We have so far transilterated and published more than two dozen books. We believe that a multi-script web page is another way to enhance communication and dialogue among all Punjabis across borders, religious believes and geographical locations. We will soon complete the publishing of essetial Classical Poetry in Shahmukhi (after completing the poetry of Kwaja Farid, which is under way and later of Mian Mohammad). We then plan to start publishing poetry and other material in Gurmukhi on APNA home page. I will, of course, greatly appreciate any help in publishing the Gurmukhi material. Regards, Safir Rammah


Name: Ramandip Singh Toor, MD - April 30, 2001
E-mail: rtoor@yahoo.com
Location: Philadelphia, PA     USA
Comments:   It warms my heart to read the wonderful comments from punjabis of all faiths. What an excellent website this is? My heartiest congratulations to those who initiated this endeavor. It is truly a labor of love. I, however, wish that some of the poetry was available in Gurmukhi. I also wish that the pakistani punjabi music was more readily available somehow. Some of my punjabi brothers indicated an interest in acquiring music from east punjabi. I think the songs of most of the well-known artists are easily available through the internet. There are a number of websites that sell indian CDs. Long live Punjab.


Name: Gian Sharma - April 29, 2001
E-mail: gsharma@lsil.com
Location: santa Clara, ca     USA
Comments:   It is wonderful to see such a high level of intellectual property being put out for display amongst modern audience. It is a great cause and I will salute the foreruuners. Could you please make it available in Punjabi and Hindi Script as well. Urdu is not something we can recognize. If you promote Punjabi then please make it available in Punjabi and Hindi. Thanks. Gian Sharma


Name: J B Sameer - April 29, 2001
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Location: New York, NY     USA
Comments:   Delighted to see another great website for the promotion of Punjabi culture. I hope to see this site becoming popular. The addition of gurmukhi script is a must for attracting Sikhs who are much more ardent in the promotion of all things related to Punjab and Punjabis. A large number of us, Pakistani Punjabis, give only luke warm support to Punjabi identity and therefore less informed and knowledgeable about Punjab. I also wish never to see intra-Punjabi bashing here as it is common on various other sites. Actually it takes very little effort, by prioritizing the interests and love for Punjab, to bring Punjabis from all geographical/ political/ social/ religious backgrounds on the same platform. The diaspora Punjabis is one very important link to this end. They are doing a remarkable job of promoting the Punjabi brotherhood and succeeding in bridging the gap left behind by the most unfortunate side-effects of partition. The diaspora is in an excellent position to influence even the national policies of Pakistan and India with respect to Punjabis. All Punjabis have to do is to begin with: 1) Love Punjab and Punjabi culture, 2) Make a solemn pledge not to hate other Punjabis for the reason of personal preferences related to certain aspects of history. I agree with Dr. Mazur Ejaz about education and industrialization a must for promoting progress in Punjab and the village culture acting as a drag due to a feeling of satisfaction with status quo. However, in my humble opinion, any disappearance of village culture will make us more vulnerable to the fundamentalists' extremes. No matter how much I dislike feudalism and village backwardness, I will prefer it over talibanization of Punjab. I wonder if anybody will agree with me about reemergence of Punjab taking place anyway, irrepective of national policies of both countries. The hard working people, fertile land, successful diaspora Punjabis, internet, media and music all contributing to this phenomenon. Punjabis are moving ahead faster than anyother sub-continent ethnic groups. If not derailed by unfortunate inter-religious rivalries, they will leave others far behind in the next 50 years. That is good for Punjab, Punjabis, India and Pakistan. Punjabis were eclipsed from Vedic time until the short lived Punjabi darbar of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. They made tremendous strides during British Raj and in a strange way, both partition and Khalistan movement have acted as catalysts that has put them on a relatively faster track to success. Am I wrong? Punjabi culture is one heck of an area to bring all Punjabis on the same platform, for brotherhood, peace, progress and prosperity. I wish best of luck to APNA in this endeavor and thank them for a positive objective that is very dear and near to our hearts.


Name: Jagjit Sandhu - April 21, 2001
E-mail: jagjitsandhu@yahoo.com
Location: San Jose, CA     USA
Comments:   Congratulations to all who help build this web site. I am really enjoying reading Pakistani Punjabi poets in shahmukhi(that I started learning only a year and half ago). I am reading poems of Daman, Ashfaque Ahmed and Amhed Rahi first time in my life.I am really optimistic and emotionally moved by the sight of interaction going on between Punjabis of both Punjabs on and off the internet. For the first time in our lives(people who were born in 60s and 70s) we are discovering our heritage accross the border. Daman, Ahmed Rahi, Ashfaque, Iliyas Ghumman, Muneer Niazi, Afzal Tauseef and numerous others are as much ours as of Punjabis of Pakistan. and how could we deprive Rawalpindians of the pride of their son Kartar Singh Duggal.I was reading about the mischeiveous propaganda and creation of controversies about the Punjabi Conference held in Lahore last week. It should be clear to all, Indians and Pakistani brothers that this interaction of Punjabis, Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus is not to harm either country but to strengthen the cultural ties and to share our collective heritage to promote peace and prosperity among the two countries. No matter how unfortunate, the partition of 1947, it is political irreversible and we must respect the existance and laws of both countries. All we ask is to keep the cultural and linguistic link that we had for many millenia.We also must respect the right of other groups of both Pakistan and India to read, love and enjoy their own mother languages. We must understand that a Sindhi or a Urdu speaker loves his language as much as we do ours. It is not about which language is superior or which group is politically strong and oppresseive. If Punjabi elite is oppressive and deals discriminately with other groups in Pakistan we must condemn this behaviour. We must take a higher moral ground in this battle for our language and culture. We must first pick our own bad apples.I believe that our case for the perservation and promotion of Punjabi language in Punjabi speaking areas of India and Pakistan is a genuine one and we don't need to abuse, oppress or discriminate against anyone to achieve this goal.Love to all Punjabis and good wishes for India and Pakistan, the two countries of my ancestors.


Name: Bobby Bhathal - April 21, 2001
E-mail: bobbybhtahal@hotmail.com
My URL:
Location: Surrey, BC     Canada
Comments:   I am BOBBY BHATHAL from Canada (Home still MY SWEET PUNJAB, INDIA).It's VERY GREAT IDEA TO HAVE THE NICE WEBSITE and thnakx who ever did the great efforts. I am feeeling very happy and proud of this website. I congratulate all, who shown there love for the language of great five rivers."Long live punj dariawan de Dharti Of Punjab" beyond any political limit. KEEP IT UP. It is a very laudable effort. Thank you for your efforts. I was born at Wazirabad and still yearn to go back there. I grew up playing on the banks of Chenab and Palkhu.


Name: Veeraan Karrer - April 20, 2001
E-mail: veeraan@hotmail.com
Location: Melbourne, Vic     Australia
Comments:   Hi,The work you people have done is excellent but I think you should put a gurmukhi version of all the poetry.This way people like me who dont understand shahmukhi will benefit.wishing you good luckVeeraan


Name: Abulfazal Mahmud - April 17, 2001
E-mail: afmahmud@hotmail.com
Location: Freeland, MD     USA
Comments:   I am most grateful to the authorship of this Site.I am from Pakistan. I am very fond of music particularly of Jalandher and Ludhiana dialects. Generally speaking, I do not care much for film lyrics and am interested in raw village fare. Can anyone enlighten me on the sources for procuring some such material? I have already some audio cassettes by Narinder Biba, am looking for some by Muhammad Siddique/Ranjit Kur duo and others (none excluded).


Name: Dr. Manzur Ejaz - April 13, 2001
E-mail: mejaz@CapAccess.org
My URL: http://apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, VA     USA
Comments:   Dear friends, I have been searching for classical and folk music from East Punjab. One can't find anything other than Kaur sisters, Asa Singh Masatna, Yumla Jat, Gurdas Maan, etc. I have not been able to get even Hans Raj Hans (the one who sings Sufi kalam). I have been to East Punjab asking everyone many times and here in the US too. I know there are classical singers in E.Punjab like brothers from Wadali. Can you please tell me why classical and semi-classic folk is so scarce. Is there any shop or distributor anywhere in India who can help. Please respond ASAP.


Name: prem singh kahlon - April 03, 2001
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Location: nashville , tn     USA
Comments:   Best wishes to all sons and daughters of Punjab and cogratulations to those who made this dialog possible. My comments regarding Ejaz Sahib's observation regarding need for industrialization of Punjab are;1) I fully agree for the need of industry and that is the only way Punjabi will be able to share the prosperity associated with industrial revolution that came long ago.2) I have a slightly differet prospective as to the lack of industry atleast in East Punjab. It was decided by the Central Govt. soon after partition that Punjab Is a border state and should not be industrialiazed. A sorry excuse in my opinion( I hope I donot offend any one for saying so).Although there is some concern about large scale "Poobias" settling in Punjab but Punjabees have accepted them and they are badly needed. Without this labor Punjab farming will come to a complete halt.I will welcome comments from any one regarding this observation.


Name: Yuktanand Singh MD - April 02, 2001
E-mail: yasingh@concentric.net
Location: Saline, Mi     USA
Comments:   This is a commendable effort from brother Manzur. I would like to see a united Punjab in the near future. Every such effort is a step in that direction.


Name: Ranbir Bhai - April 01, 2001
E-mail:
Comments:   I think that Punjabi's are reaching academic successes and need to develop higher level of industries which required educated and business minded individuals who are better entrepreneurs and mangers. This type of growth and work force will leave room for out of state work force to manage agrarian cultures and industry, thus allowing both economies to grow and compliment economically yet remain separate from each other industry wise.


Name: Mohammad Masood - April 01, 2001
E-mail: Masoodkhan@altavista.com
Location: Huston, TX     USA
Comments:   My Dear Punjabis: Its time that all Punjabis should unite and try to heal the wounds of Partition, which has separated Punjabis. I am a proud Punjabi and first and foremost a Punjabi and consider all Punjabis irrespective of their religions as my brothers and sisters. Inshallah, one day all Punjabis would be together and there would be no borders in Punjab. Long Live Punjabis. Mohammad Masood, Houston, Texas, USA


Name: Irfan murtaza Virk - April 01, 2001
E-mail: imvirk@hotmail.com
My URL: http://ladhewalavirkan.8k.com
Location: Dubai,      UAE
Comments:   I am feeeling very happy and proud to see the work on htis website.I congratulate all my Pujabi brothers on launching such a fabulous Pujabi website. I am Virk from Pakistan and I would like contact any Virk from India to exchange views about punjab and punjabi culture. "Long live the Dharti Of Punjab."


Name: Joginder Singh Ahluwalia - March 31, 2001
E-mail: joginder@prodigy.net
Location: Richmond, CA     USA
Comments:   It is a very laudable effort. Thank you for your efforts. I was born at Wazirabad and still yearn to go back there. I grew up playing on the banks of Chenab and Palkhu.


Name: Manzur Ejaz - March 30, 2001
E-mail: mejaz@CapAcess.org
Location: Fairfax, VA     USA
Comments:   After reading and traveling in both parts of Punjab, I have come to the conclusion that Punjabis can only gain civilizational ground through massive industrialization. Entrapped into agrarian economy, both Punjabs are relegated to be rural backward areas of commercially advancing world. Like the villages adopt the city culture (not other way around) the agrarian areas follow urbanized commercial settings. It is an involved argument but has validity. Pakistani Punjab, with its specific political problems, faces hurdles of a different type. On the other hand, some East Punjabis are apprehensive of industrialization because of fear of out-of-state work force. What do you think about this situation in both Punjabs? Manzur Ejaz


Name: Dr Preetam Singh, Q.C. - March 27, 2001
E-mail: psnahal@total.net
My URL: http://www.total.net
Location: Beaconsfield, PQ     Canada
Comments:   I left India when I was 5 years old and I have never lived there. Among other countries of the World, I have occasionally visited India and Pakistan. I learnt Urdu from my father when I was a teenager. Although a little slow, I have been able to enjoy reading Waras Shah and Peeloo. Thanks to your efforts to provide Punjabi poetry and music, life has become pleasurable. Noor Jehan's songs are invaluable gems. Congratulations to all those who have made it possible to link us intimately with Punjabi.Keep up the good work. (P.S.)


Name: Ashraf Mukhlis - December 25, 2000
E-mail: Ashraf@unknown.com
Comments:   Asslamo AlaikumTuhadi website te bari changi a te changiya changiya gallan mildiyan ne.Ehnu thora update karo kujh hoar waqt diyo su.Punjab Society di website www.punjabsociety.com te aj kal kafi material paya hoya a agar waqt mileyte check karo te naley apni rae tu nawazo, bari mehrbaniAshrafEngland


Name: Manzoor A Cheema. - December 22, 2000
E-mail: ManzoorCheema@unknown.com
Comments:   I appreciate establishing of this Punjabi website. I agree thatPunjabi language should be promoted with a secular spirit. There ishowever a more serious issue, that is middle and upper classesof Punjabis don't speak in Punjabi with their children. There is some sort of inferiority complex in our people that should be overcome. I also started reading Bulleh Shah about an year ago and have cometo know the genius of his message. There is however a need for Urdu/ English to Punjabi dictionary asmajority of Punjabis like me havea very poor vocabulary for Punjabi words. Can Dr Manzur Ejaz orsomeone else take an initiative in this regard? I also look forward for audio/ visual recording of Punjabi plays, poetry and literature. This can popularise Punjabi language and spreadits message to even those who can't read in Punjabi.Manzoor A Cheema.2708-2, Brigadoon Drive,Raleigh, North Carolina,NC 27606.


Name: Karamjit S. Bains - May 7, 2000
E-mail: bainkar@hotmail.com
Comments:   I think siraiki is just another dialect of Punjabi, just like pothohari, malwai, doabi, majhi, and not a separate language. And majhifor the last thousand or so years has been considered "Taksali Punjabi".I know there are attempts being made to change this...I wonder why? If anybody can shed light onto this please do so.your brother, Karamjit S. Bains


Name: M S Virk - March 28, 2000
E-mail: msvirick@attcanada.net
Comments:   I wonder if instutions like KITAB TRINJAN, Lahore, Pakistanand many morein Indian Punjab can start publishing some of the Punjabiclassics in talking tapes. It will help of thousands who cannot readthe Gurumakhi or Urdu script.


Name: Prem Singh Kahlon - March 26, 2000
E-mail: pkahlon@picard.tnstate.edu
Comments:   Best wishes to all my Panjabi brothers and sisters.


Name: Nisar Khan - March 7, 2000
E-mail: nisar.khan@vari-eq.com
Comments:   This message is from KITAB TRINJAN, Lahore, Pakistan. Kitab Trinjan is the first Retail shop of Punjabi Books in Lahore. Some of you must be knowing us. Delighted to see you Website. Keep it up.Tuhaddey Sajjan,Zubair AhmedAnwar ChaudhuryNisar Khan - all from :KITAB TRINJAN, Mian Chambers, Temple Road, Lahore, Pakistan


Name: Mohan Singh Virk - March 7, 2000
E-mail: MohanSingh@unknown.com
Comments:   About 150 years ago, by great grandfather left Punjab to work in Burma to build the Burma Railways. My grandfather, a child then, accompanied his father to Burma and acquired some prosperity on its way, to become small time banker in a Burmese town of Yamethin. In needing to have a safe and pleasant living environment, my grandfather brought a Sikh wife and many of his close friends and neighbors from his Punjabi village of Khena. Those who joined him and immigrated to Burma to live in this town, indeed represented punjabiees of all faiths. Sikhs Hindus and Muslims. My grandmother died of plague when my mum was a infant. A Muslim woman from our Punjabi village, Jeemti maa had a baby just few months before. In days before Gruber and Hines ,she breast-fed her baby and my mom at the same time. To this day my Mum has fondness for this lady who is lost to her after the partition.. Others from our village followed were Taya Fooju, Chacha Din Chacha Khaynia and many others. Unlike my family that stayed back in Burma after the independence, most village folks returned to Punjab in post independence era. Last time we heard from our Muslim family was when they wrote us, they would be leaving for Pakistan. and we should come back and repossess the lands they were looking after, till then.In this strange land my ancestors had moved into, they found comfort and safety in the company of Punjabi’s from their village. They were Punjabis, not Sikhs Hindus or Muslims. It was secularism at best, all united in commonness of a culture they had left behind. The politicians and clergy of today that divide us have a purpose in the agenda... A culture that is least fanatic and progressive has possibilities of acquiring power, and this should just belong to the polity and religious fanatics. Secularity as said here many times , does not make us a less religious people. or less faithful to our faith, but lets us to be tolerant to each other and realize the greatness in each one of us..Punjabee culture and language will only survive if we realize this, and stop the propaganda that is constantly directed to us, that we are danger and a treat to each other . In this direction we appreciate the work of good people like Mr. Manzoor, and many others, which have taken this time and effort to bring some light on the communality amongst us.


Name: Manzur Ejaz - Feb 1, 2000
E-mail: mejaz@CapAccess.org
Comments:   Folks,The ideas you are discussing in this chat room format are indeed very interesting! It is a natural instinct for the humankind to seek common ground with other humans ( when they are not being manipulated by the power seekers who only succeed by dividing people into us versus them). This natural urge is independent of ethnicity, religion, national origin, etc. Secularism is a natural consequence of the doctrine of "separation of church and state," formulated by the great men who wrote the constitution of this great country. Many of them were deeply religious men. Yet they realized that religious beliefs are very personal to the individuals and need not interfere in the social interactions of individuals. Unfortunately, both Indian and Pakistani men of influence failed to grasp this basic truth. I am not questioning their integrity but am assuming that they were all (initially, at least) men of goodwill, inspired by the loftiest ideals to serve the humankind within the boundaries of their respective countries. Yet they lost control of the situation with the result that lesser men with very selfish motives (or shall we say with personality disorders) exploited the situation to create the havoc that followed the Partition of India and lingers to this day in Pakistan and to some extent in India as well. That is why this chat room continuing discussion is so very important,even if it is limited to the Punabees. Keep up the good work.


Name: Mrs. A. Singh - Feb 1, 2000
E-mail: anhad1@sympatico.ca
Comments:   Secularism as a term has quite a few different connotations for different people. most of the masses confuse the term wth diluting their personal religious faiths, and some think of it as a way to politics. The clarity of this term would help a great deal. Punjabi as a language has to be delinked from religion. It is the common language of the masses. Punjabi was around since times immemorial. The loss of script through the ages was remedied by Baba Guru Nanak to equip people to be able to partake in the reading and writing of the language - so as to overthrow the monopoly of the priestly classes in the hierarchy of rigid caste system. somehow that got construed as, sometimes wilfully by wily politicians, "language of the Sikhs" in recent times, The policies of powers on both sides of the borders camouflages a basic insecurity towards the phenomena of Punjabiat which is percieved as a threat to their masterplans for their respective populations The progress of Punjabi is invariably tied to sending out the message that our recoginition common heritage, bloodlines, cuture is no different from any other out there like bangali, marathis or gujerati - and in no way a threat to anyone else - we are only celebating ourselves. Secular forces getting togather to defeat the forces of bigotry is the only answer we have.Another helpful step, in my opinion, would be the popularising of the history of the various peoples of the region, Their diversity AND their unity through this wonderful ancient language, which according to a research is probably the most direct descendent of The Sanskrit language today enriched through the ages by Persian Arabic and others. Ofcourse, this effort is going to irk some people with their shops of hatred to defend or those with vested interests.


Name: Riaz Khan - Feb 1, 2000
E-mail: RiazKhan@unknown.com
Comments:   Dear Dr. Bikran, As an American citizen of Pakistani origin, I am for Peace and feels that we Punjabis can show what love means. We Punjabis always lived liked brothers whether it was United India, US, UK or any place in the world. Message of Saints is basically a message of Love, which unfortunately has been forgotten by human beings. First and foremost, we are human beings, than Punjabis and in the end Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, etc. Dr. Bikram, please forward my message to your friends, so as message of love, peace and friendship is forwarded.Regards.Riaz Khan2106 Scenic Hollow CourtKaty, Texas 77450


Name: Mrs. A. Singh - Feb 1, 2000
E-mail: ASingh@unknown.com
Comments:   I agree with Bikram ji. Whichever faith we follow enriches us personally and hence our culture. This enrichment should be shared instead of keeping it to ourselves - and one way to do it is through the appreciation of our common heritage and language - one that has spanned the milleniums - and even today is capable of weaving magic - in speech, poetry or prose. With a common heritage one cannot be unsecular - especially in the context of globalisaion of Punjabis - away from those scenarios that divided us in the first place that led to the downward spiral we saw in the Punjabi culture and literary traditions.In words of Poet/Singer Gurdas Mann:"Punjabiaye Zabaanae, nee rakaane mere des deeyaePhikkee pai gayee chehre dee nuhaar.,Meedieeiaan khilari phiraen Bulle diyae KaafeaeKeehne tera laah leya shingaar."Keep up the good work,Thank You,


Name: Omar Ali - Feb 1, 2000
E-mail: omarali@hotmail.com
Comments:   dear manzoor saheb,a united and secular punjab would be almost a world power, but punjabi secularism was dealt a near fatal (fatal?) blow by partition. both punjab and bengal were states that had some of the greatest potential in pre-independence india and both have been very seriously wounded by partition. but since partition seems difficult (impossible?) to reverse, we have to find some other way of rescuing punjabi identity and culture. peace between india and pakistan would definitely help as more communication between east and west punjab is one of the prerequisites for the survival of punjabi culture. In the current atmosphere of army driven pakistani nationalism, i really dont see much hope for such a change. i dont think punjabi is dead and buried but its culture is on the sickbed and it may not be wise to be complacent about its future. efforts like yours (nd much more)are needed....specially the teaching of punjabi as a compulsory subject in west punjab schools. is APNA going to work for that too? maybe by helping to prepare guidelines and textbooks for this purpose?..some resurgence of punjabi as optional subject is already underway, but much more will need to be done. also, will APNA work to have more communication between literary figures on both sides? by the way, have you read my father's book of short stories? do you think we could transliterate that into gurmukhi? finally, what is your analysis of the moulvi phenomenon in both sikhism and muslim punjabis..why cant we marginalize such fanatics? witness the current controversy over reform of the sikh calendar...what are the factors in punjabi culture which led to such violence in partition and which continue to feed lashkar-tayyabas and sant jurnail singhs? we are not a very "religous" people, yet it is religious hatred that split punjab in two and which has been used to justify the replacement of punjabi by urdu in pakistan..in time, the language and culture may reassert themselves, but certainl that is not official policy in pakistan....though i know people who think the army will fail in its current efforts and that will open up space for new thinking...who knows.....just some random thoughts. best wishes.


Name: Manzur Ejaz - January 29, 2000
E-mail: Mejaz@CapAccess.org
Comments:   APNA is involved in many types of activities. We will keep you informed about this. For self education, APNA conducts a study workshop every Sunday at 1:00 pm in Washington area. In this workshop, entire Heer Waris Shah was read, discussed and analyzed over a year. Besides Waris Shah, Shah Hussain, Baba GuruNanak and other classical poets were read. Writings of modern writers are also read from time to time. We are going to strat reading Mirza Sahiban from this Sunday. You know, Mirza Sahiban was written by several poets. However, Pailo anf Hafiz Barkhurdar were the main poets who rendered this classic in most effective diction. Please send research material related to this qissa. We will try to share our Sunday discussions with you through e-mail if you like. Further, we would like formation of such study groups all around the world. Share love (not back by knowledege) will not take movement of Punjabi anywhere. That I know from experience.Another topic of discussion that I would like you particioate is the question:Can we create secularism among Punjabis without sharing the essence of language (Punjabi and its culture).Regards


Name: Pardeep Singh Rai. - January 27, 2000
E-mail: SIN2284T@uel.ac.uk
Comments:   This is a great web site. I am impressed by the work that you all do. There is a real need to promote Punjabi if it is to fulfill its destiny in the 21st century to become one of the main languages of this world. I am originaly from Malaysia but am now in the U.K. I am doing my M.SC. in Environmental Sciences at the University of East London. My Thesis will be on the water crisis in THE PUNJAB with a comparison of the problems in the PUNJAB Province in Pakistan and the PUNJAB state in India.That's all for now. Apna Punja Hove so that we Punjabis of the world can unite again.


Name: Sangeeta - January 26, 2000
E-mail: Sangeeta.Singg@angelo.edu
Comments:   I am delighted to know that there is a punjabi association. I do not know urdu, therefore, I would appreciate it if you would place every urdu text with punjabi version also. Thanks.


Name: Harbans Lal - January 21, 2000
E-mail: japji@home.com
Comments:   Very good effort. Hope to see you when I visit DC next time.


Name: Hscuhg - january 21, 2000
E-mail: hschugh@earthlink.com
Comments:   It is a matter of great pleasure that love of punjabi and Punjab is finally sprouting into a delicate plant which in time with tender love and care of all the punjabis irrespective of caste, creed or religion will grow into a beautiful tree whose shade and fruits we all will enjoy. My best wishes and congratulations to the organizers.


Name: Kulbir S. Thind, MD - January 20, 2000
E-mail: ksthind@punjabonline.com
Comments:   How can one become member of your organization? Interesting work that you are doing. I wish you the best. My address:Kulbir S. Thind, MD3724 Hacienda Street,San Mateo, CA 94403.


Name: Dr.M.S.Virick - January 20, 2000
E-mail: msvirick@attcanada.net
Comments:   I am so proud of you all, to bring us togather.We are children of the same land..the Punjab, let no one divide us. I know my own clan of Virk, for instance, half of us are Muslims and other half Sikhs. When I meet a Muslim Virk, I feel same sence of family as I do to see a Sikh brother. God bless you all


Name: Gurcharan Singh - January 20, 2000
E-mail: ott434113@intranet.ca
Comments:   1. Good idea site. 2. Why not have a bit of Punjabi(Gurmukhi script) inclusions 3. How about putting Latif's History of Punjab on Thx Cheers



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