.....May-Day De Hawaale Naal.....

Dharoee aa mulkha, dharoee
Anakh shodaa da sooraj Dubiya
jind bheRee adh-moee
...Dharuee aa mulkha, dharoee

Aas umeed da chaanan gadla
Khaore keRhe kaar da badla
Rutt sathhoN peyee maNgge
Khalqat jhore moDhe cha ke
Moonh te soch nooN jaNdre la ke
NiveeN pa pa laNghe
...Sir na chaae koee
...Dharoee aa mulkha, dharoee

Sochaan di lao maTyaali jei
Surt chaanani dhur kaali jei
Shaala, sooraj ogge
PeraaN de vich ghoNghroo pa ke
BhaNgRe, gidde naach nacha ke
Her koee piya pugge
...Jaage khalqat soee
...Dharuee aa mulkha, dharoee

BhaaNviN raat tawe di kaalakh
Chann, kaaNwaan de aahlane
jhulle laal haneri
AkhaaN de vich jugnoo bhar ke
Deve thaaN thaaN baalane
Eh sik teri meri
...Ehdi baa'j na dhoee

...Dharoee aa mulkha, dharoee

Javed Zaki

Vah Vah, bara sohna "ulatha" kita je.
While I was reading the hindi version off the link provided by Rajeev Ji, I could not help admiring the author of that piece, how much justice he/she had done while writing Hindi in English alphabets, like the use of "bindi"( .)to make it sound like Hindi.

But you took it a step forward with your "ulatha", very well done, Kudos. :-)

Regards.

sardarz veera
sorry, i don't know much about her story.. no idea if she writes too.. found her album on musicindiaonline.. give it a shot if you like http://www.musicindiaonline.com/music/l/02030D01.. hope that you like it!
sat sri akal

Rajeev Ji da post keeta RESHMA de hindi interview da Punjabi ulatha

Just a TRY

Hero film ch gaaye geet 'lammi judaai' ton hindostani dilaan ch khaas thaan banaan vaali Reshma ne lamme sammey ton baad film 'jo tera naam tha' vich pher aapni awaz ditti. Is film di mashoori layi oh pichley dinni delhi aayi. sidhey-saade te sehaj subhaa di te khulli awaz di maalkan hai Reshma. Kudrat di bukkal vich palli oh kudrat vaang hi khari te sachi-suchi hai. Subhaa da ssaupuna ohdi awaz vich vi pata lagda hai. Pichley dinni delhi ohna di pheri doraan Renuka Agarwal naal ohna di gall-baat de kujh hissy.

Allah mere ustad han. Reshma-- mera janam bharat de rajasthan subey de shehr bikaner ch ik banjara parivaar vich hoya. maape vi bharat de rehan vaale san. kamm-kaar vajon asi Soudagar hunde haan. Majhaan(buffalo) te boteyaan(camels) nu ley ke pakistan jaana te othon hor maal-dangar lai ke bharat aaona saade kabiley da veyopaar si. jithey raat paindi othe aapna dera la laina te Saver hunde hi agey da paindey(journey)layi tur paina. Injh di hi ik pheri te asi pakistan vich saan te pata lageya ke batvara(partition) ho geya hai. te is kabiley de jo lok pakistan aaye san oh ethey hi reh gaye te baaki piche hindostan vich. Main os valey sirg ik mahiney di si. Gaaon da shaunk mainu choti hundi nu si. Noorjehan, Shamshad begum te Lata ji de gaane sunndi hundi si. Asi 2 bhain-bhai saan te main mannat magdi si ke je mere bhra da viah ho jaavega te main Shahbaz kalandar di dargah te jaavangi. te jadon rabb ne meri muraad poori kitti te main Shahbaz kalandar di dargah te gayi te othey bhra de viah di khushi vich geet ga rahi si "damadam mast kalandar". os veley othey radio pakistan karachi de director saleem jilaani vi othey san. ohna ne othey mera gaana suneya te mainu vekheya. baad vich oh mere kol aaye te mainu pucheya ke tusi radio te gaana pasand karoge. Main keha ke saade kabiley vich radio te gaana pasand nahi kitta jaanda lekin tusi mainu aapna sirnaava(address) de deyo je kismat vich hoya te aapde kol jaroor hajari bhraangi. ohna kol os veley koi kaagaz vi nahi si tey ohna ne sigrat(smoke) di dabbi utey aapna address likh ke de ditta. takreeban 1 saal baad saada karachi jaana hoya te main badi khush si. Aapniyaan kujh saheliyaan nu naal lai ke mai ditte patey te pahunch gayi. pehle te gate te chowkidaar ne hi andar na jaan ditta. phir main ohnu oh patey vaali cigrat di dabbi vikhaai te oh kehnda ke eh te ohde saab da naam hai. Main keha ke eh te mainu nahi pata par ehna ne mainu milan vaaste bulaaya hai. oh saanu andar lai geya te jilaani saab mainu vekhdeyaan hi mainu pehchaan leya te keha te kehan lagey ke tu haale jiondi hain. itney samey baad aai hain. Maniu ohna ne itni der baad mil ke vi pehchaan leya mere layi ehi badi khushi di gal si. Ohna mainu pher readio te gaan layi pucheya. Main jawaab ditta ke radio lai te nahin tusi vaisey hi sun lavo jiven main dargaah te gaaya si. Os ton baad oh mainu ik band kamre vich lai gaye te ik thaan te khra kar ditta. main pucheya ke mere saamney eh danda(stick type)jeha ki khada hai tai ik bibi boli ke is lamme dandae nu mike kehnde ne te hun tusi is dande val hi munh karke gaana hai. kamre vich ik paase vaaje te dholki lai ke saaji baithe san. salim saab boley jadon asin ishaara kariye te gaana hai te jadon hath da ishaara kariye te chup ho jaana. Is tarah os din os dande vall munh karke main pehla geet gaaya. Sabh ton pehla "damadam mast kalandar" pher "haaye o rabba dil nahion lagda" pher "kitey nain na jodeen" is tarah ohna kujh gaane mare kolon gavaaye. Pher ik aadmi aaya te meri gaana gaandi di photo khich geya. Othe da maahol ghar varga si. Jadon meri photo khichi gayi te main dar gayi ke reshma hum teri kair nahi. eh meri photo kabiley vaaleyaan nu dikha ke kehnge ke rehma ethey aai si. Main othon chup-chaap kujh dasey bina aa gayi. Osey shaam hi radio vaaleyaan ne mere hi geet vaja ditey. mera bhra meri awaz pachaan ke kehnda ke aami eh te reshma di awaz hai mainu puchda ke tu kithey gaa ke aayi hain. te main keha ke ghar jehi si main te othe gaaya si par eh radio te kis tarah eh mainu nahi pata. Main te aap hairaan si main te jilaani saab de saahmney gaaya si eh radio te kis tarah aa geya. Es tarah meri gaayki di shuruaat hoi. Os veley main mahine de 10 gaane gaane hunde si os ton baad main radio te noukari vi kitti. mere abba ji te meri nikki hundi de hi mar gaye san meri maa ne hi paaleya. Oh chaande si ke je awaz changi hai te jaroor gaaona chahida. Par saade kabile vaaleyaan nu mere radio te gaan ton shikaayat si. pehla-pehla ohna mainu te meri maa nu taane maare. pher jiven-2 meri mashoori hundi gayi lok houli-2 chup karde gaye. Os ton baad main kai program kittey. Amrika,Kaneda te landan ja ke vi gaaya. pher meri maa vi rabb kol tur gayi. Is ghatna ne mainu andar takk hila ditta. Lok aksar puchde ne ke reshma tuhada Ustaad kaun hai, Isda mere kol koi jawaab nahi si hunda. kyon ke main gaane di koi sikhiya nahi layi. Ik vaar main Naushad Saheb nu keha ke jadon main kehndi haan ke Allah mera ustaad hai te loki hasde ne. Baba ji tusi mainu aapni Shagirdi vich lai lavo. Oh kehan lagey ke main tainu ki sikha sakda haan main keha ke mere lai te tuhadiyaan duaavaan hi kaafi ne. Is tarah mai ohna di Shagird hoi. Mainu Lok puchde ne ke hindostan ziadda pasand hai ke pakistan. Main jammi hindostan vich palli pakistan vich mainu te dono mulak meriyaan dovain Akhaan di tarah han. Parhaai na karan da afsos hai. Anparh hon karke gaane ratt(ghota laa ke,yaad kar ke)ke gaaondi han. autograph da chalan pehley vi si par aj jinna nahi. jadon meri mashoori hon lagi te lok mere kol autograph lai aaonde te mare kol Angootha hunda si. Pher main alaf be pe te kaida sikheya. Ehda eh faida hoya ke aapna naam likhan lagg pai te thori Akhraan di v pehchaan ho gayi. gaane nu v samjhan vich assani hundi hai. Mera mannana hai ke parhaai bohut jaroori hai Ise karke main aapne chaaro bacheyaan nu parhaya hai.

Akhlesh Ji
Kudos to your decision to research your roots,even if it meant making some family members unhappy.
You would be a role model to many youth in the comming years, just keep your enthusiam up.

Regards.

He has got some kind of problem in accepting that Panjabi is not a dialect of Hindi but is an entirely separate language which is far older than Hindu/Urdu. Whats funny is that when he goes to visit family in Delhi/Punjab he will try and show-off infront of everyone by speaking Panjabi without using one word of Hindi, but then all other times he's like "Panjabi is dialect of Hindi" blah blah. Whats worse is that i have been in presence of non-Punjabis who have tried to ridicule our language by saying things like "No one in Punjab speaks Panjabi they speak Gurumukhi" and other crap and my father will laugh and agree with them (Even though he knows they are talking sh*t)

I think it is the anti-Punjabiyat attitude of my father that has made me a strong supporter of it to the point that i am disgusted to even consider identifying with other labels like "South Asian", "Indian" whatever because i want nothing to do with any of those people.

Shame that my father feels like this about his own culture, language and history. I blame this largely on the fallout between Punjabi Sikhs and Hindus after partition. Most Punjabi Hindus i have come across seem to distance from Punjabiyat and then my father is even ashamed of admitting to them that our family is of mixed Khatri Sikh-Hindu religious background. So it all came as a big shocker to parents friends when i started to revert to Sikhism...

Anyway, i am just a Punjabi and i am proud to be one. I can tell you that alot of Punjabis my age would like to know more about the history and cultures of Punjab but just there is no one approachable they can learn from.

click here to go to the interview
lemme' know how you like it!
sat sri akal

Regards.

LAHORE The government of the Punjab is working on protecting Sikh sacred sites and is setting up an institute that will promote the Punjabi language and culture that both communities share, said Punjab Chief Minister Chaudhry Pervaiz Elahi on Friday.

He met a delegation of Sikh pilgrims, headed by Sikh leader Harvinder Sindh Sarna, which called on him at his residence. He told them that the government was going to make sure that Sikh Yatrees would have all the amenities they needed at these special sites.

These government decisions come at a time when thousands of Sikh pilgrims flocked to Pakistan for the Besakhi festival this year. This has brought about very encouraging people-to-people contact between Pakistan and India, which auger well for the peace process, Mr Elahi said.

The road leading to the sacred site of Darbar Kartarpur near Narowal has been rehabilitated and constructed, which means that travel to this site is much easier for the Sikh pilgrims, Mr Elahi told the delegation.

The government is also working on setting up residential facilities and better infrastructure for Sikh visitors at Nankana Sahib, he said. These developments are important because the government values the cultural and historic relationship that exists between the two communities that share the Punjabi language, he said.

Mr Elahi emphasized that Islam teaches peace, tolerance and brotherhood and, keeping this Islamic spirit in view, the government is implementing a strategy for the protection of the rights of minorities in the province. In the wake of the recent visit by the Chief Minister of East Punjab, Capt (r) Amrinder Singh, the relations between the two countries have been much rosier, Mr Elahi said. Both communities need to work together to eliminate poverty and backwardness on both sides of the border, he said. The exchanges of delegations of journalists, lawyers and sportsmen, have had a strong and positive impact on the ties between the two countries, he said.

Harvinder Singh Sarna said that Mr Elahi has ensured the availability of better transport facilities for Sikh Yatrees with the construction and rehabilitation of the Darbar Kartarpur Road. The Sikhs appreciated the better facilities now available at Nankana Sahib, which have meant that more Sikh Yatrees have been encouraged to visit the site. staff report

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_24-4-2004_pg7_9

You wrote in your last post "I HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE LEADERSHIP ROLE FOR MY CONSTITUENCY AND MY FAMILY.I MUST ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS THAT COULD DEFAME MY FAMILIES NAME"
Even though you accept the responsibility of answering the questions, you FAILED to answer my inquiries.If you would have expressed your lack of information about my questions I would have understood it, but after your not so positive take on my questions, my curiosity has incresed even more and I will research furthur to find the answers that I originally seeked from you.

You also mentioned "I SHALL ADVICE YOU THEREFORE NOT TO DEFAME YOUR OWN AND NOT GO SO DEEP INTO HISTORY, THAT YOU GET CONFUSED", with due respects I disagree with your state of mind and ADVISE.
Think about it for a while, did'nt Guru Nanak did precisely this ie question the HISTORY, here are some examples.
-Guru Nanak goes to Mecca and a Mullah asks him to sleep with his feet in a direction away from the site of Mecca the abode of Allah, Guru answers him by saying put my feet in the direction where there is no Allah.
-Brahmins are pouring water with hands in direction of Sun so it can reach his ancestors while bathing in River Ganges, Guru starts pouring water in opposite direction, when asked why, he told em he was pouring water in direction of his fields in Kartarpur and reminded them, if water could reach their anscestors it could reach his fields too.

The point here is Guru questioned the STATUS QUO, there is nothing wrong in going deep in History and finding answers to questions that come to your mind.
I am not a believer in supression of mind,free will or inquisitiveness, and neither did any Prophet preach supression of mind, be it Guru Nanak, Prophet Mohamad or Jesus Christ...

Regards.

**********Ghazl**********

umraaN baadooN wehRRay aya kisraaN yaar sanjhapay da

sanooN aksarrehnda nahi hoon cheta apne aapay da

dil di lagyaaN da koi daroo devayay te maiN manaaN

har koi waid hakeem sayana yaro kasoo tapay da

Ik table de doojay pasay roosya sajjan brtha ae

KehRay feetay de nal koi vichli doori napay da

Jangal belay di virani melay wargi lagge gi

Naqsha khich kedassaN tenooN jay apne aklapay da

Teray payaar ne yaar Sikander akheen banhyaaN pattyaN

JehRay phul nooN wekhaN ga oh teray warga japay da

**********Altaf Sikander Busal******

The evergreen folk dances of Punjab
http://www.tribuneindia.com/1998/98sep13/sunday/head2.htm#1

Punjabi dances
http://www.lokpunjab.org/mela/English/articles/article_detail.asp?ID=50

This a good news from Daily Times:

Tourism to put Lahore, Punjab on the map
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_22-4-2004_pg7_20

From what i have read about Chief Minister Pervaiz Elahi i like. He seems to be a leader with vision, which unfortunately Chief Ministers of East Punjab seem to lack...

I do not know about the "shand" that you mentioned in your post but based on the information of the singers that you provided I will make a guess.

Actually the singer of shehr patiale de fame is not Hardeep Gill but simply Hardeep. Hardeep Gill is a new singer. I can make a guess that if it is the other Hardeep, then his troupe might have included a singer by the name of Bhupinder Babbal from Sector 43 Chandigarh. He is the best exponent of Mirza that I have ever heard and he is interested in singing rarely sung folk songs. He has a long hek, though his voice is not so high pitched. His other popular songs include "jutti kare mutiyar di chikun-chikun" and "mundiyo aa gayi oye, sir te gagar rakhi". He was popular among the chandigarh youth crowd in late 80's and early 90's and has faded since though his other contemporaries like Bindrakhia made it big. Infact Bindrakhia also started off as a "filler" in Hardeep's shows.

I remember that Bhupinder has recorded a rarely sung "kali" called "milkhi ram di kali" and he is good.

I hope this information helps. Other people who might have sung this type of shand is singer Pammi Bai who worked at the North Zone Cultural Centre in Patiala. North Zone Cultural Centre was also responsible for bringing into limelight another offbeat tradition - "babian da giddha". Some even call it the "Malwayi Giddha" but it was made famous by some old men (babas) from Sunam near Patiala.

Baljit

I hope this will actually take place and is not just "talk".

I SHALL ADVICE YOU THEREFORE NOT TO DEFAME YOUR OWN AND NOT GO SO DEEP INTO HISTORY, THAT YOU GET CONFUSED. INSAAN ZINDABAAD REGARDS

Regards.

-Per the site Rai Bular gave half his landed property to the tunes of thousands of acres to Guru Nanak, if thats the case why did Guru Nanak spend his last days farming in KARTARPUR, or was that a part of Rai Bular's gift too ?
-Was the land given by Rai Bular passed on to Guru Nanak's decendents or the Guru's that followed him like Guru Angad,Guru Amardas...if not, why?
-It is clear from the site at present Rai Bular's decendants farm the land,do ALL the proceeds go to the benefit of the families that farm it, if not how are they handled and distributed ?

Regards.

Javed Zaki

...Os BaNde de NaaviN jinnhe sach bolan di sazaa paaee...

SaaeeN! hirkh naaN kar Din chaRhsi Lo hosi ApniyaaN sadhraaN te tahNgaaN de ...charagh jalaaee rakh Rutt (moasam) jillhi e, luggi e ...par be'suddhi neiN NehriyaaN di phhaNddi e, duggi e ...par kabhuddi neiN Rutt de sawaah dabbe quqnus (pheonex) nooN ...bhaaNbhaR jazbiyaaN di loR e Bas es gal di ee zara thhoR e Shala. raNgaaN vich raNg milan da vela theeve Khalqat rooh ratt da eka karey Nissar hovey Pal pal wasse Sukh sukh jeeve

Javed Zaki

My last words on this

I will even use proper capitalization while I write, as a mark of respect to you :-)
I sincerely hope that I was able to get across my take on this issue, as you have been able to get across yours. If that objective has come to pass, I am happy that it was a learning experience for everbody (me for sure!)..

Not to harp on my insignificant knowledge in these matters, I wanted to share with you Gurbani passages that speak of the tri-guni maya and put tamas, rajas and sattwa in context. These words are not a mere intellectual's words, but the "revealed" wisdom of our sages. I hope that you agree.(* Notation -- sggs for Sri Guru Granth Sahib)

1. Raajas saatak taamas darapahi kaetae roop oupaaeiaa (sggs 999)
2. Raj gun tam gun sat gun kaheeai ih teri sabh maya (sggs 1123).
3. Raajas taamas sat kaal samaavai (sggs 840)
4. Tam andh koop te udhrai naam mann vasayeeai (sggs 249).
5. Binaa satigur boojh naahee tam moh mahaan andhhaar (sggs 1229)
6. Trai gun maya moh pasara sabh varte aakari (sggs 1260)
7. Raj tam sat kal teri chhaya (sggs 1037)

Sukhbir jee, the above is a partial list and more can be glanced at http://www.gurbani.org/webart2.htm The translation mostly passes muster.

Something of our good old Berty Russell comes to mind but he can not hold a candle to the profound truths that Gurbani expounds so I'll not humble him. Chota veer samajh kae muaaf hi kar deo taan kinaa vadhiyaa hove. vaddayaan da aheeo tae baddappan hundaa hai ki chottayaan di galtiaan noon dillee naheen laande.. If you can write that you indeed forgive me for my gustakhi, I'll be delighted.

Eagerly waiting for your post, maan rakhna veer jee.
Yours truly,
Rajeev

My last words on this

I will even use proper capitalization while I write, as a mark of respect to you :-)
I sincerely hope that I was able to get across my take on this issue, as you have been able to get across yours. If that objective has come to pass, I am happy that it was a learning experience for everbody (me for sure!)..

Not to harp on my insignificant knowledge in these matters, I wanted to share with you Gurbani passages that speak of the tri-guni maya and put tamas, rajas and sattwa in context. These words are not a mere intellectual's words, but the "revealed" wisdom of our sages. I hope that you agree.(* Notation -- sggs for Sri Guru Granth Sahib)

1. Raajas saatak taamas darapahi kaetae roop oupaaeiaa (sggs 999)
2. Raj gun tam gun sat gun kaheeai ih teri sabh maya (sggs 1123).
3. Raajas taamas sat kaal samaavai (sggs 840)
4. Tam andh koop te udhrai naam mann vasayeeai (sggs 249).
5. Binaa satigur boojh naahee tam moh mahaan andhhaar (sggs 1229)
6. Trai gun maya moh pasara sabh varte aakari (sggs 1260)
7. Raj tam sat kal teri chhaya (sggs 1037)

Sukhbir jee, the above is a partial list and more can be glanced at http://www.gurbani.org/webart2.htm The translation mostly passes muster.

Something of our good old Berty Russell comes to mind but he can not hold a candle to the profound truths that Gurbani expounds so I'll not humble him. Chota veer samajh kae muaaf hi kar deo taan kinaa vadhiyaa hove. vaddayaan da aheeo tae baddappan hundaa hai ki chottayaan di galtiaan noon dillee naheen laande.. If you can write that you indeed forgive me for my gustakhi, I'll be delighted.

Eagerly waiting for your post, maan rakhna veer jee.
Yours truly,
Rajeev

you are just not leaving the "rajas" issue still! let me explain.. in sanskrit this kind of misuse is a common thing, specially by our "goraa" sahibs.. take "virya" for example.. what does it mean, well it is human semen.. so "virya-je" would be - born of semen.. but at the same time "virya" means power, prowess, strength etc. therefore, "viryavan" should not (only) be translated as "one who has a lot of semen!",infact, "viryavan" is "very powerful, very strong" etc. etc... and singh-virya is "strength of lion"..

sukhbir jee, i have no doubt in my mind whatsoever about your literary genius.. and this is no sarcasm.. you are a learned man, but should you not atleast listen to us lower-ones once in a while?.. my post did rub you on the wrong side, but i insist that it was "that post" that deserved the contempt that it received, and not your esteemed self.. your contributions to this forum are invaluable specially for "mrigash" like me..

baba bulley shah was right when he said
"bullya harmandir mein aaye kae, kahe lekh deyo bata,
pade pandit pande door kiye, ahmak liye bula"

and finally short and sweet as usual Guru Arjundev jee
"ved puran simrat sudhakhyar, keenae ram nam ek aakhyar"

sukhbir jee, koi uchi neewi gal ho gai hove tae muaafi dena, chota samajh kae.. khush raho!
sat sri akal

Just would like to ask that please be considerate that this is a Punjabi forum so try not to stray too far off topic by arguing over a religion (Hinduism).

I hope some of you had a chance to read over what was researched by the British and published in their Imperial Gazetteer of British India. The Khatris, Rajputs, Jats and Charmas of Punjab do not greatly differ in physical appearance or mannerisms and with few exceptions are of the same racial-stock (Labelled as "Indo-Aryan"). These Punjabi castes have more in common with eachother than they do with outsiders (Non-Punjabis) who share the same caste labels. Example, whether "high-caste" or "low-caste" all the Hindustanis (UPities, Biharis, Rajasthani) are little different from eachother and are mixed Indo-Aryan/Dravidian stock (Hence Hindustanis are called "Aryo-Dravidians"). Dravidian blood is not found among Punjabis, Kashmiris or some of the Rajasthanis so how these Brahmins of Hindustan and their texts can have much credibility is beyond me when they lie about their ancestors (Trying to deny they are the same as other black-skinned natives)...

Sorry if anything sounds harsh or racist but thats the truth. Caste does not = race. Castes dont have their own language, culture or homelands, they may have just a few varying traditions but thats it. Its been too long that caste has been allowed to survive, especially among non-Hindus. All this Jatt pride crap is laughable and i wonder if anything like that would exist if Maharaja Ranjit Singh had not been a Jatt or if the British had not turned some Jatts into "Rajas" overnight (Like Patiala house).

Cant even listen to modern Punjabi pop without having to hear some moron go on about Jatts like that actually means something (And its usually by someone who claims to be a Sikh on top of that!).

Anyway please read these:
Forming an identity
http://www.tribuneindia.com/1999/99jul03/saturday/head1.htm

A hardy people in search of new role
http://www.tribuneindia.com/1999/99nov21/book.htm#1

a) I’m quoting nothing – I emphasize nothing – out of context. In fact, were I to collate all the shlokas from the 12 chapters of Manusmriti – things will become too awkward for people who want to defend the Varnic classification/organization of people in terms of harmonious social structures. The evidence of regression is overwhelming and unabashedly self-congratulatory. If I say that Manusmriti is anti-woman and casteist – I mean it in a purely ideological and theoretic sense with far-reaching implications for the way the state looks at itself in terms of a series of hegemonies. My references are from the text issued by Chaukhamba Prakashan in original Sanskrit.

b) I have quoted only 18 shlokas but there are hundreds and hundreds that remain unquoted. There is no reason why I should be the one to open up the pandora’s box for I have no desire to provoke others to demean themselves to the extent of using expressions such as “but this is a bunch of bull”. In critical discourse we assiduously avoid such language but then I am a committed votary of freedom of expression. In the interest of larger harmony I would avoid mentioning how the uncomplimentary bridges between “womanhood” and “motherhood” have been selectively and willfully distorted.

c) It is all very fine to cite examples of Gargi and Maitreyi but where is their philosophical discourse? They merely ask questions to which answers are provided by the superior? male savants. It is not even remotely comparable to the exploration of the self as, for instance, in Raabia, Lal Ded or the political angst of Habba Khatun.

d) I am remain unconvinced by Baljit P’a’s recurrent reference to the critical domain of scholarship. What are his points of reference: Romilla Thapar, DD Kosambi, DN Jha …? Who? His almost apologetic reference to ritu as the word for menstruation isn’t convincing either. Were he to look into any standard Sanskrit dictionary – pick up any published by the renowned Motilal Banarsidas – he would trace rajas as menstrual discharge and menses. One can very well act as a “jesting pilate” but the semantic fact is substantiated with references from classical Indian texts such as Kumarsambhava, MaaltImaadhava or even BhagwadgItaa. e) As for the shloka from Bhratihari, I had learnt it at the lotus feet of the late Dr Devraj Chanana who was then the Head of the Sanskrit Department of Sanskrit at the University of Delhi and who had done his Ph.D in Indology from Sorbonne under the renowned Indologist Louis Renou. Dr Chanana also edited the well-known Punjabi monthly, Preet Lari, for a short while. I am aware of other versions of the shloka but that does not render mine ridiculous.

Sukhbir

mainu

bhajee, i have always marvelled at your unique insight at things and eloquent penmanship.. it is not you but your last post that begot the contempt that it deeserved... naasamajh hegaa haan, galti ho gai..
by the way, "rajaswalaa" is indeed a menstruating woman but that does not make "rajas" what you think it is.. i even had a fellow student called Rajas.. oops, here i go again.. no more..

without even a semblance of any kind of knowledge, i am infact a child ( an enfant terrible if you will) and everready to learn.. so no hard feelings.. but bhajee, please try to dilute the ascerbicity a tad bit, for the benefit of my ilk..

finally, the shloka is indeed beautiful ( i wanted to make a couple of corrections but i refrain myself with a cheerful promptness).. are'nt we all? ;-)

baljeet veer jee your intention was never in doubt.. your post was thoughtful and representative (i think!).. this forum is august indeed and i have evolved much by soaking the wisdom of the enlightened ones here.. so no sweat! quoting kaurasach veer jee "kadeh kadeh garmee wee changee hundee ai, paala nahin lagda" ha ha ha ha..

sajid veera wah wah! geet bada changaa lagyaa.. keep it coming once in a while..

sat sri akal

Obviously we all are punjabis before we are Indians or Pakistanis,I dont think there is anyhing wrong in researching, what we were,before we were punjabis (the word Punjabi originates from Persian, we all know that), discussions pertaining to this inquisitiveness are educational.
The other issue I want to bring to everyone's attention is that we all collectively start to supress "Conflict" whenever there are opposing views presented, as if everyone is eager to bring their bucket of water to put the fire out, when there is no fire.
For heavens sake this is a "Discussion board" after all, conflict is bound to happen,when you discuss things.Dont forget positive conflict leads to Agreement,Stronger Relationships and Learning for all..

Regards.

My contribtution to the debate was meant in a very critical vein and meant to raise the issue of punjabi exceptionalism and was in no way intended to harm the amity of this august discussion forum.

I agree with RajivJi that sanskrit shlokas if taken out of context can mean diffrent things to diffrent people. Take the word for menstruation which Sukhbir ji believes is Rajaswala. I thought the sanskrit word was ritu (literally meaning season). For a gender based critical analysis, no doubt people will use rajaswala because is useful for their argument.

I agree this caste business is complicated. My understanding of caste is based on sociological theories which emphasise that in diffrent regions of indian subcontinent, this system has evolved with varying degree of conformity to the ideal typical varna depending upon local cultural variations and socioeconomic conditions. Historians of ancient india theorise a diffrent reality which existed before samkhya and related ancient smrities and shastras came into existance i.e. vedic time. So it is no use arguing on these issues because it becomes a "dialogue of the deaf". But it is important that we consider every point of view and try to construct a reality that will help us in our quest to coexist in harmony.

Thanks a lot for your inputs and Rab Rakha. Baljit

Sukhbir

Yeshaam naa vidyaa, naa tapo naa daanam naa chapi sheelam naa gunam naa dharmah Te janaah martya loke khalu bhaar bhootah manushya roopenNa mrigaash charanti

I]ld much rather not translate these lines into my kind of English.

For, I'm not into the Infinity Foundation type of "feel-good" narcissism. I would like to see myself driven by a critically compassionate view.We have done enough damage to ourselves by "seeing all cows black in the night of our ignorance". I wonder why I so often quote this expression from Søren Kirkegaard. Forgive me this bit of self-indulgence

For now, it is, as the Upnishadas say:

Charaivati, charaivati

Sukhbir

i apologize if i sounded too rude.. but, i would like to say that in the issue of religious and philosophical texts context is everything.. if taken out of context, things can be made to look totally different from what they are and represent...

finally, our gurus and sages have shown all dry intellectualism its due place..
Guru Amardas jee, (Adi Granth)
Jee jant sabh tis de, sabhanaa kaa soi
manda kisnoo aakhiye, jae dujaa hoi

and Sant Kabeer jee
jaat paat puche nahi koi
hari ko bhaje so hari ka hoi

and finally, my favorite -- short and sweet
Guru Arjundev jee(Adi Granth)
ek pitaa ekas kae hum baarak

once again, hath jod kae -- bhul chuk muaaf.. jinni meri akal haigi hai ossee hisaab naal main apne khayal sajjanna de agge rakhe nein.. rab sabda bhala kare
rab rakha

I think this debate about the caste system is taking a peculiar turn. indeed!

P’a Baljeet cites scholarship on Ancient Indian History – though the sources remain largely unsubstantiated. At least, I haven’t come across any evidence whatsoever to suggest that the so-called “original caste system” allowed you to do what you wished to do. Manusmriti, which supposedly goes back to 1500 BC, makes no such claims to liberal espousal of vocation as per one’s free will. On the contrary, it remains a highly enclosed and prescriptive text comparable in its messianically repressive zeal to some of the worst anti-women, cateist ideologies ever practised by human kind.

oh really! firstly, just because you have not come across any "so called original caste system" does not mean that it did not exist.. manu smriti, is an expedient set of rules enforcing social mores and societal dynamics of a particular period of time.. it has been a widespread and established belief that "shrutis" ie. vedas and upanishads hold more sway( and embody fundamental values) in case of a difference of opinion.. now to the repressive zeal thingy.. what you have described is absolutley correct but hold on ..and please try to describe the "discrepancies" in your own special way.. i'll translate (amateurish of course):<br>
1. where women are worshipped gods delight in that land, where they are not all efforts come to a nought!
2. a brahmin has to learn from anybody and everybody even a shudra/pariah etc.
3. a girl MUST be educated just a boy
4. the three major league sins according to Mr. Manu :-) are drinking wine, killing a brahmin and guess what "killing a woman"..
5. maitreyi and gargi are well known and reverred women scholars... gargi as the legend goes, challenged the great sage yajnavalkya in a convention of the learned ones and taught him a trick or two in metaphysics!
5. i think i have established my line of thought..

As for varnic classification of the Hindu society, kindly read carefully shlokas 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 93, 93 of chater 1 of Manusmriti and decide for yourself if the great Manu has not associated some of the hierarchic attributes to the very origin of the human spirit – in material terms, the birth. Shlok 91, very clearly states that “God Almighty has ordained only one task for the shudras namely to serve the other three varnas selflessly.
four types of yogas extant and flourishing for the last few hundred years, might hold a key to the above shloka.. a disciple asks his teacher "Yo! big boy! if i can't hold my concentration while i meditate, what then big daddy!" the "big daddy" replis "yo! your game will take some time to improve so your way is "SERVICE".. serve the poor and the sick, serve the knowledgable and your game will pick up.. word up, baby!"

Shloka 92 clearly mentions that “man” (not woman)’s piety exists only above “his” navel and Bramha has Himself created the face to be the purest of them all. Since the shudras are identified already with the lower part of the human anatomy, the passage to purity is unavailable to the shudras.

the concept of creation above navel is widely understood.. the above or below navel rant is symbolic of upper or lower "chakras" of human body.. people born of a particular chakra have a particular disposition.. some like to sing praises of the lord, some like to sit and meditate, some like to work and serve the others... the idea is to keep mind in the upper chakras or make an attempt to move upwards by doing good deeds, name of the lord etc. etc. the unavailability of purity to shudras is a degenerated state of affairs and is not the original intent.. otherwise how do you explain the fact that as soon as even a shudra becomes a "sanyasin" all the brahmins fall at his feet!..

Brahman’s origin is couched in prenatal mysticism in shloka 93 and is declared to be the Master of the World. I am afraid your arguments in the face of textual evidence appear not only tenuous but ill researched.
i will keep my comments for later.. just want to make sure whether you mean "brahmin" or "brahman"..

Also look at shlokas 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157 in chapter 5 of Manusmriti to specificallyaddress the gender question. It denies free choice to women and assigns all decision-making-responsibilities pertaining to their lives to the father, husband or the son. She is also expected to unquestionably serve the man to whom she is married till her last breath. She is furthemore expected to not only treat even an adulterous, characterless and unethical husband as equal to god but to revere as such. Woman can earn respect in heaven only by being in the constant service of her husband. She is not allowed to hold any fasting, religious rituals etc independently of the male sanctions.

sorry to use my new found los angeles idiom, but this is a bunch of bull! let me go one by one..

1. mother ( a woman, by the way) is the most worshipped form.. a partial list would be ma kaali, ma durgaa, ma ambaa, ma bhavani, and myriad other forms of shakti.. this should dispel the illusions about the context of mr. manu's writings..<br>
2. once married, no pujas can be held without the presence of your "ardhaangini" lit. "half of your body".. more puritanical followers do not allow even visits to temples without your wife if married.. so you see it works both ways..
<br>
3. the all suffering aspect is celebrated in our culture from ages.. there are injunctions about a woman trying to emulate Sita but the injunctions(though conveniently forgotten!) also ask a man to emulate Ram!

The triad “rajas”, sattva” and “tamas” in the Samkhya school is not aligned with the caste system as much as it is with the regressive gender classification. The triad is quite clearly laid down as the essential attributes of prakriti (nature or woman) as against purush (consciousness or man). Notice that the word purush did not have a feminine gender – for instance, I suggest paurushi but then I make immodestly bold to say that it is my nomenclature and does not exist in the Sanskrit language. How is it that the ever-fluid domain of consciousness is completely hegemonized by patriarchy and only the brooding darkness of the still nature or prakriti is left to fall in the lap of matrilineal rituals. These are uneasy questions. The triad is further identifiable with what a woman’s role in the larger social network is: “rajas” is menstrual blood – a woman is supposed to produce; “sattva” is the truth of sexual loyalty that binds a woman to her husband – remember the idea of “sati” has not a little to do with the idea of sexual “sattitva” embedded in the “sattva”; the darkness of “tamas” is similarly interpretable which I would rather not go into.

"regressive gender classification".. sir, with due respect, did you go to school with freud! you have taken a wonderful system of tri-gunas and twisted it so crassly that it makes me want to, well i'll hold that thought.. "rajas" is not mestrual blood, it is the guna that forms the "active/moving" part of the human constitution.. rajasic people have found great place in history as kings, builders etc. sometimes it is a prescribed remedy to dispel tamas.. satwa's qualities are dispassion, calmness, illumination etc. and tamas is lethargy, inaction, dullness.. in order of human evolution they are generally ordered as (ascending--) tamas--> rajas --> sattwa.. it has no special significance for a man or a woman, it is for every human.. so your gender based analysis takes the form of a almost disgruntled rant..

And let me also briefly mention that I am not in agreement with the kind of explations offered on the forum pertaining to the bridges between Kshtrias and khatris; Vaishyas and Jats etc. The debate is far too complex to be taken up lightly. In fact, to preserve and maintain a dignity of amiable coexistence on the forum, it is best to avoid such debates for they can be bitter, acerbic and disharmonious.

i totally agree with you on that one sukhbir veer jee.. look what this debate has done! ha ha ha.. but on a more serious note, you should try to be less ascerbic before pounding your gavel and reaching a totally unlicensed decision about the not so trivial matters of ancient history..<p>

sajid vee koi gana-shana post kar deo sir jee... garmi boht ho rhaee hai ithe..
sat sri akal

P’a Baljeet cites scholarship on Ancient Indian History – though the sources remain largely unsubstantiated. At least, I haven’t come across any evidence whatsoever to suggest that the so-called “original caste system” allowed you to do what you wished to do. Manusmriti, which supposedly goes back to 1500 BC, makes no such claims to liberal espousal of vocation as per one’s free will. On the contrary, it remains a highly enclosed and prescriptive text comparable in its messianically repressive zeal to some of the worst anti-women, cateist ideologies ever practised by human kind.

As for varnic classification of the Hindu society, kindly read carefully shlokas 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 93, 93 of chater 1 of Manusmriti and decide for yourself if the great Manu has not associated some of the hierarchic attributes to the very origin of the human spirit – in material terms, the birth. Shlok 91, very clearly states that “God Almighty has ordained only one task for the shudras namely to serve the other three varnas selflessly.

Shloka 92 clearly mentions that “man” (not woman)’s piety exists only above “his” navel and Bramha has Himself created the face to be the purest of them all. Since the shudras are identified already with the lower part of the human anatomy, the passage to purity is unavailable to the shudras.

Brahman’s origin is couched in prenatal mysticism in shloka 93 and is declared to be the Master of the World. I am afraid your arguments in the face of textual evidence appear not only tenuous but ill researched.

Also look at shlokas 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157 in chapter 5 of Manusmriti to specificallyaddress the gender question. It denies free choice to women and assigns all decision-making-responsibilities pertaining to their lives to the father, husband or the son. She is also expected to unquestionably serve the man to whom she is married till her last breath. She is furthemore expected to not only treat even an adulterous, characterless and unethical husband as equal to god but to revere as such. Woman can earn respect in heaven only by being in the constant service of her husband. She is not allowed to hold any fasting, religious rituals etc independently of the male sanctions.

The triad “rajas”, sattva” and “tamas” in the Samkhya school is not aligned with the caste system as much as it is with the regressive gender classification. The triad is quite clearly laid down as the essential attributes of prakriti (nature or woman) as against purush (consciousness or man). Notice that the word purush did not have a feminine gender – for instance, I suggest paurushi but then I make immodestly bold to say that it is my nomenclature and does not exist in the Sanskrit language. How is it that the ever-fluid domain of consciousness is completely hegemonized by patriarchy and only the brooding darkness of the still nature or prakriti is left to fall in the lap of matrilineal rituals. These are uneasy questions. The triad is further identifiable with what a woman’s role in the larger social network is: “rajas” is menstrual blood – a woman is supposed to produce; “sattva” is the truth of sexual loyalty that binds a woman to her husband – remember the idea of “sati” has not a little to do with the idea of sexual “sattitva” embedded in the “sattva”; the darkness of “tamas” is similarly interpretable which I would rather not go into.

And let me also briefly mention that I am not in agreement with the kind of explations offered on the forum pertaining to the bridges between Kshtrias and khatris; Vaishyas and Jats etc. The debate is far too complex to be taken up lightly. In fact, to preserve and maintain a dignity of amiable coexistence on the forum, it is best to avoid such debates for they can be bitter, acerbic and disharmonious.

Sukhbir

Baljit

Among Rajputs they have their own hierarchy system, so you can get 'high caste' Rajputs and mid/low ranking Rajputs. I think Khatris also have a lower division called 'Aroras'.

And yes you can get Punjabi Muslims who's forefathers were of Khatri caste just like there are Punjabi Muslims of all other Punjab castes.

Here is an article on a group of Punjabi Muslims living in Delhi who are of 'Khatri' caste:

Death no leveller in Capital cemetery
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/mp/2003/03/06/stories/2003030600560300.htm

New Delhi, April 15
Songs that stuck a chord and recalled the pre Partition times had the audience not just getting emotional, but also demanding a revival of folk music.

The event organised here last evening by the World Punjabi Organisation (WPO), had Pakistani singers Khalil Haider, Samina Iqbal, Saira Naseem and melody king Shaukat Ali singing Punjabi and Urdu songs in a style that reminded the audience of the golden age of Punjabi music.

For the elderly Punjabis, who had migrated to India after the Partition, jokes and mimicry by comedian Irfan Khoosat in a typical ‘’Lahoria and (Rawal) Pindi’’ diction was also a welcome break from the slapstick comedy that one gets to see on the tube.

International WPO president Vikramjit Singh Sahney said the WPO is working to revive and spread the folk heritage of undivided Punjab, which unfortunately has been overshadowed by pop.

He said they are planning a series of concerts in India, Pakistan, Britain, Dubai and the US.

The event, he added, marked a clear distinction between pop and culture. He said the idea is to revive a culture currently confused with pop.

Pakistan’s Deputy High Commissioner Munnawar Bhatti, National Commission for Minorities (NCM) chief Tarlochan Singh, former CBI Director Joginder Singh, former BSNL Chairman Prithipal Singh and leading entrepreneurs and professionals from the global Punjabi diaspora were present at the show.

The WPO also honoured leading Punjabi personalities like Thailand’s Tirlok Singh Chawla, Pakistan’s Chaudhary Qadir Ahmed and orthopaedic surgeon P S Maini.

Pop singers Mika and Kaptaan Ladi also performed during the event.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040416/ncr1.htm#11

However rather than make an apology they should investigate, arrest and bring to justice those people who were involved in anti-Sikh riots and disappearances of Sikh youth in Punjab during the 80's and 90'.

Ok, no more from me on that.

Ps, I know what you mean about Jats and inter-caste marriage. Sikhs who's forefathers were of Jat caste also do this, why i dont know...

Im not sure how useful this is now but you can read about different racial-types of the subcontinent through British eyes here:
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/reference/gazetteer/

Some broad generalizations on regions:
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/reference/gazetteer/pager.html?objectid=DS405.1.I34_V01_323.gif

Amritsar, April 14: The wife of a descendant of the Mughals on Wednesday paid obeisance at the Akal Takht, marking a historic moment in time as she sought pardon for the atrocities committed by her ancestors.

Sultana Begum, the widow of Mirza Mohammed Bedar Bakht, great grandson of Bahadur Shah Zafar, the last recognised Mughal emperor, arrived in this Sikh holy city on Tuesday night just when everybody had given up hope.

“I am feeling relieved,” she said after paying homage at the Golden Temple.Sultana Begum left for Delhi on Wednesday to seek forgiveness at Gurudwara Sis Ganj in Chandni Chowk where the ninth Sikh Guru Tegh Bahadur was beheaded on the orders of Aurengzeb.

“I am not doing it for any kind of publicity. I had this heartfelt desire to seek forgiveness because our family has suffered a lot of misery,” she said. She did not meet any Sikh religious leaders.“I hope the community forgives our lineage and hatred for the Mughals is no longer there. Islam doesn’t permit cruelty against anyone,” she said. Mother of five daughters and a son, who works as a cook in Saudi Arabia, Sultana Begum also went to the Durgiana temple here.

“I belong to a royal lineage. Look at my pathetic condition, living in poverty. I only have a tea-stall in Howrah.”Her plight was highlighted last year after which she got a financial assistance of Rs 50,000 from the Central government.

“Since I am a descendant from the Mughal family, the government should give me two bighas of land and a Rs 50,000 monthly pension,” she demanded. Sultana Begum’s apology at the Golden Temple here marks one more event in the tumultuous history of the Sikhs and the Mughal emperors, who reigned over India for seven generations.

Source: Deccan Chronicle on the web dated 15 April 2004

I will send you some poems for publication in 'KhabraaN'. Moreover, We will be visiting Pakistan during the Summer for an academic assignment and will be located at the Lahore University of Mangement Sciences (LUMS). But before the summer session begins, we have a program to visit Islamabad for 4-5 days. I will be in touch with you once we reach Pakistan around May 22.

Accept my congratulations on the publication of your new book.

Javed Zaki

True, but i think these 'castes' were never races to begin with. Races like Aryans, Persians, Greeks/Bactrians, Scythians, Parthians, Huns, Kushana and Turks have all mixed their blood in Punjab and Punjabis are their descendants. Caste probably came much after this or different races were eventually absorbed into "castes".

Jats can be found from Punjab to Assam. What does a Punjabi Jatt and UP Jat have in common other than their 'caste'? Psychically, they dont resemble eachother, they dont speak the same language, eat same foods, etc Jatt from Punjab is just like Rajput, Khatri, Arora etc. I think people tend to confuse 'caste' with 'tribe'. For example, Gujjars are a tribe, not a caste. A Gujjar from Iran, Punjab, Afghanistan, Kashmir is likely to be of the same race. They are a nomadic people who have spread out. However, the same cannot be said for Rajputs and Jats from different regions. Just take a look at Rajput militants of 'Ranvir Sena' group from Bihar and they look no different from any other Bihari, depsite the fact that they kill and rape their fellow Biharis whom they think of as "low castes".

Also this idea that Jatts are a "noble warrior race" who came from Scandanavia or Mars wherever is quite laughable. I would like to know by what miracle did these noble warriors end up in South Asia being peasents, farmers etc

As for the word "Bhape", i thought this was just a derogatory remark used for those Khatris and Aroras who migrated to Delhi, Ambala etc from West Punjab at time of partition. My family moved from Gujranwala and Lahore mainly to Delhi and i sometimes hear that West Punjabi Sikhs and Hindus are looked down upon by East Punjabis. Probably jealousy since the West Punjabis who migrated East were on the whole a more successful people than those already in East Punjab. (No i am not just saying that to cause controversy).

Couple last points. Calling yourself a "Jatt Sikh" is a joke and a slap in the face to Sikhism and Sikh Guru's. Considering Jats were (and still are) low-caste Sudra Hindus i thought that they (along with the Charmas) would be the first to bury caste labels, yet these two groups (Mostly from Doaba and Malwa) are the most caste-conscious among Sikhs. Because of them there are such things as "Gurdwara Singh Sabha", "Gurdwara Ravidas", "Gurdwara Ramgharia" which have committees based on caste.

Whats funny is that in the West (and also in Doaba, Malwa) Jatts consider themselves as 'high-caste' and boycott Gurdwaras, functions etc organized by Charmars/Tharkans whatever and they also discriminate and exploit them, but then they have the audacity to form groups like "All India Jat Mahasabha' which goes around begging for jobs and other reservations because they claim that Jats are a downtrodden, backwards and scheduled caste!

This total madness and hypocrisy or what? Some people just are disturbed and sick in the head. I hope i havent offended anyone but thats the sorry truth. You can bash Rajput/Khatri castes for all i care because they mean nothing to me and my family anymore.

Ps, why are there so many '