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Name: rajeev -
E-mail: fakeemail@donotspam.com
Comments:   sajeed veer jee..
song post karan da boht shukriya.. te janaab, jae tusi budaapae wich kadam rakh leyaa tae asi taan fer baba adam haigain haan samjho... ha ha ha

in the tappa i could only understand the following.. "bhul jaa ve sada dukh ve,
tusi karam kare rab saaiyaan ??"
does not make much sense though... any explanations?? by the way, most or all of the tappas are attributed to one "Shourie Mian" and his name appears in the tappa somewhere..

sat sri akal


Name: Akhilesh -
E-mail: HiTMaN9497@aol.com
My URL: http://www.lokpunjab.com/
Location: ,      Europe
Comments:   Punjabis get together for Mela fun
by EMANUEL SARFRAZ

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/nationplus/feb-2004/20/page3.htm

Punjabis from all over the world are gathering at Punjab Lok Boli Mela being held at the small town of Depalpur to participate in what is being considered as one of the biggest Melas. The event, which began on February 17, has been organised by Punjab Lok Rahs. The Mela will end on February 22.

Thirty guests arrived by train from India on Thursday evening. These included playwrights Dr Atamjeet Singh and Dr Ravinder Rattan, researcher folk literature Dr Nahar Singh, poets Neel Kamal and Rati Kant, Dilbagh Singh, Amrita Sewak, Satya Nand Sewak and Ashwani Chatley from Ludhiana Kala Manch, Jaswinder Singh and Dhanwant Kaur from Patiyala University. The 18-member academia and cultural troupe of Guru Nanak Dev University, Amritsar includes Surinder Pal Singh, Jagjit Kaur, Safinder Singh, Dharam Singh, Sukhdev Singh Khahra, Kawaljit Kaur and Jagjit Kaur.

A spokesman of Lok Rahs while talking to The Nation Plus at the Railway Station on Thursday before the arrival of guests from India "Lok Rahs is trying to revive the Mela tradition. There were more than 15,000 participants in the first two days. The guests are still arriving and the number is likely to swell. We have housed the guests in the hostels of the two colleges there and in the open space nearby.

The participation from the villages nearby is very encouraging. February 17 was declared the local holiday in Depalpur that is schools and colleges were closed. 250 poets are taking part in the Mushairas. The last Mushaira would be held on 21st. Kabbadi events were held on 17th and 18th. One event would be held on 20th."

Reportedly seven members of a Patiala theatre group arrived through Wagah on Wednesday. A 5-member delegation led by Jatinder Pal Singh has arrived from Canada while Varinder Singh Kalra is leading a 3-member delegation of Manchester University. The spokesman said that 300 people from India had applied for visa to attend the Mela. "Only 40 people could get visa to attend the Mela which is being held to coincide with the International Mother Language Day on February 21."

He said we have tried to create the environment of traditional melas. "There are nearly 100 stalls selling traditional foods, handicrafts and clothes. 'Kahani Durbar' in which participants are told folk stories in the typical old style of Punjab is very popular. The 'Gawan' that is singing of folk songs daily in the evenings is also very popular."

The Mela is a kath (gathering) of people from all walks of life. Prominent intellectuals and educationists will deliberate on the issues related to Punjabi language. The six topics are 'Diversity issues', 'Language and politics', Language and education', 'Script issues', 'Language and identity' and 'Language and globalization'.

Cyclists to pedal from Lahore to Delhi
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040220/cth3.htm#3


Name: Sajid Chaudhry -
E-mail: sajid@brain.com.pk
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Location: sahiwal, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Ohoooooo ... Rabb tuhaDa bhala karay Rajeev jee yaad karwa ditta ay. Muaaf karna yaar main te bhul e gya si.BuDhi umray inj ho e jaaNda ay yaar.Tusi yaad karwa dyaa karo... Lo jee fer sunoo Girgia Devi di awaz vich aik pakka raag Rajeev jee di fermaish te...
Girgia Devi
Veer jee doNvaiN fermaishaaN ikko post vich pooriaN ho gaiyaaN...te Sardarz jee gall rakhan da bohat shukria...


Name: rajeev -
E-mail: fakeemail@donotspam.com
Comments:   sajid veer jee..

jae maukaa lagge taan, girija devi da tappa post kar deo... i emailed it to you as a real audio file, i hope that you got it all right..
rab rakha


Name: Sardarz -
E-mail: Sradraz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Sajid Chaudhry Ji,

Tuhada hukum sir mathae te,Lao aapaN JOKES di tradition eithe hi Khatam kiti.
Par Janab tuhanu tuhadi chalayi hoi tradtion shuru karni payegi..
That of posting a "new/unlisted" song at end of your posts ;-)

Regards.


Name: gursharan singh -
E-mail: gsinghh@yahoo.com
Location: reston, va     USA
Comments:   B.L.Garg

A very interesting subject to work on. I think if you ever go to ludhiana try to go to"BHADOUR HOUSE" there you will find lots of old punjabi movies on VCD's on them you might find your needed information. GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR HUNT

Rupe

you will be missed... please do come back "Jadon V Dil Karey" Silently or by your writings


Name: Sajid Chaudhry -
E-mail: sajid@brain.com.pk
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Location: Sahiwal, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Mairay sohnay veer Saeed jee ...maiN te janab gall ossay din e muka ditti si tusi oss din di post vekho te main tuhaDi post de jawab vich jo likhya si oh fer quote ker daina tusi aap vi oss din wali post tay jhaati paa laina merey lafaz see keh "Jay aihday naal tuhaDa dil dukhya hai te janab maiN maa'zrat kerna te aggay toN mohtaat rahwaN ga."
aihday vicho aik lafaz ghat ay jehra mistake naal likhya gya si jay oh vi likh diaaN te tehreer aih si "Jay tuhanoo aihday naal tuhaDa dil dukhya hai te janab maiN maa'zrat kerna te aggay toN mohtaat rahwaN ga."
Jay hajay vi tusi samajhday o baee menoo hajay vi apni galti mannan di loR hai te janab main aik waari fair ohna saaray sajjna kolon apni ghalti di muaafi chohna tay khaas kar kay Saeed jee tuhaDay koloN jehna da dil dukhaya maiN.Ho sakay tay Muaaf kar diyo maiN rabb kol jawab dain laggyaaN zara soukha ho jaawaN ga.......


Name: Saeed -
E-mail: saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   sajnaaN neyN phul maariyaa....

Sajid, eh gal ajey othey dee othey ee ey. guR kaNdh te laa ke vee tooN ajey teek apni ghaltee naheeN manee ey ke ey site (www.apnaorg.com) Punjabi de wadhaa laee ey yaa Faiz dee Urdu shaery nooN aam karan laee ey. meyree eynee jahee galh te eynaaN bhRkan dee kee loR see ke Faiz dee Urdu shaeree de laee Urdu diyaaN be-shumaar sites neyN. eynee jaee galh krodh kistraaN baN* gaee. menoo es gal daa dukh hoyaa ey ke Dr. Zaki neyN apnee os mail te sharmiNdgee daa izhaar naheeN keetaa. meyree Sufi BabiyaaN de laee seyvaa nooN koee boht ee neech te GhaTiyaa Punjabi boli da dushman vee buraa naheeN aakhdaa te eyh galh Dr. Zaki ne kisraaN eynee asaanee naal keh ditee. ik saal te do maheeney wich 25,000 to wadh kitaabaaN (tin sufi babiyaaN barey) lokaaN de gharaaN teek pohNch chukiyaaN han. meyN tuhaaDey kisey toN shaawaa naheeN maNgdaa par kisey nooN zaleel karan dee vee ijaazat naheeN de sakdaa. fer Zaki jeyhaa paRhyaa likhyaa baNdaa eh gal karey taaN eh had ee ho gaee. menoo es gal daa boht afsos hoyaa ey te ajey teek ey. Sajid te Faiz dee Urdu shaeree dee hamayt wich te ohdee shaeree da sawaad leyn utey Zaki horaaN neyN meyrey utey bilaa-wajaa e post keetee. menu taaN ohnaaN dee eys khaar te khuNdak dee wajhaa ajey teek samajh naheeN aaee. meyN taaN eh samjhiyaa see ke oh DihDoN Punjabi neyN te punjabiat de masley nooN chaNgee taraaN samjhdey neyN. meyree vee ey pichhley kaee saalaaN dee study ey ke Punjabi boli nooN jehnaaN jehnaaN corners (koniyaaN) choN waDaa nuqsaan hoyaa, ohnaaN choN sabh toN wadh nuqsaan ohnaaN PunjabiyaaN ney apRaayaa jo apni maaN boli nooN chhaD ke Urdu dee seyvaa wich rujhey rahey te baRey fakhar de naal inaam laiNdey rahey. apnee zaat de dairey wich ee ghumdey rahey.


Name: Shahid -
E-mail: mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:   meree ikk Panjabi ghazal day kujh shair:

jaan moseebat aan phasee kiNj laNghdaee saal maheena dass
himmat nahiN rahee jaran zara hun sabar piyala peena dass

nakhreyaN nazaN thahr na dhoee maan taran doreDee baat
dabb khaRabbiyaN TakiyaN raNg kay neela chola seena dass

wakhh ho paar gayoN tay chakar chareN doojiyaaN maNgoo maal
mehnat teree mahal paraey kis kamm khoon paseena dass

bharr bharr zehar piyalay peevay qadam qadam tay jhakay mot
Bulheya kahiN 'asaaN marna nahiN' Shahid nuN vee jeena dass


Name: Sajid Chaudhry -
E-mail: sajid@brain.com.pk
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Location: Sahiwal, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Sajjno
Gall kisay hor paasay Tur paee ay te mera khayaal ay baee aih changi gall nahiN ay.Saaray sajjan zara hoslay te sabar naal kam lavo te ais "JOKS TRADITION" nooN aithay e mukaa diyo tay changi gal ay.aggay jivaiaN tuhaDi merzi.Dukh hoya vekh kay....


Name: Shahid -
E-mail: mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Borrowing words

If one can do without, borrowing is never a good idea. Of course what we may already have and put it in an 'aalay' and not use is worse. Examples of English 'adopting' words from other languages and hence enriching is good one. It had to if it were to exploit the riches of its conquered lands 'amicably'. Well, look at Spanish. How much Arabic penetrated into it? That puts Panjabi and Urdu in the same league; extensively 'borrowing/adopting' from Arabic (besides other languages).

Socially cut off regions will drift apart and develop their own linguistic and cultural base compatible with their social needs; be those parts of the Panjab. Social and cultural interactions even between and among complete aliens become conduits of two-way exchange of ideas, words, and more; and often bridge gaps among cultures have some similarity, as in the Panjabs. I think borrowing words in vacuume is a futile effort.

All one need to look at is what happened in and to Panjabi and Panjab, not only during just recent past, but going back thousands of years. 'Panjabi' has enriched and Panjabis have either helped in creating or created other 'official' languages, partly because, with few exceptions, Panjabi stayed spoken language of the conquered. Along the way Panjabi enriched itself too by adopting from where ever and whenever it made sense. I believe this process will never stop simply due to the natural course of human interactions for a variety of reasons. And this process is not 'language-specific'.


Name: Mohammed Sagier -
E-mail: sagierm@yahoo.co.uk
Location: brum,      UK
Comments:   Namaste/Salaam Alaikum/Sat sri akal!

Sajno, I am amazed by what a great resource this site is for all things Panjabi. Congratulations to Safir Rammah Ji and all others involved for such a sterling effort.

Born in Punjab but spending most of my life here in the UK this site is the first time I have come across the gems of Panjabi literature- I am bowled over by the likes of Bulleh Shah but especially Sheikh Farid. If it is not too much trouble could I be pointed to more resources on Sheikh Farid, especially books about his life and works- doesn't matter whether in Gurmukhi, Shahmukhi, Urdu, English (or even- though unlikely, German, French or Arabic- if I sound desperate, I am!)

Rab Rakha Sagier


Name: B R Garg -
E-mail: gargbhimraj@yahoo.com
Location: chandigarh, UT     India
Comments:   I plan to bring out "History of Punjabi Cinema". Will any one can supply information about early punjabi films produced in Lahore and Calcutta? I have a lot of material on punjabi films including brochures issued by the film companies at that time. Any old-timer having information relating to Ishkepunjab (1935), Heersayal (1938), Sassipunnu (1939), Sohnikumaharan (1939), Sohnimahiwal (1939), Surdas (1939), Merapunjab (1940), Chambedikali (1941), Ravipaar (1942), Nikhettu (1943), Gulbaloh (1944), Kamli (1946), Lachhi (1949), Chhai (1950), Mutiyaar (1950), Balo (1951), Phooman (1951), Laralappa (1953), Ashtalli (1954), Nikki (1958), HEERSAYAL (1960), Jatti (1961), Chanmahi (1962), Chhadian di doli (1963), Chhaon (1967), Peengan (1979), Santo (1979), Husan de hulare (1987), Jatt walaity (1991), Pagri sambhal jatta (1992), Udeekan saun dian (1992), SOORMA BHAGAT (1993). The kind cooperation is soliciated.


Name: sardarz -
E-mail: sardarz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Rupe
Its been a pleasure to read your posts and have you as a active contributor to this forum for a long time....you and your work will be missed here..take care of your personal responsibilities and hope you return soon.

Goodluck


Name: Tayyab -
E-mail: zan_ali34@hotmail.com
My URL:
Comments:   Rajeev ji te Prem ji
I brougt up this whole issue because when I learnt Gurmukhi and read a few books I could not understand all of it due to to all the Hindi words used. Don't you see? Why do we have two words for prime mininster in Punjabi? Why is one only used in East Punjab and one only in W Punjab? Why can't we understand each other? The words used for prime mininster, elections and politics in East Punjab are not understood in West Punjab and vice versa. Why not? I just want a solution to this problem.
Maybe what we could do is to take the word for prime miniter from hindi and politics from urdu and not use the word for prime minister in Urdu and politics in Hindi.
Or we could learn both (Urdu and Hindi) words for prime minister. That way we could understand each other.
Have any of you ever listend to West Punjabi newsbroadcast on PTV (pakistan television). Do you understand every word?
I certainly don't understand all the words when I listen to Punjabi news from East Punjab.


Name: Javed Zaki -
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Location: East Lansing, Mi     USA
Comments:   Zubair Ji te Nasreen Ji. Sat bismillah. Eh PanjabiyaaN da paNDhaar je, jam jam aao te hissa paao.
Dam dam Ali Ali.

Javed Zaki


Name: Prem -
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Comments:   Rajeev Jee:

Again you beat me. I was writing at the same time and you posted it before me so I did not respond to your excellent example. Well said. I made the same point a few days earlier that evolving language always flourishes and non-evolving goes by wayside. Using pyjama did not pollute English.


Name: rajeev -
E-mail: fakeemail@donotspam.com
Comments:   kahlon jee te tayyab jee

tangential to our discussion (or perhaps related, you decide..) i wanted to share the following facts about english... i always wonder how a phonetically and grammatically superfluous languages such as english/french managed to outsmart all... first, an excerpt from http://www.languageinindia.com/april2002/tesolbook.html

"An important characteristic of English has been its receptivity to loan words from other languages. No other language exhibits such an extraordinary receptivity. This has not resulted, however, in the loss of corresponding native words in most cases.

Moreover, English speakers always enjoyed greater freedom in the use of their language, unlike, for instance, the users of the French language. There has been no legal provision which guided the native speakers of English in the use or non-use of words. Mostly the commonly agreed conventions, rather than deliberate enforcement of rules of usage through academies, marked the development of English and its use. Modern, current English has over 500,000 words. If we add the scientific terms used in the language, the total would be very high indeed. It has been estimated that only 18.4 percent of these words is native to English. French vocabulary used in English is around 32.4 percent, whereas the words of Latin origin is estimated to be 14.4 percent, words of Greek origin around 12.5 percent, and other languages 23.3 percent. This does not mean that the words of foreign origin are more greatly used in English. It only suggests that more foreign words than the native ones are used to characterize, define, and describe meanings and ideas in English (Encyclopedia Britannica)."

may be apna sajjans can throw some light on the above quoted..

english prospers even after being a non-native speaker's nightmare.. "should" with l silent, "tough" is tuff and "plough" is plow etc. etc.. i wonder...

sat sri akal


Name: Prem -
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Comments:   Tayyab Jee:

Je "prapat" Punjabi nahiN taN "hasal' vi Punjabi nahin. I think East/West difference is over blown. Ambarsaree and Lahori speak (I mean real spoken Punjabi) similar Punjabi than Lahori and Jhangee. I don't mean just the dialect but words that are borrowed from Urdu. Lahoria from Lahore speak Punjabi with lot more Urdu words compared to Patialvi who uses very few Hindi words(almost zero). Rural People will use Punjabi with very few Hindi/Urdu words than urban folks. It is my considered opinion that East Punjabi has less influence of Hindi than West Punjabi's language that has lot of influence of Urdu.

My point was "Junaid" a full blooded real Lahori Punjabi speaks like me but his wife speaks like UP wala. So tell Junaid that borrow Spanish word and not Urdu that too UP wala Urdu. Nazmi's parents probabably came from UP. Ramesh is a real Punjabee guy married to Rani and she speaks Hindi. Saying that we should borrow from Spanish and not from HIndi/Urdu if we have to is divisive and couter to our mission. They are more of them but that does not mean we should adopt their language. Hostility to Urdu particularly will harm Punjabi cause. East Punjabi is not in danger of being obsobed by Hindi. Urdu did not absorb Punjabi before partition .

Personally I honestly believe that I don't have very different opinions on this subject than you.. Remember I said spoken language and not of so called literate people who use Hindi or Urdu words to identify themselves as literate. Sorry by being redundent


Name: rajeev -
E-mail: fakeemail@donotspam.com
Comments:   tayyab veer jee.. once again, i am in complete agreement with the central issue that you have addressed (about the inability to understand urduized/hindized punjabi by E and W Punjabis).. but i find myself in disagreement to the solution that you are suggesting...

the solution, as floated around in this forum, is controlling the undigested intake of urdu/hindi idiom when NONE is required... the seminal problem, in my humble opinion, is not borrowing -- it is NOT UTILIZING what we have.. as an example, sameer bhajee's brief and elegant exposition on atomic structure was in punjabi and used some english nomenclature.. it is totally acceptable.. i dont think there is a pressing need to call electron a "bijlee da daana" or its spanish counterpart..

now lets come to spanish/french versus hindi/urdu..
tayyab veer jee, if we use hindi/urdu it is a WIN-LOSE situation because one side of punjab finds it useful and other side has a difficult time.. but if we start using french/spanish it will be a LOSE-LOSE situation..
punjabi has close ties to hindi and urdu.. our gurus have composed and preached in hindi-dialects, our sufis have blessed us with many urdu words, which are OURS now.. they are mucho :-) closer to us than spanish/french..

so i think that borrowing from urdu/punjabi is not what is hurting us, it is the undigested, indiscriminate gluttony of hindi/urdu caused by political-religious bias that is hurting us.. otherwise, don't we revel in urdu-heavy poetry of baba bulley shah, baba farid, sultan bahu etc. as much as we are inspired by the hindi-heavy bani (literally speech) of the gurus..

bhul chuk muaaf karna, tayyab veer jee.. this is just my opinion.. by the way praapat means to get/to achieve etc..


Name: Tayyab -
E-mail: zan_ali34@hotmail.com
My URL:
Comments:   Rajeev Ji te P S Kahlon Ji
Bura na manana par here is what I have to say.
What I'm trying to get at it is that W punjabis don't understand E Punjabi newsbroadcasts because they use too many Hindi words and E Punjabis can't understand W Punjabi Newsbroadcasts because we use too manny Urdu Words. For exapmle: rajeev jee, in your post to khalon jee you used the Hindi word "prapat". I don't know what that means because it is a Hindi word and I don't know Hindi. Similarly W punjabis use Urdu words whcih E Punjbais are unable to understand.

I suggested borrowing from Spanish because Punjabi and Spanish are close in their grammtical structures and also are not far away in their pronounciation. If we borrowed from Spanish then BOTH of us(East and West Punjabis can understand each other).But we won't understand each other if E Punjabis kept using Hindi words and W Punjabis Urdu words. Unless we take some words from Urdu and some from Hindi and we BOTH use them. In W Punjab instead of saying boli we use the word "zuban" and in E Punjab they say "bhasha". We don't understand each other this way. About the boli changing every 12 koss, well, that is the dialect and not the language. In American English they say sidewalk and in British English footpath and so on. Same in Punjabi, in our dialect we say jaa for place and in other dialects it is thaan. But we can understand each other, with Hind/Urdu words we don't.
Once again I hope you don't mind.
please tell me what you think.


Name: P S Kahlon -
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Comments:   Rajeev Veer Jee:

There was nothing important. I was trying to say same thing. We share culture,religion,blood and we intermary for peace sake with those who may speak Hind/Urdu. We want to go to spanish and not use words from Hindi/Urdu that most Punjabi speaking use in their daily lives. Like others I don't like newspersons using language that most people don't use in their daily lives to make it "high" Punjabi or something. I think too much is made for various dialects in Punjabi. Every language has a variation from place to place. As they say boli changes every 12 Koss and that is not just Punjabi.


Name: Muji -
E-mail: speak@matteela.com
My URL: http://www.matteela.com
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   sare sajna noon hello. assen kuj bailee mil ke kuj kam shroo karn da aaher keeta aye. sadi website te aao te sada maan wadhao.


Name: zubair Rana -
E-mail: zubairranas@hotmail.com
Location: Lahore, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Dears I think some of you know that I have writing in a newspaper Daily Jang Lahore for 18 years and my life partener Nasreen Anjum Bhatti,a Punjabi,Urdu poet lady had been producing music in Pakistan Broadcasting Corporation for about 20 years. We are inspired to join you. Both of us are Marxists and our Guroo is Najam Hussain Sayyed. You are champions for us. We will be emailing you our writings if you allow us. Witing for your response. Yours APNA Zubair Rana


Name: rajeev -
E-mail: fakeemail@donotspam.com
Comments:   kahlon veer jee

inj naa karo veer jee.. tuhaadae "post" naal asi wee kuj gian prapat karaangae.. bhaanve main kuj keh chaddaya jae, par tusi vee mehrbaani karkae apne vichaar (khayal) jaroor likho..
waiting for your response..
sat sri akal


Name: P S Kahlon -
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Comments:   Rajeev Jee:

I had written a lomg response to Tayyab Jee but you beat me to it and you said in a much better way. Thanks and I just say ditto to Rajeev.

Sardarz Jee:

That was not funny for me. I have heard too much of that already. I can take jokes but---


Name: rajeev -
E-mail: fakeemail@donotspam.com
Comments:   tayyab veer jee..

i do agree with you that we should use punjabi words whenever we can.. and we are definitely underutilizing punjabi vocabulary at present.. efforts like sameer bhajee's can make a real difference in a short span of time..

but i disagree with your proposal of borrowing from spanish, french etc... if borrowing is an issue at all, it should be hindi and urdu at the forefront because of obvious phonetic and syntactic similarities... religious and political agenda apart, hindi/urdu can be certainly be "utilized".. turning to "goraa sahibs" for even our maa-boli seems far-fetched, especially when we have much more viable alternatives at our disposal..

that is just my opinion, bhul-chuk muaaf karna..
sat sri akal


Name: rupe -
E-mail: rupe@panindia.com
Location: London,      Uk
Comments:   dear Apna, I have to concentrate on my family and wrok life now. So please can you guys look into spanish and other words related to lifeforms ( jeev) that don't exist in Punjabi and carry on my work and present ideas to world punjabi forum? As My faily needs me to concentrate on emplyoment and home matters it may be years before I return to Punjabi language. Love and Good luck rupe


Name: Tayyab -
E-mail: zan_ali34@hotmail.com
My URL:
Comments:   Sameer Ji
I absolutely agree with you. We can make good use of Punjabi vocabulary without borrowing from Urdu/Hindi. If we borrowed from Hindi/Urdu too much Punjabi will sound like Urdu in W Punjab and Hindi in E punjab. We shoud ALWAYS use Punjabi vocabulary and where we can't we should borrow form other languages like Spanish, French and Russian. I've read that Punjabi is very similar to Spanish, French and especially Russian. That's probably why Rupe Ji took a lot of the words from Spanish.
I also think it'd be a good idea to publish heaps of books about a range of different subjects. When there will be stuff available in Punjabi in modern fields then it would be easier for Punjabis to understand it, then the hard Urdu vocabularly, as you demonstrated by explaining the atom theory. That way even an illiterate can understand.
By the way, does anybody know whether the Harry Potter books have been translated in to Punjabi? I think they've been translated into about 48 languages. Punjabi should be one of'em.


Name: Javed Zaki -
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Rajeev Ji. Bohat bohat shukriya.

Sajno. Aakhari baNd nuN iNj paRhya jaae

PaNj daryavaaN da Rub waali
Wass di rawwe thaan thaan haryaali
Jeeve SaNdal bar

Javed Zaki


Name: rajeev -
E-mail: fakeemail@donotspam.com
Comments:   boht vadhiyaa javed saab..


Name: Javed Zaki -
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Saare sajnaaN nuN 'Basant Rutt' diyaaN wadhaayaaN. Ik navaaN 'Geet' haazar e.

....(Basant Rutt).....

Aaaee e basant bahaar
Rutt raNgli saDa mann madhraae
AkhiyaaN aNt khomaar

NeeliyaaN peeliyaaN, uD-diyaaN guDDiyaaN
AlhaR HeeraaN, paawan luDiyaaN
Akhiyaan chhalke piyaar
....Aaee e basant bahaar

TitliyaaN nachdiyaaN phhir-diyaaN, thaaN thaaN
Sat raNggi e phhullaaN di chhaaN
Jharne goan malhaar
....Aaee e basant bahaar

Naazak juTTiyaaN mast phhareNdiyaaN
Bhar bhar bukkaaN, husan loTeNdiyaaN
GabhrooaaN de mann Thhaar
....Aaee e basant bahaar

kosi kosi dhupp di chaadar
Nighee, maaN di bukkal waNgar
Tan-mann chen qaraar
....Aaee e basant bahaar

Mann vich maile sajj-de rehNde
Ochi ochi wajj-de rehNde
DholaaN de khaRkaar
....Aaee e basant bahaar

PanjaaN nadiyaaN da Rub waali
Wass di rawwe, thaan thaaN haryaali
Jeeve saaNdal bar
....Aaee e basant bahaar

Javed Zaki


Name: Akhilesh -
E-mail: HiTMaN9497@aol.com
My URL: http://www.lokpunjab.com/
Location: ,      Europe
Comments:   Just wishing everyone a happy Basant season!

Also like to share this article:

A rendezvous with writers in Pakistan
From the margins of 9th World Punjabi Conference
by Kamlesh Mohan

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040217/edit.htm#7


Name: Sameer -
E-mail: sameer123@hotmail.com
Comments:  
Tayyab Ji: I am no expert on Panjabi or any other language or linhistics but I feel than Panjabi language has couple of unique charcteristics which can be used to the great advantage of Panjabi speaking for their advancement, and improving literacy level by teaching modern sciece and tchnology basics in Panjabi. One is that speaking and written Panjabi are in lateral relationship meaning that very little differentiates between Panjabi vernacular and written Panjabi. This might be attributable to smaller vocabulary but who needs vocabulary when it is of no use in vernacular as the case is with Urdu. The vocabulary created by all the classical and modern Urdu poets did not make it to the spoken language and basically is useless extension or even a turn-off for average person who does not have extensive vocabulary. In Panjabi the written is understandable to most unless one goes into Sufi ma'arfat in the poetry which average Panjabi reader does not think when reading or listening to Sufi poetry.

The second advantage is sweetness and entertaining which got into Panjabi due to the extrovert nature of Panjabis and panjabi lifestyle of villages. A boring topic can be made entertaining and attractive using jokes and attractive phraseology without ridiculing the language as I did with the propoerties of electron. It is very easy and I am surprised this Panjabi forte is not used by Panjabis to educate Panjabis into modern science basics and help literacy as well as advancement. Using this entertaining style can be used with new topic 365 days of year, new topic every day and this will help to keep the mullahs away from overtaking Panjabi language and saying religious stories repetatively. I mean electron is just one topic, think of properties of water, basic hugience, physiology, nervous system, air, fire, preventive care, engineering, mathematics, solar system, evolution, properties of light and on and on....I bet three college level science teachers can sit together and pick 365 topics easily for 365 days and write a daily column in entertaining panjabi format. No need to create new vocabulary for scientific terms. If I had interest and time, I would have easily written 100 of them using speaking Panjabi with entertaining phrases. All one need is to look at any science book about the topic and translate the summary while listening to Panjabi music or chatting with couple of other panjabis.

The low vocabulary and entertaining propoerties are also good barrier for Panjabi not to fall in the hands of mullahs who like Arabic and Persian words in their writings and speeches.


Name: Tayyab -
E-mail: zan_ali34@hotmail.com
My URL:
Comments:   Punjabi is a unique language among the Indo-Iranian languages bcause it has tones. No other Indo-Iranian language has tones.
I've read that tones in Punjabi devoloped just two or three hundred years ago that is why they are not represented in the Gurmukhi alphabet. Is that true?
Another very interesting thing I've read is that when the Gurmukhi alphabet was invented all Punjabi dialects had the sounds bh (in bhara)and jh (in jhoota) but then they got dropped out in central Punjab and got replaced with p with a high tone for bh and ch with a high tone for jh. That is why there is a letter for bh in bhara and jh in jhoota in Gurmukhi. This sound change only happened in central punjab but not in western Punjab. We say bhara and not para with a high tone and jhoota(like in Hindi/Urdu) and not choota with a high tone.


Name: Sajid Chaudhry -
E-mail: sajid@brain.com.pk
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Location: Sahiwal, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Tayyab Bhaa Jee janab "offended" wali koi nahiN ay maiN te apni salah ditti si baaqi jivaiN yaraaN di merzi aapaN te haazir aaN.Gall e koi nahiN......
Lo jee sajjno tayyar ho jaao Dulla Bhatti vi aa rehya ay chaitee he site tay.....O nahiN Jagjit Nousheharvi Urf Dulla Bhatti veer jee tuhaDi gal nahiN kar rehya main oss Dulla Bhatti di gall ker rehya haaN jehRa tusi Siddique te Shreef Raagi di awaz vich suno gey...vekho kadoN Rammah jee sunaoNday ne tuhanoo.... :)


Name: billu bawa -
E-mail: bawabillu@yahoo.com
Location: los angeles, ca     USA
Comments:   "s" valeo "b" vale bande ve ghat nahi,bhanve jiada hi hon, jadon sare "bhajee" gine jan ,sare panjabi sarean de bhajee he honde han(patiale waleo tusee vee shamal ho.."baeejee".is layee "b" chokhe ne,gin lo sare bhajian no,bhanve sare "billu" varge navan no na ginea.sab ton vade gal a ke sare majhaban de ae bande ne.maf karna ae meri phalee email da vartana hega kese noo vee .te bari khushee he ke ae APNA bhajian no ja rahi he.


Name: Sukhbir Garewal -
E-mail: sugrewal@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Query Was wondering if I could access any information regarding one Dinnah Qawwal who I understand was a rage before Mubarik Ali Fateh Ali hit the scene.

Also if anybody had any information about Mubarik Ali Fateh Ali's Ki JanNa teri khudaai Also a legendary sufi singer from Jullundur Ustad Abdul Karim Baksh who is believed to have given up singing altogether for he wouldn't feel like singing anything other than MaiNnu RaNjha hardam deeNhda and went into unending bairag and a state of laamakaani

Regards

Sukhbir


Name: Tayyab -
E-mail: zan_ali34@hotmail.com
My URL:
Comments:   Rajeev jee, boht shukriya. It helped..

Sajid Sahib: I'm sorry if I've offended you or something but all I meant was that everybody who called themselves Punjabi could be represented on this site as it is neutral and the minorties not left out for new paragraph use

for new line use
to make something bold use to add a space use   Sajid Sahib


Name: Akhilesh -
E-mail: HiTMaN9497@aol.com
My URL: http://www.lokpunjab.com/
Location: ,      Europe
Comments:   Some good news from East Punjab:

Punjab CM inagugurates Patiala Heritage crafts mela:
http://www.punjabgov.net/news.asp?fol_name=press1\15 Feb 04&file_name=press112&p_title=News :: Press Releases


Name: Akhilesh -
E-mail: HiTMaN9497@aol.com
My URL: http://www.lokpunjab.com/
Location: ,      Europe
Comments:   (Sorry, submitted twice, please delete entry below this one)

Writers, scholars to discuss future of Punjabi
All set for ‘Punjabi Boli Mela’ in Okara from Feb 17

by Sarbjit Dhaliwal
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040214/edit.htm#7


The Punjabi alphabet in Gurmukhi (above) and in the Shahmukhi script (below) as written in West Punjab, Pakistan

PUNJABI is a language spoken by about 11 crore people all over the world. The largest Punjabi-speaking population — about eight crore — is in West Punjab (Pakistan) followed by East Punjab in India. Punjabi immigrants have taken this language to the UK, the US, Canada and other countries. The UN has also recognised it as one of the major languages of the world.

In East Punjab, people have struggled hard to make it the official language. Recently, the West Punjab Chief Minister, Mr Prevaiz Elahi, announced the introduction of Punjabi in primary schools as a compulsory subject and in post-graduation classes in colleges shortly thereafter. But Punjabis in West Punjab are yet to go a long way to achieve more on this front. Not Punjabi, but Urdu is the official language of West Punjab.

However, in East Punjab a lot has been done to promote Punjabi in the past 50 years. A law has been passed, declaring it as the official language, though whether in practice it has become so is debateable.

Now globalisation is emerging as a serious threat to various local cultures and languages. The English language is spreading its domination through globalisation. Its onslaught has made Punjabi social scientists and linguistics, writers and poets to sit up. The increasing use of information technology is causing an immense damage to local languages. Writers and others concerned feel that English imperialism is staging a comeback by subduing various cultures and languages through globalisation and satellite channels.

Talwinder Singh, a writer from Amritsar, who is coordinating in India for the meet, says “globalisation is eating away everything from the independence of states to the existence of languages”. People around the world have formed organisations and devised strategies to fight back the negative effects of this economic onslaught on cultures and languages of various communities of the world.

However, people in East and West Punjab have not built up any credible movement of resistance against this new colonialism. In fact, there are people who have become collaborators, obviously at the cost of their own language and culture in both Punjabs, to further the interests of the new colonialism. An inferiority complex is being instilled among those who are not fluent in English, that is fast becoming the language of business, trade and industry. English is being thrust upon people through the new system of governance, administration and education infrastructure even in the countryside.

To dwell on these issues, which have been exercising the minds of Punjabi scholars in East Punjab as well as West Punjab, eminent Punjabi scholars from both India and Pakistan will gather for six days, starting from February 17, at Depalpur in Okara district of West Punjab. The get-together has been named as the Punjabi Boli Mela. A far away place from Lahore, Depalpur has been selected to break the monopoly of hosting such events in big cities.

An important question that will be discussed at the mela is whether both Punjabs speak different shades of the same language or are these two different languages. How can one differentiate between diversity within a language and different languages. Is this historical, linguistic or political question? What is the role of the language in the power-politics of the subcontinent? Why did the colonial rulers treat various local languages differently? For example, the treatment of Punjabi and Sindhi. What is the politics of language in Pakistan? This question is also relevant in the case of East Punjab, where the issue of the Punjabi language has witnessed several struggles in the past.

The most significant issue that will be debated at the meet is how can the scriptural divide between Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi be bridged? What is the importance of the mother tongue as a medium of instruction? Why do Punjabis hesitate to identify themselves with their mother tongue? What is the class politics of languages?

Gurmukhi is the script that is used to write Punjabi in East Punjab while Shahmukhi serves the same purpose in West Punjab. Though both scripts are used to write Punjabi, but those living in East Punjab cannot read Punjabi literature of West Punjab and vice versa. Efforts had been made earlier to find a solution to this problem, but in vain. As relations have started improving between the two countries, scholars have started focusing more now on this issue for having a better understanding of what is being produced in both countries as Punjabi literature.

In this context, Prof Bhushan, an eminent satirist, recalled Rabindranath Tagore’s advice to a Punjabi writer. Balraj Sahni, who wrote a poem in English, approached Gurudev to show it to him. “ What is your mother tongue?” was the counter question from Gurudev. “ Punjabi”. “Then go and write in your mother tongue”, said Gurudev. It is difficult to write poetry in Punjabi, said Sahni. Gurdev asked him “ If Guru Nanak Dev could produce such a wonderful ‘Gurbani’ in Punjabi, why can’t you write poetry in it? Gurudev gave similar advice to Balwant Gargi, who had requested him to write the forward of a book.

Rasool Hamjatove, whose famous book “Mera Dagistan” has been translated into several languages and is widely read, has stated in the book that in his native state Dagistan, when one wants to decry someone, he says “ Ja tun apni maan boli bhuljen” ( You may forget your mother tongue). They are so proud of their mother tongue.

Of course, people have made supreme sacrifices to save their mother tongue in Punjab also. But the way the English language is elbowing out Punjabi from the mainstream, the future of Punjabi seems to be bleak.


Name: Akhilesh -
E-mail: HiTMaN9497@aol.com
My URL: http://www.lokpunjab.com/
Location: ,      Europe
Comments:   Writers, scholars to discuss future of Punjabi
All set for ‘Punjabi Boli Mela’ in Okara from Feb 17

by Sarbjit Dhaliwal
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040214/edit.htm#7


The Punjabi alphabet in Gurmukhi (above) and in the Shahmukhi script (below) as written in West Punjab, Pakistan

PUNJABI is a language spoken by about 11 crore people all over the world. The largest Punjabi-speaking population — about eight crore — is in West Punjab (Pakistan) followed by East Punjab in India. Punjabi immigrants have taken this language to the UK, the US, Canada and other countries. The UN has also recognised it as one of the major languages of the world.

In East Punjab, people have struggled hard to make it the official language. Recently, the West Punjab Chief Minister, Mr Prevaiz Elahi, announced the introduction of Punjabi in primary schools as a compulsory subject and in post-graduation classes in colleges shortly thereafter. But Punjabis in West Punjab are yet to go a long way to achieve more on this front. Not Punjabi, but Urdu is the official language of West Punjab.

However, in East Punjab a lot has been done to promote Punjabi in the past 50 years. A law has been passed, declaring it as the official language, though whether in practice it has become so is debateable.

Now globalisation is emerging as a serious threat to various local cultures and languages. The English language is spreading its domination through globalisation. Its onslaught has made Punjabi social scientists and linguistics, writers and poets to sit up. The increasing use of information technology is causing an immense damage to local languages. Writers and others concerned feel that English imperialism is staging a comeback by subduing various cultures and languages through globalisation and satellite channels.

Talwinder Singh, a writer from Amritsar, who is coordinating in India for the meet, says “globalisation is eating away everything from the independence of states to the existence of languages”. People around the world have formed organisations and devised strategies to fight back the negative effects of this economic onslaught on cultures and languages of various communities of the world.

However, people in East and West Punjab have not built up any credible movement of resistance against this new colonialism. In fact, there are people who have become collaborators, obviously at the cost of their own language and culture in both Punjabs, to further the interests of the new colonialism. An inferiority complex is being instilled among those who are not fluent in English, that is fast becoming the language of business, trade and industry. English is being thrust upon people through the new system of governance, administration and education infrastructure even in the countryside.

To dwell on these issues, which have been exercising the minds of Punjabi scholars in East Punjab as well as West Punjab, eminent Punjabi scholars from both India and Pakistan will gather for six days, starting from February 17, at Depalpur in Okara district of West Punjab. The get-together has been named as the Punjabi Boli Mela. A far away place from Lahore, Depalpur has been selected to break the monopoly of hosting such events in big cities.

An important question that will be discussed at the mela is whether both Punjabs speak different shades of the same language or are these two different languages. How can one differentiate between diversity within a language and different languages. Is this historical, linguistic or political question? What is the role of the language in the power-politics of the subcontinent? Why did the colonial rulers treat various local languages differently? For example, the treatment of Punjabi and Sindhi. What is the politics of language in Pakistan? This question is also relevant in the case of East Punjab, where the issue of the Punjabi language has witnessed several struggles in the past.

The most significant issue that will be debated at the meet is how can the scriptural divide between Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi be bridged? What is the importance of the mother tongue as a medium of instruction? Why do Punjabis hesitate to identify themselves with their mother tongue? What is the class politics of languages?

Gurmukhi is the script that is used to write Punjabi in East Punjab while Shahmukhi serves the same purpose in West Punjab. Though both scripts are used to write Punjabi, but those living in East Punjab cannot read Punjabi literature of West Punjab and vice versa. Efforts had been made earlier to find a solution to this problem, but in vain. As relations have started improving between the two countries, scholars have started focusing more now on this issue for having a better understanding of what is being produced in both countries as Punjabi literature.

In this context, Prof Bhushan, an eminent satirist, recalled Rabindranath Tagore’s advice to a Punjabi writer. Balraj Sahni, who wrote a poem in English, approached Gurudev to show it to him. “ What is your mother tongue?” was the counter question from Gurudev. “ Punjabi”. “Then go and write in your mother tongue”, said Gurudev. It is difficult to write poetry in Punjabi, said Sahni. Gurdev asked him “ If Guru Nanak Dev could produce such a wonderful ‘Gurbani’ in Punjabi, why can’t you write poetry in it? Gurudev gave similar advice to Balwant Gargi, who had requested him to write the forward of a book.

Rasool Hamjatove, whose famous book “Mera Dagistan” has been translated into several languages and is widely read, has stated in the book that in his native state Dagistan, when one wants to decry someone, he says “ Ja tun apni maan boli bhuljen” ( You may forget your mother tongue). They are so proud of their mother tongue.

Of course, people have made supreme sacrifices to save their mother tongue in Punjab also. But the way the English language is elbowing out Punjabi from the mainstream, the future of Punjabi seems to be bleak.


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rupe@panindia.com
Location: London,      Uk
Comments:   Hi,
I have to say goodbye for now, as due to life priorities unrelated to Punjabi, I have to be away for a while. I will improve my punjabi and then return to this excellent forum
Regards
Rupe


Name: Saeed -
E-mail: saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   apney Punjab dee ik makrooh shakal: eh link wekho: http://www.khabrain.com/pg08_08.htm


Name: Saeed -
E-mail: saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Sameer Jee,

tusi huN* science teacher taaN banan toN rahey. par tuahaaDaa lekh paRh ke inj laga ke tusi kamaal de science teacher baN* sakdey see. Kher ajey vee Duhley beraaN daa kujh vee naheeN vigRiyaa. Ik kam karo oh eh ke tusi inj de Punjabi lekh likho te ho sakey taaN ik adh CD vee naal naal baN*aaee jaao. Eh Punjabiyaa nooN science waaley paasey liyaaoN* laee te molviyaaN, giyaaniyaaN, paNDtaaN nooN PunjabiyaaN tooN door karan laee baRaa ee faydaa maNd hosee (hovey gaa). Je dil maney taaN daso ke kioN naa meyN tuhaaDey aj de es lekh nooN shaahmukhi wich utaar ke KhabraaN nooN ghal deyvaaN.

Aj de DAWN, Karachi (15.02.04) wich Paa Safir Rammah jee da lekh 2003 wich Punjabi kitaabaaN te rasaaliyaaN barey chhapiyaa ey. ARTICLE: Winds of change: Punjabi literature in 2003 By Safir Rammah Paa Safir Jee, ik copy tuhaaDey laee kharid laee ey. Eh link wekho:

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/books/books3.htm


Name: Javed Zaki -
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   The Sufi saint and Basant

By Majid Sheikh (Dawn-Karachi)

Few would know that Basant Panchami, the ancient spring festival that is celebrated with such gusto in Lahore, is also celebrated by the Muslims of the sub-continent at the dargah of Nizamuddin Aulia at Delhi, every year. This 700-year-old colourful tradition is attributed to the Sufis, especially the Chishti saint and his disciple, Hazrat Amir Khusrau, who were probably the first Muslims to have rejoiced at the celebration of Basant.

Legend has it that the Chishti saint experienced Basant in Lahore during a visit to the shrine of Hazrat Data Ganj Bakhsh, and willed that his disciples celebrate life and spring with the same gusto as was done in the latter city. However, the celebration was confined to the dargah of the saint, and to this day it is celebrated with kite flying, feasting, recitals of classical music, especially 'raag basant', and with light raags. Later, however, the dargah added 'qawalis' to the fare. One imagines that the spirit of the day was being dampened by the conservatives that took over the establishment of the dargah.

Two interesting changes have taken place in Lahore and Delhi over the last five years. In Lahore, the conservative religious extreme, which seems to have established a 'monopoly' on the morality of the population, (much as it is detested) has sought to kill off the very festival itself. In Delhi, which had over the centuries almost killed the festival because of the sway of the conservatives, have managed to turn this Lahori festival into a major money-spinning event.

My guess is that over the next few years, Basant Panchami will become one of India's main tourist attractions. It is almost like our sporting industry in Sialkot has been hijacked by a fake Sialkot in India. In the case of Basant, I firmly believe that this is an occasion that is impossible to hijack.

The beauty of Basant lies in the fact that it is truly a festival of the people, be they blue, black or white, be they of any religious hue. Spring has this ability to bring out the optimists in us. It is an unprompted response. One cannot help it. Unlike the warrior extremists who see life in black and white terms only, it were the great Sufi saints of the sub-continent who vividly saw the people, especially the poor, in colourful shades and tones. From Data Ganj Bakhsh to Hazrat Nizamuddin Aulia to Bulleh Shah, all of them saw the beauty of the inner spirit in the changing shades of spring, the bursting into life of the yellow flowers in our mustard fields.

The basic fact remains, irrespective of whom or what one worships, that our fortunes are firmly rooted in our land. The starting point is the fact spring means that the sun will soon dry our wheat and we will be assured food for another year. Let alone the ancient religions of the Jains or the Hindus or the Buddhists, all of whom flourished in Lahore in their day, the Muslim saints gave it new meaning. The Sikhs celebrate it as 'Baisakhi' on the fifth day of 'Basaikh' in the lunar calendar. The mainstay of our celebrations will be in Lahore and Kasur. But this year Delhi's chief minister Ms.

Sheila Dixit, some say of Lahori origins, has gone out of her way to expand last years "Basant Utsav". This year, there will be many more kites in the skies of Delhi than ever before. This year we are informed that Amritsar will also be celebrating Basant in a big way. It has become a major tourist attraction. I repeat, my guess is that in a few years time Basant will be India's biggest tourist attraction.

The ban on kites over most of the year has badly damaged this ancient festival. The reason is solely the use of 'metal wires', which is surely an unsporting tactic in a sport that is all about being happy. One cannot be happy and unfair at the same time. That is why if one were to concentrate on nabbing 'wire users' only, and to punish them in a nice sort of way, by making them ride donkeys with blackened faces, maybe then the 'law' would be enforced.

It would make greater sense if the population were asked to participate in nabbing 'wire flyers' and handing them over to the police. On this the authorities need everyone's support. On banning, they do not deserve any support. It is silly to ban kite flying just because a few cheat at it. If that logic is followed, then every sport, including the most enjoyable one, would be banned.

In our youth, before night kite flying started, we loved making paper lantern balloons. At night the entire old walled city of Lahore would have paper lanterns floating in the sky. It was an exquisite experience. Lahore on Basant will be as beautiful, or as ugly, as we make it. I wish the Indians the best of luck in their effort to cash in on Basant. There is need for us, Lahoris, to use the occasion not to ban visits, or dull any celebration, but to take it to new heights. I for one will be enjoying myself.


Name: rajeev -
E-mail: fakeemail@donotbother.com
Comments:   sameer veer jee..

ha ha ha ha ha... has has kae didh peer hon lag paya... punjabi wich atomic theory daa rang hi kuj hor ae.. i think your explanation in punjabi can be understood by even the uninitiated.. braaavo!!


Name: Sameer -
E-mail: sameer123@hotmail.com
Comments:  
["aTom wich elecTron gawaaNDiyaaN waaNgooN mil jul ke rehNdey neyN"]. Saeed Ji: Due to my background in chemistry, I am quite familiar with atomic and molecualr structures in great detail per eh Panjai ich pehi vari paRh kay sawad aa gia.....although I haven't read the article but let me try to explain little bit in panjabi.....electron diaN baRian majboriaN hondiaN nay. Jay kadi enhaN nu banday samjho teh ohnaN do halat vekh kay rona aa javey ga..sub tuN pehlaN taN ohnaN da sara jeewan bajh doR ich langh janda hae..jehRa ohnaN nu zyada gha pavay odhar de ho janday naiN....per shukar os sacchay rub da keh eh kadi marday naheeN...waisay inhaN nuN marya ja sakda hae....teh Einstein honaN nuN electron maraN di gal uttay Nobel Prize milya si....jeh electron nu positron naal takra deo teh electron mer janda hae......eh gaNwandhiaN di taraH es ker kay rehnday me keh ik teh nucleus di kich ne banh kay rakhia honda hae.....doja centripetal force.....teeja nucleus ne ehnaN nu ghar bana keh ditta honda hae teh her ghar nu wapda waliaN ne fix energy ditti hondi eh....edhar tusi ghar (orbitals) tuN bahr niklay naheeN odhar koi hor electron tuhadi thaN mal laiga......teh fer junkyard dog di tarah jithay khali ghar (orbital) vekhya othay weRh gaye...kadi kadi electron mil kay apnay faiday lai jattaN di tarah, ghar dha kay navaiN wadday ghar bana lainday naiN (hybrid orbitals)....khair chuddo kafi hae inna e aj lai....


Name: Sardarz -
E-mail: sardarz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Milli Ji,
A very happy Valentines to you too!!! and to all apana"s.
I have not seen valentine's celebrations anywhere as close as to the fervor displayed in Chandigarh.
The northern sectors 8,9,10... and around the university have their own way of clebrating with young people of both sexes bringing it out with full enthusiam.
Another example of flexibilty and cosmplotitaness of punjabi culture.

Regards.


Name: Saeed -
E-mail: saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Dullah Bhatti jee te KahloN jee ne gal mukaa ditee. meyN vee maafee chaahoNdaaN. Nikkee jaee gal daa glaahR baN* geaa. Aj de KHABRAAN ( Zia Shahid horaaN da Punjabi akhbar from Lahore and Islamabad) wich Dr. Mohammad Afzal Shahid horaaN daa ik bharwaaN mazmoon aTom, bijlee, te transister baarey chhapiyaa. MeyN ohnaaN de laee ik akhbaar kharid leyaa ey. Dr. Sahib de mazmoon daa sirnaavaaN baRaa wadhiyaa ey. "aTom wich elecTron gawaaNDiyaaN waaNgooN mil jul ke rehNdey neyN". aTon wich electronaaN dee saaNjh saaDey laee vee ik sabaq rakhdee ey. ke aseeN eys site de electron (Sajid Ch. Dr. Shahid, DR. Zaki te ik nikkaa jeyhaa elecron je) mil jul ke gawaaNDiyaaN waaNg rahyey.

Safir Rammah Jee, meyN apney ghar do akhbar (KHABRAN) lagvaa leyaaN je. Ik tuhaaDey laee te ik apney laee. ik maheeney de akhbaar akaThey ho gaey taaN ghal diyaaN gaa.


Name: Javed Zaki -
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Sajno. Ik nazam (free verse) hazzar e.

.....(Kabhudde Vaila da Opaa).....

Pata neiN vaile nuN keeh hoye
Vaila kisey khope lagge kohloo de bel waaNgooN
...das baaraN fuTT de chakar vich ghumda piya e
Ya, kisey daRhi waale buDDhe boRh thalle beThhi
...majh waaNg, apne khoraaN te khalon tuN waaNjhi
Ya, kisey amlee jeye baNde waang, jehRa apne
...doare bhari sardaaee di chiTyaaee vich Timkde
...jhoaliyaan nuN ee sach jaan ke be-sudh piya rehNde

JehRa vaile de pichhe sir suTT ke chalde
Vaila ohnuN dhreekde, madholde
Aao, vaile de athhre mushki ghoRe nuN lagaam paaye
OhnooN apni aDDi te laaiye
Ohdi maThhi tirikhi chaal nuN apni mann-marzi da
mothhaaj banaye
Aao, vaile nuN keeliye
Dulle Bhatti, Ahmad Kharal, Bhagat Singh te Pash jeye
...gabhrooaaN de naabar kartabyaaN de taweet
...vaile di ragaaN vich gholiye
Vaile nuN apni mann-marzi chalaaye te madholiye
Aao, vaile nuN apne wass ich karye

Javed Zaki


Name: dullabhatti -
E-mail: dullabhatt_remove_47@yahoo.com
Comments:   sajno, saarian boliaN changian ne....changa literature chaahe kisay boli ch howe salauhna chahida ay..lekin Punjabi hoan de naatay jo aadar maan saaday dilaN wich Waris jaaN Bulleh lai ay oh kadi Iqbal jaaN Faiz lai nahi ho sakda. baaki Kahlon ji ne theek kiya...saaday kann pakk gaye ne Punjabi di nideya sunn sunn ke...jadoN de jammeiN aan ehi sunn'dey aa rahe aan...har gall di koi hadd hundi ay....jehra saadi maaN di izzat karoo, asiN ohdi maaN nu sir niwaN ke chachi ji kahaNge te goDhiN hath laawaNge....par..

Other than that..I think Sajjid did not post Faiz to make any point or anything...so no one should have hard feelings...and Saeed bhrah's dukh vi samajh painda ay. saari gall nu ithey ee Thappo.

Akhilesh, Persian was taught until '47 in Punjab from 6th or 7th grade on. My father who passed his 6th grade in March 47 and spent 3-4 months in 7th grade before partition rememebers learning some basic Persian in school..not sure whether in 6th or 7th grade...although does not rememebr much now. Persian is also taught as post graduate subject in some Punjab univerasities...a renknown Persian teacher Gulwant Singh(?)in Punjab died couple of years ago...there are very few left in East Punjab to teach or speak Persian with any kind of authority.


Name: mili -
E-mail: duggalmills@yahoo.com
Location: chandigarh,      india
Comments:   i have followed quite a lot on this site... also revived my interest by listening to the beautiful numbers by all the sufi saints in which they all talked about love for their master... love has many ways...many forms... so wishing all the apna members HAPPY VALENTINES DAY...


Name: Akhilesh -
E-mail: HiTMaN9497@aol.com
My URL: http://www.lokpunjab.com/
Location: ,      Europe
Comments:   Few good articles which some of you may have read before:

Persian or Hindi?
http://www.lokpunjab.org/mela/English/articles/article_detail.asp?offset=50&id=45

One language, two scripts
http://www.lokpunjab.org/mela/English/articles/article_detail.asp?offset=60&id=40

Ranjit Singh: more secular than religious
http://www.lokpunjab.org/mela/English/articles/article_detail.asp?offset=40&id=61

I agree with the comment "But successive governments in Pakistan cannot be forgiven for their criminal neglect of Persian which is nothing short of a terrible cultural blow. Just imagine that before Partition this noble language was taught in every school in Punjab, whether the school was run by the government or privately by Muslims, Hindus or Sikhs."

My Grandfather did either his B.A or M.A in Persian at FC College Lahore. I dont know if Persian is taught in East Punjab schools but i suspect the above comment can be applied there too.

I know that it is not a concern or priority of anyone, but how can Persian be revived in Punjab? Or is that not possible now that it has been replaced by Urdu/Hindi and English? (In both India and Pakistan). I had plans to learn Persian before Punjabi (Before i took an interest and came to appreciate having a 'mother-tongue'), but now i think i have enough money to learn them simultaneously in the near future.


Name: P S Kahlon -
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Comments:   Shahid Jee, Sameer Jee and Rajeev Jee:

Well said. AssiN sare iho gall aakh rahe haN. Par sada apna apna dhaNg wakhra hai.Koee kise dee boli nooN bura nahiN akhda. Par oh lok sadee PaidwaN di boli nooN vi bakhshan. Sade TaN Punjabi dee nindiaa (burayee) sunn sunn ke kann pakk gaey neN. Je Punjabi PendoowaN di boli hai te phir koee maRi gall te nahiN. PindaN vich vi rabb de bande rehnde neN. Changee gal taN eh hai ke iss forum te sare lokaN nooN apni Punjabi boli da maNh hai te isse kar ke assiN dujiaN dee boli nooN maRa nahiN akhde.

Rabb Sabh da bhala kare te sariaN dee boli nooN izat MaNh milay te ohde nall sadi boli nooN vi MaNh miley


Name: Shahid -
E-mail: mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:   1985 wich Waris Shah Memorial committee dee chapi tay janab Sharif Sabir horaN dee Heer Waris Shah day muDhli likhat wich Dr. Tariq Aziz horaN ikk baRee sohni gull aakhee ay.

jay Waris Shah aNgrezee da Shakespeare nahiN tay Shakespeare wee tay Panjabi da Waris Shah nahiN

jiveN sanoN apni maaN boli tay bRa maan hay, unjay ee dojiaN nooN apni apni maaN boli tay maan hay. doojay dee maaN boli da lehaz tay izzat ikk waNdiN apni maaN boli da lehaz tay izzat hay. The real challenge is raising our own maaN boli without denegrading anybody else's.


Name: rajeev -
E-mail: fakeemail@donotspam.com
Comments:   sameer veer jee..

very well said.. i would like to add my two pennies worth..

even though comparing languages is futile, it is my humble opinion that languages that are steeped in the colors of the land, and have been metabolized into the very air of a region seem to have a kind of emotional sincerity about them that is hard to beat..

before going to punjabi let me site an example of braj bhasha and khadee hindi.. even though "shudh hindi" has been the language of the elite (pundits etc.) all the major poetic renderings have been in braj bhasha and khadee hindi.. guru gobind singh, himself a scholar in persian, sanskrit etc. chose braj bhasha for a majority of his work.. all the other gurus made similar choices.. sant kabir jee's poetry is another example..almost all the material for indian classical music (khayal, thumri, dhrupad, tappa etc..) is never found in chaste hindi but in brajbhasha etc..the list goes on and on with amir khusro etc.

in our land, baba bulley shah, sultan bahu and countless other have chosen punjabi (or other derivatives) to express their most sublime and subtle philosophies.. even though some of them are known to have been persian scholars..

some times it is erroneously (in my humble opinion) projected as their desire to commune with the local people.. methinks that punjabi, braj bhasha etc. have a major advantage over urdu, persian and chaste hindi/sanskrit as far as poetic expressions are concerned.. urdu/persian/hindi tend to please the intellect with mere play of words (amply shown in modern ghazals..) where as punjabi renderings from the great sufis please the soul as it were, by "cutting to the chase".. the emotional sincerity of punjabi is much higher as compared to modern urdu idiom, especially in poetry.. mediocre but ubiquitos ghazal churning industry proves this point..

ae meraa khayaal heaga hai.. agge, saahit-dan aes tae kuj roshni pawan tae asee hor chas layiye..

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh


Name: Akhilesh -
E-mail: HiTMaN9497@aol.com
My URL: http://www.lokpunjab.com/
Location: ,      Europe
Comments:   Sajid Ji, nice to see you working on a new webpage for the Punjabi department of the University of Punjab.

I think your skill and effort on pages like the Qur'an in Punjabi are excellent. The Punjabi department should feel very grateful that you are preparing a new site for them. Also thank you for the additions of the Bible and Geeta in Punjabi to the APNA homepage.

Some good news from Ludhiana:

Johar for Indo-Pak academic interaction
Tribune News Service

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040212/punjab1.htm#18

Ludhiana, February 11
Academic interaction between India and Pakistan may take some more time, but the interaction between two parts of Punjab is likely to start from next month after Vice-Chancellors from various universities of the two countries will converge here for a conference. This will be followed with interaction with heads of colleges. Stating this here today, Higher Education Minister, Harnam Dass Johar said during his 10-day stay in Pakistan he had found the atmosphere congenial for academic interaction. He said there was a greater scope for the two Punjabs to learn each other’s script.

Mr Johar had gone to attend the World Punjabi Conference at Lahore. He visited various universities and academic institutions.

“While the two countries have a common history and culture, we have much more in common, particularly the language”, he said. He suggested that during mutual visits of linguistic experts, Persian scripted Punjabi and Gurmukhi Punjabi could be explored.

Mr Johar said he had found a phenomenal difference in the atmosphere in Pakistan regarding India. He said that there was not much bitterness among the common Pakistanis against Indians. There was a growing urge among them to see peace in the region. “We want to improve relations at all levels, be it business, academic, intellectual or political”, he said.

PS, Will anyone be attending the Punjab Lok Boli Mela - 17-22 February; Depalpur, Punjab, Pakistan?


Name: Sameer -
E-mail: sameer123@hotmail.com
Comments:  
The resentment level against Urdu should vary from time to time. As Panjabi gains its due status in Panjab, the resentment level should decline accordingly. Similarly if Urdu status is elevated through state sponsored actions, Pakistan ideology or religion than resentment level usually goes up. There are certain constants (like biological insticts) in life and many variables. The level of love-hate relationship of these variables is conditional. I have been saying this all along that partition of Panjabi related variables should not be as important as they were immediately after the partition. The riotings and killings created wedges of hostility and resentment among Panjabis but the conditions have changed quite a bit since then. Therefore keep reminding of historical resentments of last 100 years by the vested interests no longer have the same influence over Panjabis.

Same is true of Urdu. If Panjabi is accepted as one of the national language of Pakistan, taught in schools, given same status as Urdu, Balochi, Sindhi and Pushtu, then exhibiting resentment against Urdu does not make sense any more. Every language belongs to some segment of population whose native language it is.

At personal level too, the resentment is situation specific. A person in a Panjabi surroundings with everybody speaking Panjabi as the case is in the villages, small towns and cities of Panjab, the resentment against Urdu is not seen for no reason to resent something that is absent or invisible. But if in the large cities, a Panjabi activist feels squeezed in a sea of Urud speaking Panjabis as in Rawalpindi or Islamabad, the resentment level goes up. If radio and tv non-stop talk about Iqbal, Ghalib and Faiz, music is mostly Urdu and poor quality than contemporary music in other languages including Panjabi,.....If you have to speak only Urdu within you r own family like me because nobody can speak Panjabi despite being only one generation detached from rural background, the resentment goes up. But when I listen to Panjabi music and enjoy it, the resnetment becomes irrelevent and drops.

Urdu has been badly hurt not only for its use by undesired elements of the society - mullahs, madrassahs and fundamentalist but so-called poets have dealt a serious blow. They added new words from Persian and Arabic, conjugated them with urdu vernacular faster than people were willing to accept or practice. The poets created an elitist mutually exclusive class who could understand each other poetry. People on the street never gave a damn about this class because it was not intelligible as well as ghazal was single topic poetcal surroundings of the poets, so were the birds like qumri and tooti (turtledove), flowers like lala - two of the things Bala Lahori used extensively. Lets be real. If you live in Panjab, prefer Arab customs, Persian and Arabic allegories and metaphors, poetry loaded with flowers, birds, landscape which are nowhere in sight in your surroundings, what good it is. Why not then read English and prefer it. At least it will help in advancement in this world in science and technology and extreme broadening of horizon and extensive available material to read on any topic. I prefer Urdu prose over Urdu poetry for the above reasons. Additionally I have found that doing poetry in Urdu, particularly in ghazal format is the easiest thing...I tried my hands for fun for a month or so and in the process lost all respect and admiration for most of Urdu ghazal poets due to the ease it can be done. Spend 50 years doing ghazal poetry and anybody can have 1-20 good readable ghazals...


Name: P S Kahlon -
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Comments:   Dr. Shahid Jee;

Tuhadian likhiaN nazmaN (KavitaN) bhaveN sadee boli vich jaN hor boli vich howan sariaN hi chaNgiaN neN. Mein te hor thawaN te ja ke vi tuhadiaN kavitaN paRiaN neN. Dill khush ho gia si. AssiN aiveiN hi Saeed bhara de pichhe pai gae haN. Chhoti jahi gall si. Sajid Chaudhry Jee:

Galib sahib dee eh gall odoN vi thek si te Hunh vi. Rabb kare key assiN iss dhartee NooN hi aisse jagga banna laey jadon Sarey bhain/bhara ikko jahe najjar awan.

Rabb Rakha


Name: farhat -
E-mail: farhatkhan5@hotmail.com
Comments:   Rupe, Ralph Waldo Emerson said when ever you dream,dream big because they may come true. So keep on dreaming. Jiyo,Farhat


Name: Saeed -
E-mail: saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Bullhey Shah aseeN mar gaey,

jiyooNdaa rahwey koee hor


Name: Sajid Chaudhry -
E-mail: sajid@brain.com.pk
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Location: Sahiwal, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Dr. Shahid's Ghalib Translation in Shahmukhi...


Name: Shahid -
E-mail: mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:   I like to share with you all my Panjabi poetic rendering of Mirza Ghalib's famous Urdu short poem:
(rehyey abb aisee jagah chal ker jahaN koee na ho)

I wrote it just today. Enjoy.

jes thaN koee na howay rehyay othay chal dila
koee na bolay haNgooray na sunaway baat pa

ghar banayay jes na kaNdhaN na boohay baaryaN
na gwaNdhee howay koee na kisay da aasra

taap phookay jay kaday puchhay laway na koee saar
saah nikal javan jadoN roway na koee vayn pa

Shahid


Name: Saeed -
E-mail: saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:  

Shahid Sahib,

Tusee hath wich mochN*aa phaR leyaa ey. Shukriyaa. mochN*aa hun phaRee rakhyaa je. Ehnoo chhaDN*aa naheeN. Paa Jee, sharoo wich eh Punjabi jeeveyN dee vee hovey hoN*ee chaahee dee ey. iksaartaa vee aa jaaey gee. PehlaaN Punjabi taaN aa jaway. fer vee Paa Shahid Jee, Punjabi paRhaoN daa shukriyaa.

Dr. Zaki Jee, meyN maafee chaaohNdaaN, tuhaanoo meyrey lekh naal dukh hoyaa. saaDay dukh nooN naa samjheyaa je. aayNdaa tuhaanoo kadee vee shikaayt naheeN hovey gee. meyN ghaltiyaaN , gunaahwaaN te kaaley lekhaaN naal bhariyaa kammi kammeen aaN.


Name: Sajid Chaudhry -
E-mail: sajid@brain.com.pk
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Location: Sahiwal, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Tayyab Jee
Excuse me The 4 religious scriptures on APNA Page are those being mostly parcticed by PUNJABIS.APNA is not a RELIGIOUS material containg site where we present Punjabi translations of ALL religions.So I dont think we should thinks to post other religious scriptures that are not commonly practised by Punjabi People.(It is my openion) What do you think.
Shahid Jee Interesting....


Name: rajeev -
E-mail: fakeemail@donotspam.com
Comments:   tayyab veer jee..

i am quickly noting down some basic tags below.. i hope that it helps

for new paragraph use <p>

for new line use <br>

to make something bold use<b>

to add a space use &nbsp


Name: rajeev -
E-mail: fakeemail@donotspam.com
Comments:   tayyab veer jee..

i am quickly noting down some basic tags below.. i hope that it helps

for new paragraph use <p>

for new line use <br>

to make something bold use<b>

to add a space use &nbsp


Name: rajeev -
E-mail: fakeemail@dontbother.com
Comments:   tayyab veer jee...

i did not quite understand what you mean by spaces.. do you mean new paragraph or line etc. ? if yes click here for some basic html tags
scroll down the page and you will find tags for how to start a new paragraph or a line etc. etc..

hope that helps
rab rakha


Name: Tayyab -
E-mail: zan_ali34@hotmail.com
Comments:   When you're posting a comment on this forum how on earth do you get spaces? I've tried so many times but when it goes on the forum the sapces I put in are not there. Can someone please tell me why? Thanks


Name: Tayyab -
E-mail: zan_ali34@hotmail.com
Comments:   Many congratulations on the launch of the Shri Bhagvad Gita and the Holy Bible. Now we have the Holy Quran, the shri Bhagvad Gita, the Japjee shaib (is it just some part of the Guru Granth Sahib or is the whole of the Guru Granth sahib?)and the Holy Bible. Now we should also get Jain, Bhuddist, Zoroastrian, and Jewish scriptures.


Name: Javed Zaki -
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Saeed ji. Menoon es gal da goah neiN si je tohaade jiya baNda jehRa soofiaaN te "awaami dard-maNdaaN" (humanists) de sochal aakhiyaaN nuN aam lokaaee tikar pochaan de solakhne kam vich rujhya hoya e ohde mann vich ena krodh bharya hoya e. Agar aseeN dojiyaaN zabaanaaN nuN eni nafrat karaaN gey te aseeN apni ee maan-boli naal dharo karan te ohdi raah vich kanDDe beejan da moDh banhaaN gey. Faiz Sahib di shaa'iri Urdu vich ey per ohnaaN di soch punjab di dharti de aam lokaaN di soch te wasebe naal juRi hoyee e. Oh nazam tusi paRhi e "Taange baanoN ke naam....." te eho jeyaan hor keyee nazamaaN. MeN Faiz Sahib baare tohaade 'farmaan' nuN es misre naal khatam karaaN ga "kithe Maher ali, kithe teri sanaa". Javed Zaki


Name: Shahid -
E-mail: mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Saeed tay Sajid horaN day paaNchay wich meN we thoRa luch taL dyaN. Saeed horaN dee post wich kujh urdu day 'lafz'/akhar hen. kujh oh tay ohna day Panjabi bhra thallay dittay neN. Enjoy.

sirf = nira
azeem = waDDa, mahan
shair = kavi
dard = peeR
mehsoos = sehan
badeshi = obaR
yarghamal = bandi
zuban = boLi taraqqi = w'dha, wadha


Name: kaurasach -
E-mail: kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:   Rupe
There is an old English ediOm.
"IF YOU WANT YOUR DREAMS TO COME TRUE, YOU MUST WAKE UP FIRST."


Name: Saeed -
E-mail: saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Sajid Veer Jee,

Yaar khijh khaoN dee loR naheeN. meyN taaN sirf eyh aakhyaa see ke eys forum nooN Faiz Ahmad Faiz dee Urdu poetry toN bachao. Urdu poetry de laee hor batheyriyaaN saayTaaN neyN. Faiz Ahmad Faiz Urdu de ik azeem shaaer neyN par oh Punjab te Punjabi de dard nooN mahsoos naa kar sakey. Jis wayley oh dard mahsoos karan lagey taaN weylaa laNgh geyaa see. OhnaaN de Urdu naal ishq nooN wekhaa wekhee lakhaaN karoRaaN punjabiyaaN da satyaanaas hoyaa. EhnaaN Punjabi so-called Urdu de maamiyaaN ne eys dhart nooN badeshee taaqtaaN de hath yarghamaal banauN* wich bharwaaN kirdaar adaa keetaa. EhnaaN nooN taareekh kadey maaaf naheeN karey gee. tusee saaDey dukh nooN samjho. Tusee jam jam Faiz dee Urdu shaaeree nooN suno. Enjoy karo. Par eyh forum meyrey baRey ee piyaarey Punjabi veer jee, Punjabi zuban (bhaashaa) dee taraqqee de laee ey. eys kar ke buraa naa manaayaa je. tuhaaDiyaaN Punjabi zubaan de laee khidmataaN salaahN* jog neyN.

kehnooN haal sunaawaaN dil daa,

koee mehram raaz naa mildaa.


Name: Sajid Chaudhry -
E-mail: sajid@brain.com.pk
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Location: Sahiwal, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Saeed Jee
Janab urdu de niklan ya waRan di gal nahin ay.urdu naal mere PUNJABI ishq te koi faraq nahin paiNda.FUN da sawad laina hor gal ay.Jay aseeN "SouNh" khaa laiye baee aseeN Punjabi toN ilawa kuch paRhna te sunna e nahiN ay te maazrat naal aakhaN ga baee aseeN fer Punjabi vi nahiN samajh sakday.Apni boli naal doojiaN boliaaN vich hoye kam te jhaati pouna koi maNdi gal nahiN ay.Jay tuhanoo aihday naal tuhaDa dil dukhya hai te janab maiN maa'zrat kerna te aggay toN mohtaat rahwaN ga.


Name: Saeed -
E-mail: saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Sajid Jee, I admire only Faiz’s little Punjabi poetry.

Ajj laah ulaahmey miThRey yaar mairey

Ajj aa vehRey vichhRay yaar mairey

Fajar hovey te aakhiyey bismillaah

Ajj daulataan saaDay ghar aaiyaan neyN

JehRey qaul tay asaaN vasaah keetaa

Ohney oRak toR nibhaiyaaN neyN


Name: Saeed -
E-mail: saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Sajid Ch.

kee gal ey bhaee Sajid, terey choN Urdu baahir naheeN niklee. Faiz dee Urdu shaeree nooN hor batherey sanaon waaley neyN. Eys forum nooN Faiz dee Urdu toN bachao paa jee. Bura naa manaeeN yaar. aseeN baRey dukhee aaN. Faiz horaaN aakhree umerey Punjabi wal goH keetaa par deyr ho gaee.


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   Hath te hai Char Ungleeaa te ek Gootaa
Ek hai Chenab, mere Dil dee Sharaab
Ek hai Jhelum, mere pyaaree Begum
Ek hai Beas, mere mun Udass
Ek hai Ravi, mere chan de PeeAss
Ek hai Sutlej, Mainnoo Rakdaa Saihaj

Oh Rupinder, Jaise Hath lee hai baa
Ohse Punjab hai meree Maa
Cutteah hath, Judeeah Sadee Maa


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
Location: london,      UK
Comments:   Mainoo Neend Naa Aa Eh
Punjab Dee Yaad Sutah Eh
Dharkan Lahore Daa Bolaa Ve
Amritsar Dee Awaaz Bukar Ve

Punjab Hai Mera Watan
Eh Desh hai Sada Rattan

Eh Noon Bhull Naa Nahin
Eh Noon Bhull Naa Nahin

Eh De Cauck To Assee Paideeh
Eh De Pyaar De Vaideeh

Punjab De Mumta
Punjab De Mumta

Tu Hai Sadee Maa
Tu Hai Sadee Maa

Mainoo Neend Naa Aa Eh
Punjab Dee Yaad Sutah Eh
Dharkan Lahore Daa Bolaa Ve
Amritsar Dee Awaaz Bukar Ve

Kisse tuhade cho kohee Gatwick Val Accountancy Vacancie daa taa ne Jaandaa?
Rupe


Name: Sajid Chaudhry -
E-mail: sajid@brain.com.pk
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Location: Sahiwal, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Lo sajjno Rupinder jee ne aik navaN silsila shuru keeta hai apnay "SUPNAY" post karan da tusi vi hissa paao.... jaagday hoye vekhan walay "SUPNAY" post karan di ijazat nahiN hai. Sirf neeNd walay kar sakday o te oh vi jay PUNJABI de baray hovan..... Keep it UP


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   I had a dream last night.
Ek nawan nagar Pakistan te Bharat de border te banaageeaaa see. Eh nagar te chkar kar ke border adjust kitha geeaah see donoo watanaa to. Eh Nagar da naan rakee geah Ranjitpur
Sab sign Punjabi'ch see. Shahmukhi te Gurymukhi, jassa nau mass daa ristaa hundaa. Etha donnaa mulka ne sodaa karn daa centre bunaliaa, te Punjabi etha donoo pass to ah sak de si. Eh Kalpanaa such ha ke siraf ek supnaa hai?
Rupe


Name: Sajid Chaudhry -
E-mail: sajid@brain.com.pk
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Location: Sahiwal, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Friends a quice link to some tracks of Faiz Ahmed Faiz's udu poems in his own voice. Enjoy...
http://brain.com.pk/~sajid/faiz/


Name: kaurasach -
E-mail: kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:   Akhilesh, Suman,
Chaste means pure (khari, khalas). That is not polluted.


Name: Sameer -
E-mail: sameer123@hotmail.com
Comments:  
Sajid Chaudhry Ji: Geeta is not the central text of Hinduism like Koran, Guru Garanth Sahib and Bible. Hinduism is a long series of philosophical thoughts with limited theology compared to other religions. To the best of my knowledge, only Hare Krishna groups considers Geeta as the central text. Chronologically, Hindu traditions are: Vedas (Rig-Veda being most important, oldest and Panjab-based), Upanishads, Epics period, Vedanta-I, Temple traditions, Tantric Traditions and Vedanta-II. The Geeta is part of Mahabharata and thus related to Epics period (Ramayana and Mahabharata being two Epics. The festivals of Diwali, Rakhi, Dussehra are the memories of this period. The Basant and Vasakhi are more likely the memories of older period than Epics and offerings or Parshad is perhaps the oldest tradition dating back to Rig-Veda or before). If any single text is to be considered most important text of Hinduism, it would be Upanishads which are commentaries on Vedas.

Anyway you have pleased Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus and Christians but I am left out...-:/ When are you going to create link to Buddha's teachings, I-Cheng (Taosim), Analect (Confusius) and Popol-Vuh (native American)? Khair, chuddo, asi apna rub khud hi labh lavaNge...god created chinese girls in her own image..;)) since god created man in his own image, according to the bible.


Name: P S Kahlon -
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Comments:   APNEO:

I read a very nice review of Khamosh Pani winner of 56th International Film Festival awards. The review is written by Farhat Aziz. The film was supposed to have been shown at Kara film festival in Pakistan in December and the release is supposed to be soon. Any body interested in reading the story can send me e-mail and I will send an attachment to the e-mail. Some of you have talked about that film when it won those awards as the first Punjabi movie to do so.

RABB RAKHA


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
Comments:   Shahid Ji,
I d'nt think I have lost out though. The process we have communicated about has still helped improve my Punjabi, especially reading skills
regards
Rupe


Name: Rashid Chaudhry -
E-mail: rashid313@yahoo.com
Location: Pindi,      Pakistan
Comments:   The recent CBMs undertaken by Pakistan and India are being hailed widely. I would like to expose the dismal dimension of the exercise below.

miThian gallaN kauRay lok
sunjiaN galiaN sauRay lok
nikkiaN nikkiaN shanaN tay
phullay phir day chauRay lok
shanti shanti japan walay
labhday phir day phauRay lok
sianaf diaN preetaN day wich
kamlay ho gaey bauhRay lok


Name: Sajid Chaudhry -
E-mail: sajid@brain.com.pk
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Location: Sahiwal, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Akhilesh Jee Thanks for posting link of Punjabi department site. It was really shocking and sad that official site of Punjab University dont have any link or information of PUNJABI DEPARTMENT. This urged me to contact those guys who are working onunofficial site of Punjabi department.I'm glad they respond well now I've another platform to work for my MaaN Boli :) Here is new look i've designed for it.Thanks once again :)
UnOfficial website of Punjabi Department


Name: rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   Thank Saeed Ji, for your encouraging comments


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   I apolozise. I may have been going thru a moment of madness, as no one reacted to telling me opinions about western born Punjabis like me, who have nvere been lucky to have your literature taught to us, and have a european american experince. SO sorry for my keyboard trigger happiness.
Akilish I take your point.
Tayyab , thank you for reminding me that Boli is the proper word. I will not change my past use of Bhasa and zuban, but in future will just use boli.
Regards Rupe


Name: Sajid Chaudhry -
E-mail: sajid@brain.com.pk
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Location: Sahiwal, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Dulla Veer jee maiN kisay nooN ki Rabb naal joRna aih OHDA karam ay oh sanooN apnay naal joRi rakhda. maiN te aap baRa nimana jehya baNda haaN.
Janab Music ne e tay wakhta paya hoya ay kisay passay kaboo nahiN auNda. aik latt kaboo karda te dooji kisay passay nikal jaaNdi hai. Khair chD da nahiN maiN vi DheeTh aaN raat 9:00 wajay da lagga swair day 6:30 ho gaey aa. Per koi gall nahiN yaa te aih theek ho jaao ya fair maiN vi vigaR jaaoN....Hopefully jaldi he fix ho jaaye ga...


Name: DullaBhatti -
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Sajid veer, lagda ay tooN saanu rabb naal pakka joRhan da jugaaR kar riya ain.:) tera bahut bhalla howey....par hai asiN vi baRhe dheeTh. parnaala othey da othey rahvega.:)

Sajid: I can't listen to all the music links on APNA at work. that is a big problem. Is there any trick to it?

Sameer: janaab tusi te 4S toN 6S te pahunch gaye. 4S ikk school ay Ambarsar..Sant Singh Sukha Singh school...jinney ambarsar de wadday wadday badmaash ne(mere toN ilawa) saarey othoN paRh likh(read laRh bhiRh) ke aaye ne.

Suman ji, Basant da idea bahut changa ay..bass rabb da naaN lai ke start karo...aape haulley haulley hor lok jurhange naal.


Name: Sajid Chaudhry -
E-mail: sajid@brain.com.pk
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Location: Sahiwal, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Suman Jee there is more for APNA friends at bottom of Music Section :) Hope all folks will enjoy new edditions :)


Name: suman -
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   Sajid janab. Fantastic. I am delighted to see the Gita and the Bible on the APNA page. Kudos to you and Safir.


Name: rajeev -
E-mail: fakeemail@hotmail.com
Comments:   suman ji
here are the songs in its unedited version... hopefully they play this time

pandit c r vyas, he starts to sing the punjabi bandish after 21 seconds into the clip.. pandit ji sings
ustad BGAK, talk for 50 seconds and then sings..ustad ji sings

please do let meknow if you were able to listen to them allright..

sajid veer jee.. great work with bible and geeta.. keep it up.. and thanks for posting the clip
rab rakha..


Name: Sajid Chaudhry -
E-mail: sajid@brain.com.pk
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Location: Sahiwal, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Suman jee and friends Rajeev jee had send me that file but i couldn't link it ealier Here is link now(Sorry for late posting Rajeev jee)
Classical Punjabi


Name: suman -
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   Sir Sardar etc. I was not able to get the music to play but that might be because I am not too proficient with the computer. What Sajid puts on tho, I can listen to. I am very keen to hear your songs, they seem rare and unusual.

Akhilesh. If you define "chaste" Punjabi as written Punjabi, then I have to point out that it contains lots and lots of 'assimilated' words from Urdu, Hindi and all the rest of the usual culprits. If I choose to read only 'pure punjabi' I would have to give up, as far as poetry goes, every single poet from Waris Shah to the gurus,to the sufis, to the modernists. The same will likely be true about the prose writers. You will find it very interesting, I think (and you may have already done so), to go thru any pre partition dictionary of Punjabi. For that matter you can go thru any dictionary, looking specifically at the origin of words. All languages are connected. In fact, the vitality of a language comes from its ability to take, absorb and make its own, new and wondrous experiances and words.

I must admit that it seems to me to be a waste of energy to try and figure who did what to whom and when - the British, Ranjit Singh, the hindus, the muslims, the sikhs, the city, the village, the preacher, the politician. Of course, different people have different favorite-bad-guys. Why not find somebody/something neutral to blame so that we can at least tolerate one another? The stars or maybe the angrez (since they are not punjabi).


Name: Sameer -
E-mail: sameer123@hotmail.com
Comments:  
Wait until Sahibzada Syed Salim Shehzad Shah Sialkoti makes his appearance here.....;))


Name: Sajid Chaudhry -
E-mail: sajid@brain.com.pk
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Location: Sahiwal, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Here Friends new addition of Bible and Geeta in Gurmukhi on APNA Page.Cheers........


Name: kaurasach -
E-mail: kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:   Akhilesh, Tayab
Some of my family members hail from Patiala district for generations. The dialect they speak especially in the eastern part of the district (Dera Bassi, Banur, Lalru etc.) is much different from central Malwa(Ludhiana) and western Malwa (Ferozepur, Faridkot).


Name: sir sardar rajeev singh sahib :-) -
E-mail: fakeemail@donotspam.com
Comments:   saeed sahib..
tuhaada bahut bahut shukriya.. tusi tae menoo S-Brigade the sardar banaa chadyaa jae.. tuhaada ditta naa pad kae tae mera seena ful kae doona ho gaya jae... jarranawazi daa bahut bhaut shukriya...:-) rab tuhada bhala kare

farhat khan saheb
very nicely said.. i would like to add one thing here...i firmly believe that we have to modify the concept of "tolerance"... methinks, the word tolerance somehow exudes a sentiment of condescending... we should make an effort to realize that we are not merely tolerating the other religion but infact hold it to be TRUE.. infact, as true as our own.. then slowly all the other misgivings will start to disappear gradually..

it is noteworthy that religion flows in our veins as it were.. which is a good thing, i must say.. unlike other nations, our subcontinent has held our sufis, pirs, gurus to be the true beacons of our land.. our village folk might not know the difference between socialism and capitalism but can certainly enlighten you with wonderful religious insight.. in a land made holy with the gurus and faqirs, religion will indeed play an important role.. so, joint festivals and melas will promote mutual respect and understanding...

rupinder jee
considering your passion for punjabi and your unlflinching efforts to promote it, i was gravely disppointed at reading your last post, lamenting "prejudice" etc... i am hoping that it was not a well deliberated post.. i would be so glad if you could confirm that it was just a case of " keyboard trigger happiness" that most internet users suffer from (myself being one of the victims...)

sajjano
was any body able to listen to the songs and decipher the lyrics..

sat sri akal


Name: sir sardar rajeev singh sahib :-) -
E-mail: fakeemail@donotspam.com
Comments:   saeed sahib..
tuhaada bahut bahut shukriya.. tusi tae menoo S-Brigade the sardar banaa chadyaa jae.. tuhaada ditta naa pad kae tae mera seena ful kae doona ho gaya jae... jarranawazi daa bahut bhaut shukriya...:-) rab tuhada bhala kare

farhat khan saheb
very nicely said.. i would like to add one thing here...i firmly believe that we have to modify the concept of "tolerance"... methinks, the word tolerance somehow exudes a sentiment of condescending... we should make an effort to realize that we are not merely tolerating the other religion but infact hold it to be TRUE.. infact, as true as our own.. then slowly all the other misgivings will start to disappear gradually..

it is noteworthy that religion flows in our veins as it were.. which is a good thing, i must say.. unlike other nations, our subcontinent has held our sufis, pirs, gurus to be the true beacons of our land.. our village folk might not know the difference between socialism and capitalism but can certainly enlighten you with wonderful religious insight.. in a land made holy with the gurus and faqirs, religion will indeed play an important role.. so, joint festivals and melas will promote mutual respect and understanding... rupinder jee
considering your passion for punjabi and your unlflinching efforts to promote it, i was gravely disppointed at reading your last post, lamenting "prejudice" etc... i am hoping that it was not a well deliberated post.. i would be so glad if you could confirm that it was just a case of " keyboard trigger happiness" that most internet users suffer from (myself being one of the victims...) sajjano
was any body able to listen to the songs and decipher the lyrics..

sat sri akal


Name: Akhilesh -
E-mail: HiTMaN9497@aol.com
My URL: http://www.lokpunjab.com/
Location: ,      Europe
Comments:   Someone posted this link at the lokpunjab forum:

Punjab University - Punjabi Department, Lahore:
http://www.punjabi-department.cjb.net

Maybe someone at APNA can help them out with the site?


Name: Akhilesh -
E-mail: HiTMaN9497@aol.com
My URL: http://www.lokpunjab.com/
Location: ,      Europe
Comments:   Sat Sri Akaal

I agree with DullaBhatti Ji regarding joint celebrations of religious and Punjabi festivals. I think it was not so long ago that many religious and cultural festivals were jointly celebrated by Sikhs and Punjabi Hindus, but that seems not to be the case anymore. Well, not many Hindus showed up at Gurpurb of Guru Nanak last November at my Gurdwara. Also, Vaisakhi seems to have become a festival which many Sikhs claim sole property over even though it is far older than 1699 and is really a harvesting festival. (Birth of the Khalsa isnt "Vaisakhi", they just fell on the same day)

I read occasionally on the Tribune of festivals like 'Lohri' and 'Teej' being promoted in East Punjab, but im sot sure how wide-spread these are.

Some years ago on the Hindu Dussehra festival the Hindu Mandir near me (Almost exclusively run and attended by Punjabis back then) used to rent out a park for their celebrations. There was a fun-fair with rides, etc and a stage-play of the Ramayana going on which lasted a few hours if i remember correctly. The night ended with the burning of the Ravan statue and then a pretty decent firework display. I dont think they have done this in years now (to my knowledge) largely because the Mandir is now more of a gujurati place or may have even shut down because there are not many South Asians in the area. Anyway, fairs/festivals are always a good way to bring people together.

There is a good listing of some festivals which can be jointly celebrated by all Punjabis if you scroll down to the bottom of the page here:
http://www.punjab.gov.pk/education/national.htm

Suman Ji, Chaste Punjabi is standard Punjabi, or Punjabi most common in written form (someone correct me if im wrong).

Tayyab, I dont think there is a 'Patialvi' dialect as such. I thought it was just 'Malwa' dialect?

Rupe, There is no bias towards Punjabi in Shahmukhi on this site in my opinion. Remember that there are plenty of sites in Gurmukhi but how often is it that you come across something on the net which is in Shahmukhi? Also, Gurmukhi is in no danger of becoming defunct unlike Shahmukhi. Its only natural that APNA spends more time on promoting Punjabi in Shahmukhi as it is in West Punjab where the language has fallen behind and continues to fall. I personally cant see the prejudice or even 'un-secular' nature of this site. Quite the opposite, APNA has been very good in keeping a secular environment. All other Punjabi sites on the net seem to be linked to Sikhism or just portray Punjabi history as only really starting with Sikh Gurus and Banda Singh Bahadur...

Ps, some articles to share:
People from Pindi
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040210/edit.htm#5

Punjabi nationalism: myth or reality?
http://jang.com.pk/thenews/feb2004-daily/10-02-2004/oped/o1.htm


Name: Arvind -
E-mail: xarvind@andrew.cmu.edu
Location: Pittsburgh, PA     USA
Comments:   Just my curiosity, does gulzar write in Punjabi? If he does I will be very happy to read some of his poems! Arvind


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   No interest in Western born Punjabies seem to have met with no interest in progressive technical terms in Punjabi either
Theek hai phir
Ek hor sarvaal phir
How comes there are no tasveers of modern Punjabi writers? I think in addition to the classics, there should be portraits of Modern Muslim, Sikh , Hindu and other Punjabi writers. Such an eclectic diplay will show the secular nature of this site.
As it stands, the overweight of Shahmukhi and English articles to gurumukhi ones, already suggests a prejudice.
Tuhadaa kee kehaal hai?
Perhaps pictures of Gulzar, Shiv Kumar Batalvi, Amrita Pretum, Nanak Singh and Munir Niazi?


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
My URL: http://www.5abi.com/vishesh/090103_5abi-virlap(gurminder).htm
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   interesting article


Name: Shahid -
E-mail: mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:   kaurasach jee:

I had intended to hit hearts with this cho-misra. Looks I missed and it 'hit right on the nail'. kil nuN choT tay nahiN laggi na!

Not really; from your comment I know I did not miss - kil ee dil ay. Thnx for s'lahan (with Saeed's new S discovery).


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   Ranjit seems acceptable choice for both sides.


Name: Saeed -
E-mail: saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Sir Sardar Rajeev Singh Sahib,

Bhaa Jee, TuhaaDey kol taaN agey ee batheray S neyN. TuseeN taaN apney aap nooN "S Brigade" wich shaamil ee naheeN sagoN aggey aggey samjho. Apne naaN nooN Rajeev ee rehn deyo. Ehnoo Sajeev banaoN* dee loR naheeN. Vekho naa lafz (shaba) Sir wich S, "Sardar" wich vee S, Singh vich vee S, Sahib ya Saheb wich s te sabh toN wadhyaa gal ke lafz Sikh wich vee S, hor meyN likh naheeN je sakdaa ke kithey kithey S aoNdaa ey. SaaDey wal sabh toN waDDee caste Seyd naal S lagdaa ey. eys laee ghabran dee loR naheeN. S-Brigade ee sabh toN tagRaa ey. Shaalaa nazar naa lagey.


Name: farhat -
E-mail: farhatkhan5@hotmail.com
Location: chicago, il     USA
Comments:   In response to Jagjit ji's comment about celebrating various holidays ,I agree with you about 14 and 15 August. It is very sad that most people of the Sub-continent have very littlt knowledge about their cultural heritage and somehow religion has beccome synonomous with culture,regional and seasonal holidays and festivals like Basant have been ignored.Untill and Unless we educate our youth about culture and not just religion which is a small componant part of religion,events like Punjabi Mela will have religious flavor. Parents have to make an effort to teach their childern the universal values of respect and tolerance. Unfortunately most people are so preoccupied with their version of the truth that they refuse to acknowledge other truths. With all due respect to all the paricipants on this site with all the fervor and love of Punjab I see the evidence of division which stems from religious differences. Unfortunately these differences overshadow the similarities. It would be nice if every one celebratd Eid with their Muslim friends and Diwali and vasakhi with Hindu and Sikh friends. Similiarities ought to be appreciated and differences ought to be celebrated.


Name: Tayyab -
E-mail: zan_ali34@hotmail.com
My URL:
Comments:   kaurasach ji, Yes it is the same in W Punjab about finding one's background by listening to one's dialect. You can tell which area of Punjab a person comes from by the way they speak. I have often been asked if I'm from Sargodha when I speak my dialect. About East Punjabis retaining their dialcts in West Punjab: Yes, people do retain their dialcts. I know famililes who speak their E punjabi dialects but I can't tell which dialects they speak. My Maternal Grandmother is from Patiala but I'm not sure whether she can speak patialvi. She's lived in Lahore since she was married which was before partition. Maybe she's lost her dialect. When she peakes it sounds like she is speaking majhi but perhaps I can't tell because I've never heard Patialvi but my mother certainly speaks in Majhi. By the way I know somebody who is E Punjabi and speaks our Sargodhi dialect. Does anybody know what our dialect is called? I've asked my parents but they don't seem to know.


Name: rajeev -
E-mail: fakeemail@donotspam.com
Comments:   i think the links from my earlier posts did not work.. try this instead.. and then listen to the songs.. sorry about that..

click here


Name: rajeev -
E-mail: fakeemail@donotspam.com
Comments:   mitron.. hun tae raunak changee lagi hoi hai... i am having a great time reading soooo many posts after a long time and seeing everybody back..

i think that some of you music buffs will like the following two numbers.. by the way, i have an ulterior motive in this which i'll explain little later in my post (hee hee hee.. wicked laughter of prem chopra!)

** pehli cheez is sung by pandit c r vyas.. a well respected, pukka marathi bambbaiyaa who can barely speak even hindi.. here he sings in punjabi "mendi khabar na liti jaani yaar ve".. pandit ji sings

** doojee cheez is sung by none other than the legend bade ghulam ali khan saab.. listen to the ustad do some talking for first 45-50 seconds before singing "menderra yaar avi".. it is a gem in my humble ( read biased! )opinion.. the mehfils used to be predominantly mixed (rasiks from various states) and hence his urdu/hindi "shoptalk".. ustad ji sings

tae hun mera ulterior motive..(repeat prem chopra laughter here..hee hee hee!).. could some one with more discerning ears please try to decipher the rest of the lyrics for me... i could not figure it out.. almost like decoding some thing... enjoyed it thoroughly though..

saeed bhaaji, main apnaa naa rajeev ton sanjeev rakhwaan de soch rehaa haan, taaki main vee S-Brigade wich shaamil ho sakaan...:-):-):-)

rab rakha...khush ravho..


Name: Amandeep Singh -
E-mail: snghamun@yahoo.com
Location: Berkeley, CA     USA
Comments:   Just wondering, is it still possible to listen to music files on this site?


Name: kaurasach -
E-mail: kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:   Shahid
Your couplet hit it right on the nail.


Name: P S Kahlon -
E-mail: pkahlon@tnsate.edu
Comments:   Kaurasach Ji:

I am back and read your comments.I have respect for your view point but We have just difference of opinions on this ,that is all. Nabha and Patiala had problems with each other than with THE Maharaja who was always willing to mediate their disputes.

Sardarz Ji:

The three most influential person in Lahore Darbar were a Muslim for foreign affairs, a Hidu for revenue affairs and a Sikh called DeoRiwala (kind of chief of staff-literally gate keeper). His generals were Skhs, Hindus, Muslims and French. I am not sure if majority were Sikhs (I like to think not). Those who commited treason were Teja Singh and Lal Singh ( Tej Bhan and Lal Bhan from UP) and Dogras. Although his coin indicated Sikh Kingdom ( persian inscription did not bother me), he ruled as a Punjabi. That was my whole point.

All I am saying is that if Punjabis treat each other with respect, we can all be happy and have pride in our common culture and language that will come later. It is divisive nature of people that gives upperhand to fundamentalists. And yes fundmentalists are in every religion. Most people don't carry hatred but they usually are not very vocal. All of us have personal friendship with people of other faiths but many of us literally hate people as a group. I was amased that some of the most segregationists in USA have personal liking for individul blacks but they hate them as a group. One of my closest friend is a Punjabi Pakistani but the name Hindustan gets him riled up. This is my two cents worth


Name: Shahid -
E-mail: mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:   .... razee neN

m'ran maaran dee wekho reet keetee kiNj tazee neN
m'reejay jo sh'heed akhwan maran walay ghazee neN
m'seetaN maNdraN tay girjiaN wich ghol pay SHAHID
kamal paya ay sochaN nuN l'Rawan walay raazee neN

Shahid


Name: suman -
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   What, exactly, is "chaste" Punjabi?

Jagjit ji. Wonderful idea. A few months ago we decided that we are going to begin having an annual basant party starting 2004 ( great minds think alike!). But to do it on a large scale and in the way you are thinking would be something worthwhile. Which day or time period is basant?


Name: suman -
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   What, exactly, is "chaste" Punjabi?

Jagjit ji. Wonderful idea. A few months ago we decided that we are going to begin having an annual basant party starting 2004 ( great minds think alike!). But to do it on a large scale and in the way you are thinking would be something worthwhile. Which day or time period is basant?


Name: kaurasach -
E-mail: kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:   There is good coverage on Punjabi in the JANG paper latest Sunday issue.
I guess this piece in there gives some credence to the "sweeping" statement I made before.
Dr. Tariq Rehman, who teaches linguistics at Quaid-i-Azam University, Islamabad, made some pertinent observations in his speech. No language can flourish unless it becomes the official language of the state or province it represents, was the sum of his argument. "If there were no jobs attached to Punjabi, it will not flourish," he said, and gave the example of Persian and English to bring home his point: Persian which remained a court language for about eight hundred years vanished when British conquered India and introduced English for higher level jobs and Urdu for lowly jobs. "Punjabi Muslims did not support Punjabi. It was only Sikhs who supported Punjabi with a Gurmukhi script," he boldly declared.


Name: DullaBhatti -
E-mail: jagjit_naushehrvi@yahoo.com
Comments:   Some good discussions going on. but here is something came to my mind while reading about basant in Pakistan last night. Indians and Pakistanis who immigrated to USA/Canada etc usually celebrate following festivals...14th of Aug and 15th of Aug with more fervor and pomp than any other festival they brought from back home..they also celebrate Diwali...mostly Hindus(I have noticed that Sikh interest in Diwali in North America is on decline)..Vaisakhi..mostly Sikhs...Eid exclusively Muslims...Note that all of the above festivals are either ultra nationalistic or religious.. out these 14th and 15th Agug takes the cake...there are more committees and groups collecting money to celeberate these than there are total number of Indians and Pakistanis in USA...and may I ask what is the significance of these two days for the Indians and Pakistanis who have chosen to immigrate to a new country and whose next generations are going to stay in this new country? None.

If we cxan celberate above festivals without their any advantage to our next generations in USA/Canada, instead of disadvatnage of creating the feuds between people from two countries...why not celebrate something that can benefit both sides. Here is my idea. None of the above groups celebrate Basant in USA and Canada..atleast not on a significant scale. I suggest this festival could be good secular festival to bring in contact at least Punjabis from both countries. I imagine Basant festivals in parks or open space in USA/Canada cities where a Punjabi stage is setup...singers and performers from both countries invited. [There has been Punjabi festivals also liek Punjabi Mela in Yubacity..but Pakistanis show little interest in it...I don't blame it on them entirely because it has turned, over the last few years, into a Sikhi Mela insstead of Punjabi Mela] so..in this Basant Mela no talk about countries back home, no politicians invited, no speeches, no religious ceremoney etc etc.. If possible flying of kites...at least a demonstration match or something for people to watch..people dress entirely in popular Punjabi attires..vendor shops selling all kind of articles, food, clothing, books related to cultural and language of Punjab...absolutely no preaching material distributed. I think something like that will rock. It will attract all Punjabis regardless of religion and nationality. What you think?


Name: kaurasach -
E-mail: kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:   Mr Kahlon,
I read an article recently in a Pakistani paper that labeled Ranjit Singh as political entrepeneur. There is some truth to that. His best interest was to keep all his subjects happy. He wrested Lahore from Bhangis with aid of muslims - who weren't happy under the Bhangi rule.
Sikhs who till Ranjit Singh's rule were fiercely independent didn't like his hoarding of entire Punjab at the expense of their independent estates. That is why some were driven to the British camp (Patiala and Kapurthala and Bahawalpur estates). Others awaited in the shadows to take revenge. That is why all of his heirs fell to intrigue.
Remember that Sukarchakia was a minor misl compared to others. Had he not kept this political balance in courts, he wouldn't have survived so long.
Either he learned from British or had a natural knack to keep multi cultural or national force. So one force cannot get too strong for him to control. That is why he brought in Muslims, Dogras, and European soldiers - who played pivotal role in the aftermath
His ideas made him master of Punjab, and helped him maintain it. But, the same ideas undid his kingdom in short time.
History teaches us differently. Usually history is penned by self interests biased towards the regime. When things don't add up, I start questioning these historical "facts" instead of repeating them like so many masses do.


Name: P S Kahlon -
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Comments:   Brief comments:

KAURASACH: We are just expressing our opinions and I think the greatest contribution of Ranjit Singh was that he brought Hindu/Sikh/Muslim together as Punjabis. I did not think it existed before or after. This is just my opinion. It probably was a calculated move on his part not to bring in issues that were divisive ( may be language culd have been one of them). He was humble in many ways was as, Aziz-U- din's diary suggest. When Akali Phula Singh standing in the balcony shouted at Maharaja,"OEY Kania tainooN eh jhota (his elephant) Kiney Ditta ae". Ranjit Singh replied, "sir it is a gift from you". He was a genious but you can call him illiterate because he did not have formal education. Guru Nanak did not have formal education except a few lessons from a village Maulvi. That is why in Satyarth Prakash he is called "Dhuria".

Ranjit Singh's weakness if I have to find was polygamy and rituals that some people made him do that were against Guru Nanak's teaching. Some of those resulted in the down fall of the kingdom besides other factors. His contributions making Punjabees proud of themselves is the one that interst me. The Pujabi dignity was back. Remember the Som Nath Mandar's Portals that are now hang in Harmandar Sahib were brought back to save our diginity.

TYYAB: I agree that Punjabee should be written in both scripts. As I pointed out ealier that Punjabi was written in both scripts before Partition. In order to get BA degree in Punjabi you could write in either script. Text books for Giani ( BA in Punjabi) were in both scripts. It is my opinion, however, that in Pakistan the script should remain Shahmukhi considering the current political situation. It will harm the cause of Punjabi to think of Gurmukhi as a script there.Besides Punjabi as a language we need to see our selves as Punjabi people first. Some of us are brain washed to think that Punjabi is an underdeveloped and language of illiterates. It is our fault and not the enemies of Punjabi. It hurts me that some of us make divisive statements. The followers of Guru Nanak, Baba Farid cannot see people as different.

I NEED TO GO TO CLASS AND WILL CONTINUE> RABB RAKHA


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   Just an idea. As I am an Accountant by trade, perhaps I should investigate how many actual Punjabi words are used ( or words from Urdu / Hindi) as Business concepts. If We are to compete with the west we must prevent Engilsh Compleate invasiveness by introducing these words.
Perhaps other Punjabi Accountants from West Punjab and East Punjab can collaborate with me, and we can come up with an acceptable list which APNA can try to suggest to both communities?
More importantly if you are a Scientist, Computer expert etc, out there, then you guys should do the same in your fields, and perhaps APNA can then produce a modern Technical Dictionary in Shahmukhi and Gurmukhi?
WHat do you guys think?
Rupe


Name: Akhilesh -
E-mail: HiTMaN9497@aol.com
My URL: http://www.lokpunjab.com/
Location: ,      Europe
Comments:   Sat Sri Akaal

I dont remember where i read this, but i have read before that it was an almost impossible task for Maharaja Ranjit Singh to simply introduce Punjabi as a court language as everything had already been done in Persian and had been for many centuries. I believe that most educated Punjabis were bi-lingual in Punjabi and Persian. Guru Gobind Singh even composed many pieces in Persian rather than Punjabi, such as Zafarnama (Letter of victory) also Guru Nanak wrote in Punjabi, Persian and Braj languages which all appear in the Guru Granth Sahib. (Actually, I dont know if Aurengzeb spoke Punjabi so that might explain why Guru Gobind Singh wrote Zafarnama in Persian..)

Perhaps had things been different Persian would have eventually been replaced by Punjabi as the official language, maybe it just needed more time for the switch over to happen. From reading the articles posted on the main-page it would seem that no one did as much damage to Punjabi as the British did. It was the British who even killed off Persian in the subcontinent. Im trying hard to think of one place the British did not loot and destroy. Half the Worlds flashpoints today seem to be in former British colonies which had been abruptly abandoned, divided or combined with other colonies to make a new country. (Israel/Palestine, Ireland, Nigeria, Kashmir, India etc)

Anyway, i wouldnt be surprised if this issue on Punjabi scripts existed back in those days too.

Shahid Ji you mentioned that the original script for Punjabi was Persian/Shahmukhi. I had been under them impression that Punjabi was first written in Persian by Baba Farid, but for perhaps 200 years before that it was written in Landa script (Which i have posted an image of in the forum) and continued to be written in Landa along with Persian until Guru Angad Dev developed Gurmukhi script from it.

Im in complete agreement with Tayyab Ji that all signboards etc in Punjab should be in both scripts. Or at least books like the example set here:
"Pak writer recalls horror of Partition"
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040208/punjab1.htm#8

Sardarz, im sure there has been at least one Punjabi prime minister of India? (Inder Kumar Gujral?)

Ps, I think it is better that Hindi is not the official language of India, especially since its speakers tried to force the language on the Punjabis, Tamils, Assamese, Bodos etc shortly after India was made. Or at least, force/pressure the ethnic minority peoples to adopt Devanagri script for their languages. (Which they are still trying to do with many of the tribal peoples of the North East and have done with Dogri speakers).

kaurasach ji, I would also like to see all regional dialects preserved and flourish in their respective areas, altho before i learn "Majhi" tongue id like to speak chaste Punjabi. Regarding migrations during partition, i believe my family still mainly speaks in the Majhi dialect they spoke in Gujranwala/Lahore (Older generation definitely does). But in saying that many of my relatives now speak a kind of mish-mash of Punjabi and Hindi, or just flip from one language to the other.

Also, i dont think there is such a gap between East and West Punjabi. As far as i am aware, the dialect spoken in Amritsar is closer to that of Lahore than it is to say Jalandhar or Ludhiana.


Name: kaurasach -
E-mail: kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:   Not only I want Punjabi preserved, I want different dialects flourish. When I was growing up, one could easily tell from which tehsil or village one hailed just by listening to their talk.
Nowadays, with mass migrations between Punjabs and within E Punjab,and urbanization, the different dialects are being replaced with one standard language.
A question to West Punjabis - Is that the case in West Punjab too. Can you still tell the persons "pichaa" by their boli. and do the people who migrated during 47 still speak and preserve their dialects.
The reason I am asking is that I met a Pak family who were 3rd generation but spoke E Punjabi.
The business communities from Multan and Rawalpindi who are now settled in Panipat, HP and flourish as cloth merchants speak Pothohari, Jhangvi and Multani. Those who settled in E Punjab have been assimilated.


Name: kaurasach -
E-mail: kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:   Regarding Ranjit Singh
He used to be my hero,
Since he is the only Punjabi Hero in centuries and due to his secularism, he is admired by all faiths. Punjabis have portrayed him in good light. It is obvious that he was a good monarch.
However, he had a lot of shortcomings.
One was, his failure to introduce and promote Punjabi as court and literal language of Punjab. Without a solid popular and official base, it was easy and an obvious choice to bring in Urdu as the official language by the British.
One reason could be inferiority complex and imitation - I posted about this earlier. For example, the Russian czar to bring himself on par with other European courts ordered French to be his court language. In his mind, he thought using French will make him more important. Same thing with Ranjit Singh. He was illiterate, and wanted recongnition like the Czar. It is well noted fact that he was easily impressed with foreigners and their ways.

Had he made Punjabi official, and court language, not only had well trenched Punjabi survived in authenticity, also, a lot of todays political problems based on linguistics not arisen.
I know it is hard to swallow this critique of a great Punjabi, but rational and analytical thinking about something makes it better in the long run.


Name: Rashid Chaudhry -
E-mail: rashid313@yahoo.com
Location: Pindi,      Pakistan
Comments:   Saeed Ji! I fear you might ask that all S-less contributors should quit the game (though we can form an alliance of ‘non-S’ Punjabi lovers to outnumber S contributions on this forum). However, it was an interesting revelation. I personally owe thanks to Saeed Ji for introducing this site so I am not jealous of him and other pioneers who initiated this project.

Sameer Ji! Thanks for complements. I did not deny the existence of Urdu in united Punjab. All I wanted to say that Urdu after being declared the sole medium of instruction in educational institutions of Punjab in lower grades halted the growth of Punjabi, leading Punjabis into doubts regarding its potential of carrying the message across if the degree of sophistication of the intended message compounded. I virtually see no problem with Punjabi language on this count rather it can be conveniently said of it that Punjabi is rich enough to serve as a communication tool. Attachment of comparatively less import to Punjabi is a bitter reality. You rightly pointed out the prospects for a ‘renaissance’ of Punjabi language in W Punjab with the help of factors mentioned by you.


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   Tayyab Ji,
Here is a small sample list from some of those words, I have placed on Punjabikosh.com
It would be nice to see them in Shahmukhi too. What is everyone's opinion on these?( I see no one has interested in Western born Punjabis, so I thought I'd rekindle a new conversation based on Tayyab Ji's comments)
Some of these words are influenced by Hindi or Urdu. Others by other languages, while others are purely new.
Alien Bejaag
Ameoba Sookhampraanhee
Aphid BootaaJooN
Armadillo Gaindee Kutha
Calculator Ginhtaree
Chain Saw Perh larhee aarraa
Dinosaur Korhh Kirlaa
Electric Drill Oauto Varmaa
Freezer Yakhkh Khanna
Hard Drive DataKhanna
Keyboard Shabad Patrhaa Lobster Langosta ( Jheengha)
Lifeguard Saukaaristaa
Roundabout ( Traffic) Sarhak Chakkra
Sea Lion Jal Singh
Warp Speed ( Sci Fic/ Physics) Noor Karhaakaa
Great White Shark Samundaree Baagharh
Rupe


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   Tayyab Ji,
Here is a small sample list from some of those words, I have placed on Punjabikosj.com
It would be nice to see them in Shahmukhi too. What is everyone's opinion on these?( I see no one has interested in Western born Punjabis, so I thought I'd rekindle a new conversation based on Tayyab Ji's comments)
Some of these words are influenced by Hindi or Urdu. Others by other languages, while others are purely new.
Alien Bejaag
Ameoba Sookhampraanhee
Aphid BootaaJooN
Armadillo Gaindee Kutha
Calculator Ginhtaree
Chain Saw Perh larhee aarraa
Dinosaur Korhh Kirlaa
Electric Drill Oauto Varmaa
Freezer Yakhkh Khanna
Hard Drive DataKhanna
Keyboard Shabad Patrhaa Lobster Langosta ( Jheengha)
Lifeguard Saukaaristaa
Roundabout ( Traffic) Sarhak Chakkra
Sea Lion Jal Singh
Warp Speed ( Sci Fic/ Physics) Noor Karhaakaa
Great White Shark Samundaree Baagharh
Rupe


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   Dear Kaurasach Ji,
Thanks for reply. Yes There are hundreds of plaves teaching Gurumuki, but due to personel circumstances I have not the time or means to go to them.
However the question I was posing was, is there anyone else out there who id born in the west but writes in Punjabi?
Rupe


Name: Javed Zaki -
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Location: East Lansing, MI     USA
Comments:   Sajno. Apni pehli kahani "Pehle Pehr DiyaaN GallaaN" da pehla safa (page).

“Pehle peher DiyaaN GallaaN”

Joon da maheene di garmi, har shay ghabree ghabree jeyee, keeh bandde kih janoar, inj piya lagda si jeviN moasam nuN 110 degree da bokhaar chaRhya hove. SaRak te duur duur tikar kisse jee-jaan da nishaan neiN si. Kam-kaar waale vi apne rachh-hathiyaar chhadd, dokaanaaN ander sooraj di agg maThhi hovan de intezaar vich oNghlaa rehey san, sawaaey baabe Khuda Bakhash de. Oh apni dokaan de ba’ar buDDhe boRh de thhaRe naal dho laa juttiyaan gaNdan banaaNda vich rujjha hoya si. SaThhaaN de payTe, pittal rangge mooNh te chiTTi daaRhee te sir te chaTTi pagg jidi laR paseena ponjh ponjh ke meli kocheli ho geyee si. AiDi omar hon magroN vi ohde jusse de karRe-pan di jhal salamat si te lagda si je jawaani vich chaNgga ghabraaTa hosi. Per saara saara din lattaan dohriyaan kar te sir suTT kam karan paroN ohde lakk vich thoRa jiya kub jiya nikal aaya si. OThhen-beThhen te challen lei ohnuN chhoti jei daNgori da sahaara leyna peNda. Kidi kidi nameeN shaameeN apna waleevaaN laweTT apni dokaan ander ja do garaanwaaN khaa roaN vich aa ke Nazaam de dhole da karwaaT shoroo kar da te aale-dowaale de bibhar buDDhRe vi aa baThhak da rang jamaaNde. Koee roanki buDDhRa hath nacha ke bolda “Bakhshoo, laaeeN naaN zara Nazaam de dhole da karkaaT”, te Baba Khuda Bakhash apne kan te hath dhar apni bharweeN awaaz de nagaare khaRkaaNda e,

“ou ou, kaal boleNdi
Naarad sadd pokaar da
LahoruN nasse baraan Daakoo
Jail khana bhanyoo neN sarkaar da
Jabra te Lachhoo, choraan de mohri
JinhaaN da jhaT bigaahR da
Phhola Singh piya aahNda, lukna Raviyoo paar
DahDha rajya malik soneNda e Ravi toN paar da
Hikko khevi Tur peye neN
Samyaana kar hathyaar da
Phhola Singh piya aahnda khatrio! Tohaade gahr jaNj kavele dhukki e
TosaaN aahar na katoee roTi te daal da
Khatri da potra aggon piya aahNda e, ethe beh waNj O Phhola sehaaN
MeiN pata kar leyaana agle bazaar da
Agle bazaaroN aandiyaan neN kuNjiyaaN, Phhola singh noN aa phhaRamda
Booha laahya Phhola Singh ne, koee antt na karam de be-shomaar da
Bannh gadoriyaaN leyyaaN choNhaaN baNdiyaaN bhaar ghttyo ne baNde de maNjane da bhaar da
Turr peye ne agar pachhaR ho ke
Raah vi malyo ne Dulle di baar da”

(Eh dhola waahak kavi Noori kamboke da e)

Dhole di ik ik len sunn dojiyaaN di ragaaN de lahoo di sharlaaT chaRhe ChanaaN de haRh di ghumkaar soneen lag peNdi e. Ohnaan de jusse de aNg laNg kasse jeye lagan lag peNde neN. Bibhar buDDhyaaN diyaaN shaklaaN jawani de jhal da lashkaara bannan lag poNdiyaan neN. Baba Neyta maNji toN oThh apni doNgoori naal hawa vich gatka jiya khedan lag peNda e. OhdiyaaN akhaaN deeve di roashni vich bagyaaRh waNgooN lishkan lag pendiyaaN neN. Ohdi ratRi pagRi khull ke ohde gall vich aa digdi e par oh mansoori jayee musti vich kookda e

“Oh vaila such si
Oh vaila haq si
Nazaam Lohaar bar-haq si
Phhola SayaaN yaar da gooRha sajjan binaan-shak si

Baba Dulla! “Balle balle waaee, Nayte diyaaN bulkaariyaan, te ghumkaariyaaN”. Oni der teekar Nayta jhummar jiya paan lag piya si.

Javed Zaki


Name: Sardarz -
E-mail: sardarz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Kahlon Ji,

Your inference about Punjabi not being court Language of Ranjit Singh is right and could be one of many reasons why he did not to do so.
A similar case to Ranjit Singh’s kingdom could be that of the Nation of INDIA, even after 50 Plus years of independence the National Language of India is ENGLISH, when one can argue that all the Prime Ministers of India since Independence have been BRAHMINS/Hindus from Hindi speaking belt of North India (Except total 8 years of Morarji Desai, Narsimha Rao). Still they could not declare HINDI national language, reason being there are 15 major Languages, which do you put down to bring Hindi up, so its Politically safe to give the status, to a foreign Language, which could also be justified on economic basis, English being the language spoken by majority of developed world.. Very similar to Ranjit Singhs time, Persian would have been NEUTRAL choice, when Persian claimed to me mother language of Punjabi,Urdu,Pashto,Dari,Baluchi etc and also it being the language of the Imperial court of Persia.

Also Ranjit Singh’s kingdom had a short span of existence, a total of 40 some years ever since he started to consolidate the MISL’s to the time he died. Not enough to ignite passion for a national Language.
I am not even sure if we can call his kingdom as being first PUNJABI kingdom, since his court Language was Persian and the coins he struck were not in Punjabi either, though it could qualify as a SIKH kingdom, if we want to base it on the fact that the King followed the religion of Sikhism, but then again how can you quantify that, since he had majority of non-Sikhs at helm of affairs in major responsibilities with the exception of his armed forces….

Regards.


Name: Sameer -
E-mail: sameer123@hotmail.com
Comments:  
:Tayyab Sahib: Having two or three (roman panjabi being the third) is not really a problem in modern age. All one needs is simple software to convert one to another or shahmukhi to roman and gurmukhi to roman lexicon. Additionally one with more literature written should be learned by people interested in reading. Anyway I am copying an item from today's The Times, a Lahore based daily.

Punjabis want better relations with Indians

LAHORE: Noted personalities from the Pakistani Punjab on Sunday stressed the need for easy visas, soft borders restrictions, the promotion of the Punjabi language and better cultural and agricultural ties with the Indian Punjab.

Around 40 journalists, politicians from various parties including many members of the National Assembly, traders, academics, artists, lawyers, farmers, social workers and peace activists gave their viewpoints at a meeting arranged by the Pakistan chapter of the South Asia Free Media Association (SAFMA) at a local hotel. They said the media had a pivotal role in “enhancing the circle of the Indo-Pakistan friendship campaign by presenting a clear picture of the scene and trying to remove biases”. They said that both governments were “enemies of peace to remain in power”.

The experts stressed the need to set up a post at the Wagah border to facilitate travellers from both sides. They also said that both countries should cooperate in films, sports and cultural activities to improve contact between peoples. They said thousands of people should visit both countries on festivals like Basant and Besakhi.

“We shouldn’t exclude people and narrow the scope of the Punjab to Punjab relations,” Imtiaz Alam from SAFMA said. He announced that the consultation – a similar one was being held in the Indian Punjab by SAFMA’s Indian chapter - would later be evolved into the Punjab Consultation Forum on Pakistan and India Cooperation.

Mr Alam said a SAFMA delegation had met Punjab Chief Minister Chaudhry Pervaiz Elahi and he had assured them of his cooperation to run the campaign. “We will never out step the state boundaries of India-Pakistan relations,” he said, adding a representative delegation, supported by the Punjab government, would visit the Indian Punjab with “concrete proposals” in March.

MNA Shah Mahmood Qureshi urged cooperation in agricultural research, marketing and technology. “Punjab is a big constituency in promoting peace and normalisation with India,” he added. Mr Qureshi said that the two countries could easily share expertise in agriculture because they were in a common ecological zone.

Economist Salman Shah said the Indian government had proposed the creation of a political and economical union like the European Union. “This sort of idea has become a motive to move forward the friendship campaign,” he said, and demanded a visa-less policy between the two countries.

MNA Ishaq Khakwani said both governments should initially cooperate in education, health and tourism. “These links will directly benefit the public on both sides,” he said. He cited the possible benefits of a variety of cheap drugs and high quality seeds that could be imported from India.

MNA Aitzaz Ahsan said there trade would benefit both countries. “Pakistan will get the largest market in the world in a competition of quality, standard and price,” he said.

Politician Syeda Abida Hussain called for the promotion of the Punjabi culture, especially the language. “The eras of cold wars all over the world has ended and India and Pakistan should also come out of this phase.” She said the role of women’s organisations was also highly important.

Former Pakistan Bar Council president Hamid Khan said that the Punjab-to-Punjab consultation was “inevitable”. MNA Rai Azizullah Khan urged both government to “simplify the visa process”. Peace activist Tahira Mazhar Ali Khan said the governments “didn’t want peace to keep themselves in power”.

Asad Naqi and artist Madiha Gauhar stressed the need to promote cultural ties and broader people to people contacts. Journalists Ahmad Bashir, Hussain Naqi, Munoo Bhai, Anjum Rasheed and several other distinguished people attended the session.

Meeting with CM: In the earlier meeting, Mr Elahi told the SAFMA delegation that Pakistani writers, intellectuals and journalists had an important part to play in establishing a lasting peace in South Asia.

Mr Elahi said that better relations between India and Pakistan would open up new avenues of trade and tourism between the two countries. He said that the Punjab government was ready to provide the infrastructure needed for greater trade and tourism.

He said that Lahore was an important cultural centre of the Punjab and therefore revolutionary measures were being taken for the conservation and revival of its cultural heritage. —Staff Report


Name: Sardarz -
E-mail: sardarz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Saeed Ji

You have brought up a interesting fact, even falsely though, as it may seem, on this forum most contributors have names starting with “S”….
I have observed this before,even different languages like Punjabi and English have more pages devoted to “S” or “Sassa” in case of a dictionary or Yellow pages
When majority of our human babies (White/balck/Brown…), utter their first words, as “M” / “Maa” for mother….
One wonders how come “M” takes a back seat and “S” takes over while we grow up…

Regards.


Name: Tayyab -
E-mail: zan_ali34@hotmail.com
My URL:
Comments:   Hi. Please don't get me wrong but all I'm saying is that if we keep taking words from other languages especially Urdu and Hindi in a few years time people will say punjabi is just a dialect of Hindi/Urdu, just like some people have already predicted. I think we should NOT replace punjabi words with Hindi/Urdu words. Here is a good example: I've been learning German for 4 years now. One thing I extremly like about it is that it does NOT take words from other languages but makes it's own words. For example a refrigerator is called einen Kühlschrank which literally means a cool cupboard. Similarly the word for aeroplane is Flugzeug whcih means flying stuff, the word for train is Zug because that's the noise that trains made in the olden days, zug zug zug. The word for cotten is Baumwolle literally meaning tree wool. In French it's the same story they have words (french words) for a copmuter, a copmuter printer, a laptop, an answering machine and so on. What I'm trying to say is that they don't just take words from other languages and "enrich" their languages when they can make words for the objects in their own language. We should do the same in Punjabi. We should make our own words just like Rupe has laboriuously done so. Another point I want to make is In East Punjab EXTREMELY sanskritised vocabualry is used whcih is beyond the undersatnding of West Punjabis. We should not replace Punjabi words with Urdu/Hindi words where we can. And if we ARE going to have some loan words they should be included in BOTH Punjabis so we can understand each other. In Punjab different regions have different words (same as American ans British English) like niane and bachhe (children) and thaN and jaa (place). All punjabis can understand that. But if there are going to be new words in Punjbai we should all know them.


Name: Tayyab -
E-mail: zan_ali34@hotmail.com
Comments:   Hi. Please don't get me wrong but all I'm saying is that if we keep taking words from other languages especially Urdu and Hindi in a few years time people will say punjabi is just a dialect of Hindi/Urdu, just like some people have already predicted. I think we should NOT replace punjabi words with Hindi/Urdu words. Here is a good example: I've been learning German for 4 years now. One thing I extremly like about it is that it does NOT take words from other languages but makes it's own words. For example a refrigerator is called einen Kühlschrank which literally means a cool cupboard. Similarly the word for aeroplane is Flugzeug whcih means flying stuff, the word for train is Zug because that's the noise that trains made in the olden days, zug zug zug. The word for cotten is Baumwolle literally meaning tree wool. In French it's the same story they have words (french words) for a copmuter, a copmuter printer, a laptop, an answering machine and so on. What I'm trying to say is that they don't just take words from other languages and "enrich" their languages when they can make words for the objects in their own language. We should do the same in Punjabi. We should make our own words just like Rupe has laboriuously done so. Another point I want to make is In East Punjab EXTREMELY sanskritised vocabualry is used whcih is beyond the undersatnding of West Punjabis. We should not replace Punjabi words with Urdu/Hindi words where we can. And if we ARE going to have some loan words they should be included in BOTH Punjabis so we can understand each other. In Punjab different regions have different words (same as American ans British English) like niane and bachhe (children) and thaN and jaa (place). All punjabis can understand that. But if there are going to be new words in Punjbai we should all know them.


Name: Tayyab -
E-mail: zan_ali34@hotmail.com
My URL:
Comments:   I think Punjabi should be written in both Shahmukhi and Gurmukhi. And all signs, books and evrything else should be written in both scripts. After all some countries like switzerland have 3 national languages. Evrything in Switzerland is written in German, French and Italian. Similarliy In Canada everything is written in both English and French. In South Africa they have the same thing. If other countries can put up with different LANGAUGES than surely we can cope with two scripts for ONE language.


Name: Saeed -
E-mail: saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Dear all, Is it not very interesting that Names of the most of participants in APNA Discussion Forum start with "S". Safir, Sameer, Sukhbir, Sajid, Suman, Shahid, Sardar, Saeed etc.

Prem Singh Kahlon Jee, Dullah Bhatti Jee, Dr. Zaki Jee, Rup Jee, buraa naa manayaa jey. tuhaaDee shirkat vee baRee ee bharveeN ey.

Kee meyN jhhooTh boliyaa,

Kee meyN kufar toliyaa,

jee koee naa, bhaee koee naa.


Name: Saeed -
E-mail: saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Sameer Jee, I agree with your views on Punjabi. Safir Paa Jee and Sukhbir Jee, I could not get answer from you. Did you recieve my e mails? Regards.


Name: Sajid Chaudhry -
E-mail: sajid@brain.com.pk
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Location: Sahiwal, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Friends!
Debate is going really interesting and it has brought old folks back. :) Keep it up. Sameer Jee welcome back.
Since debate is going too much "Aalimana" a person like needs to give my mind some rest. For other folks who are feeling like me lets enjoy this Qawwali in megical voice of Nusrat Fateh Khan that has kept me "MAST" for the whole day..Enjoy
Mera Aih Charkha NouLakha KuRay


Name: dharmesh -
E-mail: thakurdharmesh@sify.com
Location: ludhiana, punjab     india
Comments:   I have just come to know abt this website apnaorg.com and am very very glad being here. Especially, i was very happy to see all those pictures of sufi saints and gurus on the home page that seems reall cool. And i was delighted again when i read the sufi poetry on this site. Apart from that the music that's available on this site is really nice. I congratulate the makers of this site for their excellent work.


Name: Naushin -
E-mail: naushin_@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.naushin.com
Location: Islamabad,      Pakistan
Comments:   I love sufi music, it is the pure music.


Name: P S Kahlon -
E-mail: pkahloh@tnstate.edu
Comments:   Sajno:

It has been on my mind for a long time to ask this talented group to write about the relationship between communities during Maharaja Ranjit Singh's time. He happened to be my hero and therefore I may be rationalising some of the things that bother other people. Like he did not introduce Punjabi as an official language.

Let me make some sweeping statements so that you will know where I am coming from; (1) The relationship berween communities were the best they had been before or after Ranjit Singh. My notions were confirmed by Christy Campbell's book The maharaja's Box. HE will state things like this;"The circumstances under which Muslims and Hindus served a Sikh Maharaja which the Sikhs themselves could not rival.

If that is so then why to be critical of his time that he did not introduce Punjabi as a court language. Sameer jee was it you who made this point or some one else. As I said he is my hero and I may be rationalising it by saying that he could not have brought together communities which was more important at that time had he introduced Punjabi instead of Farsi. As I said I try to rationalise his shortcoming if you call it that.

Consider this according to Dr. KIng of East Asian Studies at the University of California 90 % of Sikhs were wiped out in the previous century. From what I have read that the affection for the Maharajah was real.What happened afterward is another story,and that too tells you that Muslim remained by and large loyal even after his death.

I also has some different take on Hindu/Sikh/Muslim feud before partition.The genesis of animosity was based more on long standing families feuds and that was true between Muslims/MUslims or Sikhs/Sikhs and had little to do with religion. Obviously it will take an addaed dimension if it happened to be between Muslims and Sikhs. I am just throwing these things for your consideration because most every body is talking about centuries old hatred. Role of Muslims in Guru Gobing Singh,s life come to mind. The struggle was more with unjust rulers and not with Muslims I think. Then I may be wrong


Name: SameerJB -
E-mail: sameer123@hotmail.com
Comments:  
Rashid Chaudhry: You write well, please keep contributing. However, the history of Urdu in Panjab is much older than the creation of Pakistan. Pakistan went ahead without any major resistance which was already in practice among Panjabi literati and educated folks. Dr. Tariq Rehman of Quaid-e-Azam University gives Urdu history in Punjab in detail in chapeter 11 of his book, "Languages and Politics in Pakistan". The fact is that religions have been divisive force for 100 years before 1947 with each religious community backing one particular language - Muslims for Urdu, Hindus for Hindi and Sikhs for Panjabi in municipal elections, school boards and seminars. And why blame any group. They all benefitted by backing a particular language at the expense of Panjabis unity and its effects showed its ugly head with fury during partition and its aftermath.

Anyway Pakistan continued with Urdu and Panjabis went along. There were negative social effects of it besides hurting the cause of Panjabi language. The worst of it is very visible in the middle class Panjabis in Karachi and Islamabad. Almost half of them including my own family is cut off from rural roots and rural cousins who do not speak Urdu. Thes people do not even know of their first cousins left behind in villages. Much more than any organization, villages became bastion and custodian of Panjabi language in Pakistan and thanks to the rural Panjab that Panjabi survived well in Pakistan.

Many things started happening which helped in the revival of Panjabi language in cities. The Punjabi economic power started to rise disproportionally and, I think, in 1990 Panjabi companies first time outnumbered Karachi based companies at the Karachi stock exchange. Gone were the Marwaris groups from the richest Pakistanis list, replaced by Chanioti sheikhs fully backed by Nawaz Sharif governments.At the same time, Panjabi dramas on PTV were highly successful because of well written and well performed acting. In came Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan phenomenon taking over the music scene. Additionally the worldwide ebvironment turned decidedly against Islamic fundamentalism. The decline of fundamentalism discredited Urdu language because madrassah education, mullahs speeches and even more than half the Talibans in Afghanistan were educated in Urdu language madrassags. Once Urdu helped Muslims of punjab in creating an identity in religiously divided pre-partition Panjab but now Urdu bacame white elephant due to no use in job market and its use by mullahs and fundamentalist.

Therefore, the rise of Panjabi which is likely to continue is due to rural Panjab remaining steadfast, Panjabi dramas, Panjabi music, economic success and discrediting of Urdu as no use in modern education, job market and its usefulness by undesired elements of the society - fundamentalists. Once Panjabi is loose from its confinement, it is creating its own momentum, the panjabi music from UK, Canada, USA and India is pouring in and more popular among youngsters because in Urdu/ Hindi everybody is trying to copy Lata, Rafi and Muskesh whereas Panjabi has more variety and it is folksy too.

When I graduated from Quaid-e-Azam University, there was no Panjabi students organization and now it is pretty big and aggressive. In future, pressure from diaspora Panjaibs like apnaorg will also be making the difference in favor of Panjabi language.


Name: Rashid Chaudhry -
E-mail: rashid313@yahoo.com
Location: Pindi,      Pakistan
Comments:   Kaurasach, You rightly mentioned the attitude of some W Punjabis. In fact the influence of Urdu, after being declared National language rendered a snobbish value to Punjabis to use it (Urdu Language) as a communication tool especially in the urban areas. However, the trend is gradually changing, now one can find more Punjabis joining the carvan of returnees to their mother tongue thanks to Punjabi poets, singers and writers. I remember the day when eminent humorous poet Inamulhaq Javed was the chief guest in a seminar in our university and when he revlealed that he did his PhD in some discipline of Punjabi, he received tumultous round of applause after which he told that he remained shy to reveal his 'qualification' in the days he did his PhD and afterwards, fearing he might be mocked for his choice of discipline. I think the major factor behind this miserable situation was and is the medium of instruction at Primary and Middle level studies. Punjabi is offered as an elective subject in 9th grade in W Punjab and Punjabis have to learn alien languages like Urdu, English and Arabic throughout thier academic careers. I sometimes wonder and appreciate the richness of Punjabi which is still alive despite remaining denied of due recognition. Portion of the blame also goes to urban parents who think their kids would not be able to speak Urdu (Anglo style) smoothly if they are 'allowed' to communicate in 'rude' Punjabi in homes and with their peers. On the other hand, one must laud volunteers, who are doing thier damndest best to help Punjabis get rid of this damn inferiority complex. I think the efforts of those Punjabi loving people should be streamlined otherwise this situation could worsen.


Name: Shahid -
E-mail: mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Dear Kahlon Jee: Thanks for your comment and wishing me good.

There are at least three things that are absolutely necessary to advance any cause effectively: (1) the soundness of the cause (should not be a fashion thing), (2) believing in that cause, (3) working for it; I mean working not just talking.

Deep down most Panjabis in Pakistan do believe in (1). Most are not sure about (2), not at least in the open. On (3) most is talk.

Let me elaborate what I mean. When I started writing in Panjbai (obviously I had to read it too in its original script, Persian-based Panjabi), many a times I will write a simple word and start thinking, what is its correct/standard form? Take the word naN (for no). I read it written in so many different forms and that from well known and acknowledged pillers of Panjabi literature (I must refrain from writing their names). That worried me a lot: With such a situation, how can I go to any Government and sincerely ask to adopt written Panjabi when it does not have a standardized written script?

I wrote and called, yes called several publishers (some on this Forum will confirm this). What I learned shocked me. I could see clearly why Panjabi in Pakistan has not progressed. There was too much talk, jealousy, professional-rivalery, dhaRay-bandi, and very little substantive work.

What I was proposing to these publishers was to bring out a Persian-letters based standradized tepmlate which is printed in every issue with an added request to writers that going forward they should observe these standards. Additionally, all incoming written material before it is published should be read and brought into the standard mold of written Panjabi. I have not succeeded so far, partly because it demands some of (3).

Well: as for me I will keep doing (1) (2) 3) because meN tay apni nabeRnee aiN na.
One other note in passing. I have noticed that lot of Panjabis blame to the extent of abusing Urdu for failure of Panjabi. I do not condone that. In fact I write in Urdu and English, too (you can check out my Urdu writings at Shairee, Adbi Ufaq and Mushira links under my name at www.urdulife.com, www.bazm-e-adab.com and www.sawf.org). But it cannot and never will thwart my passion for excellence and progress of Panjabi, my mother tongue.


Name: P S Kahlon -
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Comments:   Shahid Jee:

Thank you very much for your response.I agree with you on every thing and your desire to have science teaching in Punjabi. it is unfortunate that science at that level is not taught in child's spoken language.. I am a product of the culture that wrote Punjabi in Shahmukhi script. Since science text books are available in Punjabi, do you think that same text book can be written in Shahmukhi? My fear is that it may not be acceptable to the educaters in Pakistan. But latest move to promote Punjabi might change that.

My feeling is there is a silent majority who love their language/culture but the political situation is such that they are afraid to take lead lest they are branded anti- Pakistan. Unlike the earlier post I have never met any Pakistani who spoke with me in Urdu. Good luck on your mission and best wishes.


Name: farhat -
E-mail: farharkhan@hotmail.com
Location: chicago, il     USA
Comments:   With due respect to all. I have been reading various posts and I am enlightened, However I am confused about one thing and that is the political/ historical perspective on the relations of the two countries. The basis of division of the country was religion and religion alone,nothing else was taken into consideration and frankly it was based on bad judgement. The objective was to gain freedom from the English not to divide the nation.Religion is not the bond that holds a nation together ,as evident by the very turbulent history of Pakistan. It is language and common cultural values and tradtions that hold and bind people. I am from Pakistan and have been living in the U.S for a long time and my identity after a human being is that of a punjabi not a pakistani . You see I have not divided the nation in my mind or my psyche.I have run into individuals from both countries who are quite fervent in their religious and political beliefs and are opposed to any reconcilation and those who would welcome it with open arms. I have a tremondous love for Punjab and everything associated with it. We are a people who represent all the dimensions of the 5 rivers of the land,and ladies and gentlemen inspite of all political ,social and religious differences the waters flow without discrimination and do not differentiate on the basis of religion. Religion is a very private issue and should be kept that way.The Almighty did not make religions,it is a man made entity.Unfortunately the political leaders past and present never learned this. Punjab is the land of sufis and saints who preached unity and oneness of the Almighty. As far as the language is concerned ,it is a fluid entity and it is normal and natural to absorb local flavor but that does not mean that it is no longer an independent entity. Even the people of Punjab have differences, just talk to a Sialkoti vs a Lahori.These little differences give the language a color and a different flair. I hope that I have not offended any one ,if I have stepped on any toes then please forgive me. Jiyo, Farhat,


Name: Shahid -
E-mail: mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Dear Kahlon jee:

You asked Sajid a question the language in which science is taught at middle/high school levels in Pakistan.

I know in Panjab, Pakistan, it is in Urdu. At the Inter level there is English and to some extent Urdu.
As you might have gethered from discussion on this Forum and news, Panjabi is not taught in schools in Pakistan. It might change going forward. I believe if and when it so happens, the script for Panjabi is going to be Persian-based Panjabi, and I am strongly in favor of only that in Pakistan. There are obvious and very good reasons for that.
Now let me say about this particular essay/article. Several years ago (actually in 1998) when I started my active writing activity in Panjabi, I felt like 'filing the gaps' both in the script and the content. This particular article was the first in a series that I have written. I did not feel making noises for adopting something without any basis or proving my own commitment to it. That is why I usually stress these two points at this Forum about the promotion of Panjabi in Pakistan: (1) lippi/imla/script enhancement, (2) producing credible written material in Panjabi that could be helpful for making a case for its adoption.
I sincerely hope that others also practically join in this effort by writing in Panjabi in their fields of study/expertise.


Name: P S Kahlon -
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Comments:   Sajid Chaudhry:

I have a question for you. How is sciece taught in Pakistan in Middle Scool? I assume the text books are in a language that people can understand at that level. The reason I am asking this is that in East Punjab the science text book for middle school is in Punjabi in Gurmukhi script or in Hindi. Because what Dr. Shahid wrote is a lesson in scince at that level and hence one can get a text book that will have these lessons in Punjabi. I hope I am not missing your point. It appears that in Pakistan the Science is not taught in native language. Is that so? thanks.


Name: farhat khan -
E-mail: farhatkhan5@hotmail.com
Location: Chicago, ill     USA
Comments:   I am new in this arena, just wanted to greet all the members.It is really a great site. Congratulations to all who are a part of this. Jiyo, Farhat.


Name: farhat khan -
E-mail: farhatkhan5@hotmail.com
Location: Chicago, ill     USA
Comments:   I am new in this arena, just wanted to greet all the members.It is really great site. Congratulations to all who are a part of this. Jiyo, Farhat.


Name: kaurasach -
E-mail: kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:   Rupe,
If we can maintain our Bhangra, Dress, culture, and also influence the host countries, I don't see any reason why we can't learn to write here.
I can speak of my local experiences. Some gurudwaras offer Gurmukhi classes either during the gurudwara or in the evening.
Our local gurudwara has none who will take an initiative on this. There is enough money and resources. Unfortunately, the 'sewadars' communicate, lecture, and announce in their broken English that none understands.
In USA, where communities are small, I don't see another venue, where people congregate. Also in Punjab, before public school system developed in Punjab, Gurudwaras and Mosques also served as schools. My uncle's teacher was a local Mullah.
In Yuba city, where punjabi population is large, Gurmukhi lessons are taught in school.
I am surprised that in England (i think that is where u are) that you are finding trouble learning Punjabi and Gurmukhi.


Name: kaurasach -
E-mail: kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:   Rashid, I agree and know that for ex- Farid preceeded the sikh thought by 2 centuries. Sikhs have included Farid's work in their scriptures. But the feeling I came with many Pak Punjabis, with whom I attended college, is that they don't want to be associated with Punjabi and look at it as non muslim. To them, Urdu was dear and more 'muslim'. Though they were all Punjabis, they refused to speak in Punjabi and spoke Urdu to me. On the other hand, I always answered in Punjabi. I am talking about such persons (in present time), that they should be proud of their Punjabi roots.
Fortunately, I stumbled upon APNA site, and saw the other side of W Punjabis and quite happy to see and read that Punjabi still thrives.
My grandfather was an officer in British Punjab, so he was posted from Ludhiana in the East to Multan in the West and Jhang in North. The words I use are more authentic and simmilar to the words I see on this site used by W Punjabis than E Punjabis.


Name: Rashid Chaudhry -
E-mail: rashid313@yahoo.com
Location: Pindi,      Pakistan
Comments:   Kaurasach Although religious scriptures of Sikhs in Punjabi do give an edge to Sikhs to claim major contribution in preserving and boosting language and culture but at the same time i want to remind u that before Urdu invasion of religious literature in 1900 the Punjabi Muslims too used to learn religion in thier mother tongue. Besides ever-appreciated work of Soofis, the Ulema too opted Punjabi to communicate their messages. So I think Muslims despite their 'ignorance' in post-partition era should not be overlooked in this regard.


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
Comments:   Kaurasach, what are your opinions on Punjabi in the West? Can my generation ever suceed in writing the language?
Rupe


Name: kaurasach -
E-mail: kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:   Bob,
"no doubt sikhism is different than punjabisim .why sikhs think that they r the sole proprieters of punjabi language and punjabi culture?"
Sikhs neither think nor do they want to be sole proprieters of punjabi. Though sikhism is different from Punjabi, sikhs association with Punjabi is also religious since most of the scriptures are in Punjabi. Unlike muslims, Quran is in Arabic, Sanskrit for Hindu scriptures.
Secondly, sikhs were left with Punjabi by circumstances. Politics and fundamentalist interests (both internal and external)during the 1900s to this day opted for Urdu or Hindi.
Sikhs want others in Punjab to have equal share in Punjabi culture. That is why the recent visits by Pak Punjabi actors and plays presented in E Punjab were so well received. Their was news that sikhs were touching feet of acotr who was "Bulla Shah".


Name: Sandy -
E-mail: SandyKaur19@aol.com
Comments:   Hi i'm doing a study and I wantd to know if you would be able to send me 40 Punjabi words that sound like real Punjabi words but are not real words. I'm doing a vocabulary test in Punjabi and need 40 nonwords in Punjabi. Hope u can help, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks Regards Sandeep Kailey


Name: Bob Dhillon -
E-mail: bd@canovawireless.com
Location: Ilford,      UK
Comments:   The following is on 5abi.com website
A debate we can go into here?
i am really thankfull to raja dudhike for raising this important point. no doubt sikhism is different than punjabisim .why sikhs think that they r the sole proprieters of punjabi language and punjabi culture? don't u think we r ignoring the major chunk of punjabi language and punjabi culture - punjabis of pakistan. even in this site i m unable to see their representation. I m unable to decide whether we consider gurmukhi as a only major script for writing and reading punjabi. but i dont see many punjabi web sites written in arabic scipt punjabi? i will appresiate if any of my punjabi brother or sister from pakistani punjab or its origin will exlain his her viewpoint on this issue. i am also eager to know abt punjabi heroes (real life, not filmi heroes) like dulha bhatti , jagga. i dont know whether they were real heroes fought against establishment or just rebels . if someone pl enlighten me abt them i will be really thankfull to him. Dr.Gurinder saroya london -------------------- gurtej can we find a hero for punjab from our history? who will be acceptable equally in two punjabs, yesterday i was discussing abt punjabi heroes with one of my pakistani punjabi friend. who could be a real punjabi heroes , a punjabi legend abt whom we can tell stories to our children . i was certain abt bhagat singh, but to my astonishment my pakistani friend told me that not many pakistani punjabis know abt him. then we talked abt dulha bhatti , but i think except for few lohri songs nobody talk abt dulha bhatti these days. then who could be a real punjabi hero who can tresspass the boundaries. could raja porus be a reall hero. my friend told me discussion abt raja porus was taken place at world punjabi conference few yrs ago, but i dont know how many punjabis know abt heroism of king porus. any other name jagga, jiona mor udham singh, kartar singh jan lal lajpat rai, but does any of the name is acceptable among all the communities bus aine naam hi ne---------- so who could be a real punjabi hero? can any body suggest. gurinder saroya london


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   Logic-Taksheel
Prior to writing in Punjabi I wrote poetry in English, plus am still writing a novel. I have an Advanced Level Eng List qualification. As a consequence my old work place bought me a 4,000 page English Dictionary. What was interesting was its introduction.
It stated that the English language has conquered the world because it accepts all cultures and assimilates all. It stated that there are officially 20 different types of English language, influenced by countries, culture and religions ( Christianity in the main but also Islam, Hindu etc). It stated as well as Standard English, there is British English, American English, Australian, Jamaican and Indian , just to name some of them.
Each of these has its own dialects ( especially in UK). There are officially over 1000 dialects. Each area has different words. Taking the UK alone, no one in London understands anything anyone in Birmingham says. Newcastle is even more distinct. And Americans have no hope of understanding Australian dialects or Scottish ones.
there have been documentaries on UK TV about this. They concluded words are a combination of Intellectuals inventing them ( so its okay to do that), Writers creating them, and ordinary people altering them or adopting them form other sources.
So you see, whether you speak Pakistani Punjabi, Indian Punjabi or Sikh, Hindu and Muslim Punjabi ( Indeed Diaspora Punjabi) all are equally correct. We should have a dictionary like this too where entries are made showing the legitimacy of words regardless of them being Urdu, Sanskrit, Hindi , English or Sikh in nature. All are correct. That is why English has so many words and so many choices. Let’s be secular about this.
For example lets say there was a Punjabi word for Space Ship, but it was different if you were in different regions, dialects or religions. Well all of them are correct , because some Punjabi uses them, regardless of Hindi, Urdu or English influence. SO all should be in dictionary, and we should stop bickering. The Indian Subcontinent has two things that keep it behind the West. One is corrupt Politians. The other is religion. Ignore both. Punjabi language is enriched by the variety of different words for the same thing.
Thing about it
Rupe


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
Location: London,      UKq
Comments:   Akelish, I accept what you are saying, but you should converse with all punjabi no matter wheather differnt religion or region or country, soon you will be talking.
Atam Ji, Fair enough.


Name: Atamjit Singh -
E-mail: atam84@hotmail.com
Location: San Jose,      USA
Comments:   Kaurasach, thank you for reading the Article.
Akilesh I agree that Rupe is wrong about placing empasize on Doaba. I undertsnd why though. Most Immigrants to UK are form Doabe in East Punjab, or are from Pakistan. That said Rupe does not seem to realise that the writtern Punjabi even in UK is Taxila and thus Majha. Strange since his lessons on 5abi are an eclectic mix of Majha writtern style and Doaba spoken style.
That said, I believe his efforts to write in Punjabi do reflect the Punjabi the majority speak in the Uk Diaspora. He is clearly self taught ( the errors show that) but at least is trying. Are there any other Uk Born and USA born writers?
Rupe, I agree, let us have people's opinion on Punjabi spoken and writtern abroad and the effects of English on it? WHat do you all think?
I stand by my article on punjabilok.
Regards Atamjit


Name: Sameer -
E-mail: sameer123@hotmail.com
Comments:   I think the point, in enriching a language with words from neighboring languages, missed here is the difference between natural evolutionary enrichment which continues for all languages and enrichment from the top by establishment and their cronies for the purposes other than enriching a language. Sometime age, Safir Rammah posted a panjabi article from a newspaper written in shahmukhi which had something like 50 percent persian conjugated words, folowed by Arabic and Urdu etc with Panjabi words reduced to vey, ni, ki, kithay and few more. For example the first line of Pakistani national anthem is "pak ser zameen shaad baad" now turning it into "pak ser zameen shaad baad oye" does not make it panjabi. Similarly the Panjabi smachaar from All India Radio is hardly intelligible Panjabi for me or to most of the Pakistani Panjabis because it is highly sanskritized and Hindized. Panjabi people have not asked for this kind of enrichment, neither in Pakistan nor in India. When I listen to Bali's show or panjabradio presenters, I understand 100 percent of their panjabi because they are not influenced by the artificially induced enrichment of Panjabi language.

As if we already not have enough problem with urban Panjabis abandonment of Panjabi language, this one creates two panjabis within each panjab, one urban with different vocabulary and one rural and as usual urbanites would feel superior to rural not just by speaking Urdu/ Hindi but by a different panjabi.

I am all in favor of literati experimenting with new words and untility inspired addition of words as evolutionary enrichment has been doing.


Name: Sajid Chaudhry -
E-mail: sajid@brain.com.pk
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Location: Sahiwal, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   There is a great contribution of PUNJABIS in modren science.Is there any literature availabe in Punjabi(Gurmukhi or Shahmukhi) on Science topics???
This is my new project of collecting Science theories in Punjabi.Everyone should think about it and contribute.First step is here.(Thanks to Dr. Muhammad Afzal Shahid)
Punjabi Science Articles


Name: rajeev -
E-mail: fakemail@donotspam.com
Comments:   kaurasach jee..
joke tuhaada hun paryaa hai... ha ha ha ha ha ha


Name: rajeev -
E-mail: fakeemail@donotspam.com
Comments:   kaurasach veer ji
i apologize for misreading your earlier quote.. i was a bit startled myself and hastily penned a rather discomforting post.. trust me when i say that i have admired and learnt a lot from the discussions that go on here.. and the passion for punjabiyat that breathes here is certainly contagious, to say the least.. even though this particular exchange sustained a bit of rise in temperature, i for one benefitted from knowing your views and totally respect them..

DullaBhatti ji has also made a rather critical observation about the role of an organized comunication-media attempt to infiltrate punjabi with totally inorganic "hiindi" words.. this indeed is despicable.. as far as this indiscriminate hindiization or urduization of punjabi is concerned, it does need to be checked by grass roots efforts... but the legitimate history and "organic" development of our beloved language should not suffer either.. i will write below punjabi university's major research projects.. you will be amazed at the level of "hindi" they display ( or is it just me?).. in fact they border on "shudh hindi", understood by a few even in delhi..

PUNJABI LEKHAK LARI (SERIES OF PUNJABI WRITERS-MONOGRAPHS)
PARMUKH SAHITKAR LARI (PROMINENT LITTERATEUR-SERIES)
JEEWAN TE PRATIBHA LARI (LIFE AND TALENT -SERIES)
MERI PRATINIDH RACHNA LARI (THE BOOKS THAT REPRESENT ME- SERIES)
SAHITIK SWE-JEEVNI LARI (LITERARY AUTOBIOGRAPHIES - SERIES)
SARUP SIDHANT TE VIKAS LARI (FORM AND THEORY - SERIES)
ALOCHNATMIK PUNJABI SAHIT LARI (CRITICAL PUNJABI LITERATURE)
ANUVAD LARI (TRNASLATION SERIES)
SAMPADNA LARI (EDITING SERIES)
BHAVANATMIK LARI (SENSITIVITY SERIES)

more learned punjabi friends can confirm if this is acceptable language in east punjab academia.. i guess so.. to change the currents of this hindi proliferation will indeed need all the help we can get...

kaurasach jee, as far as the political prejudice is concerned, it is there no doubt.. but, if you notice every body is blaming political prejudice--- tamils in madras say that, bengalis in bengal say that, and not to mention biharis, gujratis etc.. infact, they think that political clout has for years helped us punjabis to flourish on the expense of other states..which is totally false, i hastily add... we have survived and progressed despite them and we shall...

once again kaurasach jee, i apologize if i have said something in my juvenile outpourings here.. its the love of my ma-boli that speaks..

rab rakha


Name: kaurasach -
E-mail: kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:   For laughs,
This is true story, how Punjabi and Hindi mixture is bad for you.
A rural man married an urban sikh girl who refused to speak Pbi, and spoke only Hindi. The man tried his best to Hindize his Pbi, for ex- insead of saying Jaani ain (to go, he would say Jaati hai. this worked fine till he said to her, tun KHOTI kyun hai! (Tun Khoneen (snatch) kyon ain)?


Name: P S Kahlon -
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Comments:   JAGJIT: The Giani Examination and text bools used for giani in Shahmukhi was a surprise for me. But when I was making fun of myself( going from Gojra To Toba Take Singh) my Urdu script Gutka was in my pocket. All of my family mamber's Gutkas were in Shahmukhi script(they never complained about it because that is the script they could read). Even when I was in college in 50's the "Sunder Gutka" was available in Shahmukhi because most people older than me could read Urdu only.

We are going too far on this language thing and hurting feelings. Why don't we change Punjabi to Prakirt or something since Punjabi is Persian word? Just kidding.

Sarbat Da Bhalha


Name: kaurasach -
E-mail: kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:   Rajeev, I didn't want to offend anyone. Firstly, I admire Hinduism texts, belive me, I hold Gita, Ramayana, Upashniads, and I hold Sanskrit in VERY high esteem, more so than many Hindus. Whenever I get into discussion with American friends, I tell them of all the languages, Sanskrit is the world's most perfect language - and I mean it.
My issue is with Pbi Hindus in general, NOT ALL. Due to the limited space of the discussion form, one can make only sweeping statements, there is exception to every rule. Punjabi hindus have contributed immensely to Punjabi, in some case perhaps more than sikhs or muslims.
My issue was both Punjabi sikhs (now) and Pb Hindus IN GENERAL, NOT ALL, that I saw when I lived in Chandigarh, who shun Punjabi in favor of Hindi.
By the way you didn't address my issues and questions I raised regarding the issue and political prejudices toward Punjab and Punjabi.
Regarding my statement of NRI sikhs, it is true. I meant the upbringing in the USA and their distance from Hindi influence helped the Punjabi cause. The efforts on behalf of Akali (sikhs) and Pbi Congress CM (also a sikh) is nill for the Punjabi promotion cause.
I was disgusted by the status of the so called Punjabi language and culture being promoted on Punjabi TV, in school and in general in Punjab.
I hope I have clarified myself. I am aware that I am not good at writing, I am better communicator with mouth. So sometimes, the message I send is misunderstood or out of context and requires clarification


Name: rajeev -
E-mail: fakeemail@donotspam.com
Comments:   kaurasach veer ji in your last quote you wrote.."Thank goodness to Sites like APNA, the large overseas Sikh diaspora, and Pak Punjabis who are not under Hindi/Urdu enrichment. The recent Punjabi advocacy in Pak Punjab is undertaken by major contribution and efforts of NRI Sikh community. They see through this cloak of so called 'enrichment'."

your sweeping statement totally discredits many of us poor souls who are not foutunate enough to be "NRI Sikhs"... the very basis of punjab, punjabi, punjabiat and sikh dharam has been the full heartedness and richness of spirit brought about by drawing heavily from whereever we can.. gurbani speaks highly of both hindu gods and goddesses and equally highly of allah.. hindu bashing is becoming a favorite passtime of many, both within and outside of india.. but i am still proud to be a hindu and a punjabi.. is that too much!

insulation will lead to stagnation and ultimate demise of anything.. and sanskrit (yes, i know the cruel monster that eats up all things..) has not been spoken for the last 1000(or more) years precisely because of this reason... brahmins, in an attempt to preserve their unquestioned monopolies did not let it flourish and it died its natural death.. now its only remembered when we have to find roots of words or have to recite some mantars etc.. insulation can do that you know..

the roots of hindu, muslim and sikh unity and the unmitigated marvel that is punjabiyat is a wonder to behold, even after decades of british abuse... but like suman jee said, suing the queen wont bring any thing back now so we have to build from here..

finally, kaurasach veer jee, muafee chahvaanga jae kuj gustakhi hoyee hove tae.. just my two cents


Name: DullaBhatti -
E-mail: jagjit_naushehrvi@yahoo.com
Comments:   Another point..all the words that Punjabi borrowed from Sanskrit or Persian did not just come straight one day into Punjabi wiriting..people used these words in their daily conversations for long time during which their pronunciation of the words changed or words got shortened to adapt for daily use and then they came into Punjabi wiriting...these days words are coming from Sanskrit and Arabic(not from Persian anymore) directly by translating word by word to convey the word meaning without paying any attention to their pronunciation, adaptation to the daily use or form and fit into the existing language base.


Name: DullaBhatti -
E-mail: jagjit_naushehrvi@yahoo.com
Comments:   About Shahmukhi...Kahlon paahji might be right about Giani in Urdu script...My dad tells me that his first memory of seeing a "GuTka" - pothi of gurbani, is in Urdu script and he remembers his nana or nana's brother reciting paath from it in early 1940's at his naanka pind near Burki, Lahore.


Name: DullaBhatti -
E-mail: jagjit_naushehrvi@yahoo.com
Comments:   wow...lot of posts to go through. Quickly couple of things..First, warm welcome back to Sukhbir veer and Sameer veer. I know both of these persons know much more and have stronger viewpoints than they normally share with us. donoN gunnaN dian guthliaN ne..if we could figure out how to tap into.

Secondly, I totally agree that language should incorporate new words from other languages..particularly words that become pop words in any era or time...but I also strongly believe that that should happen in a natural way...e.g. the sentence, gaddi late ho gai ay....came into existence naturally..we don't even know how, by whom and when..probably by a common man who was waiting for train at some far swung station...on the other hand lot of words coming into Punjabi from Arabic and Sanskrit/Hindi are coming from top down..from our governmental organizations, schools boards , textbooks, university professors etc..that is not a natural path..that is a deliberate attempt to change the face of the language to a point where there is not much difference between Punjabi and Hindi/Urdu except da, di, de and aaho. I swear if this top down plastic surgery of Punjabi continues another 20 years, there will a movement in Punjab to declare Punjabi a dialect of Hindi/Urdu and that will be end of it all. May be I am little paranoid about this but I am feeling that since a good friend of mine from Delhi said once...Rajasthani is a dialect of Hindi and so is Punjabi. That is what most Hindi/Urdu lobby believes both in India and Pakistan.

Natural path of evolution for languages that existed since adam said hi to eve has been terminated with the modern world of education and controlled communication media. Believing that language will still be let evolve naturally is false. only way to save language is take control of language teaching in schools and have independent pro Punjabi media in every form.


Name: sardarz -
E-mail: sardarz@yahoo.com
Comments:   My Dear KauraSach,

I am not sure how you identify yourself as a PUNJABI.?

-If you think you are a Punjabi based on the fact that you or your Family belonged to a Geographic area of northwest India called Punjab, then I will have to agree with your observations and views, they perfectly fit this mindset.

-But if you identify yourself as a Punjabi based on the fact that you
Love the language and culture associated with it (Yes, all three,Muslim,Sikh and Hindu Punjabi cultures)
Read and appreciate Punjabi Literature
Listen and appreciate Punjabi music
Relish speaking Punjabi or want to learn to speak
Know and are proud of the History of Punjab and Punjabi CULTURE based on the fact that people of different faiths call it their mother toungue.
Then I disagree with your observations and thats how I identify myself as a Punjabi.

I personally do not associate myself with Political or Religious divide in punjab and Punjabi culture,the same way the presence of languages like Sanskrit,Persian etc have contributed to richness of Punjabi Language the presence of different religions like Islam,Sikhism,Hinduism have enriched the Punjabi Culture.
No matter how you divide and subdivide and give and take territory to Haryana, Himachal, Pakistan or whatever state for that matter,you are not going to convince me this is the right way of demonstrating ones PUNJABIAT.

By ASSIMILATION of other languages I did not mean throwing away PUNJABI vocbulary and adopting Hindi/Urdu/Persian etc I meant things just like Kahlon ji demonstrated in his post below.

Regards.


Name: Akhilesh -
E-mail: HiTMaN9497@aol.com
My URL: http://www.lokpunjab.com/
Location: ,      Europe
Comments:  

Im with kaurasach. Why replace Punjabi words with a Hindi/Urdu equivalent or even use words from these languages when speaking our mother-tongue?

Sardarz, i also like that song "Hoya Jadon akhan de ishariya da mail" - Love the instrument played at the start.

Rupe, im like you in a way, except i dont speak Punjabi. When i was younger (Im still only 19, will be 20 in a couple of months) i wasnt interested in learning Punjabi and my parents didnt seem to be interested in teaching my either. Instead my father wanted me to go and learn Hindi because he is under the delusion that Punjabi is a dialect of Hindi which is just spoken with an accent. I dont know that his problem his but anyway i never wanted to learn Hindi or identify with its speakers who i find totally different from me.

For a couple of years now i've been looking into ways of how to teach myself Punjabi or learn from someone else. At the Gurdwara they dont have speech classes for adults so i have only leant how to read and write Gurmukhi, but i still cant speak or understand the spoken language.

My last hope at becoming fluent in Punjabi seems to be in attending classes at the school of african and oriental studies. The term one for beginners doesnt start yet so im still waiting.

What i want to say to you is that i think you have made a very good effort in working on developing new Punjabi words, mainly to fit in with Punjabi spoken in the West. However, i cant say that i agree with you that the majority of Punjabis abroad are from Jalandhar or speak a Doaba dialect of Punjabi. I am not from Doaba, infact my roots are much further west than that and are in the Majha region. Personally, i do not want to learn a Doaba dialect of Punjabi as it is not spoken by my family. I am only interested in learning chaste Punjabi, and i think it is chaste Punjabi which you should also concentrate on if you have plans to develop new words. Afterall, it is the standard Punjabi which is the most viable and widely spoken, not its regional dialects.

Also bear in mind that we are not all from Jalandhar.

kaurasach - Haryana and Himachal should just be merged back into Punjab. Would solve alot of problems. If not, then APNA, Punjab govt etc should work to promote and safeguard Punjabi in these two states from being assimilated into Hindi by a bunch of fanatics from the cow-belt.


Name: Shahid -
E-mail: mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:   A Panjabi ghazal from my new book - rattjagay (2003, Ravi Kitab Ghar, Galee No. 1, Shahkot, Distt. Sheikhupura, Pakistan)

praey maan raRaN keeh
banay ee naN wigaRaN keeh

swah miTTee ruLee her shay
swah miTTee ujaRaN keeh

baneray aakRay baNgay
kiveN gheraN soo taRaN keeh

jadoN mallya su ghar sara
kisay horee nuN waRaN keeh

hijar dee garmiyoN bhujya
dilay nuN hor saRaN keeh

jadoN chola ee nahiN galmay
kamal howay tay paRaaN keeh

nahiN bayhosh thakkan toN
bhla SHAHID lataRaN keeh

Shahid


Name: kaurasach -
E-mail: Kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:   Sardarz, Rajeev, and Suman,
Please read Atamjit Singh's article on Language divide on Punjabilok. He has posted it in a message below.
your "enriching' will have far more ill effects on Punjab and Punjabi. Why was Punjab torn apart into Haryana, HP,. Why didn't the Center let the harayanvi and pahari (2 compartively minor languages)language "ASSIMMILATE" into Punjabi and Punjab. Chamba, and other foothill districts of HP speak Punjabi as their first or second language. Why were they taken out of Punjab and not Punjabi enrich them? Ambala district of Haryana is overwhelmingly Punjabi even after 3 decades of separation from Punjab.
I remember growing up in Chandigarh Hindus and few "assimilated" sikhs declaring their mother tongues as "hindi" though non spoke a word of Hindi. This polarized the communities. Selfish politicians gave 'hala sheri' to this tamasha thinking they will benefit somehow. But followed was the mayhem of 1980s.
Last time I was in India. Chandigarh and outlying areas were demanded by some Hindu interests to be given to Haryana. If your "ENRICHING" continues, all of Punjab will be given to Haryana and HP.
Thank goodness to Sites like APNA, the large overseas Sikh diaspora, and Pak Punjabis who are not under Hindi/Urdu enrichment. The recent Punjabi advocacy in Pak Punjab is undertaken by major contribution and efforts of NRI Sikh community. They see through this cloak of so called 'enrichment'.


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   I agree totally with Kaurasauch. My PREM project was initially a knee jerk reaction to make Punjabi diffrent from Hindi and Urdu
I have seen the errors of my ways, but still feel some of my suggestions were good
I feel that this is a good opportunity to discuss Punjabi in the West.
So far I seem to have failed to encourage this topic at all, despite my efforts below
I sno one interested in how the next generation in the west is going to use Punjabi?


Name: kaurasach -
E-mail: kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:   Sardarz, Suman, and Rajeev,
your are entitled to your opinion regarding the so called "enriching" and "assimilation". But it is a misconception. Punjabi is already a rich language. If it assimilates, it loses her identity - which I am toatally against along with several others. Punjabi is already a rich language.
I am fluent in French, Hindi, and some German, English etc. So learning another language is not an issue. But, I NEVER use Hindi words when communicating in Punjabi. Some words that I found out to be non Punjabi, I dropped from my vocabulary. Nice thing about being in the USA is that my and the coming generation's Punjabi will not be "enriched" by Hindi or Sanskrit.
I am not against words gradually creeping like BUS, NAHAR (Persian word for Canal), CAR, etc into Punjabi. But when one starts to completely change the identity of Punjabi, that disturbs me.


Name: Sardarz -
E-mail: Sardarz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Gursaharan Ji,

Thanks for sharing about SATWANT...I am actually a bit disappointed that she does not have any other works...as you said she has a very lively and rich voice.

Suman Ji

You are right Deedar & Amrit section is a good one to listen to.I especially like the last one on the list sung by Deedar "Hoya Jadon akhan de ishariya da mail".... Simple and straight way of singing with well meant Lyrics...

Regards


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   The Honorable Ambassador Jean-David Levitte,
French Embassy to the United States
4101 Reservoir Road, NW
Washington, DC 20007
Dear Ambassador Jean-David Levitte:
As Members of the U.S. House of Representatives, we are writing to express our concern about legislation pending before the French Parliament that would ban religious dress and articles of faith in the country's schools. We respectfully ask that you convey our concerns to your government in advance of this momentous vote.
France has a proud modern tradition of isolating state institutions from religious influences in order to maintain a stable and secure government and to protect the rights of its people. However, the proposed law threatens the religious rights of French children by forcing them to choose between school and religious practices that are central to their core values.
We are particularly concerned that this legislation appears to represent a backlash against one French minority: Muslims. Despite claims to the contrary, this legislation would disproportionately affect Muslims, especially Muslim women who often wear headscarves, known in Arabic as hijabs. However, restricting religious garb would impact individuals of all faiths. Many Sikhs, for example, wear turbans as an expression of their faith and religious identity. Compelling them to remove their turbans in school is contrary to the dictates of their faith. In essence, this law would force Muslims, Sikhs, Jews, and members of other faiths to pursue alternative forms of education, slowing their integration into French society.
France has been commended for its willingness to sign international treaties that protect human rights and religious freedom. As the French Parliament debates this issue over the next week, we urge this legislative body to remain mindful of the spirit in which these treaties were written and agreed to.
In the event that this bill passes, we would respectfully urge your government to present this bill to the Constitutional Council for consideration. We understand that not all bills are subject to consideration by this council, but given the substance and magnitude of this legislation, we feel it is an appropriate and necessary step. We trust that the French government will do its best to protect the interests of its citizens and will provide the necessary tools to ensure that the religious norms each individual citizen wishes to exercise are honored.
Sincerely,
MICHAEL M. HONDA VERNON EHLERS
Member of Congress Member of Congress


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
Location: Londonm,      USA
Comments:   The Honorable Ambassador Jean-David Levitte, French Embassy to the United States 4101 Reservoir Road, NW Washington, DC 20007 Dear Ambassador Jean-David Levitte: As Members of the U.S. House of Representatives, we are writing to express our concern about legislation pending before the French Parliament that would ban religious dress and articles of faith in the country's schools. We respectfully ask that you convey our concerns to your government in advance of this momentous vote. France has a proud modern tradition of isolating state institutions from religious influences in order to maintain a stable and secure government and to protect the rights of its people. However, the proposed law threatens the religious rights of French children by forcing them to choose between school and religious practices that are central to their core values. We are particularly concerned that this legislation appears to represent a backlash against one French minority: Muslims. Despite claims to the contrary, this legislation would disproportionately affect Muslims, especially Muslim women who often wear headscarves, known in Arabic as hijabs. However, restricting religious garb would impact individuals of all faiths. Many Sikhs, for example, wear turbans as an expression of their faith and religious identity. Compelling them to remove their turbans in school is contrary to the dictates of their faith. In essence, this law would force Muslims, Sikhs, Jews, and members of other faiths to pursue alternative forms of education, slowing their integration into French society. France has been commended for its willingness to sign international treaties that protect human rights and religious freedom. As the French Parliament debates this issue over the next week, we urge this legislative body to remain mindful of the spirit in which these treaties were written and agreed to. In the event that this bill passes, we would respectfully urge your government to present this bill to the Constitutional Council for consideration. We understand that not all bills are subject to consideration by this council, but given the substance and magnitude of this legislation, we feel it is an appropriate and necessary step. We trust that the French government will do its best to protect the interests of its citizens and will provide the necessary tools to ensure that the religious norms each individual citizen wishes to exercise are honored. Sincerely, MICHAEL M. HONDA VERNON EHLERS Member of Congress Member of Congress


Name: suman -
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   Sorry, Sardarz, my mistake. The Amrit Khanna version is under Deedar and Amrit in the music list and is also worth listening to.


Name: P S Kahlon -
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Comments:   Sameer:

Jee ayaN nooN. Mitra phir naaN bhul javeN sanooN.

Suman Jee:A few weeks back I was making fun of myself. The intent was to say that the commonly used word regardless of their origin should be used in communication. No language is polluted by words from another language. The non evolving cultures/languages are more likely to fade away than evolving ones. Atleast that is what I had learnt and that is what I teach as for as living things are concerned (Biology). The train late ho gai hai is more understood by Punjabees than the train nooN kawella ho gia. I don't know how many people know that before partition you could write in Shahmukhi (Urdu) to pass Giani Exam. This is whatI was told by someone who graduated from Lyall Pur Agri. College (Now Faislabad Agri U.) ( for West Punjabees- Giani is equivalent to a BA in Punjabi language). I don't think any body had a problem with it at that time. If that is true then why it is not possible to write Punjabi in scripts other than Gurmulkhi?

Sameer: Yaar eh ghar tere naal changa lagda ae. BaRi khushi hoee ae tere auNh nall.


Name: suman -
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   Raajeev and Sardarz. Very well put. I cannot think of a single language in the world where confining it has made it grow. Why are folks so afraid of outside influences? They are actually energizing. BTW did you know that the word father comes from the sanskrit pita? When travelling westward p changes into f. Just a factoid.

The singer in Dachi Vaaleya is Amrit Khanna - I was only able to find two tapes of her songs, and this was a long, long time ago. Could never find any information about her though I still look for her music whenever there is a possibility. There should be a few more songs by her on the site.

. Asif, what an appropriate poem you have quoted. It has been beautifully sung by, I think Mahender Kapoor, in the film Gumraah. Now if only a few million, maybe a few billion, people could embrace this thought, internalize it and act upon it.


Name: gursharan -
E-mail: gsinghh@yahoo.com
Location: reston, va     USA
Comments:   SardarZ,

Dachi Vaaleya song is sung bySATWANT . She is a Alumni from Punjabi University Patiala. She is not a pro. singer. You might recognize her voice in video"VEHRA SAGNA DA" She doen not have any other album or other collection for that matter. She does have a rich voice for portraying the richness of great punjabi singing.


Name: Atam Singh -
E-mail: atam84@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.punjabilit.com/kahania/khushjeevan.rup.htm
Location: San Jose,      USA
Comments:   THE LANGUAGE DIVIDE IN PUNJAB
By Atamjit Singh

http://www.punjabilok.com/misc/education/language_divide.htm

Source: South Asia Graduate Research Journal


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rupe@panindia.com
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   I see no one has any interest in the way Punjabi is evolving or otherwise outside of India and Pakistan.
Why else ignore my question below?
Rupe


Name: Asif Butt -
E-mail: asifg54@hotmail.com
Location: Islamabad, Pk     Pakistan
Comments:   I would like to share a poem Of Sahir Ludhyanvee with all the viewers of Apna Rog "Chalo ik baar phir se ajnabee ban jaien hum donoon" Na mein tum se koi umeed rakhon dilnawazi kee Na tum meri taraf dekho galat andaaz nazroon se Na meray dil ki dharkan larkharaey teri baaton se Na zahir ho tumhari kashmakash ka raaz nazroon se Tumhein bhi koi uljhan rokti hai paishqadmi se Mujhay bhi log kehtay hien kay yeh jalway paraaey hien Meray hamraah bhi ruswaiyaan hein meray maazi kee Tumharay sath bhi guzri huee ratoon kay saaey hien Taaruf Rog ban jaey tu us ko bholna behtar Taaluq bojh ban jaey tu us ko torna acha Woh Afsaana jisay anjaam tak lana na ho mumkin Usay ik khoobsoorat morr de kar chorna acha "Chalo ik baar phir se ajnabee ban jaien hum donoon" Note: kashmakash (bechaini), paishqadmi (aagay bharnay, steping forward)uljhan (preshani,Trouble), ruswaiyaan (badnaami), maazi (past), Taaluq (relationship), anjaam (End), mumkin (possible)


Name: saeed -
E-mail: saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Sukhbir Paa jee,

kee tuhaanoo meri do tin din pehlaaN dee e mail millee ey. MeyN tuhaani ik sardaar raheeN paNj kitaabaaN da tohfaa ghalyaa ey.

Sameer Jee, tuhaaDaa waapas ghar nooN aoN*aa chaNgaa lagaa. Bhalaa hovey KahloN jee da

Punjabi Akhbaar KhabraaN boht dhoom dhaRakey de naal chhap rehyaa ey.


Name: Sardarz -
E-mail: Sardarz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Apneo,
Help me figure out who is the singer in the song

"Dachi Waleya MoR Muhar We"

Listed under

Loke Songs from East Punjab - 2

Various Singers
on the APNA HOME PAGE.

Does anyone know about this singer and if she has any other compositions like this song ?

Regards


Name: Sradarz -
E-mail: sardarz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Rajeev Ji
Nicely written...
You are right the greatness of a language lies in "assimilation" of words from other languages.Not in insulating itself.

The more words from ARABIC,URDU,SANSKRIT,PERSIAN etc are in Punjabi the richer our mother tongue becomes.If you really look at it,the words that are incorporated from other languages are not the words that make Punjabi less "mithi" or for that matter less "understandable".
But on the contrary these are the words that explain it better and make it more "powerful","colorful" or "richer" to a wider audiance.
The language spoken over most of the world "ENGLISH" is a living proof of it.
English incorporated words from languages from all parts of the world which have only made it richer, like "Juggernaut" from Hindi, which comes from the enormous vehicle used in carrying a 'SAWARI" of Lord Jagannath in Orissa,"MASKARA" from essentailly Punjabi/Hindi word used to describe the beauty ingredient females use,"THUG" from hindi/Punjabi word "THAG" used for a anit-social elements etc.

I disagree with contributors of this forum who argue the presence of another respected language like, Sanskrit,Urdu,Persian,Arabic etc contributes to the decline of another language like Punjabi.
Let's not all forget here a proven fact,which is that we all are born WITH a IQ, there is only ONE way to increase your IQ and that is by learning ANOTHER Language.
Now that should be an eye opener by itself,people,populations or cultures who start a new language, or who try to enrich a existing Language by incorporating words from other similar relevant languages are not ordinary intelleigence level people, only people of a certain ability and intellect would be able to do so(i,e the ones who spent time studying,learning,knowing or atleast listening to a lanugage different than their mother tongue).
This alone should make us realise the very presence of another Language is a God sent gift for us to enrich our mother tongue and ourselves and the whole humanity.

Regards.


Name: Sameer -
E-mail: sameer123@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Dr. Mohan Singh`s famous Panjabi poem and its Urdu adaptation

JhannaN

by Dr. Mohan Singh

mere phull JhanaN wich paane.

main shaiyer mere phull suhaawe,
kadar ehna di koi ahsiq paawe,
Ganga bahmani ki jaane,
mere phull JhanaN wich paane.

roohaN Heer te Sohni diyan,
firan JhanaN de ander paiyean,
pairaN dohaN de vaahne,
mere phull JhanaN wich paane.

(Urdu adaptation)

Panjab meri maaN hae jahan-e-tub-o-taab maiN
ho sakay tO bahana raakh ko meri chenab maiN

meri shayeri nay kia hae, meri raakh ko moattar
ashiq hi qadar janaiNge, jo qurbaN hoye tujh per
ganga jamuna ko kia pata, kia hae chenab maiN
ho sakay tO bahana raakh ko meri chenab maiN

Sohni kay hi dum say hae teri maujoN ki rawani
Heer nay bakhshi hae tujhay, pyar ki nigeh bani
Sohni-o-Heer ki roohoN ka basaira chenab maiN
ho sakay tO bahana raakh ko meri chenab maiN


_________________________________________________________

Urdu transliteration of Surjeet Paater`s Panjabi poem


ik hi baar janam lainay ki buhut sakht saza hae

mer janay kay baad bhi zindoN ki adaalat maiN
murdoN ko bazariah aah-o-zari di jati saza hae

kabhi murdoN ko maana jata hae munsif-e-a'la
aur kabhi murdoN nay kia bhari kharaj ada hae

qabr maiN bhi murdoN ko naseeb naheeN chaiN
bhari sung-e-katbah kay neechay ser daba hae

jo qabr naheeN tO khakistar kia sulagti aag say
ik hi baar janam lainay ki buhut sakht saza hae



Name: Sameer -
E-mail: sameer123@hotmail.com
Comments:   Here is the article from News by Imtiaz Alam <.PPunjabi touch and ‘untouchable’

Imtiaz Alam

The visit of the Chief Minister of the Indian Punjab, Capt. Amrinder Singh, to Lahore on the occasion of the 9th World Punjabi Congress, that was participated by 140 Punjabi intellectuals from the other side, have added a Punjabi touch of warmth and cordiality to the ongoing process of Indo-Pak reconciliation. Poetic exuberance, nostalgia for the loss of what once a Punjab was, yearning for a common Punjabi inheritance and eagerness to revive the broken traditional linkages, coupled with an emphasis on common language and culture dominated the theme of interaction among the Punjabi intelligentsia that met in Lahore in a more relaxed atmosphere. What can the two Punjabs do in the context of Indo-Pak relations and even much broader South Asian affinity?

No doubt, Punjab had become a nation-state, under Maharaja Ranjeet Singh, that lost its identity and sovereignty to the British colonizers (1845-49) and, thanks to its own internal diversity, communitarian conflicts and bigger historical play at the level of subcontinent, it could not make a historical come-back. Essentially, it was the Punjab and Bengal, besides Kashmir, that paid the price for Partition not properly weighed by those who drew the line. The kind of unprecedented ethno-religious cleansing that accompanied the Partition of the subcontinent, chosen by both Punjabi Muslims and the Sikhs, left such deep scars in the memory of the two sides that the wounds continued to fuel the enmity between the two countries for decades. In fact the Punjabis on the two sides became instrumental in fanning enmity between the two countries. Yet, despite 60 years of enmity, these are the Punjabis in two countries who yearn for friendship and brotherhood of love more than any other community. This hate-hate and love-love dichotomy of the Punjabis, incidentally, explains the Indo-Pak relationship.

Given the processes of assimilations that have come into play to set different directions for the two Punjabs in post-colonial period under the hegemony of two-nation states - Pakistan and India - the sentiment for communion by erasing the dividing line, argued by CM Amrinder Singh, and sharply defended by Chief Minister Chaudhary Pervaiz Elahi, provide food for thought. When younger brother, representing close to one-eighth of the big brother’s population, offers to remove the border-line, what does that mean and when the big brother resists the temptation what does that amount to, even though the border trade and cultural exchanges suit both more than anybody else?

East Punjab was further divided into three states of India and shares its capital, Chandi Garh (a federal-territory), with the Hindi-speaking Haryana state. Although the Sikhs, who form the majority of East Punjab, felt alienated and an isolated section even raised the banner of ‘Khalistan’, they have been well integrated into the Indian Union, despite Operation Blue Star against the Sikh militants (June 4, 1984). Producing much of the grain, East Punjab is now at the threshold of taking another leap in industrial development and is in search of more accessible markets and cost-effective businesses, such as with Pakistan’s Punjab, as compared to other regions of India. Left behind than southern Indian states, East Punjab, although quite prosperous, and for that matter, most of relatively more backward Northern India, now see greater benefit in good neighbourly relations with Pakistan.

Just not Lahore, the historical and cultural capital of the Punjab that pulls all Punjabis, but also most of ethno-lingual, cultural and psychological routes lie on this side of the border. Most sacred temples and shrines of Sikh religion, including the most revered founder of Sikhism Baba Guru Nanak’s, are situated here. Without them the Sikhs would be like Muslims if they don’t get access to Khana Kaa’ba and Masjid-i-Nabvi. In fact all great Punjabi poets, including Baba Farid Shakarganj, Baba Nanak, Bulleh Shah, Waris Shah and others, belong to this part of the Punjab. And few know that Hazrat Mian Mir (laid to rest in Lahore) laid the foundation stone of the Golden Temple.

Then why should the bigger Punjab shy in embracing the twin-brother? The Punjabis and the Punjab, in Pakistan, have turned out to be the greatest beneficiary of the Partition. The Punjab is just not the dominating province, by virtue of its size and share in the economy; it, in fact, is the second name of Pakistan. Unlike their Punjabi brethren in East Punjab, the Punjabis bartered away their language, in favour of Urdu, and cultural identity, in favour of Pakistani identity, in return for greater political and economic appropriation beyond their province. By substituting the two-nation theory with the ‘ideology of Pakistan’, the Punjabis along with the Urdu-speaking Mohajirs formed the axis of power in Pakistan to exclude others. As the Mohajirs break the axis and opt for their own exclusive identity, the Punjabis, after having exhausted the potential of over-extension, can afford to look back, except a section of the Kashmiri-Punjabis who feel strongly against the division of Kashmir.

The Punjab is now more confident in adjusting to the demands of smaller provinces in a more, yet fully evolved, accommodating federation, on the one hand, and looks forward to greater links with East Punjab and India, on the other. The Punjabi big business, as shown by Mian Nawaz Sharif, feels mature enough to put the past enmity behind in favour of greater cooperation without, however, losing sight of the interests of a nation-state that determine their increasingly rational attitude. Hence, over-protective reaction of CM Pervaiz to his counterpart’s, CM Amrinder’s, suggestion at erasing the dividing line. On the other hand, East Punjab, and most of the Indian Punjabis, who form one of the moist influential groups in decision-making in New Delhi, represents what India aspires to do in the region as a big nation that often causes a sense of insecurity among its neighbours.

Instead of aspiring to revive that was long ago shattered (the Punjabi nationhood?), which is quite offensive to the integrity of two nation-states and they forcefully resist, the Punjabis of the two sides can do better things in countless spheres, including cultural and economic spheres, without causing jitters in New Delhi and Islamabad. There is no more militancy or ‘Sikh problem’ in East Punjab, nor is there any danger on this side of the Punjab being overtaken by cultural invasion or over-dumped by Indian goods. Revival of Punjabi fraternity, promotion of cultural and linguistic relations, greater economic cooperation, especially in agriculture and power-generation, border trade and tourism are the areas where the two Punjabs can provide lead and set a good model in globalisation-in-reverse. After all, SAFTA will provide a greater boost to border trade and both Punjabs must jump on the opportunity.

Since in Indo-Pak conflict the Punjabis of both sides played a leading role, they can compensate for the damage caused to whole of South Asia because of Indo-Pak enmity fuelled, among others, by the Punjabis. If the Punjabis divided between India and Pakistan take the front seat in the peace process they can provide a sound edifice for a cooperative relationship between the two countries and help resolve outstanding disputes. In the meanwhile, they can benefit from each other’s stronger points. The neglect of the Punjabi language and culture on this side of the Punjab can be overcome with the help of East Punjab. Similarly, in agriculture there are many things that both sides can learn from. In trade and development, both can look towards building a sub-regional economic centre the way Sri Lanka and Southern India can aspire to create.

The visa regime will have to be relaxed, much more preferentially, between the two Punjabs. Cultural, youth, sports, educational and media exchanges must be allowed at a larger, and in an easier, way. Special posts can be created at Wagah to allow freer entry on simple passes stamped at border for tourism, cultural exchanges and people to people contacts. The Punjabi-mohajirs, on both sides, should be allowed to visit their ancestral places without any hassle. The Punjabi language faculties, scholars, researchers, writers and artists should be allowed to work together. Joint chambers of business and agriculture can be formed for mutual benefit. The Lahore-Amritsar bus link needs to be revived immediately with dozens of buses moving between the two cities on daily basis. Special shuttles should be allowed to run between Amritsar and Nankana Sahib and Hasan Abdal for pilgrimage on daily or weekly basis. Similarly, the people at large may be allowed to participate in the Punjabi festivals, such as Basant and Vesakhi. The list for cooperation is infinite.

No doubt, the World Punjabi Congress, besides other literary groups, has kept a window of interaction open among the Punjabi intellectuals during the worst time, it also needs to open its doors to all those who can contribute to the promotion of Punjabi language, culture and literature. The meeting of the two chief ministers is a good beginning; it must take an institutionalised shape for the good of the two people. Let the commonalities between the people of the two Punjabs form one of the sound bases for good neighbourly relations between India and Pakistan. The friendship lies not in erasing borders, but in erasing the communal hate-line dividing the hearts. Bulleh Shah said: ‘Kitey Ram Das, kitey Fateh Mohammed; ehya kadeemi shour, nipat gaya dohan da jhagra, wichoon nikal piya koi haur, meri bukul dey wich chaur.’


Name: Sameer -
E-mail: sameer123@hotmail.com
Comments:  

KahloN Ji:

I have been frequently visiting this site and front page but due to limited knowledge of Panjabi literature and other areas of Panjabiat staying away from repetitively using history and activism I am better adept to. Besides Panjabiat is on the rise, without a doubt in my mind. It turns out that only hurdle has been the hangover of last 150 year of history and lack of promotional enthusiasm from Punjabis.

Let me express my views about some of the recent talk in the wake of thaw in Indo-Pakistan relations and successful world Panjabi Conference in Lahore. In my opinion, the thaw in relations and declaration of Musharraf-Vajpai summit with no mention of words Panjabi, Sindhi and Mohajirs is not worth the tissue paper in the bathroom as far as Pakistanis are concerned. Nations belong to the people above all and these three words represent 85 percent of Pakistanis. If Mohajirs can not have access to their kin in UP, if Sindhis can not meet Indian Sindhis and if Punjabis are not allowed to develop brotherly relations, two sherwani-clad leaders’ handshake offers nothing. While it is good to have good relations with the neighbors they should precede or accompany by the improvement of relationships with brothers. Making up with brother (or sister) comes before making up with neighbors.

Now to WPC and M. A. Niazi’s article from Nation daily. M. A. Niazi has been writing well in favor of people’s rights and democracy in Pakistan. He belongs to a group of well-integrated Punjabis called Jullundhary Pathans – Munir Niazi the poet also belongs to this group. They are doing well in Pakistan, particularly in the higher positions in the military with one famous ISI chief Akhtar Abdul Rehman who was killed in the plane crash along with Zia Ul Haq. His son is a minister and member of Assembly from Lahore, HumayuN Akhtar Khan. Many of his cousins are higher ranking army officers.

There were many Pathan settlements in Panjab during long history of central Asian rule over India ( I believe Sirhind was one of them and the history attached with this city through Guru Gobind Singh). In another famous incident, mythologized in Pakistan as Abdali invading India to rescue Muslims was actually an invasion to rescue Pathan settlement which was under siege by some Sikh misl. The resentment between Pathan settlements and Sikhs have history of animosity and it might have played some role during partition riots. This is just a guess by me. And that showed up in his article against Sikhs/ Jats. So really we should not take it as major Pakistani Panjabi mindset in anyway. There has been another much better and detailed article by a very respected journalist who is a Panjabi but not associated with WPC. I will post Imtiaz Alam’s article from The News daily in a separate post after this one.

The partition riots in my opinion are not a hurdle in any making up of Punjabis or promotion of Panjabi languae. It is one of those issue that is good to write books, create fictions surrounding it, writing songs and making movies. It is no different than famous evil mother-in-law or honor killing in Pakistan and AIDS in USA. They are all real things and must be dealt with full attention but due to the power of the theme, plot and activism, the rational assessment of the situation is lost. AIDS is not the biggest killer, cancer is but AIDS gets more publicity. In a population of 140 million Pakistanis, a low number of half a million or one million extra-marital affairs or infidelity is not exaggeration. In most cases, brothers, sisters, wives, husbands and parents know it and try to overcome it one way or the other. But in 500 or so cases, the woman involved is murdered as honor killing. Now there is no justification for it but it is less than 0.01 percent of all affairs taking place at any time or in 99.99 cases are dealt with non lethal means. It is true of partition riots also. Not only most people did not participate and new generation has no memory of it but most people were able to migrate. It is a slap on the face to tell that 7 millions moved one way, seven millions moved other way and 200,000-500,000 died either killed or due to other poor conditions. If everybody was blood thirsty as these stories exaggerate, how come 14 millions escaped with basically no protction. One can not make a case for 4 million jews killed in Auschwitz and 10 million escaping from Auschwitz. That is why the survivor of Auschwits are (or believed to) less than a 1000. The rioting was carried out by criminal elements, for material gains and for hatred of other religions. Most people did not and do not belong to these categories. Go to any village in Pakistani Panjab and nobody is talking about India-Pakistan, partition riots, Hindus and Sikhs or even Kashmir. That is where majority of Punjabis live. There are two Panjabs in Pakistan, one is urban and other is rural. The urban is progressive, able to speak Urdu, generates wealth but suffers from many malaises too. They are influenced by the bombardment for 56 years of the mytholigized history of partition and India and Kashmir in addition to textbooks in schools. They have transnational loyalties split between Islam/ Ummah, Pakistan and Panjab. The ratio of these identities varies from person to person and partition rioting and history of power transfer in 1947 helps elevate Islam and Pakistan identity at the expense of Panjabi identity. Additionally Urdu is also closely tied to Islam more than Pakistan. Except for Urdu poetry and fiction, writing and reading are mostly used in madrassahs and the language of religious material. The spoken Urdu is not as closely tied to religion tough.

With pressure from within and from outside to change the Islamic zeal, control the extremists and terrorists and government working to oblige these demands, Urdu is likely to suffer for its ties to religion. There are not many madrassahs in Sindh and Islamic fundamentalism is low because they are chosen to stay with Sindhi language instead of Urdu. In this climate of reversing the wrong trends, Panjabi and other native languages are likely to benefit. Moreover, economic situation also demand better relations with a faster growing economy across the border.

KahloN Ji, aiven afsos na kitta karo….once a panjabi, always a panjabi…kadi kadi phera launday rahNge……chalo tuhaday lai baad ich ik do panjabi poems di urdu poetic translation vi hazir karaNge….aiven ik din baithay baithay khyal aaya, keh transliteration kittie javey….khush raho


Name: Tayyab -
E-mail: zan_ali34@hotmail.com
My URL:
Comments:   The point I'm making about the Punjabi spoken in East and West Punjab is that in West Punjab Punjabi words are replaced by Urdu words and then East Punjabis don't understand them and vice versa. For example instead of saying varha we say saal, instead of saying haRh we say sailab instead of saying Tabbar we say khandan and in E Punjab they say parivar and that way we have difficulty understanding each other. I'm not discriminating any languages here, Urdu was my mother tongue along with punjabi, all I'm saying is that we should use PUNJABI words where they are available and I also don't have any problem with borrowing words from other languages. All I want to say is that we have the same words so we can understand each other! I have just learnt to read Gurmukhi and there are heaps of Hindi words that I find when I read in Gurmukhi. What the words Nischit, anubhav, vatavaran, vishvasghat, anusar (I hope i spelt them right) and many other words mean I have no idea. kaurasach, I know Gurmukhi is a script and a language but that's what I thought before learning Gurmukhi that it was a language.


Name: suman -
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   Sajid. Sad to know that Mallika Pukhraj has passed away. On my last trip to India I got a book which was basically an autobiography - selections from her diaries. Very interesting in the peek it gave into a different age, culture and era. Her childhood and youth in the court of Hari Singh of Kashmir was fascinating. And we remember her for the joy her music gave to so many people.


Name: Akhilesh -
E-mail: HiTMaN9497@aol.com
My URL: http://www.lokpunjab.com/
Location: ,      Europe
Comments:   Dear Shahid Ji,

I dont think the question of loyalty to ones "own motherland" (As put by Pervaiz Elahi) is an issue as it relates to Punjab. I think the insecurities displayed by a few that Punjabis will embrace eachother and then turn their backs on the rest of the subcontinent has no basis in reality. This kind of thinking comes from people who dont want peace and dont want to see Punjabis progress on either side of the border.

Anyway, i just want to bring the script issue to light again. (I am sorry if i am being a burden on everyone). Its all very well and good that there is talk of starting new bus and train services between East and West Punjab, having frequent cultural, student and political exchanges, opening new trade routes and even reopening Hussainwala border (Ferozpure) etc but i feel that the most important gap to be bridged first has to be the language.

As it relates to language one of the biggest gaps to be bridged is the issue of written Punjabi. The solution however is so simple, ie, introduce learning of both scripts into all schools of Punjab. West Punjab can do the bulk of its written Punjabi in Shahmukhi, East Punjab can do it in Gurmukhi, theres no problem with that. However, both sides should be able to read and write the other script. I have read on other sites that some people have suggested their be a "neutral" script (Punjabi in Roman). Why is that necessary and how is that "neutral"? Scripts and languages cant be communalized on religion. Proof of this is the fact that non-Muslims speak Arabic and non Brahmins have learned Sanskrit.

The idea of teachings both scripts to all Punjabis is one of APNA's main objectives. By suggesting that we just let the language and script in East Punjab go one way and in West Punjab go another simply defeats the purpose of this organization.

Ps, I agree with kaurasach that for many Punjabis separation was forced upon them. Actually, if going by the figures given by the writer of "Jat rulers and old pain" we can say that 15 million Punjabis were forced out.

I hope i have not offended anyone, these i just my opinions and im not saying they are right.


Name: rajeev -
E-mail: fakeemail@donnotspam.com
Comments:   kaurasach veer jee with due repect i have a different take on this... i am not good at articulating but let me try...

first of all, sanskrit da parhez changa nahin.. punjabi can exist synergetically with both sanskrit and urdu etc... many other languages have and they have prospered... bengali would be a pertinent example, i think... in an effort to promote our language we do not have to put other languages down! gurunanak dev jeee and many other gurus wrote in "khadee hindi" and guru gobind singh jee wrote in persian and braj bhasha even after a fairly developed gurmukhi alphabet.. the point is, that disowning or frowning upon another language wont do... every language is no less divine than the other...

hindi itself has borrowed freely from both sanskrit and persian and is doing fine i think.. hun jae punjabi change karan jaayeeae tae what are we going to call "guru" in punjabi, what should be call "brahm", etc etc.... the metamorphosis of language takes place with divine influences me thinks.. look at how punjabi was enriched by its assosciation and osmosis with our gurus and sufis.. look at how it bloomed at the touch of wnadering minstrels... i do not think that punjabi is any poorer because of some urdu/persian words used by baba bulley shah, or baba farid...

i think that blanket statements like "urdu is killing punjabi" or "sanskrit is killing punjabi" are not very pragmatic.. i firmly believe that punjabi can grow if it ASSIMILATES.. otherwise, you can see how capt. amrinder singh was pussy-footing on shahmukhi script... meri tae ahi arz hai ki, sanskrit/urdu di contribution noon vee rab di naymat samjho.. and let us build an even grander cultural edifice on that..

jae kuj galti hoi hove te muaaf karna.. wahe guru ji ka khalsa wahe guru ji ki fateh


Name: kaurasach -
E-mail: kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:   Suman, I agree that British were evil in the way they left their former colonies not only in Punjab but in Africa and Middle East. But one has to note and agree that the "love", and ties and bonds, everyone is talking about wasn't strong enough to sustain the British game. The hostility that came into open was simmering underneath before the British came. They just fanned the sparks into flames.
Tayyab, Gurmukhi is a script not a language. And I checked Mahan Kosh against the words we use. More than 50% of Punjabi spoken today is polluted with Arabic and Sanskrit words. Some of the words being used in East Punjab are not understood by Hindi speakers. It is a scheme to reintroduce Sanskrit. And we have none other to blame than Punjabis themselves who suffer from inferiority complex and illusion that using Hindi/Urdu words will alleviate their status.
Kahlon, Amrinder and Elahi were wrong in stating that East and West Punjabi's "CHOSE" their separate destination. It was FORCED upon them.


Name: Sajid Chaudhry -
E-mail: sajid@brain.com.pk
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Location: Multan, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   A Sad News Malika Pukhraj Passed away today in lahore


Name: suman -
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   Prem Ji. I was just being flippant about the suing remark. However, the British did have some responsiblity for the events of partition - though it is pointless to throw blame in any direction after 50 years. Furthermore, the seeds of our destruction lie within ourselves. The funny thing is that the older generation of Punjabis, who lived thru the partition, seem to have more inclusive views about one another - with obvious exceptions ofcourse.


Name: Shahid -
E-mail: mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:  
What is fascinating to watch is the power of media: how it can elevate nothing to something and back to nothing at some other convenient time.

We all have read the events of 47 and often blamed British for everything bad and wash off our own (or our elders) hands of immaturity and short-sightedness. The actual history goes way back when British were not around. 47 was, as if, to get even at something from the past. Unfortunately, memories cast long and often permanent shadows.

The fact remains that religion plays a very strong and central role in the life of Panjabi's back home and even here (to gauge the truth of my statement just read posts of many friends at this very Forum, and do not look at their religious affiliation - they all have their own distinct colors. Even the Bhangra generation and those born after the partition are not immune to this. All one needs to do is seriously observe and read into it.

The fact remains, despite a very small overlap of commonality in the Panjabi language of the East and West Panjab which has been getting even smaller everyday since partition (I think I have a pretty good Panjabi literary background, but I must confess that even I cannot understand almost 50% of the Panjabi from the East - and I am not alone on this point), and even last names being similar on both sides of the border, and even politically hyped environment of the present, there are clear realities, expectations, agendas and philosophies (just read the opening statements of the two CMs about borders). East Panjab chose its destiny and so did the West Panjab. They are distinctly different and they will and should remain so. The true sense of responsibility demands that both sides respect and not bruise each others loyalities. Peace of minds and peace in those lands hinges on that.

Forgiving is virtue but forgetting can be a curse. What happened in the past, nobody can bring back. Like many, I worry about future that with such a distinctly different 'cultural', 'religious' 'linguistic' make-up where heros of one are enemies for the other, histroy can and most probably will repeat itself. Then there will be no British to put the blame on. Best is to stay put with our own preferred language, culture and life-styles and support each other, if that be possible without hurting each other. That way nobody has to worry about what script is ideal for writing ones Panjabi.


Name: Akhilesh -
E-mail: HiTMaN9497@aol.com
My URL: http://www.lokpunjab.com/
Location: ,      Europe
Comments:   Sat Sri Akaal.

I dont think that anyone should forget the partition riots of 1947, but there is no reason why we cant forgive eachother for what our elders had done. The writer is wrong in trying to suggest that the only organised killings occurred in the East Punjab princely states. He/she has obviously turned a blind eye to the militant wing of the Muslim League party at that time.

By manipulating events of history to suit your own agenda you will never be able to progress. I feel sorry for people who force themselves to dwell on hate and events of the past.

I agree with DullaBhatti Ji that Amrinder Singh was very hypocritical regarding the issue of Punjabi scripts. Personally, i think Shahmukhi classes should be compulsory for all East Punjab schools. Im not suggesting that it should be introduced right from 'Class 1' (Or whatever system they have) but it should be taught to all children at some stage of their schooling. I mean, its not like its a new language they are learning, so how hard or strenuous can it be? All it involves is learning how to correctly write your own mother-tongue using a different alphabet. The Shahmukhi script is part of our heritage and culture afterall.

I read an article last month that every sign board in Delhi will now have Punjabi. Sometime in the future i hope that Shahmukhi will be available on signboards in East Punjab.

Along with the cultural and sport exchanges between East and West Punjab that have been discussed, i would also suggest that there should be a joint project on the history of Punjab. Punjab's history as told in books should not be different depending on which side of the border you're on. It should be exactly the same, word for word. In my opinion.

Ok, i'll leave it there for now with these two articles i came across on Chandigarh Tribune.

"A journey down the memory lane"
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040204/ldh1.htm#3

"Capturing soul of Baba Farid’s philosophy"
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040203/ldh1.htm#10


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rupe@panindia.com
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   I am a Punjabi born in the West. I have taught myself without help, as best I can Punjabi. I am trying best to write in Gurumukhi, but need lots of help with my spelling and grammer.
If anyone is willing to help me, especially in improving poor spelling and grammer in my story, please contact me.
I will be grateful
If it works, to my knowledge I am first UK Born person to try a write a story in Punjabi.
Below is my second chapter, which I think has no mistakes in it
Regards
Rupe
hVH iek h&qw gogI dy sMskwr bwAd ipMf ivc hnyrI AweI[ ieMnI zbrdsq hnyrI mYN kdy nhIN sI dyKI[ swrI rwq kihrvwn ho geI sI[ drvwzy KVky,iKVkIAW v~jIAW qy AsIN fr gey ik C~q swfy au~pr hI nw if~g pvy[ svyr dy pMj vjy sB lok pwT krn leI au~Tdy sn[ ijnHW nMU nINd vI AweI sI, auh vI hvw dy Sor nwl au~T KVHy sn[ keI lok i&kr krdy sI ik JIl ClkUgI[ies C~l nwl ipMf iv~c hVH Aw jwxw sI[ lwl jI turdw iPrdw lokW nMU idlwsw idMdw sI[ sB nMU aucI QW vl Byjdw irhw sI[ ndI dI C~l nwl pwxI sVkW qy Aw igAw sI[ iPr sVkW qy ipMf Kyq pwxI nwL Br gey sI[ jdoN qVkw hoieAw, cwr cuPyry pwxI hI pwxI sI[ kbrsqwn vI pwxI nwl BirAw ipAw sI[ pr goirAW dw klIsw aucy QW qy sI qy AsIN sB au~Qy cly gey sW[ isr& eyhI iemwrq su~kI sI[ gurdvwrw vI ieMnw ^uSiksmq nhIN sI[ bldyv dw Fwbw vI pwxI nwl BirAw ipAw sI, pr auh Fwby qoN bwhr in~klx leI zrw vI iqAwr nhIN sI[ Swm q~k, pwxI swrw vihxIAW krky JIl iv~c vwps Aw igAw sI[ pwxI isr& sVkW qy bxy K~FlW Aqy nIvyN KyqW iv~c KVHw rih igAw sI[ lokIN Awpxy GrW nMU hoey nukswn dw ihswb ikqwb lw rhy sn [ QoVHy ipMf vwsIAW qoN Cu~ut rwq q~k klIsw ^wlI ho igAw sI[ hwr ky bldyv nMU vI Fwbw C~fky klIsy ‘c Awauxw ipAw sI[ swrw klIsw slHwb igAw sI [ gurdvwry dw gRMQI vI sI jo ik rihrws dw pwT krn l~g ipAw sI[ klIsy iv~c isr& hux lwl jI, bldyv, mYN, pRIq mwsI qy ie~k cOhwn prvwr sI[ AjIb g`l qW ieh sI ik klIsy dy Q~ilEN au~cI Bbk vrgI Awvwz AweI, jo ik iksy cuVyl dI cIk vrgI sI[ pwT suxnw AOKw ho igAw sI[ pRIq mwsI jI Gr leI pRwrQnw peI krdI sI[ nwly mwsI jI nUM kmry iv~c bldyv dI hwzrI cMgI nhIN sI l~g rhI[ jdoN gRMQI jI ny pwT dIAW Aw^rI pMkqIAW pVHIAW, qW AYsw zor dw KVwk hoieAw, ijvyN C~q au~qy do byVIAW Awps iv~c tkrw ho geIAW hox[ ijvyN AsIN swry boly ho gey hoeIey [ myrI nzr lwl jI v~l geI qy iPr iek pl bldyv vl[ klIsy dy Q~ly purwxy smyN qoN AMgryzW dy qwbUq pey sn[ iek smW sI, jdoN ies QW qy msIq hoieAw krdI sI[ ies msIq dy Q~ly (jW klIsy dy) guMbj sI[ sB nMU pqw sI ik ies guMbj ivc kurySIAW dy qwbUq bYTy sn[ lwl jI dy bwpU ny aunHW nMU disAw sI pMjwh qo aupr kurySI ieQy sn[ ienHW ivc hI Amd ^wn vI sI[ bldyv qoN C~ut AsIN swry frdy mwry Awps iv~c nyVy ho gey[ AsIN qy ieMny frdy sI ik klIsw C~f ky dOVn qo vI jkdy sW[ kurySIAW dy guMbj ivc kuC ih~ilAw mihUss hoieAw[ jdoN vI qwbUqy Awps ivc zor nwl vjdy, qW bldyv vI lwl jI vl byAwrwmI nwl dyKdw[ hVH ny klIsy dy hyTW CotI jhI JIl bxw id~qI sI[iPr iekdm zbrdsq Dmwkw hoieAw, KoKlw cuVyl dy Sor vrgw[ b~s bhuq ho igAw sI! cOhwn qy pRIq mwsI jI tur pey[ bwhr qW hux hVH au~qr igAw sI[ ip~Cy isr& mYN, gRMQI jI, bldyv qy lwl jI hI rih gey sW[ mYN qW nhIN ih~ilAw mqW mYnMU koeI frpok smJy[BwvyN mYN Amd ^wn dy BUq qoN frdw sI[gRMQI vI tur pey[ auh vI nhIN fr dKOxw cwhuMdy sn[bldyv ibnW boilAW qoN hI bwhr cly igAw sI[myrw idl kih irhw sI “ c~l! in~kl c~l”[ lwl jI qy gRMQI Awps iv~c g`lbwq krn l`gy, ‘qy A^Ir mYN vI tur ipAw [ “ vwihgurU! cuVylW qw jwg peIAW ” lwl jI boly[“ieh g`l qw BoLw BwLw hY[ gurUu nwnk ny ikhw sI ik vihm pUry bysurI cIz hn[koeI Buq-Bwq nhIN hY[ Aw ijhVy KVky AsIN suxy sn, ieh qW qwbUq Awps ivc vjdy sn[ hVH Awaux nwL pwxI &wirS hYtw pwr gIAW sI[ aunHW dy Koh qwbUqW jfo Awps ivc KVwk dy qyrIAW dIAW cuVylW hn[ hW, inrjIv swfy pYrW dy Q~ly hn, pr mry pey hn[ Pyr lwl swihb, b`icAW nMU frwE nw,” gRMQI ny jvwb id`qw[ Pyr vI mYN ht nhIN sikAw kurYSIAW dIAW dIAW gLIAW lwSW myry ic~q ivc sn[ mYnMU koeI smJ nhIN sI, kYsy muslmwn qy iesweI Awpxy ipAwrW nMU d&n krdy hn[isr& gLy mws qy h`fIAW dw socky mYN kMbx l~g ipAw[myrw iDAwn lwl jI Aqy gRMQI v~l vwps Aw igAw sI[ “ mYN qW BweI kyvl is~Dw swdw bMdw hW,” lwl jI gRMQI nMU kih irhw sI, “ qy mYnUM ku~J hVHW qy kudrq dw pqw hY[mYN isr& ieh jwxdw sB kurYSI imldy, burI nzr cMdjhwzIlI ?huMdy hY[ nwLy mYN qw rySm nMU qor dyxw cwhuMdw hW[ muMifAW nMU pUrw pqw hoxw cwhIdw hY, iks qo dUr rihxw cwhIdw[” mYnMU AYsw l~igAw ik myry leI ieh cyqwvnI sI[ mYnMU aus vyly bhuqI smJ nhIN AweI ik auh qW myry ^wny hI ieh g`l pwauNdw sI[ gu~sy nwl lwl jI vI bldyv dy mgr hI tur ipAw[ mYN iPr gRMQI jI nwl mwsI jI dy Gr v~l tur ipAw[ “ rySm pu`q,” gMRQI boilAw “Awmd ^wn dy cwlclx ny kurySIAW dy ^wndwn dy nW nMU lwj lw id~qI, auhny ipMf nMU nws hox id`qw[ bhuq hI GtIAw jwgrIdwr sI [ aus vyly qoN hI ipMf dI iksmq burI ho geI[ ausdI lwprvwhI qy bdkwr nIAqW ny s`iqAwnws kr ‘qw … mrn qo pihlW, ausny drgwh qy pScwqwp krn Awey ny sB kuC kwzI nMU d~s ‘qw sI … Bwv ik ausny nIlw nUr hIrw ikvyN hwsl kIqw sI… isr& svrg pONhcx leI … pr Awmd ^wn sB kJ TIk Twk kronw cwhuMdw sI ... nvwb nMU hIrw vwps qW dy nhIN sI skdw … pr ipMf vwilAW nMU dy ky qW ipMf dy nsIb bdl skdw sI … rqn nwl ivsirAW KyqW qy BVolIAW nMU murMmq krn leI pYsy hogy ??[ pr mOkw nhIN imilAw d~sx dw ik hIry nUM ik~Qy tolHx…” “ ^Yr Awp l~Bx jwxw sI ?” mYN svwl kIqw [ “ho skdY, pr auh pUrw ho igAw cMdjhwzI ipMf dI m~dd nw krn krky lok mMndy Aw ik auhdw Buq quirAw iPrdw hY[ijMnw icr l~Bky Awpxy pwpW nUM nHIN imtONdw” gRMQI dsdw mYnMU zrUr sI, pr keI ieh nMU khwxI smJdy sn[ mYN QoVw icr leI soicAw[ gRMQI mYnUM Gr C~fky clw igAw [ pRIq mwsI jI dIAW ikqwbW qy keI qsvIrW qy iek kursI hVH ivc ruVH geIAW[auh qW mMjy qy audws bYTI sI[ mYN koiSS kIqI aunHW nMU ^uS krW[pr myrw swrw iDAwn qW qwbUqW Aqy Awmd dy BUq v~l hI irhw [ Agly idn mYN skUloN frky KyqW ivcoN B~jky kbrsqwn cly igAw[ mYN suxnw cwhuMdw sI ik kI klIsy dy Q`ly qwbUq hwly vI KVwk kr rhy sn [ lwl jI kol cwbI sI[ pr mYN aunHW nMU pu~C nhIN skdw sI, ikauNik auhnW ny mYnUM ^brdwr kIqw sI ik mYN ku~J nw pu~CW qy prHy hI rhW[ ^Yr, mYN au~Dr jwx dI dlyrI nw kr sikAw[mYN kMD dy nyVy igly isly Gwh qy pY ky KVwk suxn dI koiSS kIqI[ koeI KVwk nw suixAw[ieh au~qr pwsw sI[ mYN au~Tky d`Kx pwsy igAw[jd mYN klIsy dy d`Kx pwsy igAw qW do AwdmIAW nUM dyK ky dMg rih igAw[ieh do bMdy sn lwl jI Aqy bldyv isMG[ bldyv isMG dI myry v~l ip~T sI qy auh bYTw JIl v~l dyK irhw sI [lwl jI ny kMn DrqI nwl lwey hoey sn [ mYN iekdm Srmw igAw[ mYN ie~Qy kI krn AwieAw sI? mYN SrwrqI nhIN sI? lwl jI ny mYnMU cyqwvnI nhIN id`qI sI? Pyr vI mYN au~Qy KVHw irhw[ mYN Pyr boilAw, “siq sRI Akwl”. iek dm myrI Avwz suxky lwl jI is`Dw ho ky KVH igAw sI[ lwl jI dw mUMh s`cIN lwl ho igAw[ jd QoVHy ijhy SWq ho gey qy boly, “ siq sRI Akwl bytw[ qMU kwhqoN ie~Qy AwieAYN?” “ mYN qW ie~Qy kurySIAW dy qwbUqW dw KVwk suxn AwieAw sI ”[ “ A`Cw ! eyh qW mYN qYnMU d~s nhIN skdw… hux q~k qW pwxI inco gIAw ho gw[qMU myry Gr jwky myrw QoVw swnU ley Aw, ikauNik AsIN dyKdy ky klIsy dIAW kMDW hVH nwl qW nhIN F`TIAW[ jw B~j”, lwl jI ny mYnUM AwdyS id`qw[ mYnMU hux pUrw pqw sI, ik kMDW qW p`kIAW sI, qy ieh isr& bhwnw sI[ iPr vI mYN aunHW ny jo kuJ AwiKAw kr ‘qw sI[ mYN c`ly igAw[ jd mYN vwps muVky AwauNdw sI, donoN bMdy A`Dy rwh q~k Aw gey sI [ korw JUT boldy sI[mYnUM kihMdy ik hQOVy dI koeI loV nhIN sI [ lwl jI boilAw, “ jy qyry kol ienHW K`ulHw tYm hY myry ausdI tOhr vl kwlo Aw jI ” iPr AsIN iqMny hI lwl jI dy Gr v~l tur pey [ mYN dyiKAw ik bldyv dIAW A`KW ivc muskrwht vrgI cmk sI[ bldyv lwl jI dI prySwnI ‘qy h~s irhw sI [ iek h&qw bwAd ipMf dI kmytI dI mIitMg klIsy iv~c ho rhI sI, qy mYN vI jw Swiml hoieAw[ hVH qo bwAd bldyv n klIsy nihry nhIN i&r gey sI[ hVH qo bwAd mYN kdI vI kurySIAW nMU imlidAW nhIN suixAw sI[ iPr vI mYN socIN jwvW, ik ieh dono aus idn kbrsqwn ‘c kI krdy sn?


Name: Tayyab -
E-mail: zan-ali34@hotmail.com
Comments:   Hi everybody. I am really sick of people saying that Punjabi and Urdu/Hindi are the same language. Well, in my opinion it is really our fault. Why are there so many Hindi and urdu words in Punjabi? We ignore the Punjabi words and use the Urdu/Hindi words instead. I have difficulty understanding East Punjabi news broadcasts and I'm sure east punjabis won't be able to understand west Punjabi news broadcasts. How do we say the word Prime Minister in Punjabi? In West Punjab it is Wazir-e-azam and in east Punjab it is Pardhan Mantri. Has anybody any idea where we're heading? West Punjabi is merging into Urdu and East Punjabi into Hindi. Why can't we have the same punjabi words in both Punjabs? Then we'll both be able to understand each other and no body will say that Punajbi is the same as Hindi/Urdu. That's why some Pakistani people also think that Gurmukhi is not Punjabi because of all the Hindi words used.


Name: Sukhbir Garewal -
E-mail: sugrewal@hotmail.com
Comments:   Following text is taken from a longish piece by Dr Madan Gopal Singh. Thought it might be of interest to a few.

Regards.

Sukhbir

Spells of Love – Spelling Hope

Madan Gopal Singh

Who would you describe as a Sufi? A tough question and not infrequently posed in these days of market-driven installations of Sufism and a lot else besides. Who indeed could be a Sufi? To this homogenizing query, I have no answer. In my ill-concealed discomfiture I often turn to other, somewhat innocuous and pedantic, questions. What is Sufi music? What is a sama ceremony? What is zikr? What is kaifiat? What is maqaam? Who is a laamakaan? What are the aalaats in Sufi music? The questions begin to grow even as the area of knowledge begins to acquire precision and possibly unbridled spiritual quest…

The earliest memories I have of Sufi-recitations bring back the image of women in our household rising into the last leg of the nocturnal darkness to tend to the unremitting circle of daily chores. These are abstemious images of feminine piety. My mother and my grandmother, I identified as the inhabitants of the twilight zones when evenings turned into nights and nights into the first faint rays of a gentle morn. These were their exclusive moments. This was the time when they recited verses from the Holy Granth of the Sikhs in mild musical whispers taking care not to disturb the malingering, somnolent males. Little did I realize then that the resonance of what I heard was never going to leave me and realized even less that much of what I heard was Baba Farid and Kabir and not merely the Gurus whom my community followed so fervently. This was for me to remain the foundational strength of our syncretic joie de vivre where we recited, sang and listened to poems not knowing, not caring to know, what the religion of the poet was.

My father often joined me in, what now appear to me through a haze of poetic nostalgia, mesmerizing games of pictographic imagination. The Sufis from Chisht must have crossed over from the Hindu Kush. How would they have responded to the ‘other’ side of the darra khyber or the Khyber pass? Why did the traders always carry the spiritual savants with them on their difficult journeys? In addition to goods they carried on their horses’ back, what else did they exchange? How did they devise new languages to reach across alien sounds? How drastically did the landscape change for them and how would they respond to such changes? Did they accidentally walk into dreamscapes of unexpected colours, into unknown tonalities of light? Did they find the icy winds rising from the chest of glacial ice in a ghoulish dance difficult to negotiate? Did they ever remember the home they left behind? Did all this not kindle their imaginations into sudden spontaneous spurts of creativity – into songs and poems and dance?

These ashiqs often entered into a wondrous celebration of ecology not unlike the hymns that were once chanted by the vedic travelers in transits… also by the lovelorn wayfarers in Kalidas…away from home and in remembrance… They entered into exchange and connectivity in a continuity of space. This is not how the colonizing Europe had approached us post-renaissance – disconnected as the continent was from Asia, Africa and the Americas by a violently neutral sea. The Sufis were earth-bound mystics who traveled as both nomads and monads – both unfettered with a being as porous as the wind and their reflective self inscrutably unavailable to the world outside. They freely traversed the registers of high and low cultures and with equal ease. They were steeped in a paradox of creativity. The notes they entered in music – the vowel and the nasal sounds – were constructed not a bit like the homes they had constructed but in time left without an overt sense of loss that appropriative possessions necessarily entail. The Sufis were not one but many. It is all the more important, therefore, to choose our Sufi.

They had come to us from Chisht, Khorasan, Samarkand. They had also followed another route: from the Persian city of Hamadan they had entered the valley of Kashmir. How would they react even as they entered a space that was the closest to the imagined and long promised jannat as a reward for a life of piety and compassion? Is it hard to imagine how they would have consecrated Lal Ded, a Hindu Shaivite poetess from Kashmir, within the none-too-reverent a pantheon of Sufi saints and mendicant poets? Do we gape in wonderment at the magic wand with which they convincingly installed a Muslim Sufi saint Nooruddin as a rishi?

… Much later as I grew up my father told me about the 16th century Punjabi Sufi poet, Shah Husain, who like Kabir was a weaver but who insistently submerged his identity with that of his Hindu friend Madho Lal and wrote a bulk of his poetry in his name. And it did not take me too long to realize that the famous Punjabi love-legend, Heer Ranjha, was in fact a pulsating metamorphosis of the Hindu Radha Krishna myth into the contemporary lived of the Muslim Punjab. A Kaya Taran as it was. Likewise, Amir Khusrau’s forays into the qawwali I began to see clearly as a genre evolving and deepening in its spiritual content as a result of his interrupted sojourn in Multan and proximity to the followers of his murshed’s teacher Baba Farid of Pak Pattan.

For Khusrau, the fluvial confluence of myriad languages of the Indic topography held an abiding lure. He would often write poems with one verse running in Persian and replicate the metre with precise exactitude in a local dialect in the next. This wouldn’t have been possible had he not been intoxicated by the colours of the Indic community life – its rites of passage, for one; its work culture for another and its seasons and festivals for yet another. Its aromas, its kitchens! It is not surprising therefore to find him responding with such impassioned intensity to the irresistible charm of the mustard fields in full bloom much like the folk rythms of the indigenous life did. Intoxicated, they seemed to traverse the registers of classicity and folk-culture with equal abandon. They joyously joined in the carnival of seasons. They composed and sang the baramaha - the almanac of our lives’ temporal cadence. They made poetic installations of Toona – casting irrational spells to extend the domain of love. In this case at least the quasi-outsider, Hazrat Amir Khusrau, as much a native of a small village called Patiali as of a forgotten Turko-Persian lineage, provided unambiguous lead to the Punjabi poet Baba Bulle Shah. They wafted along the floating gauze of abir and gulal to traverse across the ‘other’ to suture religious divides through the carnivals of secular creativity. Thus would they transgress their own written unwritten codes and depict the Caliphate itself participating in the Hindu festival of Holi

The impassioned music of the Sufis also harboured a deeply internalized sense of the landscape. Nearly always! This is what I call an ecology of emotions. Listen then to Alim Qasimov and his daughter Ferghana from Azerbaijan, Shahram Nazeri from Kurdistan, Nusrat Fateh Ali essentially from the Doab of Punjab, the Bhit Shah Faqirs from Sind, Pathane Khan from Multan

It is this music that we need to rescue today from the insensitive economies of intolerance on one hand and on the other the decorative desires to fetishize it as an antiquarian monolith meant only for gastronomic consumption. The need therefore is to celebrate it as a genuinely living tradition.


Name: P S Kahlon -
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Comments:   Suman Jee;

You may already know this but it is worth repeating.

Amrinder Singh in Lahore," Nothing could divide Punjabi culture,the way of living, the language and love. The British rulers divided them in 1947, but no border could erase the centuries old love between them."

Elahi coutered it by saying that though Pakistani and Indian Punjabis shared the same language yet nothing could be--- there is no alternative to one's own country"

I am reminded of what Sameer Jee ( I wish he will come back to this forum)once said that most of the Pakistanis were born after Partition and they only know what is being fed to them these days. They have no idea that Hindus/Sikhs/ Muslims lived side by side peacefully until 1946. May be one day I will write something about it. I remembered that late Gian Singh KahloN ics (Fathr-in-law of Amrinder Singh) went to Lahore in !950's to negotiate River water dispute and when his name was published, lots of people got excited about it because they shared that name with him. My mother came from Bajwa family and my wife from Bhatti family. How many KahloNs, Bajwas, Bhattis, Cheemas, Sandhus and list goes on are sitting on each side of the border. I did not mean to be clanist but there were strong bonds of all kinds between Pujabis.


Name: suman -
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   The British had a large hand in the division and consequences of partition and this is rarely addressed. There are certainly a lot of Punjabis living in the UK who seem to have no problem seeing the past as the past. It is the religious divide that keeps on getting flogged. Maybe Niazi should sue the Queen and we can all see where that goes.


Name: kaurasach -
E-mail: kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:   i read Niazi's article in the Nation.
he is bitter towards the Patiala household because what happened 5 decades ago and it is understandable. Every person since partition has been directly or indirectly affected by the riots. each person reacts differently.
some persons who witnessed first hand humilated, forgave the criminals. on the other hand some who weren't directly affected still hold grudges against the other. that is just human nature.
the reconciliation should be steady gradual and without any hidden agendas.
another point is that the closeness that SOME punjabis feel is not shared by rest of India and Indians or Pakistanis. Inidans and Pak leaders at the time of partition had sacrificed Punjab. So they are not emotionally attached.
The reason I said SOME punjabis. With my interaction with a lot of Punjabis on either side, the feeling I came away with is that most are curious or have emotional and cultural attachment. But they don't want to make the mistake of trusting the other and 47 like situation. I know everyone on this form has cultural and literal pride in Punjabi. And usually a person like this sees across the divisive lines. But unfortunately very few people think like this.
I just hope the future of Punjab and Punjabis is much better than the last 6 decades. The "Grahan" or curse that has frowned on this land should go away.


Name: kaurasach -
E-mail: kaurasach@yahoo.com
Comments:   Punjabian tay punjab da bhawikh punjabian dey hath hona chahida hai. Poorbian day yaan mullayan deh nahin. A lot has changed since I last logged on 3 weeks ago. Mera computer kharab ho giya see. Pata ni kihne toona karta. Adh nangian loochian bibian mere computer dey kade ehdar bhajdian si kade ohdar. Khair, its nice to see new names, and punjabs coming together. Baaki, gal eh ai ay ke hun eh punjab da jurna hun permanent hee rave. Tey purbiay lalay tay mullay dakhal naa den. jehre bazurg apni maan dharti ton ujjhar kay gaye si, ohna noon darshan karan di khul ditti jaye. Mainun bara dukh lagda hai ke oh vicharian noo koi puchda nahin. Ainwain do CM border tey khlo kay photo kichon naal ni 47 tey malaam lagni. Regarding shahmukhi, it may become an option in E Punjab but is is not an ideal script for Punjabi.


Name: rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   http://www.sikhspectrum.com/022004/naunihal.htm
http://www.sikhspectrum.com/022004/heritage_b.htm Interesting articles. Has Nau Nihal lived, would Punjab as ahwole still be ruled from Lahore, with no mix up with Hindustan and Kashmir being independant?
Sikhs are Proud of Pakistani connection


Name: rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   http://www.sikhspectrum.com/022004/naunihal.htm http://www.sikhspectrum.com/022004/heritage_b.htm Interesting articles. Has Nau Nihal lived, would Punjab as ahwole still be ruled from Lahore, with no mix up with Hindustan and Kashmir being independant?
Sikhs are Proud of Pakistani connection


Name: Jaspreet Bassi -
E-mail: jasz_b@yahoo.com
Location: Toronto, ON     Canada
Comments:   Punjabi from primary level in Pak Punjab Tribune News Service Wagah, February 2 The west Punjab Government of Pakistan has decided to introduce Punjabi language course from primary school level. Stating this here today, Punjabi writer Dr Mahip Singh, who was part of the delegation which returned after attending the ninth World Punjabi Conference at Lahore, said the Chief Minister of western Punjab, Mr Parvez Elahi, had assured the delegates that his government would provide more than 10,000 jobs to postgraduates in Punjabi language for the purpose of teaching the language in schools, colleges and universities. Mr Pervej Elahi said his government would promote both Persian and Gurmukhi scripts at various levels and also start research to incorporate new vocabulary, as the Punjabi language had not developed in Pakistan as it had in India. He disclosed that debates in the Punjab assembly could now be conducted in Punjabi, as earlier only debates in Urdu were allowed. He said Lahore would soon have its own Punjabi newspaper. Another significant development during the conference was that all delegates unanimously condemned the acts of barbarism and killing of innocent people during the Partition turmoil. This was mentioned by Dr Harbhajan Singh Bhatia, Senior Professor Department of Punjabi, Guru Nanak Dev University, who also attended the conference.


Name: sardarz -
E-mail: sardarz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Akhlesh,
Thanks for posting the article "Jat rulers and old pain" By M.A. Niazi.
It provides a pretty good insight into the thought process of a contributor cloumnist of a well read Pakistani Newspaper.
I do not agree with Mr. Niazi's assesment of the whole situation,he wants a generation to pass by (30-40 yrs)before he wants us to see a Muslim CM posing with a Sikh CM.
He wants his generation to live in hatred because of a hedious crime commited against humanity involved his family.It is exactly this kind of thinking that has prevented the people of 3 faiths to live togeather,even when they share same language,culture and race.
I am deeply disappointed to read his views leave alone the fact that a major newspaper like THE NATION would print articles like this,the flare up in 1947 voilence amy very well have been due to writings of authors like Mr. Niazi on both sides,who may have wanted to draw blood due to some ghastly incidents of past commited by the opposite side.
The very notion of REVENGE in punjabi culture(or therefore subcontinent cuture) is not productive for co-existence.Wish troubled heads like Mr.Niazi think about FORGIVENESS


Name: Shahid -
E-mail: mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:  
gharoN kaDh beThoN hun chhaDD kheh'Ra
ohlay beTh kay jhatiyaN pawanay da


Name: Shahid -
E-mail: mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:  
gharoN kaDh beThoN hun chhaDD kheh'Ra ohlay beTh kay jhatiyaN pawanay da


Name: DullaBhatti -
E-mail: jagjit_naushehrvi@yahoo.com
My URL:
Comments:   Akhilesh, your points noted. I agree that Shahmukhi should be made optional in East Punjab schools. Or atleast start at late high school level. Amrinder Singh was hypocritical about it..asking for Gurmukhi in West Punjab but being quiet on Shahmukhi in East Punjab. I remember Punjabi Sahit Academy, Ludhiana some time last year passed a resolution to request East Punjab Govt to start optional Urdu/Shahmukhi classes. Above all I agree that the gap that has befallen the two Punjabs have to filled slowly and cautiously...to much rhetoric and too little action at grassroots level will backfire..exactly what some politicians will like to see. So it is the other group..of writers, artists, social activists etc that has to act cautiously and take things in control. Don't leave it to politicans..we know what they will lead us to. Have seen it before.


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   I have just read both the The Hindutsan and Nation articles. I think that peace from this can bot begin until:
People who committed atrocties on both sides recognise this and say sorry to each other
people see beyound Muslim, SIkh and Hindu
Mahrajahs are not included, Arvinder SIngh seems the wrong choice. Perhaps it should have been someone without any ties to partition. I am a Sikh, and have no problem with learning Shahmukhi ( Guru Gobind SINGH wrote in it for crying out loud, so why can't we?)
Finally the Hindu Govt and Pakistan Govt have to stop stirring
Rupe


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedlted.com
Location: London,      Uk
Comments:   I have been trailing the web, and have been unsucessful at finding a supplierf of Punjabi Movies...where can I get hold of these, or are Hindi movies the only ones considred?


Name: Akhilesh -
E-mail: HiTMaN9497@aol.com
My URL: http://www.lokpunjab.com/
Location: ,      Europe
Comments:   Shahid Ji thank you for the link, that was a very nicely written article.

However, there are always two sides to every story. While i am extremely happy to see the Punjabis on both sides of the border now making real efforts to rebuild the relationship and bond between East and West Punjab, i am one who also agrees that things should not be rushed but should be taken at a steady pace.

Not every Punjabi seems to be caught up in the thrill and nostalgia:

"Jat rulers and old pain":
http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/Feb-2004/2/national/lhr6.asp

I suppose my family are also these "Punjabi Mohajirs" as you say (Grandmothers family was from Gujranwala, Grandparents belonged to Lahore before partition), but i dont hold the same views as the person who wrote the above article. Although in saying that im sure it does reflect the views of quite a few who were forced by circumstances of that time to migrate out of their ancestral homes.

On another note, i was very disappointed to read that Capt Amrinder Singh reportedly showed a less than enthusiastic approach regarding the introduction of optional classes for 'Shahmukhi' script in East Punjab schools. This coming after Pervaiz Elahi had promised to introduce a class for Punjabi in Gurmukhi script in West Punjab schools:

Pak schools to start Gurmukhi:
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/5922_556669,0015002000000000.htm

I also do not like the favortism Capt Amrinder Singh is showing towards his own town, Patiala (Sorry i am sounding so negative about things). But it is good news that a World Punjabi Centre will be set up there, appreciate his efforts.

Anyway, one step at a time i suppose...

Eid Mubarrak to all Muslim friends!


Name: Shahid -
E-mail: mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:   A set of interesting comments entitled Punjabi touch and ‘untouchable’ on the recent 'east-west' Panjabi ferver in Lahore can be read under Opinion at the following link:

http://www.jang-group.com/thenews/index.html


Name: Shahid -
E-mail: mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:   A set of interesting comments entitled Punjabi touch and ‘untouchable’ on the recent 'east-west' Panjabi ferver in Lahore can be read under Opinion : at the following link

http://www.jang-group.com/thenews/index.html


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   Sab Noo Eid Mubaraak


Name: Navdeep -
E-mail: budhu_no_1@hotmail.com
Location: Leicester,      UK
Comments:   lao ji sab nu

EID MUBARAK SAJID JI tuhada bahut bahut dhanvad ji rab tuhanu khushiya bakshae. # Budhu


Name: Saeed -
E-mail: saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   I am just back in Rawalpindi from Lahore after attending two days of the three-days International Punjabi Conference. Today is the last day of the conference and tomorrow delegates will go back to their pavilions. (kal panchhee uD jaawan gey apne apne ahlN*iyaaN wal). MeyN apniyaaN akhiyaaN noon mal mal ke, te biT biT wekhdaa rehyaa ke jo sapna aj toN paNdraaN veeh saal pehlaaN wekhyaa see oh kujh kujh pooraa hundaa nazar aayaa. It was so good to see Punjab united in Flattee Hotel, Alhamra Hall, Lahore and at the shrine of Bullah Shah (Qasoor) where we all had bhangRaa together on the drum beats. What a nice gesture that the Sikh and the Muslim were dancing Bhangraa together. I also observed by standing in the corner of the tomb of Bullah Shah that how Sikhs and Hindus were touching the tomb of Baba Bullah Shah with their hands with profound regards. Sikhs baRey ehtraam de naal othey mathaa tek rahey see. Baba Bullah de darbar te rakhey galey (cash box) wich currency notes vee paa rahey see. Baba Bullah de maqbarey (tomb) te aqeedat de naal khalotey Muslim, Sikh te Hindu Kinney sohN*ey lag rahey see. I also observed that how Sikhs and Muslims (a few Hindus too) were cheering up together and talking with each other with happy faces, saying "Jee aayaaN nooN". I could see such mixing first time in my life and I firmly believe that people of Punjab have big hearts to forget and forgive each other's past. As they all are lovers of the great Sufi saints. Here one thing I observed differently that when intellectuals meet each other, their feelings are quite different (I mean mixed feelings) whereas people, specially masses or common men in the streets, just emit one sort of happy and peaceful feelings with their bright eyes i.e. love, open arm and open heart and faces full of great smiles and I observed this in the streets of Qasur though there were quite sufficient police guards too as they were having fear that any small incident can change this all the scenario. Afzal Ahsan Randhawa, a famous Punjabi story writer said one thing very interesting in his speech that “eh chaabi (key) jis kisey ne vee ghumaaee ey te jandrey (locks) Thaah kar ke khul gaey neyN, Allah karey eh chaabi ghumee rahvey te jaNdrey khuley rehN*. The chief minister of Punjab applauded the struggle of Fakhar Zaman and included his name in the governing body of the Punjabi Language Institute which is established with the initial grant of Rs. 50 million (5 crore). He also gave Rs.25,00,000 to Fakhar Zaman for the International Punjabi Congress. Fakhar is the chairman of the International Punjabi Congress. Nowadays a term “U-turn” is very popular in Pakistan. Stage actor Amanullah Khan was saying on the stage that nowadays JaTTaaN deeyaaN panjey dasey balke 20 unglaaN te …….gheyo wich neyN. One another actor said to him please 20 fingers are enough. Ik naheeN maaN* hundee ey JaT taaN veeh veeh gheo wich paaee beThey neyN. Another very good news from Lahore is the start of Punjabi daily KhabraaN by Zia Shahid, a well-known journalist in Pakistan. He took a daring step and said that it was his first duty to serve his mother tongue. The chief minister of Punjab, Ch. Pervez Ilahi inaugurated the newspaper. The Alhamra Hall was packed with the dignitaries of Lahore. The newspaper carries six pages (two of them are coloured) and its price is Rs.3/- which is within the reach of a common man.


Name: Saeed -
E-mail: saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Dear APNA Mitro,

I am just back in Rawalpindi from Lahore after attending two days of the three-days International Punjabi Conference. Today is the last day of the conference and tomorrow delegates will go back to their pavilions. (kal panchhee uD jaawan gey apne apne ahlN*iyaaN wal). MeyN apniyaaN akhiyaaN noon mal mal ke, te biT biT wekhdaa rehyaa ke jo sapna aj toN paNdraaN veeh saal pehlaaN wekhyaa see oh kujh kujh pooraa hundaa nazar aayaa. It was so good to see Punjab united in Flattee Hotel, Alhamra Hall and at the shrine of Bullah Shah (Qasoor) where we all had bhangRaa together on the drum beats. What a nice gesture that the Sikh and the Muslim are dancing Bhangraa together. I also observed by standing in the corner of the tomb of Bullah Shah that how Sikhs and Hindu are touch tomb of Baba Bullah Shah with their hands with profound regards. Sikhs baRey ehtraam de naal othey mathaa tek rahey see. Baba Bullah de darbar te rakhey galey (cash box) wich currency notes vee paa rahey see. Baba Bullah de maqbarey te aqeedat naal khalotey Muslim, Sikh te Hindu Kinney sohN*ey lag rahey see. I also observed that how Sikhs and Muslims (a few Hindus too) were cheering up together and talking with each other with happy faces, saying "Jee aayaaN nooN". I could see such mixing first time in my life and I firmly believe that people of Punjab have big hearts to forget and forgive each other's past. When intellectuals meet each other their feelings are quite different (I mean mixed feelings) whereas people, specially masses or common men in the streets, are just emit one sort of feeling i.e. love, open arm and open heart and faces full of great smiles and I observed this in the streets of Qasur though there was quite sufficient police guards too as they were having fear that any small incident can change this all the scenario. Afzal Ahsan Randhawa, a famous Punjabi story writer said one thing very interesting in his speech that “eh chaabi (key) jis kisey ne vee ghumaaee ey te jandrey (locks) Thaah kar ke khul gaey neyN, Allah karey eh chaabi ghumee rahvey te jaNdrey khuley rehN*. The chief minister of Punjab applauded the struggle of Fakhar Zaman and included his name in the governing body of the Punjabi Language Institute which is established with the initial grant of Rs. 50 million (5 crore). He also gave Rs.25,00,000 to Fakhar Zaman for the International Punjabi Congress. Fakhar is the chairman of the International Punjabi Congress. Nowadays a term “U-turn” is very popular in Pakistan. Stage actor Amanullah Khan was saying on the stage that nowadays JaTTaaN deeyaaN panjey dasey balke 20 unglaaN te …….gheyo wich neyN. One another actor said to him please 20 fingers are enough. Ik naheeN maaN* hundee ey JaT taaN veeh veeh gheo wich paaee beThey neyN.

Another very good news from Lahore is the start of Punjabi daily KhabraaN by Zia Shahid, a well-known journalist in Pakistan. He took this daring step and said that it was his first duty to serve his mother tongue. The chief minister of Punjab, Ch. Pervez Ilahi inaugurated the newspaper. The Alhamra Hall was packed with the dignitaries of Lahore. The newspaper carries six pages (two of them are coloured) and its price is Rs.3/- which is within the reach of a common man.


Name: Saeed -
E-mail: saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Dear APNA Mitro,

I am just back in Rawalpindi from Lahore after attending two days of the three-days International Punjabi Conference. Today is the last day of the conference and tomorrow delegates will go back to their pavilions. (kal panchhee uD jaawan gey apne apne ahlN*iyaaN wal). MeyN apniyaaN akhiyaaN noon mal mal ke, te biT biT wekhdaa rehyaa ke jo sapna aj toN paNdraaN veeh saal pehlaaN wekhyaa see oh kujh kujh pooraa hundaa nazar aayaa. It was so good to see Punjab united in Flattee Hotel, Alhamra Hall and at the shrine of Bullah Shah (Qasoor) where we all had bhangRaa together on the drum beats. What a nice gesture that the Sikh and the Muslim are dancing Bhangraa together. I also observed by standing in the corner of I also observed that how Sikhs and Muslims (a few Hindus too) were cheering up together and talking with each other with happy faces, saying "Jee aayaaN nooN". I could see such mixing first time in my life and I firmly believe that people of Punjab have big hearts to forget and forgive each other's past. When intellectuals meet each other their feelings are quite different (I mean mixed feelings) whereas people, specially masses or common men in the streets, are just emit one sort of feeling i.e. love, open arm and open heart and faces full of great smiles and I observed this in the streets of Qasur though there was quite sufficient police guards too as they were having fear that any small incident can change this all the scenario. Afzal Ahsan Randhawa, a famous Punjabi story writer said one thing very interesting in his speech that “eh chaabi (key) jis kisey ne vee ghumaaee ey te jandrey (locks) Thaah kar ke khul gaey neyN, Allah karey eh chaabi ghumee rahvey te jaNdrey khuley rehN*. The chief minister of Punjab applauded the struggle of Fakhar Zaman and included his name in the governing body of the Punjabi Language Institute which is established with the initial grant of Rs. 50 million (5 crore). He also gave Rs.25,00,000 to Fakhar Zaman for the International Punjabi Congress. Fakhar is the chairman of the International Punjabi Congress. Nowadays a term “U-turn” is very popular in Pakistan. Stage actor Amanullah Khan was saying on the stage that nowadays JaTTaaN deeyaaN panjey dasey balke 20 unglaaN te …….gheyo wich neyN. One another actor said to him please 20 fingers are enough. Ik naheeN maaN* hundee ey JaT taaN veeh veeh gheo wich paaee beThey neyN.

Another very good news from Lahore is the start of Punjabi daily KhabraaN by Zia Shahid, a well-known journalist in Pakistan. He took this daring step and said that it was his first duty to serve his mother tongue. The chief minister of Punjab, Ch. Pervez Ilahi inaugurated the newspaper. The Alhamra Hall was packed with the dignitaries of Lahore. The newspaper carries six pages (two of them are coloured) and its price is Rs.3/- which is within the reach of a common man.


Name: RAVI SHARMA -
E-mail: jaibabedi@sify.com
Location: LUDHIANA, PUNJAB     INDIA
Comments:   SAJID BHAI SAHIB JI PLEASE SEND ME SONGS OF "MEHANDI" FILM. I LIKE THE SONGS OF THIS FILM VERY MUCH. I REMBER TWO SONGS OF THIS FILM. 1.DEKH MAIN MEHANDI LAI KE AAGAY--TITLE SONG. 2.JEHNU LAGDA BHALOUNDA HOSH JAG DA. PLEASE DO IT FOR ME. THANKS


Name: Sajid Chaudhry -
E-mail: sajid@brain.com.pk
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Location: Sahiwal, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Lo jee sajjno aseeN te challay GhraaN nooN EID manoun laee.
SaraY bailiyaaN nooN EID MUBARIK.
JehRay sajjan gharaaN toN door baiThay ne ohna laee ek geet Lata di awaaz vich
Naale lammi te naalay kaali


Name: DullaBhatti -
E-mail: Jagjit_Naushehrvi@yahoo.com
Comments:   Lao jee..Parvaiz Elahi te Amrinder Singh ne dilli di dhotian te islambad dian shalwaawar te khaki panTaN heith laamboo laa dittay ne...aggay aggay wekho ki hunda.


Name: Akhilesh -
E-mail: HiTMaN9497@aol.com
My URL: http://www.lokpunjab.com/
Location: ,      Europe
Comments:   Some news from the World Punjabi Conference:

Pervaiz announces to set up Punjabi institute
http://jang.com.pk/thenews/jan2004-daily/31-01-2004/main/main8.htm

Amrinder says Punjab border should be removed
http://jang.com.pk/thenews/jan2004-daily/31-01-2004/main/main3.htm

Ties will grow, says Indian Punjab CM
http://www.dawn.com/2004/01/31/top9.htm

LAHORE: Punjabi research council suggested
http://www.dawn.com/2004/01/31/local16.htm

CM to raise gurdwara upkeep issue, Gets warm welcome in Pakistan
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040131/main4.htm


Name: Jaz -
E-mail: me_doost@hotmail.com
Location: Huntington, NY     USA
Comments:   Salam + Sat Sri Akaal O my God , ajj main ikk site visit ker raya si tay main aays fourm da link wakhya , main dass naee sakda kin-ni khushi huee aay apni booli tay apnay lokkan nu waykh kay , anyways maynu boot changa lagya boot khushi hoee aay apnay lokaan wich aa kay . Ranglay PUNJAB di ki sift sunawaan jithay RAB wergiaan mawaan terti panj derya di Rani jithay da sherbat werga pani Apni booli Apna maan tay APNA Discussion Forum :)


Name: DullaBhatti -
E-mail: Jagjit_Naushehrvi@yahoo.com
Comments:   Dilli sukh mangdi Lahore sukh mangda
TaaliN Rabba mereya tooN khatra eh jang da

wah je hameshaN injh dian Thandian waavaN aundian rehn te ki mazay ne. There is no doubt that majority of the Punjabis on both sides have started accepting that there can't be peace between two nations until both sides of Punjabis are made to fight with each other. in other words if Punjabis start interacting and realizing the shared heritage, language and culture that will help improve relations between the two countries. That is what APNA friends has been saying for years. now this fact is dawing on more and more people. Sounds great. But there is a potential problem...we assume vested interests in India and Pakistan want peace at the expense of two punjabs getting closer...I have my doubts. Nothing irritates India more than when Punjabis show interest in claiming their shared heritage and culture with Pakistani punjabis..I have seen some non-Punjabi Indians just blow up on any mention of such possibilities. There are similar people in Pakistan also. Let us hope for the best.

Bali: tusi te Eid de chand ho gaye O.

ajj kehRa saaday wehRay de wich aa vaRheya ay. iyoN lagda jiyoN Eeeid da chann chaRheya ay.


Name: Rashid Chaudhry -
E-mail: rashid313@yahoo.com
Location: Islamabad,      Pakistan
Comments:   Here is a good news appeared in Pakistani and Indian media. Pakistanis, Indians talk love at Punjabi meet Lahore: Love and peace were the buzzwords as a 140-member Indian delegation arrived in this Pakistani city to attend a three-day World Punjabi Conference. The delegation, which crossed into Pakistan at Wagah - the only land border open with India - Thursday, is being led by Harnam Das, the education minister of Indian Punjab. Punjab Chief Minister Amarindar Singh will arrive Saturday at the head of a 25-member delegation. It will be his first visit to Pakistan. He has been invited by Parvez Ilahi, the chief minister of Pakistan's Punjab province. Ilahi says if the Punjabis on both sides of the border continued to meet each other, it would lead to bonds of affinity and love between the two countries. Surrendar Wasti, a journalist from India who is part of the visiting delegation, said the two countries had fought three wars and now they should live with each other in peace. The other members of the delegation hoped to experience the beauty and culture of Lahore. Indian and Pakistani leaders had a historic meeting in Islamabad earlier this month. The two bickering neighbours are set to kick off a process of composite dialogue, including on Jammu and Kashmir, next month.


Name: Navdeep -
E-mail: budhu_no_1@hotmail.com
Location: leicester,      UK
Comments:   Bali ji tuahde lai Ah Kuriye ni Jakham tere cee deva, jehar teri jindgi da pee lava. Kandiya de naal phul v ne hovnde, sare biba yaar es tara de nahi hovnde. maniya k dil tera kise ne tor dita, par ajja dekh sade sab naal jor dita. Rakhna eh tenu bana k asi rani ah, tu bhanve maan ja na maan par ajj tu sadi patrani eh. Bali ji maff karna bare dinna bad mille ah. tuhda sab da dhanvad Budhu


Name: Bali K. Deol -
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Sardarz, Sajid, Kahlon Ji, towanu saariyaaN nu SSA.

Ethe Kahlon Ji raunak dee lor e, shaid enjh hee chirr pavE.

Sardarz, Balkar Sidhu has a few albums out, although I don't think he can ever compare to Bindrakhia. His best album was probably the one prior to 'Laung TaveetriaaN' and is called 'Do GallaN', the title song goes 'do gallaN kariye, behjaa, saadi sunn, apni kehjaa', hor Punjaban, Dholna, and a duet with him and Jaspinder Narula are also good. Aside from that his 'Charkha'album is quite good, and he is famous for the songs 'Majhe diye Majhe diye Mombatiye' & 'Tu meri Khand Mishri'. An infamous album with an infamous title is 'Aaja Ganne ChupiyE'. :-) Now look at that face, udaas lagdi a meiN? Sachi?

Sajid, tusi taan dil diyan jaan jande o, kee e sher MTM ji honi mere le likh gaye, te meiN es bikhre hoye raaste te turan nu majboor hogayi.

Chalo jaande jaande towade saariyaaN le kuj ethe likh jayiye...

kise nu dil dene vich kee rakhya e.
kise nu pyaar karne vich jee kee rakhiya e.
ohee ik adaat jahi hogayi hai udaas rehane dee...
varna udass rehne vich vee, jee kee rakhiya e.....,
***********************************************
KandiaaN te chalne da shaunk jiha hogaya
Aag vich jalne da shauk jiha hogaya
kihne zakhm rehgaye baaki ve sajna
Mainu taan zakham sehne da shauk jiha hogaya


Name: P S Kahlon -
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Comments:   Bali Jee:

Jee AyaN nooN. BaRa chir tusiN sannoN bhulla ditta si. BaRi khusi hoee ki tusiN yaad kita Je. Kujh raunak lagg gai ae tuhade auan naal.


Name: Sajid Chaudhry -
E-mail: sajid@brain.com.pk
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Location: Sahiwal, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Ek wari MTM jee ne Bali laee aik choti jahi nazam post keeti si. Aj fair ohna day lafz Bali jee nooN yaad karoun laee
Sassi rayt thhalaaN wich saR gayee
Heer siayalaaN hathouN mar gayee
Wich chanaaN day dubb gayee Sohni
SehbaaN annakh di sooli chaR gayee

YaaN tou onhaaN wagouN jee lay
YaaN sir sutt kay zahr touN pee lay
YaaN phair uTth kay datt jaa kuRiay
Sir chuk jind marzee nall jee lay
Rabb Khush rakhay tuhanooN...


Name: Sardarz -
E-mail: sardarz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Bali,
Ki gal ajj UdaaS lagdae O...
I have a music related question who better to ask tah you..
I just happened to listen to a song by Balkar Sidhu (Laung Taviteriaan)he seems to be quite similar in style to Bindrakhiya.
What albums of his would you reccomend to buy..
Regards.


Name: Bali K. Deol -
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Kiven a Ji? Mein koi post te vaise karni nahi see, nahi jiada kuj kehnaa, bas mann karda to 'old gang' nu salaam kar dayiye! Hope everyone is well, where are you all lurking, I have a distinct feeling you're all lurking around and just reading like me. Chalo gallan karaaNge jad gallan da Saawan aaya te!


Name: Akhilesh -
E-mail: HiTMaN9497@aol.com
My URL: http://www.lokpunjab.com/
Location: ,      Europe
Comments:   Sat Sri Akaal

I remember awhile back we had a little discussion on preserving old and historical shrines, mausoleums, places of worship etc which had fallen into neglect in Punjab due to the partition. Well, here is some good news on that topic:

Restoration work of Hindu shrine in progress
http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/jan2004-daily/28-01-2004/metro/l1.htm

LAHORE: The restoration work of famous Hindu shrine Ketas, located between Kallar Kahar and Choa Saidan Shah, is in progress and would be restored in its original shape in different phases.

Faisal Ali, an official of Archaeology Department supervising the restoration work at the two-and-a-half-century-old shrine, told a group of journalists during their visit to the site on Tuesday that the first phase would cost Rs 8 million which would be completed in a couple of months. Ketas is an important Hindu pilgrim centre where thousands of Hindus used to flock every year to bathe.

Ketas means "weeping eye" and it is a bunch of deserted temples, shrines, bath houses and ruined fort surrounding a pool, sacred to Hindu god Shiva. The legend says, when Shiva wept over his wife’s death the tears formed the pool. The pool flow is round the year and residents of neighbouring town of Choa Saidan Shah are using it for drinking purpose. The official said that 300 Hindu pilgrims are expected to arrive at Ketas in February next as they have sent their requests to perform their religious rituals at the shrine. The three-day annual rituals of Hindus begin at Ketas on February 18, he added.


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   As a question of curiosity
Are there other western born Punjabi writers? And has Punjabi writing embraced high technology and Science Fiction yet?
Rupe


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   Saeed Ji,
I think your 3rd biggest news internationally is the most important one. Bridges really nee to be built.
Rupe


Name: Akhilesh -
E-mail: HiTMaN9497@aol.com
My URL: http://www.lokpunjab.com/
Location: ,      Europe
Comments:   Saeed Ji that is very good news indeed.

Speaking of Punjabi newspapers from West Punjab, do you have any idea what happened to the Daily Bhulekha?


Name: Saeed -
E-mail: saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Dear APNA Mitro, I have three wonderful news for you.

1. Punjabi newspaper "KhabaraaN" will start from Lahore and Islamabad on 31st January, 2004. Zia Shahid (publisher and editor of Urdu Newspaper KhabraiN) will start publishing Punjabi newspaper. Its price will be Rs.3/- It is a very good news for the students of Punjabi language who have done master degrees in Punjabi but don't find jobs. It is a very good news for the prose writers. Jee, Paa Dr. Manzur Ejaz jee, now you can start writing column in the Punjabi newspaper. Dr. Zaki Jee, Dr. Shahid Jee apniyaaN qalmaaN nooN tikhaa kar lao. Rammah Jee, these are very good news.

Second big news is the International Punjabi Conference in Lahore and its first session will be presided by the Punjab's Chief Minister Ch. Pervaiz Ilahi.

The third biggest news is the announcement of 1000 scholarships for Pakistani deserving students by Madan Jeet Singh Jee. 300US $ will be given to 1000 Pakistani students every year. It is the biggest scholarship scheme ever in Pakistan. So it will create love between Sikhs and Muslims. Congratulations to all those friends who are promoting peace and harmony in this region. Saeed


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
Location: London,      UK
Comments:   I thank you for your help anyway Prem Ji
At least you have not been silent in trying to help a beginner on his path of exploring the possibilities of Punjabi Language
Rupe


Name: Sajid Chaudhry -
E-mail: sajid@brain.com.pk
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Location: Sahiwal, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   A detailed and interesting Article on SHIV.
Shiv Kumar Batalvi


Name: P S Kahlon -
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Comments:   Rupe:

For possible publication, you need advice from some literary person who is more informed on this subject. I am a Scientist by training and have very little understanding about what is publishable.However I had Punjabi through my H/S and I can be helpful in proofing your writing. Venue of your stories was a village in Doaba and it is perfectly acceptable to use that dialect (mey be even prefered to use it).Therfore, I was assuming that conversation was taking place between people in a Doaba village. Eventhough there is not much difference these days between Majha, Doaba and Malwa dialects compare to 50 years ago. I was reading "MaRhi Da Deeva" that has such a heavy Malwa rural dialogues,that it will not make an easy reading for people from West Punjab. Compare to 50 years ago the language in East Punjab is fairly uniform. However, advice on these things can be useful from some one who is a good writer. You mentioned the spoken language of diaspora,fortunately Punjabi written in Gurmukhi script can be written just like you speak because of all the letters , half lettrs and vowels that are available to write a word in Punjabi). As I will say to an American that in my language you don't need to say, "how do you spell it" because if you can say it accurately you can write it in that sound. Keep up the good work, Best wishes


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
Location: London,      Uk
Comments:   Shahid Ji ,
I agree with you entirely. That is why I have been trying to push the words I have gathered or invented. Even if one of these words are accepted, if 1 thousand Punjabi like me invented 100 new technogiocal words, and only one per person is accepted media thus society, within 1 year Technogy will no longer be a problem
Rupe


Name: Rupe -
E-mail: rdhillon@cmedltd.com
Location: London,      Uk
Comments:   Dear Prem Ji ( Kahlon) Thanks for checking my first 2 chapters of Khushjeevan. I will implement corrections. I just hope that there is a market out there for begiiners in Punjabi like myself who have a western background and style of writing
regards
Rupe


Name: Shahid -
E-mail: mshahid47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Thanks to Saeed saheb for identifying the link for an excellent article by Dr. Sabiha Mansoor. I very much enjoyed reading it.
It is an important article indeed. It presents results from a survey providing facts on the ground as those exist today. While the survey clearly shows major reasons why the regional languages are not encouraged (and interestingly those are the same reasons that have been discussed at great length on and off at this very forum), it no where supports one or the other regional language - being a survey-based write-up, it should not, but actually report the findings, which was done so impressively. A couple of sample quotes from the article.

Those surveyed thought regional languages to be 'deficient' in the sense that they were not suited to science and technology’.
The attitude toward acquiring such a language seemed to vary from the conflicting or ambivalent to downright negative. Students, parents, and teachers generally did not seem to approve of their mother tongue being used as medium of instruction and it was considered economically unimportant to do so. Almost no student recommended that study of a regional language be made compulsory and very few said that it be made a medium of instruction (and even who did say that said it should be restricted only to primary classes).
The most lucrative jobs in Pakistan require proficiency in English and besides the language is seen as being quite useful for higher education since most teaching materials and literature are readily available in it.


Well, if Panjabis want to see Panjabi develop into a credible and real medium of instruction at all levels, then it is their duty to bridge this ‘incredibility-gap’ by creating a set of credible Panjabi text material well suited for the job and not ask “who will pay for that?”


Name: asaba owerri -
E-mail: homeboy_owerri_asaba@aba.us
My URL: http://www.hommynews.us
Location: aba, lagos     USA
Comments:   guys it looks really nice and good. keep it up.


Name: Akhilesh -
E-mail: HiTMaN9497@aol.com
My URL: http://www.lokpunjab.com/
Location: ,      Europe
Comments:  

Dear P S Kahlon Ji - Silly me, i didnt check before hand to see whether or not there was an email or mail address for the author of that article.

Saeed Ji, do you have a contact address for her?

Ps, is Safir Rammah Ji still in Punjab? (India/Pak) i know he was there last month (in Ludhiana).

Things are a bit quiet lately. Would be nice to hear from him.


Name: suman -
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   Safir. Could you em or call me? suman


Name: P S Kahlon -
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Comments:   Sorry for the spelling mistake. The word is body and not boy.


Name: P S Kahlon -
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Comments:   Akhilesh:

What address did you use to write to Dr. Sabiha Mansoor? If any boy else knows how to respond to Dr. Manssor, please send me e-mail at the address above. Thank you Saeed Paa Jee for your service for the cause of our language/culture.


Name: Akhilesh -
E-mail: HiTMaN9497@aol.com
My URL: http://www.lokpunjab.com/
Location: ,      Europe
Comments:   Saeed Ji, thanks for posting that. I will write a thank you to her now.


Name: Saeed -
E-mail: saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location: Rawalpindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   The second article was in the newspaper. They (Dawn guys) could not give it in their site. This article is about Syed Afzal Haider, a great lover of Waris Shah. It is just in the printed form in today's Dawn. Saeed


Name: Akhilesh -
E-mail: HiTMaN9497@aol.com
My URL: http://www.lokpunjab.com/
Location: ,      Europe
Comments:   Sat Sri Akaal

Ok, looks like things are looking back up again:

Amarinder’s visit to Pak cleared
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040124/main6.htm

Pak to host Punjabi Lok Boli Mela
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040125/punjab1.htm#14

Some other news:

Economic reasons led to ’47 killings: poet
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040123/punjab1.htm#13


Name: Saeed -
E-mail: saeedfaranipk@yahoo.com
Location: Pindi, Punjab     Pakistan
Comments:   Dear APNA Mitro,

Please go through these two articles published in today's Dawn, Karachi. I will request to Safir Paa jee to give them place in the front page please. I will also request other friends to read these articles and try to write letters in different English newspapers. Look how nicely Dr. Sabiha Mansoor has written in favour of Punjabi language. She is associate professor and head of Agha Khan University,s Centre of English Language, Karachi. I am sending her my four books on great sufis as gift so you can also write her letter of appreciation. See who people are working for the promotion of Punjabi. Dr. Tariq Rehman, Dr. Hassan Dani and probably Dr. Sabiha Mansoor are non-Punjabis but they feel great pain of the language. Safir Rammah Jee, you were planning to write a booklet on the topic of Importance of Punjabi. This article can help you a lot. See the answer of the question that why Punjabis hate their mother language and made this language as prohibited tree (shajar-e-mamnooaa) for their kids? she gave one very reasonable answer of this question.

She writes: "This means that even in Punjab the language is not given any official status or role by the government. Though the language has a rich poetry and literature, little development has taken place as far as educational materials are concerned. Punjabi is therefore normally identified by those who speak it as the language of the illiterate and the poor - especially those who live in the rural areas. Because it is not used, or even needed, in becoming literate, Punjabi's status is greatly reduced. Hence, the elite is seen to be moving away from Punjabi, towards Urdu and English, which are both seen as languages of a future urbanized society. English is particularly seen as being modern and progressive, and attracts Punjabi speakers, including those from rural backgrounds who might have moved into urban areas recently, thereby speeding up the process of language shift. Results of this study also make clear the attitudes of parents and teachers." Dr. Zaki Jee, Dr. Manzur Ejaz Jee, Dullah Bhatti Jee, Prem Singh KahlooN jee, Suman Jee and other readers of apnaorg.com please write her letter of appreciation or send her thank you card at her university address. Do this little job for your dying mother language. It needs your support please otherwise the enemies of this language are very powerful and want to kill it as soon as possible. Here is the link to read the complete artile:

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/education/education.htm

Rammah Jee, please also go through this link which is on the books of Sindhi language. http://www.dawn.com/weekly/books/books7.htm


Name: Navdeep -
E-mail: budhu_no_1@hotmail.com
Location: Leicester,      UK
Comments:   sajjid ji tuhade naam http://www.geocities.com/brar_punjabi/agillpaigaam.htm Budhu


Name: Akhilesh -
E-mail: HiTMaN9497@aol.com
My URL: http://www.panjabradio.co.uk/
Location: ,      Europe
Comments:   Sat Sri Akaal

I think the following is quite a blow to the Punjabi conference which is being held in Lahore on the 29th of this month.

Upset, Amarinder calls off Pak visit
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040121/punjab1.htm#2

Indian Punjab CM cancels Lahore visit
http://www.dawn.com/2004/01/22/top10.htm

But on the brighter side...

Allow me to invite Pak Punjab CM: Amarinder
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040122/punjab1.htm#6


Name: Javed Zaki -
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Location: East Lansing, Mi     USA
Comments:   Sajno. Ik neviN ghazal haazar e.

Chhat kanyaaN kin-min wassan
JeviN khoh te kuRyaaN hassan

Teri malmal chunni uDD di
JeviN ambreeN badliaaN nassan

TuN poh raat di chaanani
Teri rashmaaN de meenh wassan

Terey naen nisheele baaNware
Saade dil da chayn peye khaasan

Terey chandan tann de bolle
Terey ghar da raah peye dassan

Javed Zaki







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