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Name: DullaBhatti - July 17, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Sameer, that write-up was by a dear friend of mine, jehRa kade kade baRhian falsafaana gallaN karn lag jaanda ay(ikko peg naal ee:-)). He is actually quite young to have any attachment to communist movement back home...ohday jamman toN pehlaN pehlaN inqulab aa ke leh vigiya si:)...But he has a good point in his post.

Zakki sahib, dictionary da writer kaafi khushdil banda lagda ay.....eh kitay Maula Bakhash Kushta Ambarsari te nai?

- Janab Dullah Bhatti Nausheharvi Wahgabaardarvi Ambarsaria:-)[too many arvis?]


Name: Sameer - July 17, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   javed Zaki: That was an eye-opener as well as entertaining. I feel like calling myself J B Sameer Rooh Kich Lyallpuria al Islamabadia wal Amreekee just for today...........hehehe

Thanks Mahmud Fahim for interesting piece of information. Somehow I had this feeling that Maulvi Abdul Haque was actually a Bengali or perhaps settled there.

DullaBhatti: This looks quite a bit like what I wrote, "In Defense of the Left"; do you remember that one? I assure you this piece is not written by me and, you know, my past in Pakistan was Jammatia and Islami Jamiaat-e-Tulbaa (or Tabla) though now buried in 10 feet thick walled lead container underground alongwith nuclear waste. Alas! What a waste of early formative years.

Bali: I listened to your show today. What a great selection of songs by Harminder Singh. These are my kind of songs and I wish you success with AkhaaRa stuff.


Name: DullaBhatti - July 17, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   An interesting piece a fellow surfer.----->
---------------------------------------------

After much ponderation, I have decided to revert back faithfully to Communism for the 'ideological' salvation of the mankind. Communism must be revived for the betterness of the world in present circumstances. And we cannot rely on Chinese for it. They are way too laid back and chilled out. Damn, that dope must have been really good!

Presently, world is divided among two clear ideological factions. Religious Militancy and Western Democracy. After taking a brief and shallow look at them, I declare them both to be utterly boring, dull, unspirited, and dangerous. Communism, this time around, should work as a catalytic agent to divert focus and attention of these two adversaries from each other just so that they won't collide and end up destroying the whole humanity. Communists shall continue to tell the religious militants that there existeth no God, Allah, or Bhagwan to piss them off so that they won't get too pissed on the West. They shall continue to tell Western democracies that McDonald's is a bad idea and dollar menu sucks to irritate them beyond tolerence so that they won't become too irritable themselves. It's a dirty job but somebody got to do it, and the Communists are good at coming up with stuff that's distracting, meaningless, but yet effective.

But that's not the only reason. There are others too. When Communists reigned the world, they introduced some really cool terminology. But look at what we've got now. Militant, Freedom of speech, Democracy, Extremist, Terrorism, Jihad, Infitada etc. are not as cool as Bourgeois, Comrade, Proletariat, Menifesto, Revolution, Bolsheviks etc. What's wrong with people's sense of phoneticism and figurative construct? Even the terms or movements that were reactionary to Communism in a way or the other were cool. Case in point is Hippie or Hippie-ism combined with Marijuana/Weed and Free Sex. Credit goes to Communism as much as it goes to anything that happened during 60's and 70's. That was our world mind you. And we Surkhays are as keen on dividing it up into North/South or East/West as anybody esle.

Next, Communist poetry and literature produced some great works of social intellect, spirit, and creativity. There was a great sense of Romanticism involved when poets or writers went to prisons for saying things that were not allowed or liked. Imagine saying "peeta hooN lekin thori see peeta hooN" to bunch of mullahs and then taking the heat for it. No hypocricy, no dishonesty - bol kay lab azad heiN teray. But now people practice butchery or bomb blow-ups instead or doing something constructive with their vocal cords. Not romantic at all. The closest these guys can come up is the recital of Quranic Aayas that they don't really know what they mean and is completely in a foreign language. Come on, that's pretty shallow. Can't you come up with something on your own? You have to rely on your God for everything? Do your own poetry for once, dammit!

We fought capatilist for solid reasons. We wanted roti, kapra, aur makan for the poor. They wanted more roti, kapra, aur makan for the rich. What do militants want? We are as confused about them as they are about themselves.

Absence of Communism from the ideological scene has also caused more lax on world leaders. There was a time when leaders would fight over nuclear weapons, moon, Cuba, submarines tespasses, and world territories. Now they sit in their offices and defend themselves over the proper defintion of the word 'Sex'. I mean, who cares? Just do it! This also shows that either they are not getting enough or they are getting way too much, and besides, even if cigars are being used, Cuba is still not involved. That's shameful.

These Westerns and Militants need to be taught proper ettiquetes of fighting, revolting, and confiscating. Damn immatures.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 17, 2002
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Just to share the information: The father of Maulvi Abdul Haq (Baba-e-Urdu)was migrated to U.P from Ferozepur Punjab. On the otherhand Syed Akhtar Hussain Shah, Editor of Leharan, is a Pushtoon(Pathan).


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 17, 2002
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Just to share the information: The father of Maulvi Abdul Haq (Baba-e-Urdu)was migrated to U.P from Ferozepur Punjab. On the otherhand Syed Akhtar Hussain Shah, Editor of Leharan, is a Pushtoon(Pathan).


Name: Javed zaki - July 17, 2002
E-mail: Zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   a.n.a! MeiN vi ik bohut poraani Punjabi di dictionary (AkharaaN di PaNd) vekhi, JeRhi Ustad Moala Deve Rooh Khich Amritsariya, saakan androon Bhaati Gate, gali tejoo kun-tutta dodhi, makaan # 418 + 2 di tartib ditti e te ohde publisher da address e:

Ralli pehlwaan moajaaN lutt, akhaaRa koadoo pehlwaan bijli, nizd gaNda naala mochi Gate, Lahore.

1) Najib-ul-tarfain Jut: Jidhe NaankiaaN te DaadkiaaN tarfooN ghat tooN ghat kise ik nazdiki rishte-daar da naaN 'Najib' hove te oh vaahi-biji karda hove. Ohde kool ghat tooN ghat 5 marle zamin, ik dhagga, ik mujh (ya gaaN) zaroor hoon. Palle bhaaNviN kujh na hove par aakaR har aNg vichooN raalaaN vaangar digdi phhire.

2). Asli Jut:"Bhullar, Maan te Heeir apne aap nooN asli juttaaN diaan zaataaN dasde neiN. EhnaaN tinnaaN qabiliaaN moojab baaqi sabh jut qabile modhooN de jut nehiN, Rajpooti asle de jut neiN. EhnaaN de motabiq eh tinnaaN qoamaaN bohat poraane vailiaaN tooN Baari doaab vich vasdiaaN piaaN neiN. Poraane jugg vich ehnaaN noon Ghuttar, ghoat yaaN Gutt (sinsakarat Yutt) kehNde san te eho lafz picchooN Jut vich badal giaa." (Ref: MaaN Boli, Lahore. August 1992).


Name: Sameer - July 17, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   MTM yaar, sorry I forgot to thank you for writing that poem. That was quite good, along the same lines I was thinking. Once again thanks.

ana: You sound Pakistani because Najibul Turfain is arabic word, literally meaning "high class/ pure from both side". Najibul Turfain Jatt means a person claiming to have both parents belonging to pure/ upper caste/ respected etc Jatts. This term is mostly used by Syeds though claiming that both parents, 4 grandparenst, 8 great grandparenst, 16......... are all coming from pure bloodline of Muhammad. Another term they use with similar meaning is "Ashraaf", meaning superior/ noble. I believe word Musharraf also means similar since he is a Syed.

I guess I can also call myself, with much more high degree of confidence than Syeds or Jatts, that I am a Najeebul Turfain Homo Sapien Sapiens. Last time some chimp messing up my pure bloodline must have been more than a million years ago.


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 17, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Dr. Zaki,

I think, Pakistan hasn't totally lagged behind in establishing gender equality on socio-economic and political fronts as such. Women can be found pursuing careers alongside men in practically every sphere of life. Actually, employers prefer hiring women due to their "better workers" image. Twice elected Benazir to the post of top executive of Pakistan signifies gender equality on the political front. Is that enough? Perhaps not, and indeed a lot needs to be done in providing opportunities and a sexual harassment-free work environment for those women who want to or must work. But, it's not a total loss either. Wouldn’t you agree?

I would agree that poverty has increased, one of the few miracles our government can genuinely claim to have to achieved without any hoodwinking. Disproportional defense spending has an undeniable role in that. However, it's massive corruption and down right ineptness and inefficiencies that primarily contributed towards squandering of resources and piling of debt. Lack of good governance and policy direction is stifling Pakistan of a vibrant economy despite the abundance of entrepreneurial spirit and human resources.

On a side note, without “stigmatizing” anyone, I would argue that incidents like gang rape of Mukhataran Bibi that grab international media attention enrage ex-patriots community living hyphenated identities primarily due to the reason that they have a direct bearing on its image. Otherwise, I wouldn’t be surprised if we were oblivious to this monstrosity as well just as we are to countless others like majority of the folks at ground zero, unfortunately!

Regards


Name: ana - July 17, 2002
E-mail: ana@hotmail.com
Comments:   Sameer ji, What is 'Najibul Turfain jatt'? I know ' jatt 'but not this category. Can you please enlighten? Thanks in anticipation.


Name: Sameer - July 16, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   I do not know much about Sikhism but let me assume that their values system was better than the one prevailing during 16th century Punjab just as Islamic values system was better than the one prevailing in 7th century Arabia. It is rather easy to defend these value systems based on belief as well as prevailing environments at those times. Since my knowledge of Sikhism is yet very limited, I can defend Islamic values system in this way. Muhammad was preaching, teaching and ruling in a very harsh environment. Here was a small community and nation, Medina, surrounded by much larger, more numerous more powerful and very tribal where drinking water from another tribes well could start a war or genocide. He had absolutely no choice in that environment except to have a very disciplined, absolute dedication, deeply believing and practicing, and total submission to survive the critical early phases. Had he been liberal, compromising, preaching just peace and love, he would have been finished off in a matter of months if not days, either from within Medina or from outside. He used all the survival tactics and innovative ones too and succeeded against all odds in creating a sustainable critical mass. You may choose any event, any Islamic law or any injunction and measure it in this background, it will make perfect sense.

Now if they worked so good then why can’t be people nostalgic about recreating similar discipline, as good Muslims or good Sikhs with respect to Sikh history? Here I would like to start differentiating from Bali and Prof. Kahlon. You must clearly understand the foundations or paradigm of modern world. It is not based on good moral or ethical values according to Sikhism, Islam, Hinduism, Christianity; you name it. The principles, on which the modern world is standing, progressing, developing and sustaining, are 180 degrees contrary to religious values systems. The basis of most of the functions in modern world are at best be considered lying, cheating, fabrication, exploitation, exaggeration, fooling, sinning etc according to the religious value systems. The diplomacy, negotiations, international relations, politics, domestic policies in running a country, the propaganda, exaggeration, fabrication, advertisement, marketing and publicity in business, the motion pictures, the birth control pills in technology or selling Coca-cola with respect to ethics.

Diplomacy involves lying, fabricating, exaggerating and so on and no religious morals and ethics can support it. No religion supports dishonesty and fraudulent exaggerated claims, but what is marketing about? All religions support honesty and speaking truth as is. Whole industry related to motion picture is based on fooling the brain through eyes that pictures are actually moving. They are just still pictures passing faster than the eye can see them separately. Birth control pills are based also on the principle of fooling brain into believing that the woman is already pregnant and thereby fooling brain into releasing certain hormones that make sure that sperms do not get near to egg. I can give you so many examples from science and technology because science is my background. Would Jesus, Mohammad or Nanak have approved if asked to allow fooling brain and eyes? I do not think so. What about Coca-Cola? It is just sugar, water, color, caffeine and oils emulsified in water. Yet it is 150 billion dollars industry worldwide with the help of marketing, sales, advertisements and so on. Cocla-Coal would not be there at all according to moral and ethics of religions. They would not support exploitation of sex through female models in Coke commercials. The sale will plunge and less advertisement revenues for TV networks and sports etc. The fact is that if our prayers of nostalgia for more good Sikhs and more good Muslims are answered, the world will turn upside down. With the paradigm of developed and developing nations shattered, every next meal on the table of good Sikhs and good Muslims will contain less and less bread and meat. The world economic system, scientific and technical innovations, banking system, and current world order will collapse under the weight of good values. Fooling is the name of the game in this world right now.

The question immediately comes to mind: Is lying better than speaking truth, is dishonesty better than honesty? Actually the answer is not so simple as it appears. We live in make belief world that is practical. The belief is spiritual and provides personal satisfaction. No one can deny the goodness of good moral and ethical values. The good values are highly desirable in personal relationships with family, friend, and associates and with oneself. Yet the real world is not so simple. No matter what I think of moving pictures or sex exploitation-based commercialism adding to the price of coke, I do buy and drink coke and watch movies. I would love to see the culprits of gang rape hanged, in my heart, but I am against death penalty in general. Is it split personality or hypocrisy? I do not think so. I judge everything according to the conditions in make belief world but my conscience is clear that I am not a bad person. I have used tricks many times during my past graduate and post-doctoral research in sciences but we call them novel approaches and actually appreciated.

What then is the answer? The answer in terms of game theory would be to think in terms of win-win situation. The win-win situation for the promotion of Punjabyat should not include defeating any other culture. The real life should not be looked as war or a sporting event where one side has to lose for other to win. Separate the make belief (real and practical) from the belief (spiritual and for living in peace with the self). The good Muslims and good Sikhs belong to the later category. The human right issues and women’s’ rights are practical things. If religions say good things about it; fine, but the solutions must not be filtered through the good moral and ethics of good religions.

Bali, don’t be nostalgic and sweat over not having enough good Sikhs; a bad Muslim or a bad Sikh might be more helpful in promoting gender equality. I bet you will repent for asking too many good Sikhs and good Muslims when your livelihood will be looked upon as inferior quality than the one reading the same book over and over and over and over. Do you understand how many people would have been starved to death by now if it was not genetic engineering (playing God or interfering in God’s own choice of genetic pool) of wheat and rice seeds? The make belief world is the one you will be living rest of your life. Fight the fight of women’s rights according to the make belief/ real world principles. Begging in the name of Holy Scripture by MukhtaraN Bibi’s father could not save her from being gangraped in a small local setting and you are wishing to change the women’s world by it? Wah nee Bali, tu sada (simple) te tera dil sada (simple), tainuN aiveN raqeeb (opponent) qurah (???) paya. HuN terey naal kee muqabla karna?


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 16, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Dr. Zaki,

The easterners, conservatives and moderates alike do criticise appearances of western women in general. I am not aware of conservatives using filthy language in the media though. Anyway, my point had nothing to do with appearances. Women can wear what they want. I just won't look if it bothers me that much. My concern was women especially mothers being deprived of their nurturing role due to pressures of juggling full-time job and family. This is stifling them of quality of life and many are having to choose between a career and "stay-home" mom. For some the choice is easy while for others not so easy depending upon financial circumstances and more importantly on personal priorities.

In the context of Pakistan, I agree with increasing the participation of women in decision making on all fronts - family and national. In middle class educated families, women do play a significant role in decision making and are amply empowered. They might not be at the point of burning their bras just as yet but are surely far from being "subjugated" and "slave". This whole issue of gender inequality is blown out of proportion. However, the problem does exist at the lower level of society due to illiteracy and poverty. I don't how are we going to get rid of that considering the lack of compassion among the ruling elite.

Rest latter (preferrably through email), I am really exhausted and out of energy for some strange reason!

Regards


Name: Javed Zaki - July 16, 2002
E-mail: Zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Prem Ji, Bagga Ji and Bali Ji! I have read a lot of original writing by Guru Sahibaan, particularly Guru Nanak Ji. They have, without a friction of doubt, preached and practiced a society without caste and gender (and even religious) stratification. Baba Guru Nanak Ji's one of two very dearest disciples (Mardana) was a low caste (miraasi) person of Muslim background.
When Guru Gobind Singh Ji invited all his followers for baptism ceremony (Amrit Chhakhna) in 1699, he requested Mata Jito Ji Or Mata Sahib Kaur Ji to add 'Pasasha' to water. Then five people of various castes (some belong to lowest castes, but all were men) were baptized who are called 'Punj Piyaare'. Then, Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself drank from the same cup. But I am not sure whether Mata Jito Ji OR Mata Sahib Kuar Ji was baptized in the same manner.
Although, Guru Amar Das Ji trained many women as missionaries to spread the worlds of Gurus (and many of them were 'MasnaNd kaar') but we see all gurus including Panj Piyaare were men. Another issue, which is not clear to me, is "What is the principal of inheritance distribution in Sikhism?" I know many Sikh scholars do suggest that as Guru Granth Sahib establishes a gender-neutral society, so property/inheritance has to be equally distributed among the members of the family. But this explanation is ‘by implication’.

IMRAN! I do not know what do you mean by "emancipation' of women"? To me, it is to recognize, pursue and establish socio-economic and political gender equality. The concept of 'women's emancipation has intentionally been vulgarized by the Conservative Media in Muslim world (particularly, in Pakistan). They use filthy language and do not hesitate to demean them by calling 'prostitutes' etc; I am a witness to that. As a matter of fact, for a majority of Pakistani households, it has become a necessity (not a choice) for both spouses to be economically active to live a reasonable life. The poverty in Pakistan has increased during the last 15 years. It has increased from approximately 28 percent to 38 percent. With family size remaining at higher level (the Total Fertility Rate between 5-6) they have no option but to work for to increase their meager family economic resources. The payment of debt service (mainly foreign) and military expenditure almost eat up 90 percent of its national annual revenues. This is a purely economic argument in regard of women's participation in labor market. However, the realization to actualize their personal potentials and talents is the real motive (although more relevant in the case of educated women).
As for the issue of personal 'faith' is concerned I have no quarrel with that, but as long as it remains to the personal/private level. It only becomes a problem when someone seeks to make it a standard to stigmatize others and wants it to be imposed as an ideology of a society.


Name: Bali K Deol - July 16, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Hi Bagga, lets take this discussion to email, as its probably a little off topic if we really delve into it. Yes I understand your point that each area had its own interpretation, the same could be said for Islam and Hinduism. I have often heard that all 3 faiths crossed over into each other in many ways. This debate is a little similar to the one where many men argue that since no woman came forward in the punj piaare, that they cannot represent in the panj piaare today either. Anyways, Prem ji, I know you would care to add to this...but perhaps we should take it to email now.


Name: bagga - July 16, 2002
E-mail: aaa@aol.com
Comments:   Bali im sure a women did take amrit before, but you have to realize that sikhi was not as homoegenous as it is today. Diffrent areas and people had their own interpretations. Who knows whether banning of amrit for women was a prevalent idea, but it had to have some following for it to exist in hazoor sahib.


Name: Bali K Deol - July 16, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Interesting Bagga! Although I've never come across anything like this before. I'll check it out a little more in depth, and see if I can find evidence that the first women took Amrit long before. That info about at Sachkhand Shri Hazoor Sahib women can still not take amrit boggles my mind, that I have to check out. I went there for 2 weeks when I was 13 and til today it remains one of the most beautiful places in the world to me. If it all checks out, then some of these so-called leaders need to read the scriptures they follow more closely and stop being so damn selective.


Name: bagga - July 16, 2002
E-mail: aaa@aol.com
Comments:   Bali, "Its common knowledge that women have every right equal to that of a male in the SRI GGS" but i dont think at our history reflects that what so ever. Take a look at this link, its a little shocking. They claim that "Women 'WERE' not allowed to take Amrit until it was first modified in 1863 by Guru Ram Singh of Namdhari Sikhs". http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion.nsf/All+by+Date/19A742EA88F3DA4487256B9E0002246D?OpenDocument


Name: Bali K Deol - July 15, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Prem ji, I am with you 100% on this one. Its common knowledge that women have every right equal to that of a male in the SRI GGS, our history is full of examples of how women were present in every aspect of life, spiritual, educational, and even during war, not to simply cook meals for the warriors. Mai Bhago served as a bodyguard to Guru Gobind Singh if I my memory serves me correctly. Quite right, that there are few Sikhs that exist today, very very few.


Name: P S kahlon - July 15, 2002
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Comments:   Javed Saab:I am in agreement with your post with minor disagreement."Almost all religions show a common discriminatory approach to gender Issue". I will state like this;" People of almost all religions show a common discriminatory approach to gender issues" Piare dost Gustakhi muaff. As you have said and I have poited out earlier also that when you have power over somebody whether it is through religious, social , Political reasons, it is hard to give it up. Sikh scripture very clearly in simple Punjabi gives equality to both sexes as well as to all castes. It is Sikh people who pratice discrimination. Iedicussion with my Sikh brothers I have often Said that there are no Sikhs these days. There is always a Prefix with the word Sikh these days.It is a culture or social structure that is used by some who practice power over others. When you call some body a Pagan, in my vocabulary it implies one's superiority over others. Rabb Rakha and Kudos to those who will fight for equalit for all.


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - July 15, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   Samir Ji: tuhadi post paR kay jee kitaa kay do char misray maiN wee jaR dayaaN ....zaroori nai kay tuhanouN pasand aaown lakin thheek tusi apayee kar laynaa .. ay damagh wich aywayeeN aa gay sun.........

Des punj daryawaaN day wagday mitthRay paaniaN da
Des suchayaN siddayaN wassiaN mitraaN haaniaN da
Des pyar dee bolee da geetaaN da ishq kahaaniaN da
Des sufiaN pyariaN sohnyaaN dil dayaaN jaaniaN da

Des dudh da lassiaN chattiaN naal madhaaniaN da
Des athhray gabhroo sheraaN da alhaR jawaniaN da
Des saarayaN mosamaaN pyarayaaN rutta suhaniaN da
Des qolaaN da qol nouN sahNban da qol qurbaniaN da


Name: Sameer - July 14, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Javed Zaki: It is good to have few professors on this board who can put things in perspective and tie the loose ends in discussions. I have a strange question and you do not have to answer if you don't want to. Moreover it is not related to the current discussion or anything Punajbyat. I asked this before at another discussion forum and somehow most pundits did not come up with any satisfactory answer.

It is about logical conclusions or extrapolation of basic Christian and Islamic belief. Christianity believe that we are all born sinners and we need to accept Jesus for salvation, or to become non-sinners. Islam believes that it is our duty to follow the path God has chosen for us and not follow the path he forbids you to follow. If you follow the forbidden path, you are committing sins.

Bearing these two basic beliefs of Christianity and Islam in mind, what is the most effective, efficient, fool proof, no fooling of God with re-reinterpretations and yet making this earth absolutely free of sins according to the basic Christian and Islamic beliefs? The only logical conclusion coming to my mind is a world (earth) devoid of human beings - no human, no sins. I would like to know if there is any wrong assumption in this logical conclusion. As long as we have human, we will have sins, murderers, cheaters, adulterers, rapists, corrupts, liars, people not practicing these two religions as God wanted and so on. Next best thing to no humans is perhaps very limited number of humans who can be easily forced or even coerced into obeying the laws of Gods in earnest.

doesn't the best solution (devoid of humanity) in itself enough to negate the basics or at least put them into unreliable if taken literally. Although God also says, be fruitful and multiply" but that is nowhere as important basic principles as I described earlier. The perfection or utmost fulfillment in total annihilation is very difficult to accept; do you agree? Individuals do sacrifice their lives for noble causes as they/ or as they are led to believe but that is markedly different than total annihilation as perfect solution. Doesn't then massacre/ mass suicide at Jonestown, Guyana makes it a step in the right direction? If that is the case, I would rather be little sinful and try to live out my life until it comes to logical conclusion naturally.

Sorry folks, last post omitted parts due to HTML command error.


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 14, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Dr. Zaki,

What are we going to achieve by pushing poor women from one state of "false consiousness" to another? The trumpted "emanicipation" is merely another form of false consiousness. That's not going to last longer, as their is already increasing realisation among "emanicipated" women in the advanced society. Let's see where we will go from there!

I have intentionally avoided the debate on Islamic laws, because there is nothing to debate about them - that's part of my belief system. If they have negative implications for my selfish desires, then that doesn't render the divine laws "negative" or "insufficient". Now, does it? I only agreed with you on the basis that in a corrupt scoiety like Pakistan where it's easy buy four "pious" witnesses there is a potential for abuse of those laws. Otherwise, I accept whatever is prescribes by the faith and if I don't then I will only be a hypocrite. We have seen the fate of "reformed" religions.

Regards


Name: Javed Zaki - July 14, 2002
E-mail: Zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Imran! Bushra Ji has very rightly responded to your misstatement of the situation regarding gender issue (in the Islamic and Pakistani context). Any society, which is based on a stratified social structure (class, ethnic OR gender), the ideology of the dominant group is consciously enforced. But challenge and resistance to the corresponding discriminatory power structure is a natural response. To safeguard their vested interests (authority in decision making in all fields of life), the dominant group (men in the present context) tends to translate the ideology in such a way that even a majority of ‘the dominated members’ of that society are indoctrinated to think that the prevalent discriminatory system is normal. The dominant group uses various means to prolong this situation. Schooling, mass media and religion are particularly used in this regard. However, the consideration of the discriminatory power structure as normal by the dominated group (women here, but particularly those women you are trying to defend) has been termed as their “false Consciousness”. However, this psychological state of false consciousness does not exist forever. Once the dominated group (women) gets realization of the existing exploitative character of the discriminatory system, conscious efforts are waged at different levels (individual and collective) to change it. Undoubtedly, it is a hard fight. History has shown men fiercely tried to resist it and used all possible means (particularly coercion; i.e., physical, social, psychological, political, economic and religious) to maintain the status quo. It is not unusual to observe that many women are cajoled to side with men in this gender struggle.
As for the continued coercion and discrimination against women, Bali Ji and Bushra Ji (and others) have clearly elaborated that it exists across boundaries of class, ethnicity, region and religion. No one maintained that it is a specific social issue of Pakistani society.
Moreover, you seemed to have intentionally avoided the discussion on some Islamic laws (which I discussed in my last posting), which are in use in many Muslim countries, including Pakistan and have shown negative implications for women. Almost all religions show a common discriminatory approach to gender issue. Nevertheless, while other religions has gone through a process of reinterpretation and reformation as impelled by the dynamics of societal change, the Islamic world in general has refused to acknowledge this requirement. Since last 600-700 years, a major portion of Islamic academic work and research has been of repetitive in nature. It has just been the ‘compiling and recompiling’ of preexisting Islamic knowledge. The dubious role of Imam Ghazali in this regard is worth mentioning.
When you made the statement that “some Islamic laws can not validly be applied because of the non-suitability of the societal situation”, you indirectly acknowledge the insufficiency f these laws. The process of societal change is ‘progressive’. It would be unnatural to assume that a society, which existed centuries before can be recreated to implement those laws. Therefore, it would be suffice to propose that those laws should be abandoned OR be sufficiently reinterpreted and reformed. I would specifically refer here all those laws, which tend to discriminate against women. Now, all those Muslim women who, according to you, want to live the so-called ‘Islamic way of life’ (it is has become very controversial whether it has any thing to do with Islam Or it is merely an extension of Saudi culture) feel comfortable with that style of living so should not be demeaned. O.K., (although various studies in this regard have reported opposite findings). Now the pertinent question here is, why do you raise hell when women such as Bushra Ji, Bali Ji, Zahra Ji and millions of other women in Muslim- non-Muslim societies who want to live the life of her choice (I refer choice here to mean, the prerogative of a woman to live her life as an independent person, pursuing gender equality in all fields of life).


Name: Sameer - July 14, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   MTM: Yaar tusi kamaal de shair ho. ik din lai eh capability udhaar mil sakdi kee? Bus zara Punjab da qaumi trana jeha likhna see. Right now I have only one line for the last one week, "des punj daryavaN dey miThe panyaN da".


Name: Bali K Deol - July 14, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   I'll get back to you on that one later Sameer. I'll say this though, you are an exception to the rule as most men that consider themselves as modern or forward thinking soon change when the situation is in their own home. Just a few days ago, friend who I know has pretty much played the field and the stands, asked me to introduce him to a girl who could be marriage material...intrigued I asked him what 'marriage material' was? Well he was looking for a girl with homely values, educated and a virgin of course. I immediately asked him why, and his excuse was QUOTE : 'I don't want no guy coming up to me, and telling me I've been with your woman, you know me I'll end up killing someone' Appalled? Surprised?? Don't be, he is by no means an isolated case, by far he is the norm. I am not making an argument for free sex here, but I hate double standards...Punjabi vich kehnde hunde ne, ki bande te naatE dhotE pehlaaN vaaNg ho jaaNdE nE, lekin kuri vart ho chuki hundi hai...second hand goods. Its pathetic, whats good for the goose should be good for the gander!

Could anyone please put MTM's latest poem into gurmukhi for me?? Tejinder, my silent reader friend, if you are reading...perhaps???


Name: Sameer - July 14, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Bushra and Bali: I hope you don't mind me jumping into your intersting discussion. If you notice in all such cases, the underlying acceptance of something with absolutely no scientific or behavioral psychological evidence. I mean that sex without society's approval is considered bad. Most of us are in this world because somewhere sometime society accepted the sexual contract between two individuals. Notice it is absolutely between two individuals but society is the main arbiter. This principle is much more stricter in male dominated societies including Middle Eastern and therefore, Judeo-Christian-Islamic as well. Wht right an outsider has to call a person cheap if he/ she has had more than average partners. Actually in nature as in animal kingdom, more sexual partners is a sign of better procreativity of the healthier genes with better chances of survival. In Plants kingdom, the the colors of beautiful flowers is basically meant to attract carriers for fertilization. Notice perennials do not have colorful flowers because they have strong roots to survive through autumn and winter and regrow next years. Annuals need all possible techniques to maximize their chances of fertilization and seeds production.

So what is wrong about sex among consenting adults who are well aware of the irresponsible behavioral results. It boggles my mind to see people killing in the name of family honor, infidelity etc. First of all none of this drops the normal frequency of human behavior nor it deters from people taking risks. Sure, it is natural to be protective and selfish of one's own genes thereby creating social structure with decreasing chances of fudging up genes. But human sex is largely non-productive, except in Bollywood movies.

Having lived through universities in USA, my observation is that men are more inclined to take risk in sexual sense. It was always us asking girls to go out not the otherway around. The lust factor is obviously there but that in itself is not a degradation of female partner's status or men taking women as toys. I have never read any study which suggests that so-called easy girls having unhealthy marriages or higher divorce rate or men not wanting to marry a partner who started off as easy sex. Actually the most couples made in campuses are more often started and remained attracted to each other because of early/ easy sex than promiscuous behavior. Even I am more in touch and have friendlier relationships with those female aassociates from university years who once had intimate relationship with me.

The desi conservatives often respond by asking, "what if your sister ir daughter having an affair and how would you deal with it". For me, no matter what my sisters do or do not do, will always have loving and caring brother. The sexual behavioral based discrimination is blown way out of proportion in out culture and traditions. This is what I call obsession with borderline issues. More recently, the psychiatrists(?) advice couples having idfficulty in their relationships, to have more blue talk and explore sex in variety of different setting than traditional settings. And here you read that he shot her and her family because she was "easy" or broke his heart. Sex is natural if the two individuals involve it do not have irresponsible behavioral tendencies. It is not a crime against society, honor etc etc.


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - July 14, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   derived from the apna posts - to apna friends:

AzlaaN touN pa'ee sahndi hik tay dukh hawwa di jaaee
Khawary kudd tak ais day nawaiN lugee qahar kamaaee

sunniaN see hunn badliaN souchaaN jay kar nazar gumaaee
jis nouN kehnday naiN tabdilee kidray nazar naa aaee

Oohaee jabbr diyaaN tasveeraaN daindiaN roz duhaaee
Oohaee sir di pagg da roula ezztaaN jind phhasaaee

bhaNwaiN rishtay vakho vakh naiN Ess layee farak na kaaee
Kee babul kee putt kee khawand kee tatRee day bhaaee

Rabba touN hi sunn lay cheekaaN touN hi kar tarsaaee
Apnay karaaN touN tay dunniyaa hay anjaam noun aaee


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 14, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Bushra Bibi,

That statement doesn't pertain only to so-called Islamic societies. Emancipated societies like the US we live in are included in that. Subjugation and slavery are relative terms and mean different things to different people. Some women may find fending for themselves a kind of subjugation and slavery by society imposed in the name of increasing economic throughput. Not all women are cut the same way and that needs to taken into account.

The problem with us is (people from our part of world) that we must swing from one extreme to another. Just read the letter sections in DAWN and The News and you will know what I am talking about. There is flurry of letters asking to hang or shoot the rapists, which is not the prescribed punishment for rape under secular law regardless of how despicable the act was. That’s just one example. It's this kind of mindset that causes the mess that we find ourselves in.

Best Regards


Name: DullaBhatti - July 14, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   This case seems to be much much more complicated than anyone thought.

Boy's ordeal that led to rape scandal
July 13 2002

Islamabad: The public gang rape of a woman in Punjab province appears to have begun with another crime: three higher-caste tribesman sodomised her 11-year-old brother, and then tried to cover up what they had done, an investigation shows.
Police even locked the boy in a cell to prevent him from reporting the three men, according to an investigation by the provincial governor, Lieutenant-General Khalid Maqbool.

The case has prompted widespread calls to rein in tribal councils, after one such in the village of Meerwala ordered the gang rape of Mukhtaran Bibi as punishment for allegations that her younger brother, Abdul Shaqoor, 11, had "illicit relations" with a 30-year-old woman from a higher caste tribe.

The rape-by-decree has shaken the country, with the Supreme Court beginning a parallel investigation and President Pervez Musharraf ordering that $A14,730 be paid to the woman as compensation.

The governor's investigation found the older woman fabricated the allegations of an affair to cover up the sodomy of the boy by her fellow tribesmen.

Three of the four rapists have since been arrested, among a total of 13 arrests in the case. An official who locked the boy in a cell to cover up the crime has been suspended.

The New York Times, Agence France-Presse


Name: Bali K Deol - July 14, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Beautifully put Bushra. Lets stretch it though to Punjabi women as a whole. People have a tendency to tell themselves that they are content in a situation because its often the only way they can continue there. Same argument used to be used for 'arranged marriages'. I used to hear people say they are better, and work better because there are less divorces. Yes well only because divorce was never an option, for a Punjabi woman divorcing 20 years ago, she was made a virtual outcast from the community.

Just to illustrate how we tend to blame the woman anytime something goes wrong, I'll go back to the story in Vernon BC where a woman, and 8 members of her faily were shot dead on her sisters wedding day by her estranged husband. I lost count of all the comments of sympathy I heard for the .............HUSBAND, the murderer...he was driven to it poor man, she was a very bad woman, she took all his money, she showed him no respect. These comments I heard from young people which really scared me. Then about 2 years ago when a young 18 year old girl Poonam Dhillon was shot dead in Vancouver by an ex boyfriend who couldn't let her go...I heard a roomful of boys from her grade telling me she was 'cheap'. It was her own fault she died, he loved her, really loved her, and she made him feel like nobody. Its sad, and it disgusts me. More than that, this youth is the future, so how far have we really advanced? Not as much as we may care to believe.


Name: DullaBhatti - July 14, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.co
Comments:   Bushra,right on. A similar argument is made by some Indians about shudras being perfectly happy with what they are and they(shudras) consider themselves Hindus first. I saw a few Indians refer to recent Gujrat riots and active participation of adivasi and shudra community in it as a vindication of their belief that shudras are just fine being shudras hence no need for improvement or chnage of status quo.


Name: Bushra Khan - July 14, 2002
E-mail: khanbushra@hotmail.com
Location: New York, NY     USA
Comments:   i don't want to get into debate. it degrades discussion. but this recent statement

"By the way, there are countless Muslim women who are perfectly comfortable with whatever rights and responsibilities Islam has accorded them."

is so commonly used that i must repond. they are comfortable because that is the only way they can be comfortable. if they want to live a happy and respectable life in an islamic society, they have no other choice but to accept the conditions imposed on them. they are allowed to be comfortable if they fit in the standards set by the society, by mullah, by their fathers, brothers and husbands. this is an argument as old as the beginning of any form of slavery and always used by the masters. even in US context, southerners used the same arguments: blacks are happy and content where they are. we treat them nicely. they are happy. what is this fuss by the north?

success in brainwahing people, subjugating their minds and souls into accepting slavery is not a justification to continue slavery. what can i say?


Name: Sameer - July 13, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Here is the latest about gang-rape case. It is amazing how MukhtaraN Bibi, despite her terrible ordeal, is focussing on helping her village in the best way possible. Here is an angel right in front of our eyes. She has put not only the criminals but the whole system to shame through her determination and positive thinking. I salute you, MukhtaraN Bibi. Abdul Sattar Qamar is the same journalist who broke the story.

Mukhtaran Bibi gets marriage proposals

Inaugurates all-boys school

By Abdul Sattar Qamar

MEERWALA: Mukhtaran Bibi, the 18-year old who was gang-raped on the order of a tribal jury here in the Muzaffargarh district has received two marriage proposals.

Army officer Mohammed Aslam Cheema from the Multan cantonment offered to take her hand in marriage through a newspaper advertisement Saturday. Another resident of the city, Ijaz Ahmed, a computer programmer, has also offered to marry Mukhtaran Bibi. Her response was not immediately clear.

On Saturday, Mukhtaran Bibi inaugurated the Government Primary School in her native Ghulam Fareed Gujjar village. Khurshid Ahmed Siddiqui, assistant education officer, said it was on her request the government established the boys’ school, the only one within a 20-km radius.

Mukhtaran Bibi has said she wants to use her compensation money (this includes Rs 500,000 from the government) to also build a school for girls and a mosque in the village. The all-girls primary school is expected to open after the summer.


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 13, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

BKD,

Let me re-orientate the debate towards Pakistan and Islam. That's the focus here or at least my concern. I believe, Islam was introduced to the area what is now Pakistan around 711/712 AD. So the concept of "half" status of woman as comapred to man must not have existed prior to that, as it was accorded to her by Islam. Now, Can you or anyone else here prove that Mukhtaran Mai is the first ever woman to be gang raped in that part of the world?

By the way, there are countless Muslim women who are perfectly comfortable with whatever rights and responsibilities Islam has accorded them. They are very secure in their beliefs and identity. I don't what the fuss is about on the part of few perturbed souls here! Women rights' activists better take stock of that instead of shoving down their version of "absolute rights" down everyone's throat. Otherwise, the toughest resistance they will face will be from the ones whose "rights" they are masqurading for. As far as more is concerned, for some people more is never enough. Baqol-e-Ghalib:

HazaroN khahisheN aisi ke har khahish peh dam nikle...


Name: Bali K Deol - July 13, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Point taken Imran....but gang rapes, honour killings are all extremes that arise out of a general atmosphere where women are considered inferior to men and simply HALF the value to that of a man. That remark has a deeper meaning. Let me put it like this how many religions do not denote women to a secondary status? You are right I am not an expert on Islam, but I have the Qu'ran at home which I often read, not so I can poke holes but so I can have a deeper understanding. This is order to be able to create more tolerance and acceptance in my own mind in this crazy world.

Culture and religion both play a role in this problem we are talking about. I think somewhere earlier yourself or perhaps it was Khwaja who said he believes Punjabi culture has most been influenced by Islam. I'm not going to say I agree with this, but I do agree that both influence each other. There are many ways in which Islam did raise the status of woman at least in those early times. Today though in the world in which we live, we need more! Sometimes what takes us forward at one point, takes us back at another! I apologise if find my viewpoint offensive.

Thanks Shikra, I have heard the original and it is in a class of its own.


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 13, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

BKD,

First of all, when we introspect, the purpose is to evaluate our own performance, identify shortcomings, and hopefully take corrective actions. The violence against women in this particular case is being introspected in the context of Pakistan which inculdes all of its provinces and their undeniable cultural baggage. I would reiterate my position that Islam has nothing to do with gang rpaes, honor killings, and such. Nobody has singled out Punjab. East Punjab is not even in details, as it's none of our concerns, or at lease mine.

Now when you start drawing analogy between "supression" of women in the name of religion going on in Saudi Arabia and that in Pakistan, your underlying supposition (link) is religion, Islam in this case which many of non-Muslims like yourself have very little understanding of and tend to focus on only the aspects projected in the media.

Media more often than not foucuse on only the negatives of everything, as positives are hardly considered news worthy. When was the last time you heard anything about the status accorded to mother in Islam who also happens to be a woman? However, media is not enitrely to be blamed either, because unfortunately, we ourselves never seem to fail in providing the fuel due to whatever reasons.

On the closing note, just because you do not believe in something (divine God) that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. So, to you, your God and to me, mine. I will have to leave it at that!


Name: Shikra - July 13, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Bali: nice choice of song but the original was written by and sang by Shaukat Ali who incidently was in my town a few weeks working with a colleague of mine in his studio. Shaukat usually sings it with the sher... lagdi nalo tut di changi ena bekadrah di yaari , ballah hoya lardh nerdio shutiya oh kithe umar na guzri saari. I usually sing it with...Pulh pulekeh ek din loko assi pyar kiseh naal kar beteh, oh ishq di hatiyo khand samaj ke asi zehar di chutki khaa beteh. Hope you appreciate this bit of usless information ;-))


Name: Bali K Deol - July 13, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Sameer, since you like the UK music scene, a favourite of mine, Safri dee awaaz vich 'Kyon door door rehande ho hazoor saade koloN'....the production is really nice, the real shame is you missed the sher that went before it that I added personally...;-)

Here is a poem about women, the way they have traditionally been viewed in our part of the world especially.

Saiyo, nee meri chaaR dinaaN di jindri

Pehle din meiN baap dee pagri
hassiyaa nachiyaa jo dig dig kardi
JisdE dignoN dardi nee meiN
DaRR DaRR, nachdi hasdi
Saiyo, nee meri chaaR dinaaN di jindri

DoojE din meiN adh-aaNg paTi da
Adhi ho ho paalaaN dharam saTi da
Adhaapaan nibhaunE khaataaR
Nee meiN poori hono dardi
saiyo, nee meri chaaR dinaaN di jindri

TeejE din meiN 'RaajE' janmaaN
Phir ohna dee parjaa ban-jaaN,
RaajE raaj karan mErE tE
JiveN ohna di marzi
Saiyo nee, meri chaaR dinaaN di jindri

ChauthE din meiN khed khidaaveeN
PotiyaaN, dotiyaaN dee parchaavee
Bas iyoN apni khed mukaaVaaN
Khed horaaN layi baandi
Saiyo nee meri chaaR dinaaN di jindri

............... I've often heard men say to their partners, well what do you want I have given you your freedom, I LET you do what you want, and it would make me laugh if it wasn't so downright ridiculous. Who gave them the right to take to decide whether you should have your own freedom or not! Beats me folks!


Name: Sameer - July 13, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Good job, Bali. it should help clear some air overhere. Women's rights is a very serious issue particularly if Punjabs have to progress socially and economically. Education must be the top priority for Pakistan and Punjab. The literacy level of Pakistani Punjabi women is about half that of men. That leaves them primarily tied to home or working in the fields. The rights do not come without power. They should be empowered in order to fight for a just society. Whenever a woman is truted for a job, be that of Prime Minister, Ambassador or any other capacity, their gender has never effected their performance. Actually if one counts the corrupt bureaucrats, politicians and military officials, the list is almost devoid of women except Benazir. Even in that case her husband is considered nore corrupt than her. Women need a full 50 percent representation in the upper echelons of the power to accelerate the empowerment and education process. I tremendously admire the work Asma Jahangir and her sister Hina Gilani are doing. I would love to see her running for election and even becoming prime minister. Here is a Punjabi lady, we can all be proud of.

Bali, I could not listen to your show yesterday. I wonder what song did you play? May I know it?


Name: Bali K Deol - July 13, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Looks like the board is behind...I wrote that last post in response to a post by someone a about 6 posts down. Anyways, its vital that we stop being so defensive in matters of faith. Bushra and I had a private discussion awhile back, and she gave me some heavy insights into what needs to change in order for there to be a real upturn in women's status in Pakistan. As it was in private I can't share her thoughts, but being the true Punjaban sherni she is, I'm sure she will come through with a few on her own accord.

Imran, you are right about India, it does have a dismal record of its own, as to how women are treated in some parts. Law is not always put into practice. The law though must be a start, followed by education, and implementation. We have talked about extremes like Sati, dowry and honour killings, rape...yet on a daily level ask a woman who has been outcast from her community for simply deciding on how she wishes to live her OWN life, whether she be in India or Pakistan...their experience will be the same. ........I had written a whole paragraph here, but on reflection thought perhaps its going to be more than some people can take...so perhaps another time, or another forum.

Sameer, lao ji karlo gal...mainu te apne 6 sense de vich bahut vishwaas see, and I played a song just for you yesterday' Looks like I'm going to have to check the frequency. :-))


Name: Bali K Deol - July 13, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Somebody wrote 'it's proud (pun intended) Punjabi and other native communities that are blott on Pakistan's human rights record due to their backward mindset regarding women'

I'll agree that Punjabi's need to change in terms of the way we view women, as do most communities in South Asia. Lekin to blame everything on Punjabi culture is really short-sighted. I suppose its Punjabis that supressing women in Saudi Arabia too. We all know how well the Arabs treat their women. Please don't anyone come back with the weak excuse that its all western propaganda. I do not wish to criticize anyone's faith. Yet I'm going to go out on a limb and say that all religions are man-made, none are flawless, none beyond reproach - where there are issues in faith that conflict with human rights we should address those and not simply pass the buck to culture. Most religions have not done enough to raise the status of women to an equal level in their scriptures and without pointing at anyone, some have written in black and white 'truth as told by God' that allow men to continue to subjugate women with the full backing of the scriptures.

The word 'pagan' is beginning to bug me. I recall about 8 years ago attending a six week taster course to philosophy and the week we spoke of God, some woman said 'our God' within a statement. I asked her to explain what she meant by 'our God'. She said I mean the Christian God, like you have your Pagan God, Muslims have their God, etc..... I informed her that she really needed to revisit her thoughts on this one and that as a Sikh I believe only in one God...the same God that every being prays to...

Whenever I hear the word pagan I start thinking of witches being burned at the stake etc...

I think in these changing times the dictionary needs to elaborate on the meaning of this word.

With reference to Bushra's post (hi, btw Bushra)

In which country are women who have been raped liable to be charged with adultery and stoned to death in punishment? If this is simply a cultural problem, that we can blame on pgans and Punjabi culture, why is it not happening in East Punjab? Yes East Punjab has its own problems with female-foetus abortion etc...

My point is the blame lies sometimes with culture but religion is not always blameless. Be brave and take an honest look, without being defensive.


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 13, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Sameer,

Without being vindictive, self-centered, and what not, I would politely point out that the norm is to compare apples with apples and not oranges. Comparing Indo-Pak subcontinent with Sweeden in especially violence against women is simply defying the norm. Bushra is wrong in saying that India is any better off in this respect. She just needs to reflect upon evil customs like dowry and selective abortions. Laws exist only on books and unless they are strictly enforced they are worth squat. As far as women's rights are concerned, I think, women find men masquerading as women rights activist quite amusing even repulsive to some extent. To them, all of us will always be "pigs" at one level or another. Ask one any day!

Now, when you use derogatory terms like "Muttaraf", you are letting your ethnic prejudices and biases take over which render your “introspection” anything but an objective analysis. Musharraf's firing the "heavy mandate" (which we have now found out was more courtesy ISI's manipulating elections than genuine popularity of blue eyed boy aka Nawaz of martial law regime of zia!) was totally justified and many people were just happy to get rid of him. I am glad that Musharraf is taking all the precautions regarding his security now primarily due to Al-Qaida. He was very laid back in the beginning. That doesn't mean that I support each and every step of his in clinging to power though. I don't believe one man fix all of our problems. He is no Ata-Turk, he just deluging himself and the public.

Regards


Name: Sameer - July 13, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Why stop at Ghalib or Noon Meem Rashid? If the discussion is not about Punjabi poets and writers than all bets are off. Actually Robinder Nath Tagore and Nazar Ul Islam will be the best South Asian poets. And why just South Asians? Wht not talk about Naghib Mahfouz, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Carlos Fuentes and the great writers from around the world?

Similarly if Musharraf's community is better in respecting women, perhaps Sweedish Prime Minister's community is much better than Musharraf's. The sad fact is than not just Punjab, Pakistan or India but most of the world does not give equally respectful status to women.

There is no point to jump on Bushra Khan or anybody else for talking about status of women in Pakistan with immediately adding India to the list or comparing it with India. What she did or I do frequently is called introspectioin and it is different than criticism. The criticism is open ended and it does not have to stop at India. It can include any country, any culture from anywhere on the earth or even Martians. Pakistanis are better than Indians at introspection; Indians are much more defensive of India. It is upto indivduals of Indian origin to introspect about India without feeling a sigh of relief through comparison with Pakistani situation. Same is true for individuals of Pakistani origin.

Vajpai is not my concern in introspection, Musharraf certainly is. Pakistan is where most of my family and friends live and that is why, my focus is exclusively Pakistan. Here is a person who grabbed power through back door without justification (Prime Minister had the right to fire COAS, it may be stupid move but certainly not illegal), totally rejected by people in referendum, bent on hanging on to power as long as possible with unilaterally amending constitution, and scared to death to travel anywhere in Pakistan. His travel plans are kept tightly secret and security preparations start month in advance even if it is a travel from Islamabad to Lahore. Whole city remains under virtual curfew as long as he is in the city. It has nothing to do with fear from Indians at the border, he is scared of Pakistanis. From that standpoint, Vajpai does not count in this introspective discussion no matter how much I dislike Vajpai.

Since this site is focussed on Punjabi culture, criticism is much less important than introspection. DullaBhatti has introspected once when talking about the current Punjab government and Punjabi language. I just hope than Punjabis from India are more forthcoming when it comes to introspection. I think introspection helps fine tuning opinion and idea and looking at the issue nore rationally.

Kee khyal ae Bali, how about little introspection from you about women status in Punjab or India? Okay, I will listen to your show on Monday for first half hour, for sure.


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 13, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Dr. Zaki,

I am not hurt at all. I was just pointing out that we are on the same page vis-a-vis propensity of miscreants in abusing Islamic laws which sloely rely on eye witness account. In a society like Pakistan it's not hard to buy four "pious" witnesses and damn somebody to stonning to death just to settle personal scores. As you rightly pointed out there are numerous unfortunate victims of "Hudood Ordinance" and "blasphemy law" confined to the gallows.

The precise word would have been difficult verbage. Yes, Noon Meem Rashid, as you rightly pointed out, was the most modernist of poets who dared to challange established norms of poetry by devising "azad shaaery". His times were when poetry was still heavily persianised. Besides, I believe he spent quite a bit of times in Iran as a diplomat that definitely had influences on his work. And splendid it is. I simply marvel at his beautiful imagination expressed in equally beautiful terms.

Regards


Name: Javed Zaki - July 13, 2002
E-mail: Zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Mr. Imran! I feel sorry if I heart you on account of my misjudgment of your socio-religious leanings.

Noon Meem Rashid was one of the most modernist poets in Urdu poetry. The many idioms, similes and symbols he used in his poetry did not belong to the local culture. I am not saying it is incorrect to borrow them from other cultures. But sometimes it becomes very difficult to decipher, decode and translate them to fit into the local socio-cultural environment. As they are developed in a specific cultural context they have specific references and meanings. Moreover, to decipher poetic symbols of higher abstract level one requires a deep understanding of the socio-cultural milieu surrounding the poet itself and in general. It is sociological impossible for a sensitive person (like a poet and other persons involved in other arts) not be affected by what is happening in his/her social surroundings. But then each reader (Or a group of readers with commonality of social thoughts) may have a different interpretation depending on his/her personal and social leanings. I would like to refer here the debate on "Sufism", which we had few weeks ago. Some people emphasized their social role (and their poetry) to be strictly interpreted in the realm of religion. Others leaned more on the idea to take them as "Prophets of peace and brotherhood." Anyways, their language, their craftsmanship and symbols they used mainly stemmed from the local social surroundings. So, people were able to easily relate to them. The multiple interpretation of their poetry in particular can suffice be appreciated to reflect "aafaqiat", as their message was, although in different context. For example, "Kafi", a very common form of Punjabi poetry particularly among Punjabi classical poets traditionally has been described to invoke religious message. But some fresh realizations have incited many modernist Punjabi literary critics to give new meanings. In common with that many Punjabi poets (including myself) are trying to infuse new messages while keeping the classical form and craftsmanship of Kafi. Some modernist Punjabi poets have even experimented to reform the classical form and craftsmanship of Kafi.


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 13, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Sham,

I don't what the hell Shamm stand for. So, I might have jumped the gun earlier. Just in case, if thy are a female; I would retort your query as - damn girl you are so ugly, I feel like turning gay at the sight of you. hahaha...


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 12, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Bushra Bibi,

I agree with most of the remarks of Najam Sethi. I was merely replying to Shikra Ji's post on factual basis. Anyway, I think, and again that's my own opinion, Musharraf has made some progress, at least, on women's participation (in decision making) front. I believe, he has increased women seats in the assemblies and a lot of women contested and won local bodies elections as well. Now, as far as grass roots change vis-a-vis attitude of society toward women's rights is concerned that can only be realized by the change of mindset which is going to take time. Musharraf doesn't have a magic wand to bring that about. Women in Musharraf's own community are amply empowered due to high literacy rate and civilised values, it's proud (pun intneded) Punjabi and other native communities that are blott on Pakistan's human rights record due to their backward mindset regarding women. I betterstop, lest I be labelled chavunist for exposing hypocracies.

Best Regards


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 12, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Dr. Zaki,

You are putting your words in my mouth. Nowhere, I have condoned laws like "Hudood Ordinance" or encouraged discrimination against women in the name of Islam or culture. I vehemently oppose both - cultural and religious. I would reiterate that I prefer manmade laws due to changed dynamics of societies. You cannot enforce Islamic laws in societies that are lacking pre-requisites. My only problem is when buffoons start attacking religion for all the wrong reasons.

I never found Shiv Kumar Batalvi worth reading. That's my prerogative. Besides, a poet has to have substance (beauty of thought) and not just flaunt his/her vocabulary. That's my impression of SKB. I admire Poets like Ghalib and Noon Meem Rashid who while using difficult idioms compel you to make an effort to go an extra mile by the sheer force of the beauty of their imagination. Nationalist fervor has nothing to do with my passing up on SKB. Just because somebody writes in a particular language doesn’t make it mandatory for the all the speakers to like him or her.

Regards


Name: Javed Zaki - July 12, 2002
E-mail: Zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Mr. Imran! I politely suggest that you should do some objective readings to substantiate your statement about the bleak situation of women in Muslim state like Pakistan (and other countries too, whether Muslim and non-Muslim), where according to you the true Islamic system is not in practice. The Most significant issue with regard to women status in the religious context is to see whether Islam establishes the institution of patriarchy (a normative structure which tend to establish male domination in decision making in all spheres of life, consequently discriminate against and exploit women) and support it? I would like to draw your attention to some specific Islamic laws and their implications in real life situation in Pakistani context. These laws were implemented during the dark period of the “Khalifa-tul-Monafikeen” General Dia-ul-Haq. These laws were implemented after having been assessed, analyzed and scrutinized by the so-called certified Mullahs of the Islamic Ideological Council, a stronghold of the Jamaat-I-Islami.

THE LAW OF EVIDENCE AND “HADOOD ORDINANCE”: We know, according to the law of evidence, a woman’s evidence is not permissible in a “shaaria” court of Pakistan even if a woman is highly qualified. The law is based on one particular ayah in Sura Al-Nisa, which concerns with business transaction involving a woman. The implementation of this law produced horrible implications for many women who were sexually abused. There were cases when few women who have been raped by men (sometimes very close relatives) when approached the court for justice, in fact were sentenced. These women were asked to produce four “practicing, pious Muslims” as evidence who should have witnessed the raping event, having had happened with their own eyes. A woman’s own account of raping event and identification of the culprit was not deemed admissible. But as she accepted that event to have happened (in a couple cases, it was obvious through their having had became pregnant), under a sub-law of “Hadood Ordinance” (I think it is called ‘Taqseer”), she/they was/were sentenced to be lashed. There are thousands of women in Pakistani jails having being implicated wrongly but under this law. It is simply impossible to convict any culprit of rape according to this law. We must bear in mind that rapists are usually men.
There are some other religious laws in the domain of marriage institution which as interpreted by religious extremists would appear gender discriminatory, such as ‘Permission of “Wali’ for a women to get married. To seek divorce, a woman can invoke “Khulla” only which means that she has to prove that his husband is in un-Islamic way. The violence against her may not be a sufficient source of divorce plea as the orthodox religious bigots wrongly translate an ayah from Quran that the beating of wife is permissible.

To enjoy a poet of higher caliber (like Shiv Batalvi) you need to be in appropriate state of poetic mind and to be free of all reservations, particularly religious and national chauvinism.


Name: Bushra Khan - July 12, 2002
E-mail: khanbushra@hotmail.com
Location: New York,      USA
Comments:   fahim: wrong as always. imran: Of course, friday times being a pakistani paper was talking about pakistan alone. rest of the article is about mush's insensivity to women's issues. can we extend it to the whole subcontinent? probably yes. but as far as the questions by najm, the answer was supposed to be Pakistan. my own study is that as far as constitutional and legal system is concerned, in india laws for women are much better than in pakistan. in reality women face the same kind of problems in both countries. difference is india is going farward in giving rights (legally) to women and minorities, pakistan is going backwards.


Name: Mahmud Fahim - July 12, 2002
E-mail: agsmz@yahoo.com
Comments:   It's not Pakistan, it is Indo-Pak Subcontinent.


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 12, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Shikra Ji,

Pakistan hasn't become the land of pure yet, as its inhabitants have kept their Pagan ancestoral traditions depsite accepting Islam on the surface. Not long ago, they used to "satti" women, now they marry them to Quran. what say you?

Regards


Name: Shikra - July 12, 2002
E-mail: Prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Bushra: could that be the land of the pure by any chance aka Pakistan?


Name: shikra - July 12, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Bushra: Could that be the land of the pure aka Paistan by any chance?


Name: Bushra Khan - July 12, 2002
E-mail: khanbushra@hotmail.com
Location: New York, NY     USA
Comments:   finally, a newspaper editorial (friday times – najm sethi) with same concerns i have been trying to raise on this forum. sorry for the long quote. it is worth reading:

In which country are women who have been raped liable to be charged with adultery and stoned to death in punishment?

In which country are women liable to be publicly gang raped on the orders of “democratic” village community organizations like jirgas and panchayats in revenge for alleged crimes committed by male members of their families and clans?

In which country are young girls criminally assaulted by deranged, perverted or powerful individuals as a matter of routine and condemned to live a “shameful” lie in silence?

In which country are women killed to avenge the perceived “honour” of their male relatives, tribes, clans, village elders, and influential families even though they may not have committed any crime?

In which country are women defaced and deformed by frustrated, “acid throwing” maniacs?

In which country are women burnt alive in “stove explosions” engineered by enraged in laws, husbands, brothers and fathers?

In which country do judges clutch at medieval notions of dishonour, inequality, piety and even religiosity to punish and demean women?

In which country are state and society predisposed against women?

If the answers are shameful and embarrassing, we should do something about it. If it is hurtful to see the foreign media washing our filthy linen in public, we should put an end to our dirty practices. If we are appalled by such brutality, we should protest vehemently. If we are aghast at such injustice, we should institutionalize punishments for crimes against women. If our laws are misplaced or discriminatory, we should change them.


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 12, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

No Pakistan will be an acceptable alternative to a subservient to India Pakistan...


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 12, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

The current impasse cannot be allowed to continue for extended period of time. India's strategy is to bleed Pakistan's economy white by sitting idle close to its border. Pakistan should counter it by raising the tension levels to an unacceptably high levels through whatever measures, so that Indian economy bleeds too by cancellation of export orders and scaring away of foreign investors.

Sooner or later it will become untenable for India to sit idly on the border. It will either have to attack us or pull back its troops to peacetime positions. So there should be persistent cross-border infiltrations, covert provocative activity in the mainland India, and what have you to keep pressure on Vajpayee and co.


Name: P S KAHLON - July 12, 2002
E-mail: PKAHLON@TNSTATE.EDU
Comments:   Bagga JI: Thanks for the info. I have orderd the books along with another from BN. I have several books on Punjabs History but I am looking for ancient books when people were less biased against each other. One of my friend from India was visiting here last month and suggested, " A History Of India" By Romela Thapper. He is a well read person who retired as VC of Pb. Agri. Univ. Can you Imagine in current situation somebody will write a book like "Sahibe Kamal" By Himmat Rai in 1901. He says in Preface that being Arya Samaji I had to write this book because Sikhs have not done justice to Guru Gobind Singh. Thanks again. Rabb Rakha


Name: P S KAHLON - July 12, 2002
E-mail: PKAHLON@TNSTATE.EDU
Comments:   Bagga JI: THanks for the info. I have orderd the books along with another from BN. I have several books on Punjabs History but I am looking for ancient books when people were less biased against each other. One of my friend from India was visiting here last month and suggested, " A History Of India" By Romela Thapper. He is a well read person who retired as VC of Pb. Agri. Univ. Can you Imagine in current situation somebody will write a book like "Sahibe Kamal" By Himmat Rai in 1901. He says in Preface that being Arya Samaji I had to write this book because Sikhs have not done justice to Guru Gobind Singh. Thanks again. Rabb Rakha


Name: PS kahlon - July 12, 2002
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Comments:   Shahzad Dear: I am in full agreement with you that not only war creates powerty but powerty create wars. Politicians want to divert attentions of people to get elected. It happens in every country, Even in this country when politicians get into trouble, they create some intenational incident to rally people behind them. It is unfortunate but true. It is the duty of the common people to hold the corrupt politicians resposible for the development of the country and not let them follow the policy of divide and rule like our previous masters. Best wishes, Rbb Rakha


Name: shahzad maqbool - July 12, 2002
E-mail: pattokee@hotmail.com
Location: islamabad,      paksitan
Comments:   EU ponders immigration Issue as a right wing chill sweept across europe this year,half a decade of centre-left political thought in France,Holadn and denmark was superseded by the ideology of the centre-right .Las tmonth EU leaders and ministers convened a summit in the spanish city of seville to discuss the issue at the hart of the current turmoil: immigration and asylum policies... Joined by Italy and Spain, Britain proposed that aid to poor countried should be conditional on how effectively they setem the tide of migrants leaving theri shores for Europe.However ,there was no shortage of critics. In the end all parties agreed that these sanctions would only serve as the last resort in dealing with non-cooperative countries.Ohter initiative included increased coordination on external borders..cooperation in ivisa issuing and a timetable for agreeing upon a definition of asylum seekers... actully i quoted this from Herald.... the thing that came i n my mind is that ...first of all more of the people on this forum are from foreign countries...but belonging to indoe -pak...the question is that why we people move to europe/candada/ameirca,for better future..? can't we create here such circumstances that we can get good jobs here....,good future here..? why i want to go to america/austrailia..for good job.. terrorists are always born in poverty..most of them.. so why we are still quaralling after 50 years.... see towards South korea...Japan...there development.. i think it's time....we should ....do somethnig...for our ocountry..we should stop corruption. ok,bye


Name: shahzad maqbool - July 12, 2002
E-mail: pattokee@hotmail.com
Location: islamabad,      paksitan
Comments:   Khalon sirjee and dear sameer,i think yes,i do agree with you that it's the media which has created differences in the people of india/pakistan..i think poverty is due to war,so we should propagate for love.do yoou people agree with me....


Name: bagga - July 12, 2002
E-mail: aaa@aol.com
Comments:   Kahlon ji, if u want to a good book on well the end of ranjit sings times, get "Fall of Sikh Empire" by Alexander Garner. Gardner was an american soldier employed by ranjit singh and worked closesly under Gulab singh. They actually have a picture of him in "Warrior Saints" the picture book that came out a couple of years ago. He gives a eye witness account of the events that followed ranjit singh's death. He was actually there when the dogra brothers killed Hira singh( i think thats his name, the eldest son of Ranjit). It is definaelty interesting reading. I got it from bn.com a while back, they might still have it.


Name: Javed Zaki - July 11, 2002
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   FRIDAY TIMES (Lahore) Jailed in India, unwanted in Pakistan.
(Story of Another Unlucky Women)

Khalid Hasan

Saadat Hasan Manto been alive, he would have written a story about Shahnaz Kausar as moving as his immortal tale about Bishen Singh, the mysterious resident of the Lahore lunatic asylum, who wanted neither to live in Pakistan nor India but Toba Tek Singh, the town where he was born and where he had grown up.

I am merely a journalist and can only tell in plain words the story of this young woman, a single mother with a small child, whom the Indians prefer to keep in jail and the Pakistanis, her countrymen, out of their land that also happens to be hers. I am indebted to my friend, the Indian journalist Mannika Chopra who learnt about Shahnaz Kausar during a recent visit to Jammu and wrote about her in the American newspaper, “Boston Globe”, recently. Truth is not only stranger than fiction but often more moving than fiction. Here is Shahnaz Kausar’s story.

She told Mannika, whose family incidentally comes from what is now our bit of the Punjab, that it took her no longer than a heartbeat to decide to end her life by jumping into the river, a tributary of the Jhehlum, because she could no longer take her husband’s family’s constant taunts about her infertility. So on a sunny October morning in 1995, she walked towards the river from her village of Haryan da Bagh, tehsil Sumani in district Mirpur, Azad Kashmir, and jumped in.

“Before I jumped in the river, I said to it, ‘Please kill me’. If I had died that would have been easier. My life would have been over. Now I feel that I am being punished for wanting to kill myself, which in Islam is considered to be a sin,” she told Mannika.

Shahnaz did not die. She floated down the tributary which took her into the Indian part of Kashmir where she was fished out by a border guard in the Rajouri district of Jammu. She told the guard that she was from Pakistan but she wasn’t a spy. After spending a few days in a rural hospital, she was produced before a magistrate who sentenced her to a year in prison for having entered the country “illegally”without a passport or visa. She was also fined a couple of hundred rupees, money that she did not, of course, have. In line with the majesty of law, as interpreted by courts in India and Pakistan, her term, therefore, was extended by three months. She was moved to a jail in Poonch where in January 1996, she was raped by a warden.

She told Mannika, “When it was happening, I didn’t want to scream for help, because I thought the warden might kill me. And then I thought that even if I shouted, perhaps being a Pakistani, nobody would come.” She did later summon the courage to complain to the warden’s seniors as to what had happened and the rapist was suspended from his post. It was said he would be tried but there is no evidence he was. And then a strange thing happened. Shahnaz found that she was pregnant. She was offered an abortion which she refused. She gave birth to a girl child she named Mobin which means clear, distinct and bright. “The best memory of my life is connected to its saddest event. It was the worst possible way to have a child, but I felt fulfilled at the same time,” she told Mannika.

Shahnaz served out her sentence but no one told her that she was now free. How word of her predicament got out is not clear, but an Indian NGO, the World Human Rights Protection Council, found her a lawyer, the Jammu-based A. K. Sawhney, but he was unable to secure her release. She was transferred to Jammu jail where she has been held since. In Agust 2000, fresh charges were filed against her under the Indian Public Safety Act. She was tried one more time and sentenced to another two years in prison.
Her lawyer said the Public Safety Act charge was laughable because it implied that she was connected with the Kashmir militancy. He wrote several times to the Indian External Affairs ministry in New Delhi about Shahnaz’s plight but there was no response, while the Pakistan High Commission, as was to be expected, to whom he also wrote, replied that it could not comment “until it had reviewed the matter further.” So from a woman with a small child who was being unjustly held, she had become a “matter” that had to be “reviewed further.” An official told Mannika that in the past year, the Indian authorities had made three attempts to send Shahnaz back but each time she had been turned back at Wagha because her daughter Mobin was an “Indian citizen.”
And why was she being kept in jail? Because she was a Pakistani citizen without valid papers who could not be sent to a home for those with nowhere to go. S. S. Ani, an Indian official, told Mannika, “It is not an ideal situation for her, but under the circumstances, it is the only option.” While her husband has refused to even acknowledge that Shahnaz ever existed, one of her brothers who works in Saudi Arabia has petitioned the Pakistan embassy there several times but without luck. The former ISI chief who represents the Islamic Republic in the Kingdom has obviously more important things to do, such as writing inane articles in newspapers.
Meanwhile, little Mobin who was born in captivity and has never seen the outside of a jail is escorted to a local school by a policeman whom she calls “Policeman uncle”. When the day is done, he brings her back. Mobin is a bright child and can sing the entire English alphabet. “She will be the only one among her cousins who would know English,” her mother says proudly. When General Musharraf went to Agra, in the first flush of what looked like détente, an immediate exchange of prisoners was arranged. Shahnaz and Mobin were among the six chosen to be returned. However, when their turn came, the Pakistani border guards said that while they were willing to take the mother, who was a Pakistani citizen, they could not take Mobin because her father was an Indian.
Like Kashmir, the fate of Shahnaz Kausar and little Mobin who can sing the entire English alphabet, remains unresolved.


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 11, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Sameer,

First of all, "taali dono hathooN si bajti hai"; Vajpayee and co. has demonstrated no rationality either by piling a million on our borders. Musharraf may not be a "rational" person, but it's his restraint that his averted war so far. If he was indeed "mischievous", then there would have already been war and we would be done over mourning charred bodies of millions of South Asians, already. You have to give him credit for that.

Culpability of Nawaz is no less than Musharraf in Kargil episode. Musharraf might have drafted the incursion plan, but it was "Kashmiri" Nawaz who approved it. It's Benazir and Nawaz who are squarely to be blamed for disastrous Kashmir and Afghan policy. Kashmir had been on back burner even during a decade long Zia's rule. It was Benazir who revived a dormant issue and made "freedom" of Kashmir center of her foreign policy.

No sane person would wish a war. But, if Indian do not pack up their bags and leave our borders soon, then Pakistan shouldn’t hesitate in launching a pre-emptive strike regardless of the consequences. Pakistanis will support Musharraf regardless of the outcome.

Regards


Name: Sameer - July 11, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Shahzad: Now you are talking. See before you wanted to just chat and this precious little forum was more intersted in good discussions and promotion of Punjabi cultural.

As Prof. Kalon said that threat of nuclear war was very small but given the consequences and past stupidities of our rulers - including misadventure by Muttarraf for the sole purpose of derailing Lahore peace initiative and bringing down the increasing power of civilian elected leadership at the expense of military-bureaucratic hegemony - anything is expected. The thirst for power of this man can lead to any and many illogical steps. In current environlent it is even more important to devise strategies to counter the war mongering and irrational Muttaraf and his coaterie.

Wihtout denying my love for Punjabyat, the by-product in the form of peace through better understanding and friendliness among Punjabis has always been a factor in most of what I write. A better understanding among 100+ million Punjabis will go long way in easing tensions for over a billion souls of South Asia.

Yes it can happen and without denying corruption and feudalissm in Pakistani politicians, we were on the right track. The forces of status quo, hostilities - the military establsihment and bureaucracy were losing their grip on the important affairs of Pakistan. The strengthening of democratic institutions and the power of civilian elected representatives would have made changes from top down towards peaceful South Asia. The equation for corrupt and feudal loaded parliamentarians was simple. They had to offer to their constituency a better living for their bid for relelection. A better living for average Pakistani is just impossible without bringing down exceptionally high level of military spending which leaves nothing for development programs. So, a democratic, independent, powerful and enlightened leadrship is most important and Punjabis trying to ease tensions through better uderstanding and finding common causes next to most important one.

Believe me, interacting here is not for fun; I have definite motives as I have outlined above. This is not a hobby or trying to gain some minor recognition from a handful of people. The future of South Asia depends on the level of understanding between Punjabis in general and their leaderships in particular. It may sound a wishful thinking but it is not. That is why, I support those Punjabis in Pakistan who are independent minded and sensible enough not to be stooges of military-bureaucratic allaince. I do not care if PPP or PML (n) wins but chamcha league and NA should be defeated.

Regards


Name: P S Kahlon - July 11, 2002
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Comments:   Bagga Ji: One more thing that will shed some light on religious boundaries or lack of it. One of my Brahman friend gave me a book that he cherishes. The title of the book is; Jap Ji Sahib And Sukhmani Sahib--Simple Urdu In Poetry( Assan Urdu Nazam Mein) By Khan Bahadur Khawaja Dill Mohammad Sub Registrar Lohore,Fellow Pb. Univ. Retired Principal Islamia College Lahore. 3rd Print 1948 Price 3.5 Rs Available Khawaja Book Depot.Mohan Lal Rd.Lahore The AUTHOR RECEIVED A FIRST PLACE PRIZE OF Rs. 1000 from The Govt. Of Pujab For this Publication The Same Author Translated GEETA AND RECEIVED A PRIZE OF RS.1000. I hope one of these days I will be able to go to Pakistan and collect some books like these and any that deals with Ranjit Singh times.


Name: P S Kahlon - July 11, 2002
E-mail: Pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Comments:   Bagga Ji: My experince is the same. There was no conflict that was based on religion atleast in my surroundings. I was 11 when we left and all school children probably did not see other kids as if they were Muslims/Sikhs/Hindus. I could have more details about Partition because our experience was very different. We were the last major group of 20 Miles long Kafila that left under Indian Military escort. We passed through Lyall pur city that was under curfew On 15/16 Oct., Katak Di Sangrand, and that is 2 months past partition. You can always find fundamentalist in every religion who try to divide people for their own good. My difinition of a Khatri/Arora in particular and Hindus in general was that those the the people who went to Gurdwara every day and most Jatts went to Gurdwara once a month around the time of Parshad distrbution( You can rationalise by saying that they were in their fields but I wanted to make a factual statement). Muslims in general did not go to Gurdwara ( Poor people of all religions will sit outside)even though they will sing hyms from SGGS. WE used to go to KHangas and muslim Darwaishs. Even when I came to this country, all Punjabi's were very close to each other. Then war broke in 1962 and we use to curse politicians as the Punjabi blood was spilling on both sides, it did not change our relations at all. That is the reason I was shocked at the Distrust(even hate) that I was sensing and now I understand because I was dealing with people of my age and Sameer's statement made me realize that if you have not seen those days and you are only exposed to current propaganda , you have different prospective. Regards


Name: bagga - July 11, 2002
E-mail: aaa@aol.com
Comments:   Kahlon ji, speaking of pre partiion,, i came across a book, "The construction of Religious boundaries" by harjot oberoi. I have only read the first chapter so far,, but he paints a very integrated picture of punjab in the nineteen century. Accoring to his research, religous boundaries were not as rigid as we are led to believe today. There was no set Hindu, Sikh , Musalman. Depending on local influences, people all faiths took parts in certain aspects of each others faith; to a lesser extent muslims would go to mandirs, and vice versa. He gives an example of some sikh in a high position, who would worship idols with the same regard as doing path. I haven't gotten too far into the book, but it is very interesting. Anyone care to comment on this?? Sound believable?? Looking on the net i also found a book "The invasion of religios boundaries" written solely to critique his work, haven't got my hands on it yet though.


Name: Shikra - July 11, 2002
E-mail: Prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Imran, I understand where you're comming from when you say you cannot connect with Shiv's poetry, I too felt the same as a teenager. I wasnt familiar with some of his words and sentences and it was only after I persistently asked my mother to explain some of the words to me that I began to understand at least some of his work. Also listening to his recorded work by various singers was a big help (most of which is available on this site). I used to think of it as a whole new language because the words and vocabulary he used were hardly used by the average punjabi, and it was a kind of challege to understand it.


Name: P S Kahlon - July 11, 2002
E-mail: Pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Comments:   Shahzad Dear: I have less worry about nuclear war because it is not likely. I am more concerned about the day to day hot air that create hatred among people. It did not hit me until Sameer made a statement that most Pakistani had never seen a Sikh or Hindu. It is then that I realize that I was living in a dream world that did not exist. I was living in my world where muslim and Sikhs were living as a Bradari. They shared common names, they exchanged turbans and considered each other much more than real brothers. One more thing when some hoodlums from Jhang side of our village came to our village about a month after we had left, it is said that Chachi GahnooN from Murad Shah village came to plead with the leader and with her KOran Sharif in her folded hands begged the Leader who was leading the large group of people marching to our village on a horse back. This guy pushed her aside and moved on. Chachi's Koran fell on the ground and she gave him a "Badsis" and said to him "Mere Bhara Di Izat Luten ChaliaN, Allah Kare Wapis NaN Awen". This Guy got killed on that expedition. Details are not important. This story was narrated to us while we were camped near Thikri Wala Bagla some 8(?) miles from Lyall Pur. My point was that before partition people had much more cordial relations than after partition. My father went back in 1957 and he was treated royally. He spent about 2 months because a group of them kind of paraded him village to village with dinner invitations to be attended from so many villages. I am a Pendoo who did not realize that things have changed so much. Rabb Rakha and Khush Raho.


Name: shahzad maqbool - July 11, 2002
E-mail: pattokee@hotmail.com
Location: islamabad,      pakistan
Comments:   I want to tell the indians and pakistanis ,some of the aspects if war happened between them,specially i want to address extremist people of both countries,who are trying to make a fight between two countries on the name of religion read this.. According to the US Defence intelligence AGency,a nuclear war between india and pakistan could claim as many as 12 million lives,all in a matter of minutes .The staggering figure makes the total number of war casualties in more than 50 years of war and conflict in south asia look miniscule in comparison, yet,,the people of india and pakistan seem unconcerned about hte possibility of a nuclear war.Those who think nukes are simply big bombs would be wise to learn the lessons of the atomic bombing of hiroshima, where,more than 50 years later, survivors are still feeling the bomb's effects. if a nuclear weapon is used agains a major urban center in india or pr pakistna,hundreds of thousands would be immediately incinerated or crushed by falling debris. They would be the lucky ones.The true horroros of a nuclear war linger long after the initial blast wave and intesne firestorm produced by a nuclear explosion. so this is a portion of the column written by steve la montagne published in 11th july's Dare swn. so i want to tell you indian and pakistanis...that this is 21st century ..see towards other world.they are solving there problems are you are enhancing..whatever happened in past,forget and just start new .....era of relationship... it hink it will be bettet.if you want to finish the poverty in area.... that's all


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 11, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Farhat Abbas Shah is awsome too. His poetry leave very little to imagination - "direct hit", a hallmark of Punjabi poetry. I have read "Dil De Hath Mohar" on this forum and got the book. I think, some poets just click with you. I had to abandon Shiv Kumar Batalvi on the first poem that I read on this site. I am sure, he is good for those who connect with him. I just couldn't.


Name: Bali K Deol - July 11, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Oho Sameer, chup chaap sunde rehande ho, te sanu khabar tak nahi hundi! E changiaaN gallan nahi hazoor. Das te diya karo, jehre saade dil nu chaangE bahut lagde ne, ohna de naa te geet laun nu vee jee kar aunda kade kade. Samajh gaye na?

I don't spend much time near a computer these days, but rushing out in the morning I quickly stop into check whats going on at APNA forum. Speaking of Sufi's, mauj lagee payi a es vaqt, roj kaliaaN baithaal ki Salim te UStad ji hona koloN mann pasand diyaaN kalaamaaN sundi a, ene pyaare ne ki kade vee kehna nahi taaldE! Te ohna diyaaN gallaN sunke te enaa mazaa aunda, inj lagda jiveN meiN Punjab hee paunchi hoyi-aN. Once they are gone I will be sure to share all the gems I'm collecting. :-))


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 11, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Sameer,

Disagreements shouldn't stop us from discussing issues. But, I agree we should stop for the benefit of readers in general who might not find these sakeel topics of much interest. So, I will ceasefire henceforth.:)

It's kind of strange, but I like Amrita Preetam more. She rocks! I simply do not get Shiv Kumar Batalvi for some reason. To me Munir Niazi is Ghalib of Punjabi poetry. Never been inclined toward "Sufi" poetry.

Regards


Name: Sameer - July 11, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Imran Yaar, lets close this topic without any further comments from me. We can not come to any meaningful compromize. Problem is that whenever, the non-literary side of Sufis is discussed, it starts all over again. I will stay away from Sufis discussion too, promise. From now on it is Shiv Kumar Batalvi and other non-Sufi poets. Other day, Bali played Shiv Kumar's poetry in his own voice and man, he was good. Kee puchchde o hal faqeeraN da....pardesaN wich wasde sameeraN da


Name: Zahra - July 10, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Dullah Bhatti: Keep on following me on SAWF. I have to take a break from this forum due to pending engagements and work load. But I ain't vanishing from the face of earth. So, you may find me on Sawf on and off :) Allah Baili!


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 10, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Sameer,

Sikhs' retaining their Punjabi identity has more to do with their religion than anything else. Punjabi is the language of their scripture and the true Sikhs will retain it no matter where they go.

By the way, Central Asians lost their identity too, when they moved to the plains of Punjab. Losing one identity and acquiring another is a normal process and part and parcel of human existence. There is nothing to be concerned about it just as there's nothing to be proud about ethnic identities. Nothing lasts forever!

.

Regards


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 10, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

There is no "social mobility" in the abominable caste system. You remained confined to the caste you were born in. In olden days (and to some extent even today), it blocked access to production resources on the basis of supposed "genetic inferiority" depriving the society of talents that could have otherwise contributed toward its economic betterment and spiritual enlightenment. I can understand the conscious efforts on the part of few here in justifying castecism, but the fact remains that it has nothing to do with the concepts of “social mobility” and "specialization".


Name: Sameer - July 10, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Thanks Javed Zaki. I remember reading one of the book in Urdu you mentioned, several years ago in Pakistan - Pakistan MaiN Tehzib......by Sibt-e-Hassan Zaidi(?). I thinks, Chanioti Sheikhs and Parsis successes started mainly during British Raj when internal power struggle dies down due to unchallengeable overlordship of British. Few people I know from Anjuman Punjabi Saudagran-e-Delhi trace their origins in Gujranwala and other districts surrounding Lahore. What amazes me is that despite the best railroad and road links in addition to short distance between Delhi and Punjab, most of the people in this group lost contact with Punjab and most can no longer speak Punjabi language. On the other hand Sehgals and Oberoi from around Jhelum went as far as Calcutta to start their businesses and still retain their Punjabi identity. Interstingly, Punjabi Muslim migrants to Malaysia more than 100 years ago no longer retain Punjabi identity but Sikhs from the same batch of migrants and Tamils from South India do. Perhaps it has to do with ease of getting married for Muslim Punjabis with Malaysian Muslims in Malaysia.


Name: Javed Zaki - July 10, 2002
E-mail: Zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Sameer! "Chinyooti Sheikhs" is one such group from Punjab, which has elevated itself in the social mobility process. They are ranked much higher in the business community of Pakistan. Another group I can think of is "Punjabi Sodagraan-i-Dehli", who got settled in Karachi after the partition. Sorry! I am not familiar with their original caste/class background.


Name: Javed zaki - July 10, 2002
E-mail: Zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Sameer! There are few references I remember regarding the study of history from “the Political Economy’s Perspective’ in the Pakistani context. They are
1)There are various articles and few books edited and written by Hamza Alavi (this may be one of the best source including the issues of caste, class, ethnicity etc.).
2)“Caste and Class in a Punjabi Village” by Saghir Ahamd. (I think it was done in 1960’s)
3)“Pakistan meiN Tehzib ka Irtaqa” (Urdu) by Sabit-I-Hasan.
4)I read one book however long before on Pakistan’s Historical Evolution by Gonkausky (Sorry! I am not very sure of the author’s name).
5)There are various books by Indian authors in colonial context.


Name: DullaBhatti - July 09, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Zahra, have a nice vacation or whatever you are going away for. Hope it is not your earnest effort at getting away from us or leaving us alone. That would be very rude. So enjoy your days away from here.:-) I did notice a line in your last post that got me thinking. I am not sure why you said that and what is the rationale behind it. The sentence was "When you mix practices from culture, religion, dayaan, bayaan, ooper, neechae...there is no law...it's anarchy." Is it really true? do you really believe in that mumbo jumbo? and Where on earth is the opposite of that feasible? If you are still around please elaborate on that..if not, may be next time.


Name: Zahra - July 09, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   While I am away and plan on being away for somewhile, I wanted to jot down a few thoughts on this forum.

Something occured to me that I did not address

After I submitted my brief bye bye note, I suddenly felt something. It just struck me that if this forum is well routed on discussing an issue, the participants can assist in even suggesting measures for the improvement of the society. In other words, as a vocal crictic in the past, I just felt immense energy, alertness and devotion emitting from this forum in addressing the problem and recommending solutions. This was beautiful!!! It was very nice and kind and sweet!

Also, the level of poets and their poetry is becoming superb. I think APNA should have a repository for fil'badee poems. Just a suggestion! Even some of the new discoveries are impressive :)

Javed Zaki: This is for you. I am not an authority on a subject, but I feel that you do justice to your emotions and feelings in verses than in words. Often times when you come up with your analysis, you are too distant and do not come across as if you are addressing human issues. Your words appear as if they are being penned for a thesis that will be graded for its discoveries and contents than conveying the compassion and emotions. I did not need to delve into so much detail, but I do realize I have not been very responsive to your previous posts and there was something that was bothering me there and I could not point it out. Now, I could. So, here was my little rationale :). Hope you will read that in a constructive stride. On another note, that can be the maturity of expression. I am not sure. It can be.

Bushra: Mujhae last remark sumujh main naheen aya. What was unreserved in that? I did not get it. I never plan to write on a subject/topic. I often write in the heat of the moment; and that's it. On the other end, you have addressed quite a few details which are worth questioning, but due to the unfair treatments right and left they were not addressed. Your perspective on individualism strikes a chord. I always find that a rude awakening for people from our origin. Good Points!

Some others have gone into the psyche of Gujjars and their aba'o'ajdaad. Point is, when you have human rights' issues at hand, raising this aspect is absurd. Indeed, it was a good history lesson, but this should not happen in an islamic country. Whether we are on and off the track that's another thing. When you mix practices from culture, religion, dayaan, bayaan, ooper, neechae...there is no law...it's anarchy. But then some participants are obligated to educate many of us on the family trees of various castes in Pakistan. And that is a very interesting as well as informative route. Somehow, that should not be part of any of our policies for justice and decision making. That's my point.


Name: Shikra - July 09, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   BYE SHAHZAD!!!!!!!!!!!!


Name: Sameer - July 09, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Javed Zaki: I agree that socio-economic factors contribute a great deal for thorough understanding of history. Could you please recommend some books which deal in detail with the socio-economic conditions in Punjab through ages, or something like Peoples' History of Punjab (similar to Howard Zinn and other left-of-center scholars writings, "A Peoples History of USA") or A Study of History of Punjab in Arnold Toybbee's style. Somehow most commonly known is the chronology of power struggle and barring any additional information, we often rely much too heavily on such sources.

My guess is that in the past a community surpassing in economic terms from rest without political power was almost absent (except Pheonicians). Now German, Japanese, Indians, Chinese, Jews and Parsis have produced successful communnities in different parts of the world without political power. Were there any successful tribes or off-shoots in Punjab who performed better than average and helped themselves in elevating caste or social status?


Name: shahzad maqbool - July 09, 2002
E-mail: pattokee@hotmail.com
Location: islamabad,      pakistan
Comments:   Today i'll like to comment on the Apna discusion forum,what is happenign on this forum ,you people are quareling with one another....why do you discuss conflicting topics..this forum is for love,for good discussion,for positive,but what is happening ,i think i should not come on it again,bye


Name: Zahra - July 09, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   ~Alif Allah Chanbae' Dee Booti, Maerae Mun Vich Murshid Layee Hoo.
As I opened the first page of a poetry book that I got as a present, the above were the verses on the first page after the brief introduction to Hazrat Sultan Bahoo(RE). I am reminded of little me(at age 7-9), in my forefather's daf'tur, flipping through the heavy books that I could not understand. I say heavy as they were heavy in their contents and not necessarily in the volume. I would always glance through them when Abu was not around. My father was very possessive about this very cute squarish book in beautiful colors and main bold white header saying, Sultan Bahoo. All the more reason, if he was possessive about a book or a concept, I will taa'qub karo-fy to find the asraar'o'ramooz behind those concepts. Sometimes that taa'qub was not necessarily delving into the details, it just settled in my heart as love or attachment for those concepts. I just wanted to learn all those concepts of wisdom, lyrical ballads, and poetical expressions as soon as I could... The nice words looked so sweet on the colored pages and appeared so neat and well settled that I wished to flip each page and be able to understand the context of all the thoughts. Abu being a very farsighted person kept these books away from me. I think he had some feeling that I may have a strong leaning towards them. Here I am, with these verses again after at least 2 decades. I guess now the verses are following me with an expression saying, sumjho humain...socho...phir sumjho...doa'bara socho...Too much to understand :) Too much to learn :( Too much to retain (~.~) Where should one draw a line? And then on top of it, John C.Maxwell says in "Your Roadmap for Success Workbook" that sucess is a journey and not a destination. Ok...!


Name: Zahra - July 09, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Saeed Farani: Thanks for the Tea-Leaves. Now, I will have frequent questions from the book of Kee-Janaan Main Koan Bullea' :) Looking forward to your kitab'chaa. Thanks again for your kindness. Best Regards!


Name: Javed Zaki - July 08, 2002
E-mail: Zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Sameer Ji! History just a chronological narration of historical facts is a very weak methodology. The evolution of history (OR a historical event) needs to be interpreted in its socio-economic context. The demographic strength of a caste/class does not automatically determine its rank in the power structure of a society (the caste system, like a class system, does refer to a power structure). The hierarchical placement of a caste OR a class (generally speaking, both tend to overlap) has been found to be in direct relation to its access to the resources of production of a society. An indirect reference was made in this regard, when Gujjars’ defeat by others was described as the major determinant of their lower ranking in the caste system. But, to me, it is not a sufficient reasoning.


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - July 08, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   For Apna Friends:

UmraaN touN haaN pardesi

AakhhiyaaN wich Aathroo
BulliaN uttay haaNwaaN
YadaaN naiN kay ChaRhiaN
Sawan dee ghataNwaaN
LungiaN HoyaaN gahRiaN
KeywaiN dil touN bhulaNwaaN
UmraaN touN haaN pardesi
KeywaiN watnaaN nouN jaNwaaN

NaaN raah koee sujh di aay
NaaN souch pay rujh di aay
NaaN dil payaa mann da aay
Naa taang pay bujh di aay
NaaN dil parchaawan di
Koee khoj pay khhujh di aay
Door diyaaN kundaaN naiN
MaiN kiss tarha dhaNwaaN
UmraaN touN haaN pardesi
KeywaiN watnaaN nouN jaNwaaN

SajnaaN diyaaN gundaaN sun
Rishtay diyaaN pundaaN sun
MetthiaN jevaiN khhandaaN sun
SeenaiN diyaaN tthandaaN sun
JanouN wee tay kinnay sun
MabbtaaN diyaaN wandaaN sun
Bujhdi hoee laataaN di
KeywaiN jott jagaNwaaN
UmraaN touN haaN pardesi
KeywaiN watnaaN nouN jaNwaaN

Apna tay oohi gahr way
SouchaaN da oo mahwar way
YadaaN da samundar way
Kee hunn jay oo khhundar way
DehgiyaaN hoyaaN kundaaN naiN
Tuttayaa hoyaa her dar way
UjRay hoay maazi nouN
KeywaiN muR kay wasaNwaaN
UmraaN touN haaN pardesi
KeywaiN watnaaN nouN jaNwaaN


Name: Alishay - July 08, 2002
E-mail: alishah_agha@yahoo.com
Location: Islamabad,      Pakistan
Comments:   It is my first entery in this forum. Punjabi poetry in Pakistan has 2 catagories : Sufi Poetry : New poets discuss so many dimensions. I always read and stress on the Idea which is present in the writing. Literature and poetry are the 2 strong dimensions if a person seriously and keenly involve then we can see it effects our lives, i often observe it. But unfortunately now a days as a fashion we buy books and arrange these books in beautiful book-shelfs. So how this writing can be effected untill our inner is not clear. Just once try to listen INSIDE. ALISHAY


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 08, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Sameer,

I agree, the topic under discussion may not be of particular interest to majority of the readers. But then again, I have found this forum to be lacking participation in general. There are very few individuals who care to write here. Most of the times it's "fyis" regarding Punjabi entertainment aspect targetted at select audience. Anyway, in order to avoid religious debate, certain patients who seem to be inflicted with "auto immune" disease will have to stop bashing a particular religion.

Regards


Name: Sameer - July 07, 2002
E-mail: jnsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   I suppose all have taken the weekend off or the current topic under discussion is a turn off for most. Let me switch to something else.

In the gang-rape episode, notice the victim belongs to a lower order tribe, called Gujjar. This was a news to me. However, based on little knowledge it is not unexpected or surprising. Gujjars are generally believed to have originated from an earlier Scythian migration of a turkic-western Asian tribe, called Khazars, from areas around modern day lower Ukrain or Kerimia. Interstingly one of the branch of Khazars converted to Judaism around 11-12th century and migrated westward to Russia, Poland and Germany. According to Arnold Koestler (in his famous book, "The Thirteenth Tribs"), most of the Askenazi Jews are descendants of Khazar converts.

Anyway, Scythian Khazars came to India through Afghanistan before later Scythian and Huns migrations giving rise to Jat and Rajput tribes. Once Khazars or later called Gujjars (although some believe the word Gujjar came from Gao meaning cattle and char meanig herding) ruled most of northwest India from their capital around modern day Peshawar (NWFP) under the name of Kushan dynasty producing the second famous Buddhist (Ashoka being the first) ruler named Kanishk or Kanishka. Places like Hazara (originally Khazara), Gujrat, Gujranwala and Gojra suggest that not only these were Gujjar settlements but that Gujjars were not considered low caste in these areas. Actually moving from north to south from Swat, Dir in the northern Pakistan to Hazara to Punjab and down to Meerwala where the gang-rape incident happened, the status of Gujjars starts declining as one moves away from their once capital, Peshawar. Almost in the middle, in the city of Gujrat, they have reasonable clout against jats. Further south their status declines.

Remember in a recent discussion about caste system in Punjab, I opined in favor of weaker or fluid caste system prevailing by the time Muslims arrived on the scene. Gujjars were accommodated differently at different places according to their strength, like every other tribe. There was no rigid caste system to give Gujjats same upper or lower caste status all across northwestern India. Tribes fought their way to achieve higher caste, often through forging alliance. Punjab politics is still being played through alliances of various tribes.

By the way, Gujjars in Punjab are generally considered the third or fourth largest tribe behind Jats, Rajputs and sometimes before or after AraiNs.


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 06, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Sameer,

Thanks for clarifying that. I am glad that you agree on faraiz part. They are integral part of Islam and you cannot have one without the other. Now as far as some of the peripheral issues are concerned like growing beard etc., there is indeed choice there. You are not obligated to follow them. Actually, that's sort of a far cry considering that nobody can force down even faraiz down your throat. There is no compulsion in religion. Less said about so-called "Islamists" and "Jihadis" the better.

I would disagree with your assertion that practicing "nahi an'il munkir brought down WTC". How can a band of Munkirs (suicide bombers and their abettors) practice a concept like nahi an'il munkir. Personal grudges, lust for power, and down right evil brought down WTC.

Also a Muslim cannot and shouldn't have personal or private reservations about praying, fasting, and giving alms. And if one does, well, then assi us bhainR bhra waste dua ae kar sakde waaN. Maula ee onhaaN te rehm farmawe. The part of me says that they would be better off with other countless religious ideologies that lack the deen part or perhaps ethieism would be a more fit for their tastes.

My personal preference is man-made laws, because, implementation of Islamic laws has pre-requisites which are lacking in today’s societies due to changed dynamics. In modern societies where marriages are delayed due to societal pressures like pressure to succeed in a career, lack of financial security etc. you really cannot apply "Hudood laws". While Islam prescribes strict punishments, which are more of detterent then anything else, it does so by taking bodily needs of humans into account. Top that off with lack of Khuf-e-Khuda amongst abusers of these laws and it would be better if these weren't applied in the present state. I hope, I am making sense.

Regards


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - July 06, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   I agree with Kahlon Saab. It is the issue of Oppressor and the Oppressed. The rest of the colors are from our own visions. The religion has nothing to do with it. The law of the land is weak or have become weak in the hands of few. It simply does not help the oppressed. The money buys everything. There are many similar cases which were not surfaced due to one reason or the other. This case, if the pressure is maintained at all levels may get punishment to Oppressors. Another similar case is surfaced at Hyderabad Sindh too............so the evils are at work anyway....No matter what is the outcome of meerwali incident.


Name: P S Kahlon - July 06, 2002
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Comments:   Through out the history the powerful ( Oppressor) has used all means available (social, political,physical, religious etc) to keep their hold on the powerless (oppressed). AS Sameer Ji mentiond ,that we need to first recognize that the problem exists. You can shift the blame and deny and hope that the oppressed will stay where they are. But the sad fact is that it is not easy to give up power. It takes courage to side with the oppressed/exploited. Time will come when a MARD KA CHELLA/CHELLI AWSI and say enough is enough.


Name: Sameer - July 06, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Imran: To me, farz are in included in spirituality part of religion. I was specifically pointing to deen (using this term for lack of coming up an exact english term that defines an aggregation of extensive and detailed moral and ethical codes and Islamic laws scuh as banking, huddod and so on. I thought about using dogmatic or doctrinal but did not think them as exact translation of deen). I mean, come on, eating with right hand, bath room ethics, ethics in bed, length of desired or undesired hair and so on. On top of that, I meant to really include the concept of "amr bil maroof wa nahi an'il monkir". The Islamists are obsessed with amr bil maroof (what should be followed as per Islam) part and Islamic Fundamentalists and jihadis so obsessed with nahi an'il munkir (what should be opposed as per Islam) part that they will go to any length, without regard to any law of any nation, to oppose. It puts them basically in opposition to rest of the world. It leads to frustration because rest of the world is more powerful than them. The frustration spills over to even those who are believing or practicing Muslims without too much nahi an'il munkir. Whole society suffers as a result.

This was the gist of Bushra Khan's post and my follow up. The belief part of faith as well as praying, fasting, giving alms etc were not challenged by her or by me although we may have personal/ private reservations about practices. The praying and fasting does not bring down WTC Towers, practicing nahi an'il munkir did.

Cultures evolve under various, geographical, social, political and economical realities. Sometime marketing-propaganda-promotions-commercialism helps as it is helping western culture lately - becoming fashionable. Islam has a free hand in mostly Islmaic socities like Pakistan and with it comes deen part. Since deen influences practical life, it is subject to rational and logical analysis. Similarly the gangrape and stoning to death cases represent bad practical side of culture and deen and must be dealt with absolute unbiased rationality. I detest them whether they are part of Punjabi or Balochi culture or any deen.

Nothing is eternally good or bad. History is full of examples of things starting bad and becoming good as well as starting-good-turning-bad. The dynamics with respect to time and place demand constant scrutinizing processes for all areas effecting human life. Humans have the potential to turn a good into bad and vice versa. However if bad is not considered bad for whatever reasons, the chances of turning it into good diminsh. We can not slove a problem without first accepting it a problem.


Name: Shikra - July 06, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Why all the hoo haa about this rape case? is everyone naive enough to assume that this is an isolated case. These atrocities happen every day in these countries where the rich can buy out and silence anyone they choose. Sadly there is a good chance that these animals will get away with or be given trivial sentences for their hideous acts. I respect the family for reporting the case in the first place because most families would have stayed silent rather than facing the shame and humiliation that their community would have hurled at them.


Name: Shikra - July 06, 2002
E-mail: Prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Imran: you are right when you say not all arabs are civilised, in fact they are far from it. Their strict laws are set for the poor and under privelaged. true their women are not paraded naked in bazaars but they the the first to pay for women from other regions to fulfill their own lust. So much for women having rights, when one can be just one of several dozen married to the same man and used like an object whenever he so desires. I was in dubai a few years ago and I saw rich arabs shopping for alcohol by the trolley full in the airport shops. Money overules every law, and that includes strict islamic laws.


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 06, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Saeed Farani

You asked am I from Mecca? I consider the planet earth my home and Mecca is not on Mars, last time I checked. I don't take false pride in regional and tribal indentities. Nobody ever answered a genuine question raised by another writer: what is there to be proud of?

Not all Arabs are civilised just as not all sub-continentals are animals (though, majority of us seem to be falling in this category). I have nothing but pleasent experiences with Arabs from my interaction with them in School here in the US. I found them to be no less civilised than an American. They never adressed me without prefixing our names with brother and were always cordial toward Pakistani students.

Regards


Name: shahzad maqbool - July 06, 2002
E-mail: pattokee@hotmail.com
Location: islamabad,      pakistan
Comments:   Thanks Sameer tooo much that any body responded me....yaar and i am too much thankful to you......and tell me at which time should i come at apnaorg and at which time should i post comments......?and i am thankful to you........? for responding....


Name: Saeed Farani - July 06, 2002
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Comments:   Imran Ahmad, you are taking the wrong meanings of my posts. You blame and say that these all the bad events happening here due to the "rotten subcontinental mindset." Do you belong to Mecca that you put every bad thing to this mindset. What about the arabs mindset? Did they have any lesson from the teachings of Quran till today? Can you call them civilised and examplery people. It is not the case my dear, what I want to write in my post and in future just want to stop discussing on this topic because I don't wish that mad hounds would be provoked by the people like you and mera dhidh cheerya paRya hovey. I finish my post by saying that "we, being muslims, are focusing our all the energies much on those religious affairs which have no effect in our, according to you, rotten subcontinental mindset, whereas the affairs which the very first should be addressed are completely neglected. Let me quote here the ashlok of Baba Nanak (sorry from Sikh friends if I wrote the ashlok wrong): Panj namajaaN, punjey welay, punj punjey punj jaaye, pehla sach (first truth), hilal doojey (second Hilal), teejee kher Khudae (wellfare of humanity I mean the concept of heya alal falah, heya alal salah), chHothi neeat raas man (inner purity), punjveeN sift sanay (fifth number is praise and worshiping God). This order is wonderful and should be practicable. IF the first four are missing and all the time we put DHANDORA on the fifth one that is the result of todays miseries in the muslim societies. According to Dr. Iqbal, Namazo roza-o qurbani-o Hajj, ye sab baqi heN too baqi naheeN he. Rab rakha.


Name: Saeed Farani - July 06, 2002
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Comments:   Imran Ahmed,I simply ask you a question: Tell me if there is no trafic constable in the chowk how many people care about their turn to pass? Come to Fawara Chowk in Raja Bazar of Rawalpindi and watch this mess. I mean that law and order is more needed as compare to Khauf-e-Khuda. Ref: When they (four brothers) were rapping the Hafiz Quran girl (for me she is more important as simple human being girl) the father of the girl was begging forgiveness in the feet of those basterds and was asking them, "Rabb tey Rasool de waste, Quran de waste, eh ziyadati na karo, eh zulam na karo." Such begging requests were turned down under the feet by them. Now question arises: Did we need preachings of Islam or jihad against kafirs and should we preach this religion to others whereas our own social disorder is at this very NEECH level? Mullahs (old allies of USA against communist block) were preaching jihad at the time of Zia-ul-Yaq but they could not preach such jihad for their inner selves? Today, there is a news in the daily Jang that one man is stoned to death becuase he disrespected Quran. Many hundreds people stoned him and finally he died. Such GHUSSA and unity you would not see in other cases that if all the mighty people here disrespect against the laws of Quran or Islam. (don't take it negative that I am favouring that fool person who disrespected poor Quran) but I want to explain that the TEECHAAs (points of attack) are many more imortant and others where people should attack, I mean, if the corrupt civil and military servents, traders, factory owners, distributers, medicine sellers, doctors, mullahs, pirs, waderas, muhafiz so openly disregad and disrespect the teachings of Quran that they are spared because they don't torn out the papers of Quran it seems funny. So in short my argument is not against Islam or Quran it is just a matter of understanding that forces of Islam or jihad should be turned against such criminals who have made this land hell( I will never say it the holy land, because I believe that only those lands are holy if you find there justice and respect of human beings.)My appeal to all the people like you who love to preach Islam is that they should start a jihad against religious intolerances, differece between haves and haves-not, illiteracy, and corruption. I request you to convey my message to all the so-called jihadis as u seem very active person.


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 05, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Sameer,

It's about time government brought religious schools into mainstream by providing them funds and regulating them instead of charity "oil money" that's been flowing in often with strings attached. I am not sure if they can be subjected to taxation, as they donot generate any revenues. There will always be people who would like their childern to have religious education. I think it's only fair that they should be given an opportunity to impart whatever education they choose for their childern. Religious schools exist all over the world and even in the US a lot of parents prefer sending their childern to religious schools. The recent decision of the GOP to mandate secular curriculum is a step in the right direction and was overdue. Now the childern will have an option of joining mainstream job market if they wish so.

Our views on culture vs. religion will never converge. I beleive, the spirtual part of Islam is meaningless without the "faraiz". It has mandated certain rituals, if you will, that must be performed and certain things that must be avoided. If we lack the faraiz part, there is nothing to be proud of and we should try to mend our ways. Also, I beleive the cultrual practices that come into conflict with the religion must be bid farewell. There is nothing Arab about Namaz, Roza, Haj, Zakat etc. They would still have been the same had the holy prophet (pbuh) been from our part of the world.

I don't consider myself thekedar of Islam, as I am myself lacking in practise part, unfortunately. But, I try to interject whenever I see mischief on the part of individuals who might have rediscovered their pagan roots, which is fine. But they should leave Islam alone and revert back to their ancestors' religion. That way they would be at peace with themselves and those of us who want to follow Islam with all it's "faults" will be too. There is no compulsion in religion.

Americans didn't blame Islam for the tragedy of "911". I think certain individuals on this forum could learn from this...


Name: Sameer - July 05, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Shahzad Maqbool: Let me add to DB's comments on your comment that nobody comments on your comments. It is not always joyful experience to get responses. Sometime they are very crtitical of you. If you do not believe, ask DB about what kind of responses I get at another site. Badshaho, es khaid ich juttiaN wee buhtiaN paindiaN naiN. Te fer Punjabi khoon ublan lag painda ae. shuk'r karo ke aithe APNAorg te log ik doje dee izzat karde naiN.

Doojee gal eh key tusi koi nau ghaintey agge ho. Jais vailee tusi post karde ho, issi sarey suttey honde aan te agle din shaam kum to wapus aan tak tuhade comments pichche reh jande naiN.

Okay what is your take on Musharraf? Jaan chaddhe ga keh naheeN? Benazir has met Nawaz Sharif in Jeddah. do you think BB will win next elections, if held and held fairly?

Imran: Pakistani government yesterday announced 2.15 billion rupees for madrassahs. What are we getting out of it? Isn't madrassah a private business subject to reporting income and paying tax? Second point is that both Islam and culture are too big words to blame anything or given credit. One has to break them down as reductionism or deductionism to analyse their impact. Both of these have several components. For religion, spiritual must be analyzed separately than practical often referred as deen. The sub-components of deen part are the ones some people object to because many of these Islamic laws and traditions are later additions, extrapolations, guess work, bias in favor of nomadic Arab culture and so on. I believe Quran asks hundreds of times about prayers and how often it asks about alcohol consumption, stoning to death and so on? All aspects of deen are not equally important, and their practicality must be judged on the basis of practical considerations. The much more important spiritual aspects are to be judged on spiritual basis. This is just my opinion. The passion for defending religion must be proportional to the importance of the case. Why spend 10,000 dollars to defend a traffic violation ticket? But there are people who would get very angry by just noticing you eating with left hand? Similarly without exonerating culprits at all, the Muslim response to the destruction of a run down and locked-for-years mosque was disproportional. Relgious sensivities is one thing and wearing it on sleeves another. The spiritual part of religion is acceptable as above culture but cultural part of deen has to compete against indigenous culture. Personally I put Punjabi above nomadic Arab culture. Not that I am disrespectful of that or any other culture, it is simply accepting the cards nature has dealt to me - being born into Punjabi culture.


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 05, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Saeed Farani,

I would reiterate my stance that it's rotten sub-continental mindset and not the Islam that's resonsible for the mess we are in. Otherwise, Islam touches billion of lives in a positive manner daily. Lay the blame where it belongs - rotten sub-continental mindset that's immune to it's positive teachings.

Now, what is "theocratic" about Pakistani education system, general zia's gimmicks of making Islamiyat lazmi not withstanding? Is it Islam's fault too that our secular education system is producing corrupt individuals in every walk of life? Last time I checked, fraction of Medrassah educated are not yet qualified to hold mainstream jobs. Please elaborate.

Regards


Name: Javed Zaki - July 05, 2002
E-mail: Zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Sameer! THANK YOU VERY MUCH.


Name: DullaBhatti - July 05, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Another sick aspect of the story is that Govt., instead of aprehending the criminals and their backers, is trying to silent the girl's family by paying them money. Govt. gave 50,0000 rs. to the family. What does that mean? it is the same old game of silencing the victims with force or money. Govt. is full partner in it.

Maqbool, keep talking man...we address to every post here..that does not mean people hate you. It is just the way forum is. Don't give up so easily.


Name: shahzad maqbool - July 05, 2002
E-mail: pattokee@hotmail.com
Location: islamabad,      pakistan
Comments:   i want to say here that whenver i posted comments at this forum ,no body commented on my comments menas you people didn't take part in discussion with me...also sometimes you didn't posted my comments,that's why i am thinking not to come on this forum....next time... mayoooos ker dita way


Name: Saeed Farani - July 05, 2002
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Comments:   Dear Bushra, I firmly agree with the points u raised in your e. Actually, nothing is in order here so such incidents happen very often here. A very few come in the public media otherwise most of the incidents are just ignored. It is very unfortunate situation that we could not build even simple foundations of humanity. It is fact that the religious teachings ( good or bad but whatever they are) put very much negative effect on the muslim males. It is pity that women here are always under threat from their fellow (in the eye of nature they are fellow human beings) male members. In the offices, in the streets and even in their own houses they are attacked. And when there is no law and order situation prevailing in a country like us such painful and full of brutality incidents become a routine matter. It is pity that every male member of or society wants to sleep with two and half billion women of the world. Their sexual hunger is so much provoked that the only meaning of women in thier minds is a doll in the bed. We, male muslims, watch women with hungry eyes. It is sickness or something basically wrong with us. We are hypocrate in our day to day life. We are badly immuned and we love to wear green CHOGA XXXXXXXXXX. Mian MOhammad Bakhash said, NeechaaN dee ashnaee koloN phal kise naeeN paya. SO we are basically neech in our nature. There are many causes of this sickness. Probably Dr. Javaid Zaki will explain them. But the main cause of economic exploitaion. Then these guards ( rakhey or chowkidar or so called muhafiz) themselves either become LUTAIRAS or they just get their share from those bastereds. The very basic thing which is needed here is the revolution in basic education with an nontheocratic ideology based on only humanity in which women could be considered simply human beings.


Name: Sameer - July 04, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Javed Zaki: I just retrieved the link from BBC archives. It is:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_2089000/2089624.stm


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 04, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

MTM,

Fully agree with you. And also, women need to some introspection and accept their responsibility. It's often women who discriminate against their own kind.


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - July 04, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   Bushra Ji: To bring the stated change, a hell of work is required. A task for which another century is needed, I believe. One thing is certain that words will not bring that change but the true effort will. best regards


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 04, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Dr. Zaki,

If we, the Pakistanis, had learned to analyse thing objectively, then we wouldn't be in such a mess that we find ourselves in. I respect Bushar's point of view, but I think she is unneccessarily attacking Islam. Islam has nothing to do rotten customs of not too long ago a Pagan sub-continental society. There are countless women even in the so-called emanicipated societies like Turkey who seek refuge in Islam and wouldn't want any other way. Wannabe feminists need to respect their point of view while demanding their rights.

Regards


Name: javed zaki - July 04, 2002
E-mail: Zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Sameer Ji! I tried but could not search the photo of the girl.


Name: Javed Zaki - July 04, 2002
E-mail: Zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Mitro ik naviN nazm haazar e.

.......SadhraaN Da Mull BharsaaN.......

Munn mansoor theye mera loko
AkhaaN raNgle sufne
Bukkal bhar bhar taa sooraj da
Malna apne jusse
Ratt aNg sarir na busse

SadhraaN da mull bharsaaN bhaNviN
Tapp vaile da loohe
Ander wassooN sehra thive
Zehr kaRhe bhaNviN roohe
JiNd kalboot da saanga tutte
Sulgan baariaaN boohe
DhooR udde tann joohe
...SadhraaN da mull bharsaaN loko
...SadhraaN da mull bharsaaN


Name: javed Zaki - July 04, 2002
E-mail: Zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Bushra Ji! I agree with you 100 percent on your bold but objective analysis of the gender discrimination in a society like Pakistan. Please keep sharing your ideas.


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 04, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Another fact that's being overlooked is: according to some reports, the woman that her brother was "caught" was some 30 years old. If that's the case then, this child abuse and should be treated as such, as the boy is a minor. No consentious sex there.


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - July 04, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   Bali Ji: Accept my congratulations ......I would love to read and listen the song..........best regards


Name: Bushra Khan - July 04, 2002
E-mail: khanbushra@hotmail.com
Location: New York,      USA
Comments:   All Readers: The heinous crime of gang rape of an innocent girl to revenge the ‘love crime’ of her brother is discussed by many here – without even trying to look into the real causes. your anger is right but your failure to understand the underlying causes is telling. let us start from the beginning. a young boy and girl are caught in a ‘compromising situation’ – this is what started the chain of events that ended so shamefully. what should have been the right thing to do? Murder the girl – honor killing? Beat both girl and boy’s brains out? What? And Why? Why such uproar, such revengeful punishments? Why?

Only because, in our society, in our religion – women, girls – are considered a property of a family. We have placed the burden of sharam and heya on them. We have designated them the role of a mother and a sister. Our ideal girl is the one who never raises her voice, shows no signs of any kind of independence from whatever a male dominated society and religion has decided for her. They have no independent identity as a person. They are the property of the whole Ummah. We keep them covered in purdah. Even when we need them to go out and work or study, we expect them to keep their heads and other attractive parts of their bodies covered. We do not allow them to mix with men or boys. Half of Islam’s criminal laws is designed to keep the men and women in separate circles in the society. Chaddar and Chaardeewari are our ideals. They are not just women. They are ‘our’ women from a man’s point of view. No one can look at them, no one can touch them. No one can dare to come close to them – without men’s permission who own them – their fathers, brothers husbands.

In a society based on this idea of men as owners and protectors of women – there will always be these problems – not always leading to a gang rape or honor killing – but lesser and different atrocities. Our lives, women’s live, in a society ruled by religious principles and as a result by men will always be a story full of atrocities, form birth to death. As long as women have a secondary role in society, one dominated by men, this will continue. This concept of sharam and heya is just a form of slavery – women are slaves of this concept – and live all their lives in fear for this. In all Islamic and other religiously society women are slaves of men. When they overstep – are caught with a boy – the who family, caste, tribe is put to shame. Then there is no limit to anger. In the old days, when Islamic society was more pure, the couple was put to death by stoning by their neighbors. Their crime is never their own shame. It is the shame of their families and extended families who own them and of the whole society of whole ummah.

Unless women get equal – I mean EQUAL – rights. Unless they have the same freedoms, the same status that men have – their problems cannot be solved. An outdated moral code, an outdated religious code, an outdated family code and outdated social laws are ruling women’s lives. We are shocked by the public humility of a girl – but trust me – majority of the girls in Islamic society have to bear thousands of humilities – big and small – all their lives. We all keep quite on these – because we have accepted it. We are only shocked by what makes headlines. As long as we will only and only accept women as sisters, mothers or daughters – and will not recognize them as individuals, and give them same individual right sand freedoms that are given to men – they will always be a problem for the society.

P.S. Zahra: I have talked about women in general in Islamic societies. There are always exceptions of educated liberal families and women. I was delighted by your unreserved anger. Bravo.


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - July 04, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   ...............Mod. pls delete my first post......thanks

Imran Ji: I accept my mistake and will try to correct it. Thanks for reminding me of this.

Hereunder is a poem on another topic of concern. For everyone's reading:

MahNgayee Day Maray Log
Jeewan Kinj Wacharay Log
Tid NouN Kaj Kaj Haray Log
KewaiN Karan Guzaray Log

KenouN Jaa Kay Ke Ke Kahn
MuNh Chuk Chuk Kay Ronday Rayn
Koe Nai Sunda Aithay Wayn
Kis TouN Mungan KethouN Layn

Labday Phhiran Sahary Log
KewaiN Karan Guzaray Log

Lubda Nai Koe Kum Kissay NouN
Lub Safarish Thhum Kissay NouN
KhudkashiaN Pay Kar Kar Marday
Honda Nai Koe Ghum Kissay NouN

KakhhaaN TouN Nai Bharay Log
KewaiN Karan Guzaray Log

Kissay Day Koul Nai Lakh KaRoR
Kissay NouN Lagay Rahn MaRoR
Rabba Sub NouN Day Daynda TouN
Teray Koul See Kahdee ThhoR

MuNh Chuk Waykhann Taray Log
KewaiN Karan Guzaray Log

Sir Kajjan Tay Nangay Payr
Rabb TouN MaNgday Saray Khair
Oohi Karam Karay Tay Mukkay
Aay Dukh Dard Di Zard Dupayr

Dainday Roz Pukaray Log
KewaiN Karan Guzaray Log


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 04, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

MTM,

With all due respect, we can always find ample excuses for apathy. Yes, we are all hypocrites at some level. But, God has yet to design a perfect human being. I would rather focus on small successes than failures. The recent relase of the woman booked under "Hudood ordinance" speaks volume of what international pressures can contribute towards human rights.

I hate to put you on spot. But, would you kind enought of shed some light on your perspective of "Kammi". I have read this offensive word in your peotry to, which I happen to admire, poetry i.e. It pains me to come across such offensive word in the vocabulary of an elightened and sensitive individuals as yourself and that too a Muslim brother. Please explain!

Best Regards


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - July 04, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   Imran Ji: Yes, Overseas Pakistanis can make a difference BUT they real question is will they make the difference? The true answer is NO They will NOT.
if you remember the molvis got burned alive the hafiz-e-quran in gujranwala few years back and had not allowed his family to buried him there. lately it was proved that they were wrong. Now you tell me how this time they have shown there helplessness? All are hypocrites including me.
best regards


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - July 04, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   ZJ: I agree with your post but would like to say that what I wrote as me is not me but as a society. Until there are people above the law, no one can stop this kind of shameful events. How one can expect the protection by the Police who has taken bribe to release the eleven year old boy? It is really sad and the sad thing is that people will forget after sometime. The sufferers will suffer ONLY.


Name: Bali K Deol - July 04, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   I wasn't able to read the story until today, and after initial disbelief, followed by shame and disgust, my first thoughts too were, not only of the victim, but what was happening to the criminal low lifes that perpetrated this violence. That they should be allowed to live for even one second in society is beyond belief. At the very least they deserve life imprisonment. I feel sick to my stomach.

Dullabhatti ji, I'm glad you enjoyed the show, I enjoyed their company emmensly after the show. Gursharan ji pata nahi tusi suneya hove jaaN nahi, lekin Ustaad ji ne towanu swagaat keeta see. I know of you will appreciate the enorminty of what I am going to tell you. Last week I wrote my first Punjabi kavta...Puranshah Koti sunde sunde ro paarE, and they asked me if I would allow them to sing it, and to record it. As you can imagine I am quite simply blown away. He is quite serious, he asked me for it again last night. Sameer ji towada dil na rakhaaN eh kiven ho sakdi E.

Chalo after getting in at 5am I can't write anymore, although after reading all the posts from yesterday, I share everyones pain.


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 04, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

MTM,

I would disagree with the notion that we cannot do anything. Overseas Pakistanis can make a difference by providing full support to those noble souls putting up a fight against gross injustices on hostile grounds. We are not that helpless in this interconnected world, as we might think. The GOP should be pressured to improve the enforcement of law and order in the country and make necessary amendments to protect the vulnerable of the society.

Will punishing the culprit’s stop these monstrosities from reoccurring? Perhaps not, but regardless, it’s the state's responsibility to ensure swift justice whenever transgressions of basic human rights like these take place. Otherwise, there is no need for a sham state where justice is applied on selective basis to exist. That said.

I think, women themselves have a central role in eradicating some of social ills that plague us. That role cannot be fulfilled by carrying a gun, but rather by mental conditioning of the young in the cradle to dispel wrong notions regarding “honor”, “revenge”, and male’s attitude toward tender gender rather than reinforcing discriminatory treatment and evil customs. This battle will have to be fought by all and sundry (family as a unit, church, and state!) if positive change is to place.

Regards


Name: Zahra - July 04, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Have a nice time all. I will be away for sometime. You can heave a sigh of relief and continue with your non-serious stuff. It will be a good booster.
Take Care All.


Name: Zahra - July 04, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   MTM: Empathy and pathos is one thing. At this time, this girl needs none. She has gone through enough humiliation. You guys are just getting carried away. She needs something else. She has to have the law and order on her side. A screwed up state like Pakistan, with equally screwed up rulers, has many to cry and mourn; but there are very few to stand up and say that you need to include a clause in your charter which provides protection to women, and ONLY WOMEN!

Men do not provide protection to women. Men, being ordinary creatures of God are not capable to provide protection to women! People should get over this fallacy. Men are only simple ordinary creatures of god just like women are. God is the only protector. Ok! Just wanted to spell it out as many are on another planet here. The gender inconsistencies have caused many mental diseases in this society.

Had this female carried a gun, do you think she would have been in those shoes where she is right now. Nope.

All this religious sham and uproar in this country is plain rubbish. In a so-called islamic state, the jamaa't should have been out on the streets to raise their voice against this atrocity. But they didn't. And they won't. In a country, where these practices are prevalent and are let go of, humans have no right and reason to live and breathe. Animals should take over and let the animals rule the animals. Qissaa' Khat'um!


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - July 04, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   Sameer Ji: thanks for the link.......


Name: Sameer - July 04, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   MTM: The details of this story are even more gory. The girl is a hafiz quran and was teaching quran to other girls. Parents did not hand over their daughter to be raped, she was asked to appear before punchayat. Please read the details at:

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/jul2002-daily/04-07-2002/oped/o5.htm


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - July 04, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   Suniaa see eztaaN sub diaaN saanjhiaN hondiaN naiN lakin jadouN we vekhayaa aay mainu tay ahday wich kadi koe saanjh nazar naiN aayee. Apni ezzat tay naaN layee dujiaN di pagg rolna, unhaaN di ezzat kharab karma ajkal da shevaa bann gaya way.

Main souchaaN wee tay mainu trail aa jaandi aay kay keyaiN maaN piyou naiN apni dhee nouN punchayat day kahn tay unna lokaaN day hawalay keeta howay ga. Wachargi tay baibasi de inteha howay gi. Aand Guand day loki tay dujay tejay sub ess gal tay kewaiN razi hoay hoon gay. Punchayatee wee keRay imtehan wichouN lagay houn gay. Ah gal koe aini sidi naiN jinni lagdi aay.

Aay darust aay kay kuRee hawalay ketee gaee lakin agar aay naa keta jaanda tay phair kee honda? Insaaf tay qanoon ainjh hi nazar nai aanday ohnay de gall karnee hi fazool aay.

zorAawaraaN di gall hi manni gaee. Aay kum onhaaN naiN kamiaN kolooN karwayaa howay ga jis di wajaa nall wadiaN ezztaaN walay bach jaan gay aur karindayaaN di phhaRaee ho jaaee gee. Qanoon wee khush tay qanoon nafaz karan walay wee. Asal tay waday mujramaaN nouN kujh naiN hona.

Aay saaraa qisa agar vekhayaa jayee tay 9-11 nall (bhaaNwaiN chhotay scale da way) kafi mulda way. gareebaaN tay kamzoraaN layee na munan di koe shakal nazar nai aaowndi.

Punjab diaaN lok kahaniaN wich wee ek qisa maharaja sir kaap da likhya hoya way. Dar kay loki onhi wee kuRiaN daan day dainday sunn.

Hun yaaN tay qanoon aur insaaf tagRa howay yaaN phair aadat paa lawoo muNh chhupaa kay rowan di…………aur maiN, maiN tay apnay hissay da roo liyaa jay……….baiwas hor kar wee kee sakday naiN…

JadouN Leer Dupataa Hoya Jay
Koe CheekaaN Mar Kay Roya Jay
MaiN Tay Baywas MuNh Chuk Vayna WaaN
MaithouN Kujh We Tay NaiN Hoya Jay


Name: SameerJB - July 04, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   DullaBhatti: Very nice poem, definitely superior quality than mine. You should also try writing about simple ideas and things for common Punjabi because your poetry seems to have good rythmic and melodic qualities, like sufiyana kalam; it can be sung. MTM also is very good at this. Zaki Saheb is more philosophical and perhaps more concerned with the literary quality of Punjabi poetry whereas both of you could write popular poetry easily.

In Punjabi cities, we have traveling singers/ entertainers who share ride with public and have a harmonium or some other instrument. They usually sing popular poetry with nobody knowing who wrote them. They climb at one stop and get off after about half an hour performance and collecting some tips. I rememeber, quite often, someone rich or a zamindar traveling (in buses or trains) will really appreciate by giving hefty tip to these poor performers.

Now you and Imran stop making fun of Chemistry. Just look around and at yourself, everything is made up of chemicals. It is not Chemistry's fault if two of you did not do well in Chemistry; it must be your predestined destiny written in heavens some nanoseconds after the Big Bang..........hehe....


Name: DullaBhatti - July 04, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Sameer and others, I just read the account of event by raped girl's parents and here is my emotional outburst. eho jihe vey'lay barhi sharm aundi ay, adam di zaat chon hoan di.

uTh ni dheeye suttiye, uTh ni aRhiye jaag.
uTh ni eddaN sutteyaN, kade na jaagan bhaag.

uTh Punjab di jammiye, tur kar uchi dhaun.
saddiaN langhiyaN sutteyaN, saddiaN lamba saun.

uTh ni Heeray bachiye, apna mool vikhaal.
Ranjhan, bailay, majhiaN: tere! haq jitaal.

PiraN, GuruaN, murshidaN si tainu ditta maan.
piyOvaN, veeraN, putraN, ajjay na kari pachhaan.

ajjay vi moyeiN jamm'di, looheiN maaN di kukh.
jamnoN pehloN, marn baad, pallay dukh hi dukh.

aap moyeiN tooN jamm'di, par mar mar jammeiN putt.
ni aisay jammein raakhshaN vekh machai lutt.

wich galliyaN de kookday, eh anakh de Thekedaar.
patt teri pai rull'di, galliyaN de wichkaar.

je teri kukhoN jammeyaN ne, injh kamaunay vairr.
hai jutti tainu samjhna, te pauna tainu pairr.

phir tooN vi kar kujh gauhr te, badl sameiN de rang.
eh aadam de putraN naal chhaiRh nawiN hi jang.

jamnoN pehlaN test kar, te je eh niklay putt.
aisay ganday khoon nu, naali de wich sutt.


Name: Javed Zaki - July 04, 2002
E-mail: Zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   ..........Ik Raat Rohi Di

......... MeiN aap rohi (cholistan) de ilaaqe vich kei saal gozaare hun. Oththe meiN Sadiq Egerton college- Bahawalpur tooN F.A. kita te wal Lahore waapas bhuj aaya. Par cholistan naal mera piyaar ghat naaN thiya te meiN summer di chhutyaaN vich waapas oththaaN puj weNda. GarmiyaaN di raatiN AssaaN kei sangti mil te cholistan ander treye treye chaar chaar koh waNde. Chandr diaaN rishmaaN ochche neeviN tibiaaN te lukkan miti khed diaaN, har shae da mukh roashan kreNdiaaN te akhiaaN kooN Thhaar pocheNdiaaN. KidaaiN duur botyaaN (oNThhaaN) di tiliaaN di jhan jhan, kidaaiN kise choti jehi basti vich kise Divay di thar'tharaaNdi lao, kise janne di khulli dhulli awaaz vich Khawaja Farid di mun mohni kaafi da bol. SangtiaaN de haase te chohlaaN te kise janor di traThhi cheek te bhoaNk. Kise sangti di Thuk tut te (ke) beh waNjan di faryaad. "Rub da naan je beh waNjo hun, meriaaN lattaaN tut wesan taaN wal baiso." Machch macha te (ke) apne dhaR de parchhaaN'viaaN nooN napena. Aakhir hassan jaam di baansri di miThhaRi taan de jaadoo neiN saariaaN kooN mad'hosh cha karenaaN. Kei mitraaN amberaaN tooN laththe sitaare akhiaaN vich noot te gahNtta gahNtta sum paina (sote rehna). "hadd thi gei yaar, du paiy wajeNde hun challooN hunn."


Name: Javed Zaki - July 04, 2002
E-mail: Zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   ..........Ik Raat Rohi Di......... MeiN aap rohi (cholistan) de ilaaqe vich kei saal gozaare hun. Oththe meiN Sadiq Egerton college- Bahawalpur tooN F.A. kita te wal Lahore waapas bhuj aaya. Par cholistan naal mera piyaar ghat naaN thiya te meiN summer di chhutyaaN vich waapas oththaaN puj weNda. GarmiyaaN di raatiN AssaaN kei sangti mil te cholistan ander treye treye chaar chaar koh waNde. Chandr diaaN rishmaaN ochche neeviN tibiaaN te lukkan miti khed diaaN, har shae da mukh roashan kreNdiaaN te akhiaaN kooN Thhaar pocheNdiaaN. KidaaiN duur botyaaN (oNThhaaN) di tiliaaN di jhan jhan, kidaaiN kise choti jehi basti vich kise Divay di thar'tharaaNdi lao, kise janne di khulli dhulli awaaz vich Khawaja Farid di mun mohni kaafi da bol. SangtiaaN de haase te chohlaaN te kise janor di traThhi cheek te bhoaNk. Kise sangti di Thuk tut te (ke) beh waNjan di faryaad. "Rub da naan je beh waNjo hun, meriaaN lattaaN tut wesan taaN wal baiso." Machch macha te (ke) apne dhaR de parchhaaN'viaaN nooN napena. Aakhir hassan jaam di baansri di miThhaRi taan de jaadoo neiN saariaaN kooN mad'hosh cha karenaaN. Kei mitraaN amberaaN tooN laththe sitaare akhiaaN vich noot te gahNtta gahNtta sum paina (sote rehna). "hadd thi gei yaar, du paiy wajeNde hun challooN hunn."


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 04, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

DB Ji,

I have somewhat similar experiences with my Chemistry professor to narrate. This fellow was on the interview panel (college admission in Islamabad) along with two other professors. Kafi akaR khan shehri babu si, te sone te sohaga Australia choon paRh ki aaya si.

I had overall good marks and was well above merit. But Chemistry meri zara patli si te mere marks ohnu kuchh ziada pasand nai aye. Besides, I believe he discounted me due to my rural schooling background. My appearences were always Urban. PentaaN paunR da mainu vi baRa shauq si.:) Anyway, luckily, the other two interviewers voted him down and said "he will do fine". Later, I was to find out that he was my Chemistry lecturer. odi mere naal ban ke e nai ditti. I think he felt infuriated inside, but didn't bother me overtly too much, because I was well connected with PSF...


Name: Sameer - July 03, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   I just can not keep that sad mother-daughter picture off my mind today. I am not a literary person or poet at all but here is crudly what I feel. I hope our distinguished poets will forgive me.

Punjab dee Dhee dey NaaN

JadoN izztaN de rakhey izztaN luttan lug paeN

inj laggey jey dharti zehr uglaN lug paeN

Mittro p(b)haijo laanat enhaN rasmaN riwajaN tey

jadoN bandyaN koluN kuttey changey luggaN lug paeN

Is their just one person who liked my poetry? Bali, dil rakhan laie haaN keh deo. I promise to listen to your show tomorrow, 4th of July. I want to listen to one song from movie Shaheed Udham Singh - the one picturized on Juhi Chawla but then.....I have the video and already watched it umpteen times. How about Pathaney Khan's song, inhaN akkheeN koo dHaik, akkheN khush(k) theewan, inhaN akhiaN naal desainda? This is saraiki accent!!!


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 03, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

MTM,

I had exactly the same case in my mind when I said that Human Rights Activists should follow through and ascertain that justice is done.

Your mentioning of D.G. Khan reminds me of my childhood. I used to spend summers in D.I. Khan. I still have fond memories of the hospitality of Derawals, miThhay doakay, and the steamer that ran (I am not sure, if it is still around) to D.G. Khan. I still crack up whenever I recall the unique taunting gesture of women folk - sticking their hand out and uttering "chakhay"...


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - July 03, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   dukh di gall aay way kay main khabraaN waNgouN ayho jaaeeaaN kahaaniaN zayadaa dair tak pahlay pannay tay nahi rayh sak dyaaN. kujh saal pehlay aisa hi ik waqia D.G. Khan wich hoyaa see aur zulm munday di maaN naal kita gayaa magar chund dinaaN day roulay day baad gall da pataa ee nahi chalayaa. In coming days, this news will also be killed by another news - Rabb ee rakha aay........bunda ki kar sak da aay.


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 03, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Sameer,

Please add "kutti choraaN naal mali ae" to my last post.;) Aj kal diyan wazeeraaN di wi ohi haal ae...


Name: DullaBhatti - July 03, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   :-) actually there are quite a few jokes about religious dogma in Punjabi. Here is one I like. ikk vaar ikk jatt da jhota gawaach janda ay... he goes to a faqeer's mazaar and prays "SaiN ji , je mera jhota mil jaye 500 rupaye di daig chaRhaooN"....then he walks over to the gurdwara and says " baba ji, bass ikk vaar jhoTa wapis aa jaye, main 1000 rupaye da parshaad charhaooN ga" while he walking home he stops by the mandir of MaaN SheraNwali and prays "maaN bass jhoTa labh de, main Mangalvaar wale din 1000 rupaye de puriaN chholay wanDaNga tere bhagatan nu"...naal ohday koi ohda saathi si jehra sara kujh vekh ria si...ohne kiha "oye moorhka, ainney da te tera jhoTa nai jinnay di tooN sukhna sukh lai ay"...jatt boleya "bass ikk vaar jhoTa labh lain de saareyaN de hath poochh phaRha daooNga."


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 03, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Dr. Zaki,

Nice little writeup on Sikh Gurus. I agree with your assertion that monotheistic beliefs of Baba Nanank are closer to ours. Whenever we will assert on the basis of this that "Sikh, Musalman bhra bhra" on the other forum, we get lambasted by Hindu fellas. Dr. Sekhon (if this the same gentleman, as I am assuming) will attest to this...

Sameer,

That's one sad sight! Hopefully, human rights activists will see to it that this poor girl doesn't meet the same fate and justice is delivered. They shouldn't count on these wazeers shazeers.

Best Regards


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 03, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

DB Ji,

That's quite funny! Shano vi namaz di yaad imtihanaaN de aale doalay ee aundi si. Baqi sara saal te jamaat di pichhay murgha banRe honde si. Eis gal te ik latifa yaad aaya:

Ik din kissay di gaaN maseet ja puhnchi te Maulvi Sahab ne oday malak nu keya - "haya kar teri gaaN maseeti aa gai". Ohne kehya- "maulana, ma'af kar diyo, haiwan maal ae, tussi mainu kadi dekhiya maseet vich?":)


Name: Javed Zaki - July 03, 2002
E-mail: Zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Aj bohat der pachhooN ik urdu da Qat'aa likhiya e. Os kuRi lei jehRi multan kool gang-rape da shikaar hoi.

...........Dreeda Badan ke Naam...............

Chaak bochhan(*), khooN ba'damaaN taar taar
Chashm pur'nam aabla paa be-qaraar
Rooh bismil, zakhm aaloodah badan
Hawwa ki beti dariNdooN ka shikaar

(*)Bochhan= Sariaki panjabi vich labaas nooN aakhde neiN.


Name: Sameer - July 03, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Imran: BBC south Asia page has the picture of the girl with her mother. I just could not look at her eyes. They say lot more than any words can express. Just go to www.dawn-usa.com and scroll down to BBC and click on the news about her. All because of her 13 years old younger brother. Actually there was another similar case at the same place and the girl committed suicide or poisoned by her family after being gang raped. I will be now concerned about the life of this girl. Either her own family or the higher tribe might just get rid of her for "honor" or for the fear of her testimony, respectively.


Name: DullaBhatti - July 03, 2002
E-mail: Dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Imran, there was another one about the ban on prayers in schools. it says:
"As long as there are exams in schools, there will be prayers"

Bali ji, bahut maza ayea ajj program sunn ke. Rabb Puran Shahkoti ji nu lambi ummer daway te injh ee saadiaN roohaN nu apni miThi awaaz te kalla naal sharshaar karde rehan. pichhlay 40 mint wich mera boss 3 vaar ayea koi gall karn, mere sir te head phone wekh ke muRh jaanda ay,...main vi hath naal ee ishaara keeta ay jaa dafa ho ja ajjay nai.:-)


Name: DullaBhatti - July 03, 2002
E-mail: Dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Imran, there was another one about the ban on prayers in schools. it says:


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - July 03, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   Javed Zaki Ji di gall wich TthuRa Azafa aay way kay moghlaaN Nay tay Tukht Lyee tay bhraa wee wad chhaday sunn hor kissay da lyee onhaaN kolooN ki tuwaqo keti jaa sakdi see........


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 03, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

"In God we trust, everyone else pays cash":) Can't remember where I read it, but found it amusing...

Dr. Zaki,

Janab, eh "taaza akhbaar te puraniaN khabraaN" wali gal haigi. Such is the sad state of affair. Thanks for sharing it though. Sheesha vaikhdiaN rehna chai da bande nooN, ghalat fehmiaN door rehndiaN ne.;)


Name: Zahra - July 03, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Javed Zaki: Thanks for the link. I am not very fond of reading any Pakistani Newspaper. So I will have to pass your suggestion.


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 03, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Binte Havva Ke Naam...

Binte Havva Ki Aabro Phir Tar Tar Hoi
Insaan Numa DarindoN Ki Hawas Ka Shikar Hoi
"Sarzameene Pak" Mein Parchame Zulmat Hoa Kuchh Aur Buland
Sad Afsoos, Insaaniat Phir Ik Baar Sharamsar Hoi...

The above lines are dedicated to the girl from Multan who was gang raped. Sorry, couldn't comeup with Punjabi lines!


Name: Gursharan Singh - July 03, 2002
E-mail: gsinghh@hotmail.com
Location: Reston, Va     USA
Comments:   Hello Bali,

Tohadi Bohut-Bohut Meharbani Ke tusi pher Ustad horaan da show kar rahe ho. Is nu kehnde ne Ke Rabb ne(te mere lai Bali ne)Nedey Ho ke dil di Bujh Lai hai. Once again Thanks a Bunch

Rab Rakha


Name: Bali K Deol - July 03, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Gursharan Ji, Oh interview Ustad Puran Shahkoti vaala archive te nahi keeta, lekin aaj oh te Master Salim phir aa rahe ne...not really for a interview on their lives seeing as that is already done now, but kuj dil diyaaN gallaN zaroor sanjhi karaungee ohnaaN koloN!


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - July 03, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   For Apna Friends:

Agg Vair Di Howay Ya Piyaar Di Agg
Agg Ballay Tay Phair Tay SaaR Di Agg

Agg Jabber Di Zor Di TaqataaN Di
Aaq Qaher Di Zulam Di AafataaN Di
JehRee Baldi Agg Kamzoor Ander
Ohi Hashar Di Agg BaghawataaN Di

Kitay Dob Daindi Kitay Taar Di Agg
Agg Ballay Tay Phair Tay SaaR Di Agg

Agg HaddaaN Di Baal Day Piyar Walay
Dujay TiraaN NouN SaaR Day Khaar Walay
Agg Lagay Tay Phair Na MoR Takay
Wichay Ball Day Jaan Wichkar Walay

Her Kissay NouN Aan PachhaR Di Agg
Agg Ballay Tay Phair Tay SaaR Di Agg

Agg Baallan NaaN Howay Tay Baldi NaiN
Teelee Lagay Ba-ghair Aay Jall Di NaiN
Zehree Hoon Khiyal Tay Laown AggaaN
SouchaaN KoRiaN Naal We Tall Di NaiN

Ratt AndrouN Ander Ee KaaR Di Agg
Agg Ballay Tay Phair Tay SaaR Di Agg

Kam Sokhaa Way Agg NouN Laan Waala
PhhukaaN Mar Kay Agg Tukhaan Waala
Agg Ek TouN Ek NouN PhhaR Lyaindi
Kam Oukhaa Way Agg Bujhaan Waala

Bujhi Jaandi Vee Ghar UjaaR Di Agg
Agg Ballay Tay Phair Tay SaaR Di Agg


Name: Javed Zaki - July 02, 2002
E-mail: Zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Zahra! There is another article (Lost in A World of Lawlessness) published in DAWN's Magazine (June 30, 2002) by Aminah Ali Awan. It gives a general review of the situation of the 'Violence Against Women in Pakistan. I would like to point out here that violence against women is a chronic problem of the whole sub-continent and it cut across boundaries of region, caste and class.


Name: Javed Zaki - July 02, 2002
E-mail: Zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Kahlon Ji te Shikra ji!! Jis gal wal tosaaN ashaara kita meiN vi odhe baare likhan da soch reha c. Pehli gal te eh je Janhagir te Aurangzeb ne jo kujh vi kita oh kisse parooN vi changga neiN boliya ja sakda. Par es taarikhi ghatnaaN da vervaa karn lei sanooN kujh hor gallaN wal vi goah karanaaN poasan.
(1) Jahangir te Aurangzeb be-shak muslmaan baadshah san per ohnaaN de kartootaaN nooN ohnaaN di mazhabi khich naal mithna kisse paasiyooN vi objective naaN hosi. SanooN es taarikhi bhaiR (mera ashaara guru Arjan Ji te Guru Goban Ji de shahzaadiyaaN wal e) da nitaara karn lei (a) the Mongol code "YASA", (Takht-Nashini de haq nooN pacca karan lei sab tooN pehlaaN dooje daawe-daraaN da makkoo Thappo) te (b) Diwan Chandu Lal, Gangu te Diwan Suchna Nand de krodhi kardaar walle vi dhiaan dena poasi. Kujh taarikh daanaaN es gal nooN apne bhaiRe araade poran lei kita, matlab je SikhaaN-MusalmanaaN vich nafrat te krodh waddhe te eh paaR kadde vi naaN mukke. HaalaaN sikhaaN te musalmanaaN vich jeRhi saanjh Ideological, cultural te geo-political e oh sub-continent de hor kisse elaaqe vich neiN. Mazhab parooN doNveeN ik dooje de bohat naiRe neiN. Allama Iqbal es baare likhde neiN:
...."Sikhism like Islam, condemns idolatory, and teaches strict monotheism. Its God is God of all mankind and all religions, 'whose name is True, the Creator, Immortal, Unborn, Self-existent, Great and Beneficient.'[pp 442 Encyclopaedia of Islam,Vol.IV, London, 1934]. Guru Nanak ji aap khood likhde neiN "Sirf is wajh se keh meiN os khuda-i-waahid ka prastaar hooN jis jaisa aor jis ke brabar aor koi neheiN os khoda-i-waahid ke saath kisi doosare ko shareek na Thehraane ke sabab se muslimaan kehlaane waalooN se ziyaada Islam ki khaalis tohid ke qarib hooN." [pp 322, Jivan katha Guru Nanak Ji]. Baba Guru Nanak ji neiN apni zingdi da kaafi vela muslimaaN sufiaaN naal muslimaan mulkaaN vicv langhaya. EhnaaN vich Iran, Arab (Baghdad, Makka te Madina) te naal oh Farsi te Arabi de wadde aalam san [Guru Granth te Panth, pp. 70; Janam Saakhi by Bhaai Mani Singh, pp. 358; The Sikh Religion, Vol. I, pp.15].

....Guru Nanak ji di shoroo di zingdi ohnaaN di muslimaan mid-wife ‘DoultaaN’ sang guzri. Ohnaan de pehle ustaad (teacher) Mohammad Hussain san. MuslimaanaaN hamesh Guru sahibaan naal apni eqeedat (reverence) da baRa khul ke izhaar kita. EhdiaaN kujh misaalaaN thelle likhiyaaN neiN. …….Ik muslimaaN, Roy Bolaar neiN Gurdawaara Janamistan da naaN vaddi jaagir te Nankana Sahib da saara raqba gurdawaara Sahib de naaN laaya. Gurdawaara Baani lila te Gurdawaara Maal Sahib naaviN vi JagiraaN laayaaN. OhnaaN di shaadi te vi baRi dil khol ke nazraane pesh kite. Mughal Badshah Babar ne aap noon eman abad de jail khaane tooN reha karvaaya balke lutya maal vi waapas karvaya. Akbar Baadshah ne guru Amar das Ji noon 84 pind daan kite. Hor kei nazraane vi Akbar neiN Guru Ram Das ji noon daan kite. Guru Arjan Ji jadooN Lahore aaye te ohnaaN di satkaari lei kei muslimaan sufi apRe, jinaaN vich Shah Hussain (Famous Panjabi Poet) vi san. Guru Arjan Ji neiN Gurdawaara Har-mandar Sahib di neiNh rakhan lei Hazrat MiaN Mir horaaN aakhiya…..JadooN Guru Har-GobiNd Lahore aaye te Hazrat MiaN mir noon Milan geye te othe hor vi kei Muslimaan bazurg san. Shah JahaaN da puttar Dara Shakoh Guru Har-Roy Sahib da baRa qareebi mittar si te takhat-Nashini di jang vich aap ne Dara-Shakoh di maali te fouji amdaad kiti. Chamkor di laRaai vich ik Mughal commaNdar 5000 fouji le ke nabar ho giya te Guru GobaNd Ji vallooN laRya. JadooN Guru GobaNd ji ne ihtiati tor te Maachhi waaRe tooN niklan da faisla kita te ehde vich do Muslimaan BharaavaaN neiN jaan te khed ke ohnaan noon othooN niklan vich maddad kiti. Guru GobiNd Singh ji ne Aorangzeb noon ik khat likhiya jehRa Sikh ithaas vich ‘Zafar-nama’ de naaN naal mash-hoor e. Aakhri mughal baadshah Bahadar shah Zafar ne aap noon Hazrat Imam Hussain (The Grandson of Prophet Mohammad PBUH) di talwaar daan kiti te bohat vaddi khil’at nazraana kiti.

[ Eh comment likhan vich saare hawaale thalle ditte mazmoon chooN leye geye ne].

Zaigham, Syed Sibtul Hussan. “Sikh Dharm De 500 Warhe”, LEHRAN, Lahore, April 1999.


Name: Zahra - July 02, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   I have not been reading this forum for a few days, but I remembered that Dr. Zaki posted a full article regarding the treatment of women in a certain part of Pakistan few days back. Crime is a crime wherever it happens and whoever commits it. I just got this piece that I thought I must post here. My preference was to post a link, but I avoided as many have problems with signing up on NY Times.
I could gather various perspectives from Javed Zaki's post but I chose not to go there. Just wanted to post the following as it had a incident reporting on Multan.
----
NY Times - International Section
Council in Pakistan Orders Gang Rape
By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
MULTAN, Pakistan, July 1 -- A teenage girl was gang-raped in central Pakistan last month as "punishment" meted out by a tribal jury for her brother's supposed affair with a woman from a higher tribe, the police said today. A panchayat, or tribal jury, ordered four men, including one of the jurists, to rape the 18-year-old girl on June 22 in the village of Meerwala, 75 miles southwest of here, the police said. She was then ordered to return home naked before 1,000 onlookers. The district police chief, Malik Saeed Awan, said the authorities were told of the publicly ordered rape several days afterward. The gang rape was said to avenge the "insult" caused to a family of the Mastoi tribe by the girl's brother's "illicit affair" with a woman of higher social standing. The girl and her brother were from the lower Gujjar tribe. The panchayat had threatened that all the women in the man's family would be raped unless the 18-year-old submitted herself to the punishment. Mr. Awan said the police were taking action against members of the panchayat. Lawyers visiting the tribal area on Sunday urged the authorities to prosecute the rapists and the jury.
-----------


Name: Zahra - July 02, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Uncle Sekhon: Also, please tell me about the competing theories as well. Please...


Name: Zahra - July 02, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Uncle Sekhon: I do not have anything to write as my mind is somewhere else. But if you can explain to me point by point what is Marxist Theory, I will stay put and will read carefully :) Please...


Name: DullahBhatti - July 02, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Lno time ago I wrote on this forum a dream of worldwide Punjabi Radio or was it TV? now I heard that there are some Punjabi channels on Satellite TV..some of them closed..some still surviving. Latest one I heard is Alpha Punjabi from Zee TV. I was browsing there Alpha Punjabi schedule and found some very punjabi sounding program names. I wish them good luck and hope that this one survives.

- Khabar Saar
- Preet
- Bole So Nihal
- Ajj di Khabar
- Pataake Thaa
- Apni Mitti Punjabi
- Dupatta
- Balde Darya
- Daane Anar de
- Sanjhi Peed(peeRh)
- Kachi Kandh
- Gaundi Dharti
- KikraN de phull
- Kaun Dilan dian Jaane
etc.


Name: P S Kahlon - July 02, 2002
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Comments:   Zahra Bibi: Chup kyoN. Ki huNh mere wari e. SHIKRA VEER JI: You are right that Sikhs suffered a lot during the tyranny of some rulers who happened to be Muslims. According to Prof. Noel Q. King of UC Santa Cruz,"The Sikhs had been decimated, reduced to one tenth".----You named Aurangzeb and Jahangir and I will add Mannu di "Datri". Is it not true that Aurangzeb imprisoned his old father and will not allow a drink of water during a hot summer day when the father ran out of his daily supply of water .What did Aurangzeb do to his siblings. What do you expect from such a tyrant? Veer Ji you said that Muslims played a role in our (Sikh) History. Indeed they did and Let me give some positive roles. 1) When Pir Buddha Shah of Sadhaura (a Sufi saint)heard that the Hill Rajas had attacked Guru Gobind Singh. He rushed to Bhangani with four of his sons and 700 of his followers to dislodge the Attack. Pir's two sons gave their lives in the battle. 2) When Guru Gobind Singh was being pursued by the Mughal Army, he was dressed in Blue by Nabi Khan and Gani Khan and they carried him on their shoulders as Uch Da Pir and the Mughal Army let them go. 3)When the younger sons of Guru Gobind Singh were sentenced to be bricked alive, it was the Nawab of Maler Kotla who lodged the protest. And Do you know who said that Sapp De Bachian NooN jamdian Hi khatam kar denha chahida hai? 4) There is a lot to be learned from history, so that we don't repeat those follies. Veer Ji je time hove, please read this book( The Maharaja's Box By Christy Campbell published about a year ago by HarperCollins).He has reproduced the English Resident and others correspondence from Lahore. All these documents are available at India House in London. He has named many traitors of Lahore Dar bar and all the traitors were non-Muslims. Infact the Muslims were the most loyal subject to the Darbar according to Campbell Veer Ji History can be one sided some time and I am not trying to ignore as I said 90% Sikhs were eliminated, but The Lahore Darbar established I thik a just Kingdom. We can learn from this and the message is clear , that when you treat people justily or as Imran Ji says withmutual respect we can all be better off. Hope I did not went too far with it. Rabb Rakha


Name: Gursharan Singh - July 02, 2002
E-mail: gsinghh@hotmail.com
Location: Reston, Va     USA
Comments:   Hello To All,

Lao Ji Sajjano Ik Hor Cheez Pesh Kar Reha Haan. Eh Geet Mere Mittr da Likheya Hoya Hai Jo Ke Mainu Ik vaari Mil Ke Duniya Di BhheeD Vich Kitey Gwaach Geya. Os Bande Vich Kade Kade mainu lagda c ke Shiv vali koi Chinag Hai Jo Ke usnu SaaD rahi Hai. Rabb Kare Jithe vi Hai Rabb Appni Mehar Rakhey.

Jithe Aapne Hi Bhul Gaye Garibaan Nu
Gairaan Ne Bhulaya TaN Ki Hoya
Mainu Aapneyaan te Na Koi Shikvaa
Gussa Gairaan Te Na Aaya TaN Ki Hoya

Jadon Sajjna Ve Assi Moye Si
Loki Hasde Si Ambar Roye Si
Meri Arthi Nu Chukeyaa KaavaN Ne
Kisse Modha Na Laaya TaN Ki Hoya

Assi karde Jinaa Nu Sajde Rahe
Oh Saathon Kyon DooR Hi Bhajde Rahe
Jihnu "Jassi" Ne Bada Chahyaa Si
Je Ohna Ne Na Chahyaa TaN Ki Hoya


Name: P S Kahlon - July 02, 2002
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Comments:   Imran Ji: Mere piare Bhara khush keetta e. Wasda Raho mere sajan. I knew Punjabi blood runs deep and that is my faith. Rabb Rakha.


Name: Zahra - July 02, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   I do not want to be a nukta' cheen, but the spellings of negative are wrong in the warning in red.


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 02, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Shikra Ji,

During military stand-off, emotions run high. However, I beleive that a little introspection every once in a while doesn't hurt and shouldn't endanger our patriotism. Due to lack of public debate in defining "national interests", our policy makers have made some mistakes which have compounded the miseries of an already impoverished region. Luckily external factors have forced us to reconsider errant policies. That's not to say that the other side is totally absolved of any responsibility in aggravating situation either.


Name: Shikra - July 02, 2002
E-mail: Prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Nice to see that we are having a logical debate without being disrespectful to anyone. I agree with you all on the comments made so far, and it made me think why and where the 'mistrust' came from in the first place. I know you have probably heard it all before but its a relevant issue to the current debate. As Sikhs, we have always been taught about Sikh history, and as you all know Muslims have played a major part in our history, both negative and positive. Unfortunately the negative always outweighs the positive perhaps because the mughal rulers of the period (Aurangzeb, Jahangir)were so brutal towards our religion and our Gurus.

The partition was another issue that added fuel to the 'mistrust'. My family lived in Lahore and as with most families at the time we suffered the trauma of leaving everything there and moving to Jallandhar. Its worth mentioning that my folks never ever faced any conflict whilst living side by side with muslims in Lahore, there was a healthy co-existence so perhaps Imran Ahmed is right about the propaganda and media issue. Talking of Imran Ahmed, you dont sound like the same person as a few weeks ago, your actually talking sense. :-))

Anyway then came the Indo-pak wars blah blah blah...........


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 02, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

I guess, the select group of parents whose livelihood depends upon enemity with India or who have been directly affected by the conflict probably do indoctrinate their childern. The only comment I ever heard from my Ammi regarding Indo-Pak conflict was "Beta Pakistan khud shaitaan hai", which after obejective research I have found to be true.


Name: shahzad maqbool - July 02, 2002
E-mail: pattokee@hotmail.com
Location: islamabad,      pakistan
Comments:   i think if you don't want to add my comments,i should not send in future.that's why i didn't send for two days... now to Dullah Bhatti Dullah Bhatti(meray humsaye,guwandiyo) Dullah Bhatti,sirjeee gal eh way kay tuseee apnay school/college diyaan galaan ker kay menoon apnay school di yaad keraa ditti.....key zamana see o school wala, means when we get break in our school,we usually go to our home,eat food and then come back to attend the classes,what a pleasant period was it....very good,i can't forget it... childhood is really a blessing i think..... also dullah bhatti sometimes i have debate with these shehri babooo,like now i am living in islamabad,studying and doing job here,laikin woh baat .hai na kay mummy/daddy lokaaaan naaal naheein bandi way ...that's why if anybody says me paindo(as i belong to pattoki,kasur),i say them i am proud of them..adn i tell every body proudly that i belong to pattoki,but i've noted this thing in punjabis that most punjabis who belong to villages,when go to big cities,or outside the country they don't tell that they belong to pattoki,they'll tell you that i belong to lahore(means they 'll tell you the name of big city),means they feel shame in telling therer village name,this is not good thing in my point of view..what you think..? Bali k Deol Bali k Deol Bali k Deol Bali k Deol:-Bali yes,you are right...according to media,specially parents...means who tell you that india is our enemy ,it's our parents and our media and who tells indian that pakistanis are there enemies ,it's there media and there children..i know better that when i was child... what the feelings i had ,i got from my parents and media..because in chilhood parents are who make your thinking,....means they give you direction......and yes,i agree with you is that do make your own thinking..you should read history as well do research... Gurshuran Singh,Bali k Deol,Dullah Bhatti Gurshuran Singh,Bali k Deol,Dullah Bhatti, do you know about tehsil zeera in district ferozpur in india,my grandfather moved from there to pattoki district kasur,i want to get information ,if you can give,thanks and gurshuran sing you have lot of information i think..


Name: Bali K Deol - July 02, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Prem Ji, yes indeed, I used the term pendu in the most complimentary manner. Reading your comments and dullabhatti's, I began thinking about how second and third generation Punjabi's in Vancouver treat immigrants freshly arrived from the 'pind'. Its very sad, the term used to describe anyone that wears clothes that are a little different, speaks angrezi with a desi accent, and typically has attributes from back home is described in Vancouver as a Dipper or Dip, in Toronto as a Ref, and often in the States as a FOB. I'll stick to Vancouver because I'm very familar with it, I hear the term dipper almost every day, in fact since I started speaking Punjabi to all Punjabi's, whether they like it or not, some of my friends have jokingly begun referring to me as a dipper too. I always come back with 'I'll take that as a compliment, since you really want to say I'm a pendu, which is fine'. Yet the term DIP or DIPPER is truly a sad offensive term, even more sad when used by Punjabi's. Talk about self hatred. The term stands for 'Dumb Indian Punjabi'.

Sometimes I ask people why they look down on people recently arrived from Punjab, and I hear the most pathetic remarks. "Oh they have that dippy accent, they can't dress, they are so not cool, so fresh, just so damn Punjabi". I try and show the the comparison, I have an accent and yet people think its cool, why the disparity? Anyways, I started writing this post an 3 hours ago, and kind of walked off, now I've lost my train of thought, yet, I guess I made my point.


Name: DullaBhatti - July 01, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Zahra is right...only passive or neutral person should be made moderator. I am too emotional, opinionated and active participant to be good for moderatorship.

Prem ji, let me tell you my story. I know you will love it as it contains some mention of one of your favourite places.:-). The day I passed my Matric exam and went to take admission to this college for my pre-engineering, it was probably my 7th or 8th trip to a city in my whole life until then. All my tavels before that were through the paindooland...like going from my village to my nana's village...we did not not need to go to city for that....bass pindo pind turday jao te aggay maama pind. Anyways...all the men in our village(sorry to mention it again and again. Zahra and Suman ji:)) wore chadars or pajamas with the exception of few who wore out of fashion pants...these people were made fun of by others by saying "oye ghaTangi master"..oye pant wale. All men had beards on faces and some kind of turban or saafa on head. I had met very few cleanshaven people till then...hard to believe but true. So here I go into this college..lucky to get admission to this group of students called A group. All came from good schools with high scores...I did not come from good school but was lucky to have enough high score to be amongst them. All our professors were clean shaven and it took me about 3 months to figure out ke math wala professor kehRa ay te physics wala kehRa. I believe they were good professors with the exception of one...Chemistry wala...in the whole class it was only one other student like me who came to the city for the first time...naturally we bonded(are still close friends living only 100 miles apart now) together and used to sit together in class. Prof. C will ask questions in his class and if 1 or 2 students did not answer he will then turn to us. If others did not know, probablity was very high that we didn't either..so at our wrong answer or no answer...he will go(unfortunately in ThaiTh punjabi)..achha achha aa gaye ne paindoo naklaN maar ke... he will look smiling at other student(liek encouraging them) who will laugh at his comments. It of course hurt us but we wanted to study and did not udnerstand the deeper meaning of his words used so kept quite. We were away form home for the first time...it effected our healths, ability to concentrate on studies, change of medium of education from punjabi to english...terible half year...but then the real paindoos inside us woke up...no we did not beat him up:-)...it basically said...putro, sher bano sher..injh maidaan choN nai bhajjida...so we worked hard and finally made it better than 3/4th of the class. Next year Prof. C was much nicer...and he did not mention the P word again. That was the same technique of showing yourself superior and making others feel lower than you as you mentioned in your post.

Now imagine making that comment to a student in a class in any civilized country...student will sue them in a second. After so many years now that I love the place I grew up, the language I speak and what I am(unfortunately not much different than Prof C with the exception that since he was born in the "city" he was superior)...some times I feel going back and suing that son of a gun. Prem ji, that place I mentioned was not in J...but you got the idea.


Name: P S Kahlon - July 01, 2002
E-mail: Pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Location: Nashville, tn     USA
Comments:   Bali Ji: Right on. I will go one step further and since we are using English vocabulary, I think your use of the word mistrust is a bit milder for me. I may not go as for as saying that parents/frieds/politicians teach hate but they do go beyond just mistrust. I do know that many people do teach a sense of superiority ( which translate into prejudices in my thinking), superiority based on lot of things. I used the term "buzz" word for me, you spoke of speaking like Paindu. I know you well enough to know that you meant in a complimentary sense. But city folks used that word to mean something different. I was trying to find Veer Darwaish's address because I have not heard from him personally or on the Forum. SO I came across my letter to Bushara Khan responding to the statement that people still wearing "Chadar"in remote areas. These are buzz words for me, because I am an out right Paindu(real country). Some time in my class I will say to students that I am Country, and immediately my student will laugh and say,no; you are not country. I will respond , oh yes. Then I will define for them what is country and what is urban in my mind,that I don't need to define here. Why this useless story , because I want to add to your notion that mistrust(prejudices or even hatred in my opinion) is a learned behaviour and we are not born with it. Some people routinely enjoy ethnic jokes without knowing the cosequences of such entertainment.Rabb Rakha, Love you all.


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 01, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

BKD,

I consider that "distrust" the seed, hatred the tree, and violence the fruit. It doesn't take stereotypes long to translate into hatred and manifest in violence. The prudence is not to trust anyone blindly or in other words "trust but verify". However singling out a particular group for distrust for whatever reasons is wrong. Hope that helps!


Name: Bali K Deol - July 01, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Just an afterthought...

Growing up in England in a very white surburban area, at one time I was the only person of colour in a school with over 900 students. By the time I was a teenager we had moved to a village where there were two Punjabi families. For the most part, even now, when I sometimes my nephew to school when I'm over there on holiday, I notice the same nervous, uncomfortable and often outrightly hostile faces from other mothers. Its a lot less than it was but its still there. So in this case its clear who is teaching these children mistrust. Of course they are not saying honey you are better, or these people are less than you, not in so many words, but kids pick up on a lot more than that as we well know. Obviously I'm aware that media propaganda is a huge part of this, and much more so in our part of the world, yet its not the only culprit. Parents themselves are victims of this same media machine, and can only pass on to their kids what they know.


Name: Bali K Deol - July 01, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Imran I agree with you on the media propaganda. Yet does it not affect us all? We can only pass on the knowledge and wisdom that we ourselves have, right? I didn't use the word hatred, or hate once in my post. I spoke of distrust. This distrust is taught in so many subtle ways.

My friends come Pakistan come from University educated ranks as well as those who speak like they still live in the pind. Media propaganda is a widespread tool, its is coupled with biased and often ina accurate historical education. This is fed to our parents also along with stories of past injustices by those perceived to be the aggressors. I am not saying that our closed in community teaches us hatred, but I will still say that they teach us distrust, in subtle ways, often by remarks made, history lessons taught that only give one side of the story and the natural human tendency to distrust those that are different.

The only way to break out of this to do your own research, to find common ground, to look for the truth in history even if its hurts our own image of our people, to understand, and to forgive.


Name: Sameer - July 01, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   I agree with what Imran has said so concisely and precisely. Even the Indian movie and music matters mostly in urban center, otherwise it is just about living out their lives within the local social environments. Most Pakistani Punjabis have never met any Sikh or Hindu. Only less than 10 percent people who have to be in sixties and older will have some memory of India or Sikhs and Hindus. Living in a ethnically and religiously in homogeneous has its consequences particularly when establishment through media, education system and textbooks has been adamantly presenting one-sided view of history. We bring this mindset into Diaspora. But the mindset starts to change once encountering those previously considered terrible do not seem as threatening or terrible at all. Some soften their mindset and some totally change depending upon experiences and free thinking on their own.

The establishment controlled mindset was a big success in Pakistan because it was substantiated by not just religion but also comparison. The Indian economy did poorly and Pakistani standards of living were slightly better than average Indian. This was always translated into having better religion, two-nation theory and Indians suffering because of bad religions. Sometime during late seventies or eighties things started to turn around for India and at present they have slightly better standards of living. Indian economy is growing couple of percent higher rate than Pakistani and Pakistani population is increasing at higher rate than India. If this trend continues for ten years, Indian Punjabis will have substantially better standards of living then average Pakistani Punjabis. This disparity, never existed before, would spark an introspection by Pakistani Punjabis with no hold barred. The most important question, “What Went Wrong” will tear up the state controlled mindset of “we good, they bad”. Some of us have already started questioning without limiting ourselves to the peripheral causes like Kashmir policy, disproportionate military spending, feudalism, corruption and dictatorships. It is clearly a case of misplaced priorities including religious practices and religion in politics. Neither peaceful co-existence nor a friendly relationship between India and Pakistan is on the horizon with current breed of leadership in both countries. With Musharraf in full command, military interests will keep taking precedence over national interests for many years to come. Most of the history deals with how one religion was bad for other people or religions. Now doubts are appearing how certain religious practices and obsession with filtering every little thing through the religion mesh can lead to decline of living standards.

Competition is the nature of all living organisms including human beings. When parents want their child to come first in school or support, it automatically mean that they do not wish others' children to come out on the top. However, it does not mean they wish others' children to flunk in orde for their own to come out on the top. It is not a win-lose situation but ideologies and nations are competing on win-lose model. Again competition between two corporation does not allow to setting fire the competing business. The competition between India and Pakistan is a lose-lose situation for both as Javed Zaki pointed out. This is the worst outcome of looking the situation through game theory. I seriously doubt even resolving the Kashmir problem will end hostilities between two nations. The most weird and most bizzare scenario to force India and Pakistan to honestly co-operate, invoking all the past history of living together and the veneration of Sufis would be a serious challenge threatening the very existence of both nation states. No it won't be poverty or plight of th poor because they already exist but something like a serious and strong movement for Punjab unification on both sides of the border. Right now it is not even remotely possible. Why can't Diaspora Punjabis use it as a bluff to force co-operation between India and Pakistan leading to better living standards and peaceful co-existence? Punjabis have been sacrificing their lives in wars for both countries; they should also consider sacrificing their lives to make peace between two countries. I can already imagine hearing slogan like, "Hindi Pakistani bhai bhai - Punjabi qaum kahaN sey aai".

P.S. Nobody should take it too seriously. It is just a wild thought due to the deep yearning for peaceful and friendly South Asia.


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 01, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

BKD,

Parents are part of community and when you blame a community of teaching hate, distrust toward a certain group you are inadvertently blaming parents of this monstrosity. I believe no sensible parent will ever teach his or her children hate, because, hate and violence tend to follow their own logic and cannot be contained or in other word targeted towards a certain group for too long. That’s just bad parenting, plainly put.

It's most of the time state-owned media that propagandise to shove its nation state down the throats of Indians and Pakistanis, majority of whom are still having difficulty getting used to this alien concept. Top that off with state's inability due to lack of resources at its disposal and wide spread corruption in bringing people of far flung areas into mainstream by providing even most of the basic amenities of life and it's not hard to grasp state's insecurities. People who are still having to bring drinking water from rivers and streams could give too hoots about nation state.

Besides, the inbred lack of collective thinking and aversion to strong center among Indians and Pakistanis further aggravates insecurities state "strategists". It’s a naked truth that thinking of majority of us is still confined to Pind and Bradari. This lack of collective thinking is a one reason there’s never been a grass roots movement to bring social change in the sub-continent.


Name: Imran Ahmed - July 01, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

BKD,

In majority of Pakistani households, India doesn't figure much beyond its entertainment value (Bollywood). We are not taught by our parents to distrust India while growing up. It's the Pakistani establishment controlled media's propaganda that deserves blame not our parents. Your friend's cases could be different.


Name: Gursharan Singh - July 01, 2002
E-mail: gsinghh@hotmail.com
Location: reston, va     USA
Comments:   Hello Bali

The pointed gold thing on the head you were talking about is called Saggi-Phul. usually it is an ornament which comes in either in one big piece or comes in three pieces big one in the middle and two small ones beside the big one. the reason for wearing that ornament is to have your heavy weight phulkari not to slip from your head while dancing or moving around. How I come to find out about es gehne baare enee jaankari. aapni ma de gehneyaan wich es tarah di ajeeb jehi cheez dekh ke nikke hunde ne mai aapni maa to puchda rehnda c.

Waise Kadey kadey Rabb da bara Shukar karda haan ke tere jahi kuri is forum te kade kade haaseyaan di thadi jehi fuhaar kar dindi hai te kadey kadey Teeyaan da virtual tour karva dindi hai. Nahin ta Aaj Kal ethe re Jhakaad hi hor tarhaan de Jhul rahe ne. Any way keep up the good work.

Ik guzaarish hai how can I listen to any previous episode of your net radio show(Pooran Shah Koti te ohde munde master salim wala)I was not able to get to that show. so let me know.

Rab Rakha


Name: Shikra - July 01, 2002
E-mail: Prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Its true Bali, our history is so deeply rooted within us that old conflicts are hard to forget so easily. I suppose muslims were also taught to be weary of sikhs like we were of them, but having said that we were never ever taught to disrespect any religion or person. At school I had a few muslim friends of both sexes and I cant remember thinking any different of them than my sikh or hindu friends, Perhaps this was because we never discussed religion or our past differences.


Name: jagjit sandhu - July 01, 2002
E-mail: jagjitsandhu@yahoo.com
Location: San Jose, CA     USA
Comments:  
All readers are invited to attend

Punjabi Kahaani Darbar

of Punjabi Short Story of North America

on July 7th, Sunday in Milpitas, California
Time: 9:30am, All day event
at Sal-Cracolice Bldg.
450 South Abel Street, Milpitas,CA 95935


Organized by
Punjabi Sahit Sabha California,(Bay Area Unit)

A book of Punjabi short stories by Punjabi writers of North America
"sufne te santaap"
will be released on the occasion.
Dr. Jaswinder Singh and Dr. Dhanwant Kaur
of Punjabi University, Patiala will read well researched
papers on Punjabi Short Story of North America.

In the evening a Kavi Darbaar will be organized


Name: Javed Zaki - July 01, 2002
E-mail: Zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   ZAHRA! Please get hold of any basic book on sociology and you will find a general review of Marxist Theory (along with other competing theories) on social change from the sociological perspective. If you are unable then write me your address and I will try to mail you one. I am just done with teaching a hectic summer course and left with no energy and inclination to write any thing about it.
SAMEER Ji! Few of my friends in Pakistan are running grass-root level NOG's very successfully. You are right the Structural Adjustment Programs (SAP) have proved to be pro-elites and unemployment generating in majority of the developing nations. It has lead to further uneven distribution of income in many LDC's. In the case of Pakistan, it is negatively affecting the social development sector. The military build-up on both sides of the border, tend to have a lion's share in the budgets of India and Pakistan (certainly more in the case of Pakistan), which further aggravate the development process. We recently had a successful Indian-Pakistani forum against the threat of war (nuclear in special) at the Michigan State University. It was well covered by the local T.V. channels and Newspaper. In Houston – Texas both Indian and Pakistanis had a big rally (few thousands) for this purpose.
PREM Ji te BALI Ji! Cultural commonality can be a great source of affinity among Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus (and Christian, also) on both sides of the border, given that religion is not exploited by extremists and fundamentalists to over-shadow it.


Name: Bali K Deol - June 30, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   ....Prem ji, kade kade insaan da naa bilkul nee ohnu phabdaa, lekin tusi te enaa pyaar naal likhde ho te towade lafzaaN choN sachiN Prem hee nazar aunda hai.


Name: Bali K Deol - June 30, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Prem Ji,

I would agree with you. Before learning or becoming so involved with Punjabi culture I felt a little more comfortable among Sikhs than specifically Muslim's. Now I ponder on why this was, and it goes down to what I was learning from the community around me. I was taught to distrust Muslim's, which to a certain level I did. (This is an extremely honest post) Shikra, since you also grew up in the UK, actually more in the heart of the conflict of which I speak, you must surely understand my point. Today I have many Muslim friends who were raised in Pakistan who speak of the same distrust they were taught to have of let's say Indian's in particular and also non-muslims.

Today, though I can say with confidence that I feel a natural affinity towards Punjabi's regardless of whatever religion they happen to be. Yes perhaps I'm a little more cautious of what I say around my non-Sikh Punjabi friends, thats just simply being couteous and taking care not to hurt anyone's feelings by saying something that would be in conflict with their faith. That doesn't mean we never discuss those things though.

An all too rigid path of any religion is not good for the individual or for the community at large. That will most likely cause a few ripples. Constantly viewing each other with eyes of suspicion only closes us in...dare...God made us with the same tender loving care, we all worship in our own way, some in masjid's, mandir's, gurdawara's, churches, and others alternatively by simply in their own hearts and in their daily actions. Nothing wrong with either of these, yet, I do believe that the second, alternative option is complete, yet the first without the second is of small consequence.

Its so difficult to stop believing what we've always been taught since childhood. People will always quietly give their own faith props, sometimes, even while actually very little knowledge about it. Yet it seems almost an accident, if a Sikh had been born a Moslem or vis-versa, then picture the scenario. Even when we think we are thinking for ourselves, are we really? Or are we only thinking within the boundaries that we have mentally allowed ourselves, making sure we never question or contradict anything that may lead us to question the 'word'. Thinking outside the box takes guts. The faith box has become the most cast iron there is in this world. With the constant fear of hell and damnation if we so much as dare to look outside the one the consequences of our birth gave us...this goes for all faiths, some more than others.


Name: P S Kahlon - June 30, 2002
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Location: Nashville, tn     USA
Comments:   Imran Ji: We have lot in common.Let us start this way that I also believe that faith brings us together. That religion has been exploited by some ,actually not just in Indo/Pak situation but through out the history people have used religion for their personal gains. That our relationship should be based on mutual respect as you said so eloquently. These are your's as well as my goals, so we have lots of things in common.It was not my intention to overplay culture. We are products of our environments and hence some buzz words invoke certain reactions in us. I certainly don't find myself misfit in the company just because somebody is not a sikh. It is my faith in human beings that made me say what I said.Punjabis in my opinion have lot more in common with each other regardless of their religion than with non Punjabis. In my long letter to some friend on this forum, I tried to give my impressions on this issue. Not all Punjabis but majority of them in my opinion will prefer to assosiate with each other ragardless of religion. That is my life experience and it may be different from your's. When I go to professional meetings, those from west Punjab who recognize my name immediately find in me a friend and this is not an isolated situation.Still my friend we have lot in common and lets exploit that for common good based on mutual respect. With profound regards for you and your belief. Prem Singh


Name: Sameer - June 30, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   It is good to see mutual respect coming back to discussion. This is the way it should be all the time. Only the powerful have the power to bring about peaceful co-existance.

Zaki saheb, recently I tried to defend left-of-center at another site I often interact but it seems like out of fashion lately. You have my best wishes in your endeavor to actually do something. For some strange reasons - may be in order to justify my inactive/ theoretical participation status or my very subjective analysis of history - I have concluded that the probability of doing anything at grass-root level or bottom up approach is miniscule in our societies. It may have to do with lax attitude, poor communication, poor organizations or simply lack of revolutionary spirit. All the changes good or bad have been top down and at present the top down agenda of elite is accumulation of wealth by all means possible as SAP story posted by Imran. These morally bankrupt and their ineptitude to do anything has brought us to the brink of failed state. The caste system, the conversions, the partition, the bloodbath in 1947, the failed Kashmir policy, the sectarian violence, the non-stop exploitation of the most precious, most vulnerable, you name it were/ are all top down approaches. We must introspect as frequently as we cherish our land and culture. The Punjabyat can not succeed without Punjabis succeeding in overcoming all the evils hampering our progress and creating a just society.


Name: Imran Ahmed - June 30, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   Kalhon Ji,

As someone said "faith brings us together, ingenuity sets us apart". Let's face it sir, at the end of day you will be comfortable in your Gurdawara while I a misfit there. Culturists should not underestimate the importance of religion. The theory of irrelevance of religion in modern age has fallen flat on its face. In this increasingly globalised world, culture is on the losing end while religion keeps getting stronger than ever. Sky rocketing numbers of evangelical Christians and the recent decision of majority of parents to send their children to religious schools (in the US!) on government vouchers are a clear indication of the trends.

In Indo-Pak context, I don't disagree with the fact that the religion has been exploited by vested interests to their own ends. But, I am unable to grasp the logic that by overplaying "cultural bonds" and degrading religion will somehow bring coveted peace in the sub-continent without dealing with the underlying problems. Religion is not the hurdle in achieving peace, it's the vested interests that are preventing it. I don't believe we will ever be brothers-in-arms as such, but peaceful co-existence based on mutual respect should be a goal pursued relenetlessly. Everybody deserves it!

Regards


Name: Shikra - June 30, 2002
E-mail: Prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Bali: Vancouver sounds like a real 'Desi' Place with all those punjabi functions you keep mentioning and making us non canadians jealous. I might just move there and join in with the singing etc. Bach keh raiyo.


Name: Zahra - June 30, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Dr.Zaki: What's the Marxist theory? Please tell me in a few lines or so. I solicited some input from Saleem on the same lines, but never got a response. I am trying to clarify my own understanding. Also, please let me know about the lefts and rights? What's their significance? I hope it would not be taking too much of your time. Saeed Farani can also jump in to educate. Thanks.
Dr.Zaki: That's nice to hear that you are working with Dr. Hassan. I have heard great things about her from the founder of WomenforHumanity. I guess she is in Pakistan at the moment.


Name: Imran Ahmed - June 30, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Javed,

I would only be more than glad to. Just let me know and good luck with your endeavors!

Regards


Name: Bali K Deol - June 30, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   I was just coming home from Punjabi Market, where I had gone to but yet another colourful suit for next weeks Akhada 2002, kee kariye, events hee bahut hunde ne :-)) ....anyways coming back in the car my friend was planning out loud what she was going to do when she got home, make roti for her kids, and then she was going to get ready for a party tonight, seeing as she was short of time, she said 'meiN cheti ghar jaake pindE naaH laina'...I was quiet for a minute and her little phrase too me right back...it's been years since I heard anyone say that...my mum used to say to us all the time jao pindE naalo..now I've replaced that with 'shower' ..CORRECTION...I HAD replaced it with shower...because each and every time I notice that I've replaced a Punjabi word with a english one, I make the effort to stop doing that..Something that I think we should all do...too many beautiful words and phrases are simply getting lost, and it makes me truly sad..I'll leave you with one more...yesterday the same friend said when a car got too close 'paase ho jaa, nahi te eh gaddi ne teri bakhhi sek deni a..haha An


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - June 30, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   Bali Ji: Jeyoundi Rawoo ....i enjoyed your lively post .. Rabb Khush Rakhay...


Name: Javed Zaki - June 30, 2002
E-mail: Zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   IMRAN! I have been in the struggle of making some difference in the "oppression of the weak, corruption, honor killing, burning of brides etc.", along with other progressive fronts for the last many years. Presently, we a group of like-minded activists with the support of Dr. Riffat Hussan (the great Islamic feminist scholar/activist) are working to start an NGO aimed at helping ‘females victims of violence in Pakistan.” We already have a great response from Americans and Pakistani sympathizers and we hope that people like you will pitch-in this kaar-i-khair.
Zahra! I am not of the kind who will run away from the commitment to a cause so easily. Jamaati Ghundaas once threatened me with dire consequences if I did not stop teaching ‘the Progressive (Marxist) Theory of Social Change” as a part of a course on ‘the Sociology of Development ” Their sympathizers in faculty asked their students not to enroll for that course. I refused to budge to their threats and taught the way as I have developed.


Name: Imran Ahmed - June 30, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

I wonder if we will ever be able to break free from this vicious cycle of corruption and exploitation. Because, it seems the only change that has materialised is "change of hands". One group of exploiters is replaced by another every few years and the cycle continues. How unfortunate!

SAP wrapped up...


Name: Bali K Deol - June 30, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Well I'm going to post something lighthearted, and encouraging. Yesterday I attended a 'TeeyaaN' mela in Vancouver, many top singers were here from Punjab, (alas Naseebo Lal was no-show)..about 3,000 women attended. Today there is another one where aboout 8,000 women are expected. It was a colourful sight, har paase kuriayaaN turiaaN firdiyaaN see, modern fashions all forgotten, lakaaN nu parande val khaaNde, jhanjhaaraaN chankdiaaN, kise de haath vich pakkhi, kise de ser te soohi fulkaari, kise de ser te oh pointed gold things, sorry don't know what they are called. SaareeyaaN ne hathaaN te mehndi lawai, kikliaaN payaaN, giddhe paye, inj lagda see jiven hasde puraane Punjab ch paunche hunde a..yakeen maano ki chaali chaali gajj de ghagre vee dharti sumberte jaa rahe see, bibiaaN te kuriaaN ne ralke TeeyaaN manaaya. Sometimes I wonder if we outside of Punjab are doing more to keep our culture alive that actually over there.

The only down point to the day was that the promoter, a Punjabi, continuely spoke tutti futti Angrezi on stage, pehli gal te oh bolda kyon see, te dooji jad bolni vee nahi aundi araam naal Punjabi ch teri samajh te lagge kee keede pehN pehN chadee jaaNa a. Kehnde kuriaN nu 'please mein towanu punjabi ch kehnda a , please be move ho jao'. Punjabi? Really? Beats me!

Anyways Sameer ji and Dullabhatti ji, othe meiN vee hathaaN nu mehnNdi laake baithee see, te towada yaad aaya. Pata kyon, isliye ki upar sarak te, gates de baahar, uchee jagaa see, te munde baahar chadar beshaake baithe see jiveN baneriaaN te baithe hunde ne, chaatiyaaN marde see. Towadi kitte agge koi likhi gal yaad ayi see os vele...meiN jaake Sardool Sikander nu kiha see ki Noorie nu keh ohee boli paave 'veeraaN'(jehri dullbhati tu dassi see) te ohna te taavaa laave zara!

Hope this serves as a little light relief from the negativity and malicious intent caused by a minority here.


Name: Imran Ahmed - June 30, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Javed,

I wonder what your intent was by posting that piece from DAWN? Were you trying to educate the readers about unfortunate exploitation and injustices against women in our society? Or was there some other hidden motive behind thy attempt?

Punjab name's might not have been mentioned in this particular article. But the fact remains that we share the cultural baggage with other provinces. Opression of the weak, corruption, hounour killing, burning of brides etc. are our collective culture. Sadly, nothing really to be proud of.


Name: P S Kahlon - June 30, 2002
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Location: Nashville, TnFriends     USA
Comments:   Friends: I am reading all the comments with interest,I am hurting and getting scared that this noble cause may be hijacked by some who may have problems with the goals and aspirations of those wonderful people who had the foresight and the courage to start this forum. However,I have faith in basic human goodness and faith in our culture/language and rationalise my thoughts by assuming that nobody can beat us. More than a year ago in my private mail to Saeed Veer Ji, I wrote to him about my experiences while I was a student at La. State some 40 yrs. ago and tried to explain to him that language/culture is a much stronger bond for most people than some of the other factors. I won't go into details regarding that argument but simply say this: We are going through difficult times and it will pass. Let us not worry too much about the disagreements , but keep our focus on our main goal. Everything I have read will actually strenghten our resolve to be fair and motivate us to spread little bit of love around. Reading different opinions may even bring moderation in our own hearts. Instead of searching for a moderator we should simply ignore if somebody tries to sidetrack our cause/issues and please stay focussed in our mission. Rabb Rakha and love to all and remember "we shall overcome" all these temporary obstacles.


Name: Zahra - June 30, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Javed Zaki: I also forgot another point: When the literacy rate is so damn low, who is going to read Dawn's findings? The selective readers will say that they know this happens, but it does not happen in our lives. So, why bother. Let's move on. Analyze this, please. You are in education and most probably research as well, you should be able to come up with some suggestions in this regard rather than wasting your energies on who should be a moderator and who should not be :)


Name: Zahra - June 30, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Javed Zaki: Looking at the length of the article, I thought it was written by you and you were being kind to ommit that. I can be wrong :)

This article indicates many things. And those many things can further be interpreted in many ways. That's how human mind is. I would have loved to go into the details, but it's becoming time consuming. When the writings are pretty much on the wall, somehow I lose interest. By saying that I do not mean to ignore your efforts in bringing this piece to the limelight. Then, what?
It's the same thing that I asked one friend who told me with great pride that xyz visited his office on a trip to the US and spent the whole day. Here xyz meant a dignitory. I asked, Phir Kyaa Hooaa?What was the outcome? No response!
On another note: Only that person should be appointed as a moderator who has little interest in writing. If you task a budding writer or a freelancer with moderation then you are diverting his/her thoughts. Keeping that in mind, Dullah Bhatti should not be made a moderator. He can be a Naseh, but not a moderator. Now going through the process of elimination, Dr. Zaki will not do a good job either for various reasons. Without being a sexist, I would say he should focus on writing. Uncle Kahlon, is a silent reader. Often times, he graces this board with his presence and can be a good candidate. Safir Rammah himself is a mature writer and ought to write more than hide behind the curtain of moderation. It's obvious that he is doing too many things and it's not fair to expect that he will be on top of each and every thing going on here. I am sure he has not taken a tayag from his worldly chores yet. As soon as that is declared then we can be rest assured that he will be 10 in 1 :).

Rest should continue focusing on quality writing and avoid provocative behavior in their expression no matter how hard it may be.


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - June 30, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   I am a bit confused. I could not figure out the criteria behind using terminalogy of PRACTICING MUSLIM by many friends in their recent posts. Why this terminalogy is used and what is the minimum qualification which allows one to declare either himself or others as a Practicing Muslim. I know it is not a relevant question for this form but the terminalogy is used here so I think that qualifies my question. Will anyone help?


Name: Javed Zaki - June 30, 2002
E-mail: Zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   IN THE NAME OF CUSTOM (An article related to the state of women's status in Pakistan: Dawn- June 27)

Abdul Sami Paracha

Women are still treated as objects to be bought and sold in certain parts of the tribal areas.
Many women in Pushtoon tribal society are still regarded as machines and the obedient servants of men. With a dismal literacy rate of 0.32 per cent, their plight is best encapsulated in a famous local saying (mostly told as a joke): "Women are meant to fetch water and collect wood during the day and work on the eleventh child in the night, as their husband wishes."
The 'sale' of girls and boys has also been in vogue in certain areas. In many cases, the deal is struck by none other than her father and brother. While men seek beauty and are willing to pay anything for it, women have no choice but to accept the decision.
Noor Jan Orakzai is a Malik (elder) of the Mamozai tribe of the Orakzai Agency. He has seven daughters and sighs with disappointment that his tribe has fixed Rs60,000 as the rate of a girl. Earlier, it was up to the father to decide the rate and one could easily get Rs150,000 for an average girl. Four of the girls are his brother's, after whose death his wife was married to Noor Jan. Those who practice the custom claim that they are not buying women but offering bride-price, as opposed to dowry, for them.
The nomadic Ghilji, Kochi and Jaji women are the most costly because of their pretty faces, height and muscular physique. A girl can fetch Rs300,000 or a hundred sheep for her family. Similarly, the Afridis also pay a huge price for a girl's hand. In the Mohmand and Bajaur Agencies in the extreme north of the NWFP, because of extreme poverty, the bride-price is very low. But nobody is given away free of cost.Women who are priced highly in this area feel honoured, with the deal taking months to finalize.
It has been seen, in extreme cases, that warring tribes aim for women and girls who, after they are caught, are then sold off, resettled or forcibly married to them. In 1998, about 65 women were reported missing in fighting between two groups in the Orakzai and Kurram Agencies. Instead of taking lives to bring each other down, they (the tribes) attack each other's honour, to sully it in the eyes of neighbouring tribes. The act also helps to get leverage in case a jirga (a reconciliatory meeting) is held at the end of the war. There have been reports confirming the fact that rival tribes had sold better-looking women and girls to pimps in Peshawar's flesh trade market.
According to local sources, during the last 20 years, in the Orakzai Agency alone, at least 19 girls have been condemned to honour killings. The number exceeds 100 if the other tribal areas are included. From the 20 cases, only three of the men involved were killed. The remaining fled the area, leaving behind their loved ones to be sacrificed. In Pushto these women are called Tora which means 'stigma', the same meaning as the term Karo in the interior of Sindh. Here, too, the same term is used for killing them in the name of honour. For the judgement of Tora, only one witness is sufficient, who can himself perform the ritual at the scene or can report the matter to the families of the couple, who can then kill them separately in their homes. In most of the cases, the absconding male never returns to his village for the rest of his life.
The tribesmen also buy women from the other provinces for the sake of prostitution. During a military operation in the famous gun-manufacturing town of Darra Adam Khel, the army recovered dozens of girls from the dens of hotel owners. Most of the girls, kept in the CIA cell in Kohat while they waited to be handed over to their families from different parts of the country, reported that they had seen sunlight after more than a year. The hotel staff had offered some of them to truck drivers, while others were sold to potential buyers soon after reaching the tribal area. Since then, no word has been heard about them. The influential tribesmen, who are still involved in this inhuman business, were never arrested nor punished. Instead, they were all exonerated after they had paid a fine under tribal norms to the administration and the elders.
In 1998, four school teachers were kidnapped by a group of women traffickers from Darra Adam Khel. A proclaimed offender, Mujahid, who acted as a go- between, later sold them to another party in Parachinar for Rs250,000. From there, these innocent school teachers were whisked away to Swat to a newly-established brothel. One girl managed to escape from the den following which the police got the other three released too. However, under immense pressure from the other tribes, the parents did not allow them to enter their homes. The man who had taken the girls from Darra to Kohat was kidnapped by the tribesmen and was burnt alive in the bazaar to avenge the girls' kidnapping. His name was Riaz. No investigations were conducted into the case and the file was closed at the request of the teachers' relatives.
Rich tribesmen of Orakzai, Waziristan and the Kurram Agencies would buy girls from Swat, Charsadda and Mardan at extremely low prices. Afterwards, they would kill their enemy next to their wives, declaring them to be Tora. To discourage the practice of making alien women scapegoats, elders have now banned such killings and imposed a restriction on them, saying that only local girls could be killed on such charges, not outsiders.
Honour always demands sacrifices from women. In 1945, Israrullah was engaged to Bibi Khani. He left soon after to work in Bombay. He returned in 1986 to bury his wife-to-be who had died while waiting for him. In these areas, such women are respected. The people of their tribe proudly proclaim: "Sar aey spin kro" (For the sake of honour, she became old and died a virgin).
There are other bizarre traditions for maintaining honour. In a village near Bannu district lives a tribe which welcomes the barat with rotten eggs, vegetables and fruit. The bride accompanies her in-laws and she is seen off in the same manner. Dr Fazal Ahmed, a resident of the village, says that they indulge in this practice for the preservation of their honour.
However strong a lion may be, it cannot fight vultures alone. Similarly, the downtrodden and weak among us need the help and support of organizations to fight discrimination. For one is not born by birth without honour, it is society which makes people good or evil.


Name: Zahra - June 29, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Dullah Bhatti: Good Points. There will be no point of intersection when it comes to views. Even people change as they grow up. Their views ammend with time. Some are stubborn enough to stick to some views as they do not develop the insight to go farther. Some have strong principles on certain points in life and they stick to them regardless of what the world thinks. There is no right and wrong as long as your views are a clear indication of your own beliefs. The link to the first article by Nicholas K. is deep and haunting. I briefly mentioned this article to a Pakistani US Citizen friend of mine, who has grown up in Pakistan. She simply refused to take a look at this piece because western media is this and that.... We are very happy to live in the comfort zones of our foolish prides and continue to chant proud of this and proud of that.
In short, it's just escapism while living in fools' paradise and weaving a fine web of spiritual, cultural and traditional hodgepodge.


Name: Imran Ahmed - June 29, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Sameer,

Relax yaar! That cartoon was an [unintentional] cut 'n paste mistake and will be removed, as all my posts are. I don't know how Punjab or its "culture" is threatened by it, though.

I would reiterate my position that culture cannot or shouldn't remain oblivious to religion. Cultural practices that conflict with religious ideology will have to eventually die out and nobody can prevent that. Bhanwain koi tatty taway te ee kyon na beh javay.

Also, I believe that radicals don't born out of the blue. Men like Abd-al-Wahhab are of our own making. I wonder how much diluted practices of sub-continental Muslims had a bearing on his psyche and the consequent birth of Wahhabi movement. We can shift the blame elsewhere (British) as usual. But, I think his visit to Hind might hace more to do with his emabarking upon "purification movement"!

Now if that makes me "trigger happy", so be it. I don't worry about labels.


Name: Sameer - June 29, 2002
E-mail: jgsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   I will also fully support DB or Prof. Kahon to be the moderator here. It is just getting out of hand. First of all the useless cartoon must be removed because it has nothing to do with Punjab or the guidelines of APNAorg discussion. We must understand that the trigger happy ones are taking this as their duty against which even writ of Pakistani state is helpless. It is considered religious duty, and part of beining practicing religion to defend their version irrespective of any guidelines or the laws of the land.

I clearly stated in my previous post, "The belief part of faith has very limited utility in practical terms". The belief part to me was belief in one god, prophethood of Mohammad, khatm ul anbia, belief in judgment day and not following any other diety. These are all theoretical things. And the trigger happy reply came, "propagandist, "RAW agent" and "for practicing Muslims........". Who has denied here that for a practicing Muslim 18 hours a day, culture will be left with no time. There are such people in every religion. However, the term practicing religion means practicing anywhere between zero and 24 hours a day. Some will practice five minute a day, other 18 hours a day or once a week. I agree to some extent with Kamran that Islam has enriched Punjabi culture in many areas as do Sikhism and Hinduism. The thing taking place at urs of pirs and sufis are mostly cultural or indigenous. It is impossible to conclude if religion is aabove culture if one witnesses any wedding taking place in Punjab. Except for the nikkah ceremony it is all local traditions and nikkah takes only 5-10 minutes. Of course Tableeghi Jamaat or Council of Islamic Ideology opposes these local traditions but they have failed in the past and they will fail in the future to exclude all non-Arabic elements of Punjabi heritage. Just like politics, all culture is local and Punjabi voting pattern during few elections Pakistan had is a clear indication of it. The voting trend has been PPP or PML on one level and Jat, Rajput, AraiN and Gujjar on tribal affiliation level.

Once in Lahore during elections, Bhutto won election despite stating in public, haan maiN sharab peeta huN, ghareeboN ka khoon naheeN peeta" and a joint fatwa, branding him kafir by almost all the well-known mullahs. Majority matters and majority of Punjabi Muslims do not weave their lives and decisions around a narrow and rigid version of orthodox Islamist and fundamentalists.

Right now it appears that PPP (Benazir Bhutto) is the most popular party in Punjab. One can count Islamists out right away but Shahbaz Sharif can make a comeback if 1) he is allowed, 2) he comes against Musharraf and most importantly 3) If he promises and sincerely means to defend Punjabi language and culture. He can upset PPP in Punjab easily only by going all out for Punjabyat.


Name: Imran Ahmed - June 29, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Javed,

You built your case on a false notion: Hindus deities must be revered and even elevated to prophethood in order for us to have a social atmosphere for peaceful co-existance. I am gald that you finally realised the fallacy of your argument and ran out of steam. Your getting personal is an indication enough of that. So, the end of debate, as far as I am concerned.


Name: DullaBhatti - June 29, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Shahzad Maqbool: janab! jee ayeaN nu. tusi apna pinD Kasur dasseya vey? apni baiThak choN bahir niklo te Khemkarn vall munh karke bhunjeyoN chukk'ke ikk moTi jihi Dheem sutto...sidhi saaday pinD aa ke vajjay gi. mera matlab ay tusi saaday gawaandi 'O. mera khiyal ay humsaye hon karke meri gall shaiyad tuhade jaldi samajh aa jaye. so, wadda bhra hon de naate ikk dou salaahhwaN ne, je manzoor hon...je nahi te baari choN bahir sutt diyo(salaahwaN, mainu nahi:-)).

Pehli gall: you don't have to post 1 line posts in response to everyone and thank everyone for everything. It is understood that you agree with good views, and appreciate fellow participants. That goes without saying...although you can mention it once in a while par kaseeday likhan na kujh nahi bann'na. This website does not get paid by hits. bhaweiN saara din TakkraN maari jao, aithey ikk chawaani da faiyeda nahi je hona. aweiN khilaara jiha painda ay te discussion paRhan/karn waleyaN nu dikkat aundi ay.

Dooji gall: ehh bhainaN bharawa da pinD ay. te tusi khud siyaane O...siyaane kehnday ne bhehnaN de pinD 'ch akhaN neewiyaN karke langhi'da ay. eho jihay banday di saare sift karde ne. tuhadi vi hoye gi sift te tusi hor makbool howoge. eh salaah thoRhi sensitive ay , mind na karna.

teeji gall: NY Times di website te jaa ke ikk vaar phir try karo..registration ho jayegi...tuhanu beshak nahi pata par tuhade koll time haiga ay.

Baaki saare: Dosto, I think self restraint is the best. We don't need a moderrator who continuously evaluates our thoughts and words to phair kainchee. what we need is a clear set of guidelines for the discussion allowed..then we individually restraint ourselves to be within those guidlelines and collectively condemn anyone who crosses it.


Name: Khawaja Kamran Sadiq - June 29, 2002
E-mail: kamran_khawaja@hotmail.com
Location: toronto, on     can
Comments:   Oho, here we go. Regards to reverance, and honouring figures and what not. It amazes me to find ppl very willing and able? to comment on verses of scripture. Surely they have spent years learning classical Arabic, and years looking at the history of the revelation, when and were verses were reveled/context, have examined what great scholars have stated in regards to these verses. I am saying that one should be very careful in making any statement about the faith...darna de gal eh...the seeds of information/misinformation shall come back to you as saza, or jaza. Explain to me, why a Muslim would look outside the fold is Islam for figures worthy of honour. Imam Ali, Imam Ghazali, Imam Al-Haddad etc. should suffice any of you interested in the ways of controlling ones nafs aka: 'sufism'. This discussion on religious figures has gone way out of context, and the tone is not very pleasant [afsos de gal eh]. Personally, though I am the first to say I am an ullu, I think the only way to grasp the Panjabi minds such as Khawaja Farid [shameless self promotion of the Khwaji khuun] and Bulleya, is in the context of their respective pens, and that is from an Islamic angle, or insight into the battle to control the nafs, and become a sidda banda. It is a shame that culture has become divorced from faith now, as one who stands somewhat under either elaam is a namazi, or a marasi. I will hold to my position here, that the culture of the Panjab [mashreki ya gharbi] is essentially intrinsically Islamic...that should cause some rumblings...end of the day, let us reduce these understandings and accept the message of insaniyat. Surely, the best among men is he with the best character. So eat ur alu vale rotiyan with daey, and rasp the tol at your viavah, just dont look at the kuriyan too much. haha, jyundaro mitran. rab rak.


Name: Javed Zaki - June 29, 2002
E-mail: Zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Sajno! MeiN Dullah Bhatti Ji horaaN nooN 'moderator' banaan di salaah ditti te oh sirf ohnaaN diyaaN so-chaji-yaaN khobiyaaN di wajh tooN. Eh khobiyaaN kisse vi hor (male or female) vich ho sak diyaaN ne. MeiN eh wazaahat es lei zaroori samjhi je koi begair sooche samjhe moNh chuk ke mere te 'sexist' ya 'male chauvanist' hon da alzaam na laa de.


Name: Sajid Chaudhry - June 29, 2002
E-mail: sajid_nadeem_ch@hotmauil.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Comments:   Teeja vote mera.....te mera khayal ay keh sirf ek time laee nahi balkeh DB ji noo pakka pakka moderator bana diyo iss taaN Safir Ji da bhaar ve thoRa jehya hor vandya jaye ga te DB ji ve forum te SHAIR DI AKH rakhan gaey....


Name: Bali K Deol - June 29, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Shahzad ji, tusi baahar baahar kyon mainu Hakaan maarde ho? Lao ji towanu devaaN ik matt!...Eh ji Apnaorg hai ik chota jiha pind, pyaar pariya...eh vasda bilkul border dee line de upar, es te har Punjabi da hakk e, es gal naal te mainu pata tusi vee sehmat ho...lekin sada ik rivaaz e, ki pind vich sab bhen bhraa hunde ne...so ik hor khahaavat, meiN vee vasdi a ethe, te tusi vee vasde ho, te baaki sab vee vasde ne, so Shehzad ji, yaad rakhna 'Vadiya siaaniyaa tainu devaaN ik matt, jis gali vich rayiye othe dayiye na latt'.....

Now I will suggest something else, why don't you collect all your thoughts and put them in one post instead of 20, and meri gal chaddo te Punjabi de sirf karo. Kee khyaal hai towada?

Javed Ji, you are right on the mark for Dullabhatti, I here second the vote! :-))


Name: Zahra - June 29, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Nicholas Kristoff is one the best columnists that NY Times cherishes. His columns are not only worth reading but carry the appropriate satire and sarcasm. The following three columns in the last few weeks have been focusing on Pakistan. Something worth reading! Sadly, there is too much focus on toap, tanks, false pride and honor, but there is no focus on prevalent anarchies. I am glad they are kicked right and left on international media now. All the insecure retards ought to be buried alive with their insecurities. Good for nothing!!!
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/18/opinion/18KRIS.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/21/opinion/21KRIS.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/25/opinion/25KRIS.html


Name: Sameer - June 29, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   shahzad: Where in Islamabad? Closer to Super Market? Jinnah Super Market? Blue Area? Aab para? How is Islamabad like today? That is where I grew up eating wild berries and revering Bari Imam more than Golra Sharif. And of course Quaid-e-Azam University!!!


Name: Javed Zaki - June 28, 2002
E-mail: Zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Mr. Imran! Are you aware of theological debate among Islamic scholars on the issue of 'Naskh-wel-mansookh'? Should I consider these ayahs as 'mansookh' and consider them of no significant importance? Mr. Imran a 'practicing Muslim' like you should acknowledge the divinity of message in these ayahs without any hesitation. Moreover, Mr. Imran, you know (if you live in U.S.A. Or any other part of the world where the Market Economic System is prevalent) your pay or earning is earned through a process which is based on the fundamental principle of 'the maximization of profit'. I think I do not have to tell you the Islamic institution of 'Riba'. Now you know what is the implication?
Dear Sameer! You know I usually avoid being involved in religious discussion, usually with those who subscribe to orthodox and fundamentalist viewpoint. But one has to deal with these kinds of hate-mongrers by using their methods and sources.
Bali Ji! Thanks for recommending my name for 'Moderator', but I would politely decline due to multiple personal and professional reasons. I am very much convinced that Safir Ji is doing extra-ordinary job, but if he wants to take off for a while then I will strongly suggest the name of Dullah Bhatti ji in this regard. He happens to be very balanced, impartial and objective in his viewpoint.
Zahra! Thank you very much for your sooooo polite and kind remarks.


Name: suman - June 28, 2002
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   Javed ji, Dulla Bhati ji and Sameer ji. I was very glad to read all your thought filled and generous views and words. There is no religion that preaches hatred. Not one.


Name: Imran Ahmed - June 28, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

Javed,

I can find ample verses that denounce idol worshiping and associating partners with God. But, I don't think it's going to change anything.

The point that you are missing is (which I made in my last post) is that Hindus and Muslims can co-exist peacfully without bestowing prophethood on Monkeys, Shiv Linga and what not. But some poeple will never get it!

To the propagandist (RAW sends the lousiest ones!)

For practising Muslims, religion plays far greater role in making daily choices than culture. For example, a Muslim (who is not adha tittar te adha batair!) cannot have Sausage for breakfast just as he cannot have a wine at dinner. I could go on, but what's the use?


Name: Sameer - June 28, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   suman: I just checked the meaning of reverence. It does not specifically imply bestowing sainthood from religious point of view. It means veneration, respect, homage, adoration and worshipping is only one of the possible way of revering a person. For example I have great reverence for many scientists in my area and in other areas in general. There are some I would not mind touching their feet out of great respect. It is subjective and basically a theoretical concept. There is no point draging the religion in a discussion about having deep respect for a person, particularly when the person is no longer alive. Having deep respect fot Nelson Mandela did not preceded by searching through my religious literature. It would not have mattered for me if he belonged to any religion. The criteria is simple. If I think that the good contribution of a person are much above normal individual contribution of any human, that is it. Similarly it is meaningless to talk in terms of religion above culture. It is like comparison between apples and oranges. The belief part of faith has very limited utility in practical terms. It plays no role in getting up in the morning, having breakfast, going to work, dealing with your job responsibilities, driving back, dinner and getting on to this forum. However your culture will play some limited role such as choice of food for breakfast and lunch, choice of music while on the road there is no reason to be on this website if it was not for cultural reasons.

One thing I can say with confidence that our Sufis would not had this much respect and success if their message was same and presented in the same tone as we have witnessed by few. How could have a Sufi been successful if he was to say that after conversion you should not revere anybody you revered before and consider your culture and traditions pagan or secondary to the faith? Faith does not have to come in play in making choices which are benign to religion. What has my faith to do with my likeness for spicy food, enjoying mangoes lot more than dates and veneration of the people I think are worth revering?


Name: Javed Zaki - June 28, 2002
E-mail: Zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   [COMMENT] “The issue of Muslim reverence/regards for believers and deities of other religions.”

Suman Ji, Imran te Kamran! First of all I will strongly urge the moderator to repost Mr. Imran’s (or Mr. Kamran) latest post (if possible) wherein he accused me of have twisted references from Quran. I have spent almost last two whole days to get other references from Quran to dispel his wrong opinion and impression on the issue under-discussion. Moreover, this is very important discussion from the viewpoint to develop a social atmosphere of peaceful co-existence between Hindus and Muslims.

Mr. Imran (and Kamran), I am referring here two more Ayah from Quran and providing their exact English translation and commentary by Abdullah Yousaf Ali.

1)….Sura II (Al-Baqra), Ayah 62: “In-nulla zina aa aamanu . . . . . . . wala khoufun alaiyhum yahzanonn.”
...”Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, - Any who who believe in God and the Last Day, and work rightiousness, Shall have their rewardWith their Lord: on them will be no fear, nor shall they grieve.”

2)….Sura XXII (Al-hujj), Ayah 17: “In-nulla zina aa aamanu . . . . in nullohaha aalaa kulle she’in shaheed.”
...” Those who believe (in the Quran), Those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), And the Sabians, Christians, Magians and Polytheists, -- God will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: For God is witness of all things.”

3)….Commentry by A. Yousaf Ali on the above Ayah.

….. (2788, page 854): in both these passages “the Muslims are mentioned with the Jews, Christians and Sabians,as receiving Gos’s protection and mercy. Here besides the four religions, there is further mention of Magians (Majoosi- Fire-worshipers) and Polytheists”. Polytheists can easily be recognized as the Greeks-Romans and Egyptians of the mythical periods, and certainly Hindus of the past and the recent period.

….. (Comment 2789, page 854): “This is the only place where the Magians (Majus) are mentioned in the Quran. Their cult is very ancient one. They consider Fire as the Purest and noblest element, and worship it as a fit emblem of God. Their location was the Persian and Median uplands and the Mesopotamian valleys. Their religion was reformed by the prophet Zardusht (date uncertain, about B.B. 600 ?). Their scripture is the Zend-Avesta, the bible of the Parsis. They were “the wise men of the East” mentioned in the gospels.

Mr. Kamran and Mr. Imran! If you want to check my reference where I pointed out that some Muslims do consider deities of other religions as ‘prophets’, SEE comment # 76, page 33 of the same source. A. Yousaf Ali, while describing ‘the peoples of book’ mentioned, “But I think that in this matter (though many authorities would dissent) the term can be extended by analogy to cover earnest followers of Zoroaster, the Vedas, Buddha, Confucius and other Teachers of moral law.”

REFERENCE: “The Holy Quran : Translation and Commentary” by A. Yousaf Ali, Amana Corp., Maryland, 1983.


Name: Imran Ahmed - June 27, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:  

(Re-posted on Mr. Javed Zaki's request) javed

Don't twist the context of the ayaah. Krishna might have been a prophet and might not, only God knows. But the point is that Hindus (like other pagans) rejected the message of God and reverted to their errant ways. That's what needs to be kept in persepctive by the propnents of "deen-e-elahi".


Name: DullaBhatti - June 28, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   A little joke for the weekend. Two Punjabi poets were very good friends and one always admired, praised and phook shakaa the other publicaly...his line would be "dekho ji apne Kavi sahib di ki gall ay...eh te pahunchay hoye aadmi ne"...One day some one objected...how do you know ke he is pahuncha hoyea aadmi...you should not jhohli-chukk that much...the Admirer replied.."dekho ji main te ehna nu hamesha pahunchay hoye dekheya...har roz jadoN shaam nu main Thekay te jaanda vaan,,Kavi ji pehlaN ee othey pahunchay hunday ne.".:-)


Name: DullaBhatti - June 28, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Suman ji, right on. That was the real question..or atleast should have been. I am avid admirer of all the Punjabi Sufi poets but to be honest I don't feel any reverence in the true religious sense except may be a little for Baba Farid. When we embrace Punjabi poetry by Muslim Sufis, their religiosity does not even come to mind. When I admire their poetry it for the poetry not how pahunche hoye saint they were. In reality every great poet is a pahuncha hoyea aadmi...otherwise he won't be that great. Of course people have different interpretations of the phrase "pahuncha hoyea".:-)

similariy, if a Muslim has to admire Kabir's poetry, does not mean he is worshiping deities.


Name: suman - June 28, 2002
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   Sameer.

Re. the issue of 'revering' any Hindu figure. I think that maybe the word 'revere' has a religious connatation. So let us change it to something less emotional - how about regard or admire? And look at the issue from that angle. Secondly, if I remember right, the origin of this discussion was a statement by someone that the poems of Kabir, Tukaram et al were not seen in the same light by a certain kind of a muslim reader (there are many exceptions, thank god). My thought is that ALL mystic poets essentially write about a similar experiance and have a similar message - whether it be Kabir, Rumi, Meera, Bulla or Guru Nanak. I guess all I'm saying that it really puzzles me how anyone can so surgically chop off the messenger from the message.


Name: Imran Ahmed - June 28, 2002
E-mail: garaeen@hotmail.com
Comments:   I was counting how long before my posts get deleted. They lasted longer than I had thought. Anyway, I will interject whenever forced to. Rest assured!


Name: Bali K Deol - June 28, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   MTM ji, bahut piaari nazm likhi tusi. Dukh es gal da ki koi lok nahi samajhde, har insaan pyaar naal nahi maanda. Inj lagda te koi insaan sirf duniya ch 'zehar' paun vaaste jamme ne. Such people have my sympathy because they will never know peace within for even one moment.


Name: Bali K Deol - June 28, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Imran ji just a thought for your spiritual well being...it can't be good for you being amidst the company of so many 'pagans' here. Or are you simply testing yourself, to see if you can also pass the test that Jesus faced with Satan? Meri gal mann, te apne rooh dee soch, these misguided uneducated pagans such as myself are too far gone to hear your message of truth, perhaps your efforts would be best spent on a more easy target. Peace, brother! :-))


Name: Zahra - June 28, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Javed Zaki: While we are on the subject, I thought of introducing you to the following group that has been started by a Punjabi Lady. She has been very active in the community and is doing great work.
. http://www.womenforhumanity.org


Name: bagga - June 28, 2002
E-mail: aaa@aol.com
Comments:   Since every one is so mad these days, i came across the funniest punably lyrics yesterday. The song is by haraza singh ramta entitled 'ramta goes to africa'. So in the song our freind ramta ends up in a bar in Africa. "Othe te bethi sigi mombassa di heer saleti, menu te lagdi king kong di beti". =) The whole song is hilarous but that line takes the cake.


Name: Saeed Farani - June 28, 2002
E-mail: saeedfarani@hotmail.com
Comments:   Dear APNA friends, I feel sad reading your such comments to each other. Please do some care. Thanks. Bhai Safir Jee, no response from your side.


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - June 28, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   For Apna Friends:

Wah Maoula Teray Jag Day Loog
Jee Kar Da MaiN LaylaaN Joog

Nafsaa Nafsee Zaat Da Piyar
Aapas Day Wich Tou Takrar
Nafrat Vair LaRayaaN JagRay
Duniyaa Keetee Roog-O-Roog

Wah Maoula Teray Jag Day Loog

Dil Kalay Tay Khoon Sufaid
Wich Paaee JindRe Katdi Qaid
Ais Munafak Duniyaa Da Paee
BaiTthh Manoudi Aapaee Soog

Wah Maoula Teray Jag Day Loog

Ek Dujay Day Aayb Pay Chunday
Taanay Dainday Taanay Sunday
Ek Dujay NouN Sah NaiN Sukday
Lagda Muk Gaee Piyar Di Choog

Wah Maoula Teray Jag Day Loog


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - June 28, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   For Apna Friends:

Wah Maoula Teray Jag Day Loog
Jee Kar Da MaiN LaylaaN Joog

Nafsaa Nafsee Zaat Da Piyar
Aapas Day Wich Tou Takrar
Nafrat Vair LaRayaaN JagRay
Duniyaa Keetee Roog-O-Roog

Wah Maoula Teray Jag Day Loog

Dil Kalay Tay Khoon Sufaid
Wich Paaee JindRe Katdi Qaid Ais Munafak Duniyaa Da Paee
BaiTthh Manoudi Aapaee Soog

Wah Maoula Teray Jag Day Loog

Ek Dujay Day Aayb Pay Chunday
Taanay Dainday Taanay Sunday
Ek Dujay NouN Sah NaiN Sukday
Lagda Muk Gaee Piyar Di Choog

Wah Maoula Teray Jag Day Loog


Name: Zahra - June 27, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Well, everything aside...this is real important. I do not know if many of you have read about the Pakistani Family who died this week due to a kitchen fire by the neighbor downstairs, another Pakistani Woman. Today, in my ferry, one Indian Lady repeatedly commented, this is height of carelessness by the neighbor who got hawas bakhta as she could not control the fire in her frying pan and ran outside leaving every thing burning than putting it out. As it was an apartment complex, the floor and walls were not that strong to withstand the gust of fiery wind full of oil and fire. As a result the neigbor's place got filled with smoke and fire flames killing 5 little daughters who were found cramped in a bed with their mother, burnt to death. Father also died in this sad episode as he was in his kitchen cooking something. Ironically, one foolish woman's carelessness and stupidity led to the death of 6 family members who simply got trapped in the flames and smoke. There have been many articles in the Ferry Papers as well as other papers about the Immigrant Family from Sialkot. Some firefighters commented that in their career's history they have yet to come across such a traumatic experience of death.
After reading this sad and depressing episode, I strongly feel that women in general should not be allowed in kitchens. Men are far wiser in handling such cases. Specially, if the women are not skilled in managing the kitchen matters, they should not be allowed to pharko-fy there. Whoever let that female be in the kitchen ought to feel guilty!


Name: Bali K Deol - June 27, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   No offence Zahra, but I would not nominate you as a moderator on the forum, I think perhaps you know too that you would be a tad too adept with those scissors:-)) Just my personal opinion, as much as I enjoy some of your posts. I find it difficult to see you in that role. As you say yourself you will spare no rubbish, from reading some of your posts you term certain things as rubbish that others find no harm in, and perhaps even humour. I would suggest someone a little more neutral, someone like perhaps Suman, Javed Zaki perhaps...even I can tend to get quite emotional. :-)) By the way the post I was speaking of was the one where you wrote starting 'Suman: It was important to have that "individual" level understanding. Remember in our culture, when you talk about individual stuff that is misconceived as selfishness than as your right'....all except for the bit about 'proud of being Punjabi, what for?'


Name: Zahra - June 27, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Javed Zaki: I am sorry I did not understand your question. What are you trying to imply? Dr. Zaki, these issues will not be resolved with writing theories and saheefas. Excuse my bluntness, but a lot of these saheefas are being rull'ofied all around with no one to pay attention to those lengthy stuff. What will get attention is voice and succinct reasoning! Amnesty's note was not more than 5 lines and that's it. I sense some sensitivity whenever this gender related issue is brought to this forum. Do not tell me that genders have nothing to do in the society we live in or we grew up in? I do not want to misunderstand your stance, so I will stop here. Otherwise, I was about to state a point that someone else brought up with a question asking probably most of the readers/writers on this board have not read the literature/poetry in Punjabi. My point is that ....before I even state my point, I think I am being too critical, but I still want to state what I have on my mind. I will have to leave this thought open ended for now and will come back to rationalize it.


Name: Zahra - June 27, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Good Morning!!! I do not pay attention to people, but I do pay attention to their perspectives.

GENERAL NOTE: I have been asked to serve as a moderator on this forum, I just wanted to make something pretty clear, if I opted for that role, I ain't sparing any rubbish being posted here. So, if that will not be accepted then I want the forum participants to caste a vote against me. That way, I will not be selected. How's that? Any takers?


Name: Bali K Deol - June 27, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   I draw your attention to the words in green and red at the top of this forum...surely there are plenty of sites out there for your purpose...www.islam411.com

At least on this forum culture is the priority, and a few misguided comments are not going to change that.

Also MR Kamran, pls remove me from your email list for Khalistan mailings, thank you, regardless of whatever empathy I may or may not have with the cause, it makes me sick to see it hijacked by people with ulterior motives.


Name: Khawaja Kamran Sadiq - June 27, 2002
E-mail: kamran_khawaja@hotmail.com
Location: tor., on     can.
Comments:   Sameer Jee. Regards to your question of reverance, I stand by my position that as per Islamic Law, it is forbidden to rever any Hindu figure. The cultures you mentioned may indeed honour Hindu figures. Please keep in mind that cultural traditions are often times not consistent with the teachings of a faith. Those Muslims who choose to rever any Hindu figure[s] are surely in error. One who ascribes to this faith must realise that culture / 'Panjabiat' must remain in its respective context, and that is second priority to the faith.


Name: Sameer - June 27, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Suman: Javed Zaki has already mentioned one example of Muslims having reverence non-Muslims. Another example is of Father Jacob who is very revered in the city named after him – Jacobabad, Sindh. However, Father Jacob was a white man and belonging to the “people of the Books” according to Islam and Baba Guru Nanak not as the founder of Sikh religion but somebody with similar message as Sufis.

To your query about Muslims not having reverence for any Hindu or non-Muslim as per Islamic law is actually more like “Desi Muslims do not have reverence for any Hindu non-Muslim as per Desi Islamic Law”. In Indonesia, Malaysia and many African countries, many Hindus, Buddhists and Indigenous believers such as Shamans respectively are highly revered. Desi Muslims are a breed unto themselves in many ways.

In Indonesia, Muslims have both :Islamic names as well as Hindu names, such as Megawati Sukarnoputri, president of Indonesia. Even the former president Abdul Rehman Waheed, considered an Islamic scholar, many times spoke with admiration of Indian heritage component of Indonesian culture. Persians and Turkish people did not change their names after converting to Islam. There is absolutely nothing Islamic about Eltamush, Subuktageen, Alap-Tageen, Taimur, Babar, Hunayun or Aurangzeb names but Desi Muslims happily accepted them even accepting persianized form of Alexander as Sikander. More recently trend has been more Arabic than Persian and one hears names never heard before. Many businesses and institution names now start with Al- and –Ul- is replacing Persian –e- that is commonly used in Urdu to connect words with the meaning “of”, such as Quaid-e-Azam. Khuda Hafiz is now Allah Hafiz, Noor Karyana Store is now Al-Noor Karyana Store and so on. This new trend was started during Zia era and is continuing to this day.

I am not sure if the converts started their name changes right away or slowly in few generations of remaining as nominal Muslims with Hindu or indigenous names. My hunch is that most of the name changes came later after conversion. Day before yesterday, I posted a page from history about a person named Jasrat. Jasrat is a well-known Hindu name but this Jasrat was nominal Muslim even after many generations of conversions. Similarly Heer, Kaido, Ranjha, Sehti, Sussi and Punnu do not sound Islamic but SahibaN and Mirza clearly do. Similarly our Sufi Saint Shah Hussain was grandson of a Hindu weaver who converted and within two generations had a fully Islamic name. Anyway, it looks very cynical of a Sufi while trying to bridge the gap between two civilizations through the message of love and peace and at the same time changing names from newly converts like Pali to Qurat-Ul-Ain and Bagga to Inzimam-Ul-Haq. Whatever happened to the love of the local vernacular and culture if they went around changing names right away.

Desi Muslims that includes Punjabi Muslims love to degrade and ignore their own and accepting Persian or Arabic in the name of religion. I do not know what Wedding Invitation Cards read in East Punjab but a typical card in West Punjab reads something like this (with little spice added by me): hamari dukhtar Aansa Heer Sial wald XYZ Khan Sial ka aqd Ranjha of Takht Hazara wald XYZ Khan Ranjha key hamrah morkha unteeeeeeeeees September yaani 15 ya 16 aur koi baeed naheeN 17 Jamadi-Us-Sani baad az namaaz asr hona qarar paya hey. Note: Ma siwa Aansa Heer Sial tamaam afrad ko lassi nosh farmaney kee mamanait ho gee".

The article "Al-Basant" on the front page is along the same line but I guess you can not read Shahmukhi script.


Name: Sameer - June 27, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Here is my brief response to Shafi Aqeel's question.

Neither I denied the message of love and peace by many Sufis nor did I suggest that Sufism was not responsible for converting most of our forefathers. What I objected to was combining these two as a reason for the conversion to Islam. I said that it is a myth among Muslims based on romanticism or what is known as delusions of the grandeur. Just think about the fact that many of the Suharwardiya Sufis in cluding Rukn-Uddin Shah Alam and Makhdoom Shah JahaniaN had aristocratic lifestyles without owning any land. Guess how did they afford this lifestyle? Wazifa from the rulers is the answer.

Same is true about caste system. I did make a point of relatively weaker caste system in Punjab as compared to UP and Bihar where conversion did not succeed as good. I tried to substabtiate my argument through variety of ways including history and logic. Therefore conversion took place independent of the caste system.

I have no idea as to how you concluded and included me among Muslim or Hindu Fundamentalists. Perhaps you did not read my other posts. The post coming following this one to Suman might clear youe impression of me being fundamentalist of any kind.


Name: Javed Zaki - June 27, 2002
E-mail: Zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Zahra Ji! Few months back you; Bushra Khan, Faheem, others and I had an in-depth lengthy discussion on 'the status of women' on this forum. The issue of status of women particularly in the context of developing nations (Pakistan in special) will keep popping up due to its socio-psychological and economic significance. So, what do you think if those postings are reposted again here.


Name: Zahra - June 27, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Bali: You said "great post," please let me know which one ? If you do not specify then I will be day dreaming that all are/were great :) My ego may get inflated and then I may start carrying my nose in the air and may become full of myself. My head can go crazy as well and you know what happens afterwards! Please clarify.
I wanted to say something in Punjabi, but if I write something in Punjabi that gets criticized. If I do that in Urdu that is ridiculed, if I take a shot at English the insecure ones do not let it go as well. Kee Kuryae?


Name: Saleem Asghar - June 27, 2002
E-mail: saleem_asghar25@yahoo.com
Comments:   In response to questions by ”Shafi Aqeel”: I know where these questions are coming from, but leaving that alone, here are a few simple answers. (I have stated many times that let us end the discussions on religious practices and the re-discovery of sufis that is so dear to some).

Question 2: “discussing cast system is attacking Hindu religion and should be avoided. a. kumar's appreciation by sameer indicates this. i might be wrong but this is the impression one gets.”

No sir, that is not right. Go back and read the relevant postings. Merely discussing caste system or criticizing it may not be an attack on Hindu religion if it is done in a proper way. The way it was claimed to be the cause of “degeneration” of Hindu society 1000 years ago and consequently the main cause of Ghauri’s military success in India (ignoring the real causes) was derogatory to Hindu religion. Why don’t you understand that? Kumar had given a good explanation and that should be enough. Do not keep on defending. Anyone can make a mistake, can be careless and insensitive or tactless in writing, just accept it. Let us not act as if when someone points out our mistake we must not rest until we have cleared our good name. My suggestion is very simple: Let go, please let go.

Qustion: 4: “consequently, smeer and saleem (along with kumar) has a common ground that (a) sufis had no social content other than spiritual uplifting ”

Same story. Rehashing what has been explained in detail. We are not denying the social content of Sufi’s message. But presenting it as the main, the one and only purpose of Sufism in combination with complete denial of their real purpose – their search for union with God - is wrong. And then extending this view to prove that sufi’s were nothing but social revolutionaries – that is wrong. Get it?

Finally, how presumptuous to say that “My last comment for now is that most participant on this discussion forum are punjabis who have not studied punjabi literature as they may have studied urdu and hindi.” They have, but they have not studied the text with only and only one purpose in mind – to prove that sufi’s were the forerunners of twentieth century revolutionaries. Even when reading Urdu/Hindi poetry they are smart enough to know the real meanings behind “sharab”and “saaqi” and “maykhana” instead of reaching sweeping conclusions by only looking at literal meanings.

But dear, why such desperation and appearing under different IDs? I wish we are not losing sleep on being challenged on this forum. It doesn’t look good. I recommend reading some Punjabi Sufi poetry in the right light to gain some wisdom and mental peace. Baba Farid’s Kalam can help in appreciating the true value of humility and the dangers of false pride.


Name: Bali K Deol - June 27, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Ji Aaya Nu Shazad BHAJI,...samajh ge naa??... tusi vee jinna marzi likho, kise nu kyon kehna hazoor?

Sajid, kaanu malookri jahi nu badnaam karee jaNde ho? ;-))

Very interesting discussion of the status of women going on, I will also write down a few thoughts later. Zahra, great post!


Name: shahzad maqbool - June 27, 2002
E-mail: pattokee@hotmail.com
Location: islamabad,      pakistan
Comments:   Jaswal,same problem is with me...means we have a,dispute of land with our uncle....this is not good punjabi tradition...means and my plan is that when dispute will solve i'll go for higher studies to foreign country...but it doesn't seems to solve,zameen saday naan way ,laikin... samajh gay na,is liyay pareshaan naheein hona... bye


Name: shahzad maqbool - June 27, 2002
E-mail: pattokee@hotmail.com
Location: islamabad,      pakistan
Comments:   Hello Sajid chaudhry,i am thankful to God that i got first day a friend and his name is sajid....sajid i am thankful to you to rsponding me yaar...and yes you are right ...XXXXXXX ......aur suna...what are you doing now a days... it's good forum for punjabi's discussion i liked it much ... for XXXXXXXXXXXXXX...... and good wishes for all of you.. take care,good bye...


Name: Jaswal - June 27, 2002
E-mail: arjunjaswal@yahoo.com
My URL:
Comments:   Hey DB, do/tin mahine pahela, you were talking about your jameen in punjab. fer ki keeta ohda? vech ditti? Seems like I'm goin' to be facing a similar situation very soon...
     Pao Bhangrey      _O_/     \_O_/    / ))       ((      \\       //      //       \\ 


Name: Javed Zaki - June 27, 2002
E-mail: Zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   [Correction] In my last posting, the line "...his holiness Baba Guru Nanak ji has been (is) revered among Muslims, too" should be read as "revered by Muslims, too."


Name: Javed Zaki - June 27, 2002
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Suman Ji! Mr. Kamran is not right on the account that "Islam does not allow any reverence to Hindu deities." One has to carefully read chapter 11 (Hud, Ayah 50 and 61), which is very relevant to the saying in the Quran that ‘we have sent prophets to every nation (and tribe)’. In Quran, Muslims are also addressed ‘not to say any thing bad about others’ Gods so that they should not be enticed to reciprocate in the same manner about their God.’ There are Muslims who, in the light of these sayings in Quran, believe in the prophet-hood of Krishna, Buddha, Confucius and even Zartusht and show great reverence for them. Moreover, his esteemed holiness ‘Baba Guru Nanak Ji has been (is) revered very much among Muslims, too. One has to visit Nankana Sahib, District Sheikhupura in Pakistani Punjab, to observe it. People of Nankana Sahib are involved in the construction of a multi-purpose complex (school, technical training etc.) dedicated to Guru Nanak Ji (The complex has been started by The Guru Nanak Foundation – an NGO). I humbly donated all earnings from the Gurmukhi version of my book “KaangaaN” for this noble cause.


Name: DullaBhatti - June 27, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   An addendum to the last paragraph in the post. When we were in engineering school just a decade ago( I did it very young...I was only 16 then..believe me I am not lying:-)), hardly half a dozen girls in each batch. One of my professors told me on e-mail lately that it is now 40/60. In some cases like Comp science, girls are in majority(that kind of made me wish I was born 12 yrs late:-)).


Name: DullaBhatti - June 27, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Many of our problems are problems of the third world people. After being technogically and financially under-developed(yes partly our won fault...just like rest of 3/4 of the globe), geographically invaded by every airra gaira nathoo khaira of the region for centuries most of the "bad" things we are talking have become part of our popular culture or individual habbit. Some of things we developed as shields to survive has become gall wich chhuriyan de haar e.g. sons might have been more beneficial when you have to move around every other week to save your life from chasing hords. but for God's sake it is 21st century and rest of world is living in it..may be we should move into it too. There is no doubt that such issues need to be explored, talked about without impunity and better alternatives, habbits and thoughts encouraged but that does not mean that we have nothing to be proud of as Punjabis. we do... as many us are proud of being Pakistani or Indian. What social problem do Punjabis have that Pakistan or India does not have? still many of us will lehra the respective jhandas and even die and kill doing so and not tolerate a word of disrespect towards our countries but we would easily diss out punjab/Punjabis wholesale just because some idiots can't get through there thick skull that times have changed. I think things are changing and will change more..speed of change is going exponentially up with the communications and interaction between people. Ideally no one should be proud of anything..remember it signifies ego that our saints and poets have warned us against but in reality we all take pride in something or else collectively..language, culture, country etc and whatever. There is no sense in throwing away one of these in a moment of ecstasy and embracing something else even more zealously. At least I have not seen anyone dissing one's language and land....culture ..yes...political established ..yes all the times...culture is fluid and changing...country is too mostly...if we don't criticize it, we will accept it as it and it won't change..it will decay sooner or later.

Zahra, about your friend from rural area and conservative background....these people have the highest barriers to cross and when few them succeed it needs to be applauded. It is not the manzil, it is also the path you traveled for it. Results of Matriculation exam was declared couple of days ago in East Punjab. Guess what 3 of the top 4 were from schools of rural Punjab small towns and aaaaalllllll four...drumm rolls please..all 4 are girls.


Name: Shafi Aqeel - June 26, 2002
E-mail: shafi50@hotmail.com
Comments:   I am Punjabi based Punjabi and have been introduced to this homepage recently. Fantastic. I am one of the admirers of your discussion forum and have read almost all links. I have a few questions regarding recent posts by sameer, manzur, kumar saleem etl.

To summerize sameer's argument I find the following: 1. cast system was broken and brought to end in Punjab by invaders when sufi (basically, i am only speaking of punjabi sufi poets) entered the scene. Therefore, they could have no or marginal imapact on Punjabi society as argued by manzur (manzur might be overblowing the impact a bit also).

2. discussing cast system is attacking Hindu religion and should be avoided. a. kumar's appreciation by sameer indicates this. i might be wrong but this is the impression one gets.

3. most sufis were intelligence dastas of muslim rulers and had no effective intellectual content. or they were mere spirtual leaders of muslims for internal safai as saleem has been arguing against manzur

. 4. consequently, smeer and saleem (along with kumar) has a common ground that (a) sufis had no social content other than spirtual uplifting or spying (b)crtical evaluation of religiously sanctioned social norms is wrong; neither muslim theocracy nor hindu cast system should be discussed for peacful co-existance.

I can go on with this to show how two fundamentalist thoughts (Muslim and Hindu) are finding common grounds. Is my assessment correct?

I will present my views later but i wanted to make sure i understood correctly. My last comment for now is that most participant on this discussion forum are punjabis who have not studied punjabi literature as they may have studied urdu and hindi. Therefore, no discussion takes place on Punjabi texts. I hope my impression is totally wrong.


Name: Zahra - June 26, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Suman: It was important to have that "individual" level understanding. Remember in our culture, when you talk about individual stuff that is misconceived as selfishness than as your right. There is so much sham and fakeness even in these bradaris bs that one starts feeling disgusted. The other very commonly sick practice is that women take a lot of pride in what their hsubands are. What about themselves? Where do they stand? There is a big issue with women who did not achieve or reach to the best of their capabilities and started thinking that the positions their family men held, they are at the same place. These issues are isolated cases and found in a certain class, but I cannot tell you how annoying they can be. All the more reason women ought to be able to explore the best potential they have. I have read Sameer's article in which he talks about giving women the right to be elected and stuff...I do not want to be elected to create a change. I ought to be able to accomplish what I want to do in my life for myself first only then can I have the compassion and realization for others. I may be wrong but I think that will be a far solid case. Accepatnce comes with something else...I do not know what the exact formula is; and I do not want to take a guess.
Pakistan is a confused state at the moment. The educated class is where they were and they are still progressing and heading to the road to eldorado. There are different theories that can be applicable here. Women should be elected and given the right to make a change, but that's not it. What if that female is elected and is at a respectable position; but behind the scenes she gets regular beatings by her husband? What was going on with Benazir,an educated woman? Did anything change? Many other forums find Tehmina Durrani very intriguing as she spoke about the ins and outs of her married life with Khar in My Feudal Lord[a.d.c]. Equally despicable are those who considered him Sharae' Punjab! Which sane woman would like to sit in an assembly with such disgusting fellows? Yes, that can be considered a person matter. But when these personal matters become international dilemmas and demean the culture of that country, something ought to be done. Jootian ought to be given to those who ever called suc figures as "Shaerae' Punjab." What else is sickness? Pakistani government is taking positive steps in bringing women leaders to the limelight, but unless the masses do not start taking their daughters, wives and other family women in that capacity nothing will happen.

What is there to be proud of? Punjabis feel proud of what? Can anyone explain that to me? Because they are Punj-abi or for some other good reason? As many are very sensitive on this issues so I better explain. I have simple disgust for those who use the word, sons of the soil. What is that implying? It's a screwed up nation who looks up to the sons and disregards the daughters as they are/will be married of. After all these so called people also got married to someone to reproduce sons and daughters. The whole thing about our culture revolves around reproduction. All the more reason, when these uncouths get married with their halfcooked brains in their gittas, they produce equally deranged kids. And the cycle goes on. Honor is completely misunderstood and misread in our part of the world.
While I am stating all the negatives, I must point out the positive as well. This was about a colleague in engineering university with me who came from a very conservative background and topped in her pre-engineering exams. Her district took so much pride in her that they awarded her with full scholarship to the school of her choice. She got multiple awards and had full assistantship during her tenure in UET, Lahore. She was from Toba Tek Singh and that's something so unique and beautiful that I always quote this episode wherever I write. These are the people I would love to associate with. I do not even know who were those who acknowledged her but I get so deeply touched by their gesture and the difference they made in my colleague's life. Suman, I must mention that because of the trust and confidence that was bestowed upon her by the people in her town, she made major decisions in her life on her own. So, let's also add another thought here: Acceptance, Recognition and Respect.


Name: suman - June 26, 2002
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   Zahra. Yup, I used the word 'respect' too loosely. You were much more precise. What I should have said was that a woman should be free to make decisions about her life. This choice is her right and this right must be accepted and respected. A society that does not question this right is a society that respects women - it is in this sense that I used the word. No question but that an individual can only win respect thru their actions and accomplishments and regardless of gender.


Name: DullaBhatti - June 26, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   My personal belief is that prayers don't help to change the outcome of the situation but they certainly help to cope with the unpleasant/undesirable outcome. It is easy to say... well you did not pray hard enough or well enough and with clear enough conscious or whatever...but what do you mean by that? have you ever done it yourself?(rhetorical question..not for you you)if one can collect himself well enough, concentrate enough and have faith enough to pray the "best", he/she has already achieved the result of the prayer that is to cope with the situation.

When I see 5 waqat namaazi sikhs, hindus, muslims running around like crazy after materials, taking bribes, giving bribes, aborting girls, getting angry, getting sleepless just like other non-namaazis...your chinese friend sounds right.


Name: Zahra - June 26, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   This is no exactly related to the points under discussion and I have been thinking of attaching it to my posts in some context, but I have not been very successful in doing so. It's standalone issue. This is not a sermon or in anyway a something out of this world, but this was a rude awakening.
I ran into a chinese lady a month or so back at one of the business women's network. I was in my own thoughts when we started exchanging pleasantries in the elevator on our way out. I very strongly believe that we meet people for some reason in our life. The more the diversity of mindsets the better the perspectives you gain. She turned out to be a staunch follower of a practice known as Falun Dafa and she tried to invite me to one of their meditation groups in Central Park. I plan on going for the sake of experience. But our conversation led us to a dinner meeting. I introduced her to my belief system and was discussing with her the crux of what is belief and faith. She made a comment that was extremely provocative. She said, "I do not understand that when prayers are supposed to be thanking God and keeping yourself on the right path. How come the practitioners do not gather serenity from those prayers? How come they are still so discontent?" I just listened. On the same end, I have been in conversation with a few other friends, who have been going through changes in life and complain about the fact that they are praying and praying but their prayers are not yielding any positive results. To the chinese lady, my response was a very personal response. I do not believe in responding on behalf of the whole muslim ummah because there are all kinds of people in all faiths. I just spoke about my personal views and the fabric they are made of. When I talked to my other friend, I ended up taking a bold step by telling her that if you are praying that sincerely you should not be that pessimistic. There is something wrong somewhere. My chinese friend's(this is one of those instances that I met someone the first time and felt like considering a friend)remarks amde me jolt my other friend. What happened aftewards is another story. But I wanted to state this episode in terms of our beliefs and their results. By the way, Falun Dafa's theory revolved around compassion, truth and peace(i am not very sure on the last one).


Name: Zahra - June 26, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Suman: I disagree on the aspect of "respect." In fact, there was a time after my graduation that I abhorred this terminology. Why should I be respected and a guy shouldn't be? Just because I am a female? A person should be respected for what they have to offer to their community and what they have to add to their surroundings. But just respecting based on gender is a little outdated now. Yes, there are certain things that men are nOt very careful about, for instance, uncouthness and vulgarities...but that's all in one's upbringing.
Respect should be changed to "Accept." It has been almost 7 years that I have been working in the US and even living in the wild wild west, one does come across gender related issues of different nature. At times, they are even "acceptance" related issues here in the corporate US. I have come across people who were brought up in very rigid environment where mother's say did not mean that much. So, they ended up considering women not capable of being at management position or strongheaded and forthright. But I did see people changing and respecting the perspectives despite coming from those closeminded shells. So acceptance and respect should go side by side or may be a result of each other. I guess when you come that far and you pick up a journal or an amnesty mailing that talks about the basics of acceptance, it's very demotivating. This is what really puts Pakistan's position in jeopardy in the world. On the one end, women like Benazir,Maleeha Lodhi, Asma Jehangir, Talat Siddiqui, Sara Sulehri, Nafees Sadik and many others are right in the face, but on the other end you read Zafraan Bibi, Saima Sarwar and various others in the media. The media does not give a lot of coverage to the accomplished ones despite acknowledging that. The media portrays the worst impression of Pakistan by bringing the horrifying stories. Even sitting so far away, it would send shivers down one's spine(only if you have any sensitivity left in you). Sadly, when one is in Pakistan, these stories do not mean much to you, as you think that they are not applicable to you or you have never seen those gross pictures in your family, friends and etc...

DB: Many things have been talked about gender related issues and concerns on this board. But each person's concern is his/her observation, concern and perspective. Being a single person, somehow I cannot relate to what women go through in this case that you have mentioned. In fact, I am disgusted to read that. Mainly because those women are not producing babies on their own. It's a couple who is involved in this picture unless the female went for another way. The woman just kept the baby in her womb as that's how nature has created her. Men cannot do that as nature was not flexible enough for this change. In the end, I just want to say that it's the SOCH(Mindset)that has to change. Rest will adapt itself in the required mould. Men and Women are very different from each other. Again, when you accept a person's individuality then the chances for you to respect that person regardless of his/her gender are higher. If you do not even allow that fellow to be an individual and keep on throwing the kumbal of a bradari or caste that does not work out. I simple abhor these practices. I simply detest such people.


Name: suman - June 26, 2002
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   Sameerji. Very interesting article, certainly hit the nail on the head. One of the solutions - about 50% of the vote for women, is not going to happen. But I dont imagine you were expecting that. I think that maybe a combination of the anger of women and the education of men might engender a slow change in society. I was rather taken aback to read Kamrans comment that "as per Islamic law' a muslim is not 'permitted' to have 'reverence' for any hindu thinker or thought. Is this true?


Name: DullaBhatti - June 26, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Kumar: Welcome back. I made the last comment on your name to see if you are still reading. Glad you do. Keep participating. We have this attitude that debate and particularly controversial debate is always bad..it is not...always some good stuff comes out of it. If we are not going debate here then what kind of forum we want it to be?..just patting each for nothing? I don't think so. Debate is healthy and for a healthy debate it is needed that we follow some minimum decorum. It is natural to come off as harsh or sometimes angry during debates. Most of times it about the argument but if it about the person then nothing wrong coming back after the debate and shake hands like good pehalwan's in the akhaaRa. Anyway...don't disappear..stay around!


Name: Sameer - June 26, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   suman: Here is an article you might enjoy reading.

http://www.chowk.com/bin/showa.cgi?sameer_feb1702

Kumar Sahib: Please keep contributing your thoughts. I found them very valuable. Don't you think it is unreasonable to expect 100+ million Punjabis to completely agree about everything? Sometime it is even beneficial for contributors as well as visitors to read opposing viewpoints and then think rationally keeping in mind the larger picture of better understanding. The broadness of Hinduism or indigenous Indian Philosophical thoughts has a history of accomodating and respecting opposite viewpoints such as relationship between Atman (self) and Brahman (absolute reality) during Upanishad period, relationship between causality and effect and dualism and non-dualism of the nature of reality during vedanta period and many other areas. I absolutely agree that ethical, moral and social laws, according to religions, are not independent of time and location.


Name: suman - June 26, 2002
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   DB ji and Zahra. There is a saying (which I cannot quote exactly) from a Sanskrit text (cannot remember which one) but the gist is that a society that does not respect its women is a society in decay. Any thoughts? The story, BTW, is a very sad one and and also one that is heard too often.


Name: Sajid Chaudhry - June 26, 2002
E-mail: sajid_nadeem_ch@hotmail.com
My URL: http://www.apnaorg.com
Comments:   Shahzad Maqbool Ji...
Jee aayaN noo Jnaab.JadoN tusi darkhwast daakhil-e-dafter kar ditti te samjho tusi member ve ban gaey. Hun Lassi da jug piyo te sukoon karo.Aik BaRa AQALMANDI da mashwra diaaN jnaab noo keh Bali ji diaN gallaN hundiaN te bohat changiaN wa per ay da chaska baRa bura ay. Fer mere wangooN raat de 3 wajay tak baith kay SWARAJ suno gay te lag pata jaye ga :) Te dooji gal aih keh tusi jnaab APNA CHAT te jao te apna nick bana lavo te password ve apni marzi da laao.Par menoo umeed ay tusi do char din ja kay te na umeed ho jao gaey kiyun keh sajjan beli odher noo moonh e nahi karday. SariaN noo forum da chaska pey gya ay :).
Just kidding dear. You are most welcome here.
Sajid Amjad Ji.. Twanoo ve guidence di koi laR nahi ay jo karna painda ay forum vich aan laee oh tusi pehlaN e kar laya ay :)
Khush Rawo


Name: a. n. kumar - June 26, 2002
E-mail: ankumar1986@hotmail.com
Comments:   Dulla Bhatti sahib! i had made my point. hope others will remember to be sensitive about each others religious feelings. we can't and shouldn't see and judge past societies and religious practices on todays standards. otherwise we all have skeletons in our closets. all of us, hindu , sikh, musalmans were defeated and subjugated by others at one time or another. i can point to many causes of degeneration that were religion based in others. but why do that? so be fair. i understand you not liking caste system , even in the past. understand that i don't like many of yours religion things in the past and even now. so mr. musalman historian, your view of histoy is not the only view. it is better if we very careful when talking about others religion. thanks to others who reponded, specially jaswal. now i see no need to continue on this point.


Name: shahzad maqbool - June 26, 2002
E-mail: pattokee@hotmail.com
Location: islamaabad,      pakistan
Comments:   hello to every body ,it's my first time i am on apnaorg.com and good friends...would any body guide me about hte forum,i've seen the forum little bit,i liked comments of bali ka deol specially.....hi to her...i enjoyed her (bali k deol's ) comments'.....and also i want to know information that i have submitted form for membership but i've not recieveed my userid and password... can i chat on apnaorg.com bye


Name: Sajid Amjad Sajid - June 26, 2002
E-mail: sajidamjad@sajidamjad.s5.com
My URL: http://www.sajidamjad.s5.com
Location: Dubai,      UAE
Comments:   I am new commer in this section. Would anybody guide me about the usage of this section. I will appreciate if anybody send me an email.
Thanks
Sajid Amjad SAjid
Dubai


Name: DullaBhatti - June 26, 2002
E-mail: DullaBhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Zahra, that is a very good subject to talk about. Please add more of your thoughts on that. This forum is not well structured to follow threads of discussions so sometimes people go off in tagents and gallaN gallaN wich gall kitay hor nikal jaandi ay...but that does not mean there are certain subjects being avoided deliberately. Lot of people are complaining about discussions going on. bhai if you don't like the subject introduce your own and follow up. it is very easy to break a on going discussion and take it in totally different direction(one advantage/disadvantage of this type of forum) like just happened few days ago(now that we are realizing that there was probably no Mr. Kumar:-)).

On women's issues,let me share a personal story( I know you like these...even if they are a bit long to read:-P) that sent shivers through my spine few weeks ago. I know this couple...call them friends, relatives, neighbours whatever...but have been fairly close at times. The guy always portrayed himself liberal( was some times I observed), educated(he is)and very fair and honest person. They had 2 daughters in a row and from my limited interaction I felt that they were ok with it...in fact he told me once it does not matter to him and his family whether it is a girl or a boy. then few years has past and few weeks ago, one day news broke to me that they are almost close to divorce. issue: family of the guy and the guy wants a boy and have gone to some advanced medical treatment to "correct" the "problem" but has failed adding more financial strains to the relationship. That was a very rude awakening for me on how I could not judge these ppl for years. when I met that girl in the gurdwara(story below, from yesterday)...that was another feeling that came to my mind...why our girls ..beautiful, inteliigent, confident as little angels has to go through this trrbal attitude and desire of ours to have multiple sons like we are some kind of maharajas. I can understand(better than many) the desire to have a son or daughter by a parent but at the cost of dumping your partner who has already bore you two beautiful lives and spent years of her life dedicated to you...how can one live through that deceitful and lowest level of thought/act? yet our ancestors and we have been doing it from days unknown. Girls have become an unwanted "thing", women only a means to give us sons that can fight our shareeks or guys from accross the border. Desire to have sons is found in many other people also..however girls don't devstate them and wrech theri lives but the way Punjabis have been doing it at the cost of girls makes me sick. The pre-netal testing and then abortion of unborn girls amongst Punjabis has reached the land of equal opportunities America also! It is not limited to Ludhiana anymore. New York has it, LA and Yubacity have it too..we have it everywhere we go.

now how a girl that can't live in her mothers womb by her choice can live to be 25 yr old Seema Sarwar and make choices?


Name: Zahra - June 25, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Some Thoughts...
While the forum's monsoon is going on an on, I just wanted to share the mailing I received from Amnesty International just a few days back. The theme revolved around Women's Rights and said: Women Rights are Human Rights. I was casually flipping through the cute looking sticker when I came across a request that was addressed to Punjab's Governer, Mr. Safdar, Lahore... On the one end, I was happy that Amnesty International has taken a stand on Saima Sarwar's case and have been very vocal on that; but on the other end, I was very sad to see my hometown's name in that context. Lahore has been a city of educational institutions with quality people. I guess probably quality has its own highs and lows. I keep on hearing the phoon phaan on who is who, in terms of their caste and creed. It's fine to feel proud of one's lineage, but it's very sad to ignore the prevalent issues and harping the tune announcing one's lineage only. I guess we need to collectively concentrate on the image that we have created and try to simplify it than complicate it.
Again, if one analyzes what our poets and sages have uttered, we would realize that we, as a community, ethnicity, race whatever, are far far away from practicing or absorbing the crux of our elders' teachings. I mean what is the sense of that pooja paat that does not touch one's heart and leaves a lasting impact!


Name: Sameer - June 25, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   I think it is appropriate to keep discussing whatever relates to Punjab and add to the knowledge of readers about Punjab. A couple of years ago I wrote an essay about a historic Punjabi figure named Jasrat Gakkhar. History written from the standpoint of rulers often does not do justice to leader of popular uprisings against them. Later historians often rely on these one-sided accounts such as Tareekh-e-Akbar Shahi etc. That is why Jasrat is often mentioned in denegrating terms terms, such as "Ravages of Jasrat Gakkhar". Since the recent discussion about Sufism revolved around the same time frame, the Delhi Sultanate, it is appropriate to learn more about the conditions that existed during this period and how difficult it was for the rulers to control Punjab. Before I copy part of that essay, let me reproduce what Babar gas supposed to have said upon arriving Delhi

"In spite of well over three centuries of almost unbroken rule, the famished Indian peasant wrote lungi and ate khichri and frequently shifted his hamlet and village to avoid the wrath of nature and the tyranny of the state. He (the people) lost all sense of pleasure, his genius was stunted, his mind was subdued and his heart became rude" noted Babur, on Indian affairs from the epitaph of the Delhi Sultanates, in Babur Namah.

Now about Jasrat:

The invasion of Timur exposed the hollowness of Delhi Sultanate in north India. A large number of leaders of native rose up and some even supported Timur out of disgust for Sultanate. The chief of Khokhar (Gakkhars according to some historians) tribe named Shaikha was one of them. After the fall of Delhi at the hands of Timur, Shaikha defected and captured Lahore. Timur recaptured Lahore on his way back from Delhi, got Shaikha beheaded on March 5, 1399 and took his son Jasrat to Samarkand as a captive. After the death of Timur, Jasrat escaped from his prison, returned home, assumed the leadership of his tribe and set himself up at Sialkot. This was the beginning of a remarkable career, lasting almost 40 years, which began during Mahmud Tughlaq reign but most of it occurred during the reign of Syeds (Sadat) Sultanate.

His first act was to side with Shahi Khan against Ali Shah in the civil war in Kashmir. The backing of victorious Shahi Khan made Jasrat powerful and well equipped to conceive of conquering Delhi. He was joined by another great rebel, Tughan Rai, who had just lost a rebellion against Syed Khizar Khan (Founder of Syeds Sultanate). Together they swooped across the rivers Ravi, Sutlej and Beas and defeated the governor of Ludhiana, Rai Kamal-ud-din Firoz at Talwandi. Encouraged by the victory, he captured areas as far as Ropar and laid siege to Jullundhar. The new Sultan, Syed Mubarak Shah moved against him in October 1421, retaking most of the area from Jasrat but failed to capture him.

In the next act of his career, he assaulted Lahore in May 1422 with a large force which apparently he had no difficulty in collecting from his hideout in the hills surrounding Jammu (an indication of widespread discontent and frustration with the rulers). He tried twice but each time was defeated by Lahore governor, Mahmud Hassan, with help from Raja Bhim of Jammu.

In April 1423, Jasrat emerged from his abode, attacked Raja Bhim of Jammu (a supporter of Sultanate) and killed him. Not only did he remove a thorn from his side, but also took possession of large reserves of arms and treasure, increasing his strength. With a force of 10,000-12,000 strong, he sacked Lahore and Dipalpur. When governor of Punjab, Malik Sikander Tuhfa encountered him with a much larger force, Jasrat promptly withdrew from the contest. In 1427, he saw a window of opportunity when royal armies were busy in quelling the uprising in Mewat and Bayana. He appeared from his hideout and laid siege to Kalanaur. The Sultan deputed a large army against him but just before its arrival, Jasrat retreated to his abode.

In 1430, a slave of Syeds, Faulad Turkbaccha, revolted against Syeds, allured ruler of Kabul, Shaikh Ali, for help. The Khokhars, under the leadership of a minor leader Ain-ud-Din joined Shaikh Ali during his attacks on Punjab, Malik Sikander Tuhfa and Syeds Sultanate. Taking advanatage of the weakened Sultanate position, Jasrat reemerged from the hills, crossed rivers Chenab, Ravi and Beas, defeating Malik Sikander Tuhfa at Jullundhar in 1431. He arrested Malik Tuhfa and recaptured Lahore. As usual, when Sultan marched from Delhi with a large force, Jasrat had no option but to withdraw.

As soon as, Sultan withdrew and moved his armies to Gwalior and Bayana to quell another rebellion, Jasrat captured Lahore for the third time in 1432, from remaining Sultanate armies. And once again he had to retreat with the arrival of fresh Sultnate armies. In 1433, Sultan Syed Mubarak Shah replaced Nusrat Khan with Allahabad Kaka Lodhi as the governor of this region. Jasrat, immediately took the advantage of changeover, marched to Bajwara and defeated the new governor. Sultan Syed Mubarak Shah was assassinated in 1434.

The rise of Bahlol Lodhi that ultimately led to the changeover of Sultanate from Syeds to Lodhis also marks an end of a remarkable career of Jasrat. He was getting old and saw no chance of fulfilling his dream of eliminating the yoke of Turkish/ Afghan rule over sub-continent. As a last resort, he made a pact with Bahlol Lodhi promising not to interfere with Bahlol's design to capture the throne in return for Bahlol not attacking Jasrat's people and hometown on both sides of lower river Jhelum. Jasrat died in 1442.

Now this was the period that saw greatest conversion to Islam. Whether to consider him a hero, a trouble maker or a rebel is ome question Punjabis must think about. And the poor grip, Delhi Sultanate had in Punjab that a rebel can rise up from lower river Jhelum, sets up his headquarter in Sialkot and influences as far as Kashmir is the other question. Obviously his support was not limited to Gakkhar tribe only.


Name: Zahra - June 25, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   I also suggest a note in Purple saying: Positive comments on the forum participants are highly encouraged :)!


Name: Safir Rammah - June 25, 2002
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
Location: Fairfax, Va     USA
Comments:   Friends: I have been out of touch with the discussion on this forum for a while. It is great to see that it is alive and robust as usual. Although I want to keep any interference and moderation of this forum to a minimum, I do see a need to remind that the purpose here is to explore all points of views openly. To do that, we must avoid any personal criticism to allow everyone to talk freely. Let us not criticize any participant just because we don’t agree with that person’s ideas.

I must note that the discussions on this forum are read by a large number of people. APNA web page is now getting around 30,000 hits a day and approx. 100,000 unique visitors a month. On August 1, we will start a new project to post at least four complete books in Gurmukhi script each month. The idea of a bi-script magazine is also in the works. We are also in the process of acquiring a lot more music by relatively unknown Punjabi folk singers. When you write here, your are actually addressing a large audience that we hope will keep on growing. I regularly receive positive feed back on the quality of discussions on this forum and would very much like to keep the high standards that you all have set here.

Thank you.


Name: Gursharan Singh - June 25, 2002
E-mail: gsinghh@hotmail.com
Location: Reston, Va     USA
Comments:   Hello To All

Laggi Nazar Aj Forum Nu Koi Aan Utaaro
Lai Ke Mirchaan Koriaan Ehde Sir To Vaaro
Sukho Ni Khand Paath Chalihey Sukho Ni
Koi Matt Di Leh Jaaye Gehar Ni.

All Tu Jalaal TuNa Matt Nu Bohut Hangaal Tu

KOI TE PYAR MOHABBAT DA THANDA JEHA BULLA AAON DEYO KE GUJHIYAAN LOYAAN NAAL SABH DA ANDR-BAHR LUHNDE RAHOGE.Paani Chon Madhaani Kadh Chado

Daad Friyaad ik Nimaane Di


Name: suman - June 25, 2002
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   Saleem. In what way was Bulle Shah a 'true muslim' and how would you describe an 'untrue' one?


Name: Saleem Asghar - June 25, 2002
E-mail: saleem_asghar25@yahoo.com
Comments:   Shah Hussain's poetry was never completely forgotten. Majlis-Shah Hussain did some good work no doubt. All Punjabi Classical Poetry got wider recognition during the last 50 years after it was widely published and sung on radio TV. Until then it was an oral tradition. Malamtiya was a branch of Sufis who not only renounced all worldly things but went a step further and even renounced any possibility of a praise or respect for them given to them. They wanted to be totally immune of others views about them. They would intentionally do things that were looked down upon by other people. Love for Madhoo by Shah Hussain was part of Sufi's believe that love for a person was a step towards gaining the ultimate love of God. Most Sufis were thus totally dedicated and in love with their murshads or teachers. Other dedicated their lives to their chosen beloved. All of that was part of spiritual exercise if seen in the right light. Nothing to get excited about Shah Hussain's love for Madhu or his drinking and dancing. Interesting to note that a XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


Name: bagga - June 25, 2002
E-mail: aaa@aol.com
Comments:   Saleem i dont know what goes on with the politics of this forum, i've only been here for a couple of weeks, but i am very interested in your thoughts on how bulleh shah was a true muslim.


Name: Manzur Ejaz - June 25, 2002
E-mail: manzurejaz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Dhulla Bhatti ji, Shah Husain had a special affinity with your name. It is reported that he was seen on the scene when Dhulla Bhatti was hanged in Lahore. Some have said that Dhulla Bhatti had some kind of a link with him. Najm Hussain Syed's play Takht Lahore has explored their indirect relationship. Shah Hussain was called Malmatia because of his anti-conventional life style. Having his head, moustaches, eyebrows shaved, he would dance and drink wine in the open... It is said that in his ceremony of induction, drinking wine (with him) was considred essential along with with shaving head, eyebrows etc. A bottle of wine used to be 'chrawah' on his annual uras/fair called Maila Charaghan. Within the boundries of Uras, great extent of freedom of mixing (male-female) was granted. Many things have changed in the last 50 years. Actually, his entire poetry was forgotten till Majlis Shah Hussain Lahore made efforts to revive it.
He was in love with Madhoo (a male) and owned his passion publically. This is why he is called Madhoo Lal Hussain. Madhoo's grave is next to his grave.
I have given the malamat side of his personality. Otherwise he was a great scholar and one of the foremost poet of Punjabi.


Name: Saleem Asghar - June 25, 2002
E-mail: saleem_asghar25@yahoo.com
Comments:   XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Here is the complete translation (not mine). Now why don’t you come out in open and try to prove your point of sufi’s rejection of religion, etc., because you clearly believe that this poem proves it otherwise you wouldn't do the troube of posting it. Come in the open. Here is your chance. Don't forget that even after claiming in a moment of ecstasy, Ina-al- Haq, Mansoor Hillaj never denounced Islam. Although he was killed by the Khalifa for that. We still belive that Mansoor was a true Muslim, as I will show you that Bullah Shah was a true Muslim, even thoug a plain reading of this poem seems to suggest otherwise.

Ishq Di Navion Navin Bahar

Ever new, ever fresh is the spring of love!
When I learnt the lesson of love,
My heart dreaded the sight of mosques.
I then entered the abode of the Lord,
Where resounded a thousand melodies.
Ever new, ever fresh is the spring of love!
When I grasped the hint of love,
I banished ‘mine’ and ‘thine’ from me.
I was cleansed within and without.
Now, wherever I look, the Beloved pervades.
Ever new, ever fresh, is the spring of love!
Heer and Ranjha are united at last!
Deluded Heer had sought him in woods,
While beloved Ranjha played in her veil.
Before Him I lost my sense and wits.
Ever new, ever fresh is the spring of love!
I am sick of reading Vedas and Qura’ns;
My forehead is worn off by constant obeisance.
God is not found at Hindu shrines,
nor at Muslims’ Mecca.
Whosoever found, found Him as Light of lights.
Ever new, ever fresh is the spring of love!
Burn the prayer-mat, break the iota,
And touch not the rosary, nor the staff.
The lovers proclaim at the top of their voice:
“Give up halal and eat murdar!”
Ever new, ever fresh is the spring of love!


Name: Khawaja Kamran Sadiq - June 25, 2002
E-mail: kamran_khawaja@hotmail.com
Location: TORONTO, ON     CAN
Comments:   SAMEER JEE. regards to why muslims do not honour hindu figures. it is not possible as per islamic law to have 'reverance' for any hindu figure. kamran.


Name: Sameer - June 25, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   GullaBhatti: I checked the meaning of malamati from "A Glossary of Sufi Terms" through google search and it states the following.

[A designation for certain dervishes who cultivate the reprobation (a morally unprincipled person) of the conventional social sphere.]

I think malamati sufi is a terms bestowed upon certain sufis by others while chishtiya, qadriya etc are added on by sufis themselves depending on their teacher and practices. Your suggestion of dirty outside and clean inside may be true. A follower of a malamati sufi will undoubtedly believe in the pristine innerself otherwise what will be the point of following him. Malamati sufi is the term, sometime used to appreciate the other qualities of a person besides moral or Islamic. An example is famous Urdu poet Faiz Ahmed Faiz. He was a leftist/ communist, probably athiest and consumed alcohol. Many Islamists openly called him dehrya (athiest). But out of his literary qualities, another somewhat right-wing author named Ashfaq Ahmed thought that Faiz was really a malamati sufi. One only knows the deep inside when one opens it to others.


Name: DullaBhatti - June 25, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Manzur ji, zara MalamatiaN te chaan'na pao thoRha jiha!


Name: DullaBhatti - June 25, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Suman ji: I got your point. I think once the discussion started, we got carried away..me more than anyone else. I want to make two brief points though...Caste system is not only Hindu phenomenon now...sikhs and subcontinental muslims practice it too..may be to a lesser degree...but nonethless they do..so we can't be on a high horse either as a community...we can argue it is bad...but we can't say look you have this problem and we don't.....Secondly, hinduism is much bigger than just caste system.


Name: Manzur Ejaz - June 25, 2002
E-mail: manzurejaz@yahoo.com
Comments:   After reading Dr. Javed Zaki’s kafi, one of Bulleh Shah’s famous Kafi comes to mind. A very rudimentary translation. Can someone improvise and translate the rest of the kafi?
Ishaq di navuN naveeN bahar
Love is ever new spring
JaN maiN sabq ishaq da padhia, masjad kolloN jewra daria
When I got into lesson of love I became fearful of the mosque
Dairey ja thakhur dey waria, jithay wajday nad hazar
I ran into thakur’s abode where thousand nads are blown
Baid QuranaN padh padh thakey, sajdey kardiaN ghas gey mathey
[They] are exausted reading Quran and Vaids, forheads are worn out with supplication of prayers.
NaN Rab Teerath naN Rab Meccay, Jis paya tis noor anwar
God is neither in Teerath nor in Mecca, the ones who go light are blessed
Omar gawai wich maseeti, andar bharia nal paleeti
[Some] have wasted their life in the mosque and yet they are filled with filth
kadey namaz tauheed na naiti, hun keh karan ain shoor pukar
When never initiated the prayer of Oneness, then why such a noise and fury


Name: suman - June 25, 2002
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   Dulla B. Ji. You are quite right. Asi eho jai fazool aag vich kahnu chaal paiye? Vaise vi, aapaan te dooji paar pahunch gaye aan! - not in knowledge, I hasten to add, before the learned ones jump on me. Perhaps in attitude.

Look, most folks on this board seem to be educated, many live out of Punjab, (wherever that might be) and ALL have opinions. Dime a dozen. Nothing wrong with that particularly on a discussion forum. "Try to see each religion as its believer would" somebody said, and surely that applies to a number of other areas as well. But when a tone is aggressive and the words are insulting it is absolutely not possible to take that person or their opinion seriously. What are we? A bunch of apes gnashing their teeth at each other?


Name: DullaBhatti - June 25, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   It was mentioned somewhere down there in the discussion that Shah Hussain belonged to Malamati sect of sufis. I am not very clear what that stands for other than knowing few anecdotes from his life which means he used to spread rumours about himself...and project an image of himself not of saint but an dirty, awaara aadmi. He once gave a taaweez to a Mullah who wanted a son from his wife. Mullah opened it out of curiosity[don't remember whether taaweez actually worked or not..most likedly it worked and mullah wanted to harness the trick too] and it said some bad stuff about Mullah and himself in it. So I guess malamati means to spread maillee image of oneself while not being so in reality. I need some explaination on this. Also, how many were these Malamati sufies? any other famous ones besides Shah Hussain? I like the idea of being a Malamati...It sounds very interesting....but since I don't know a alpha beta gamma of this, I don't want to insult anything...although it seems hard to insult a malamati. Thanks.


Name: Javed Zaki - June 25, 2002
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Correction. Kaafi included in my last posting is my own.


Name: Sameer - June 25, 2002
E-mail: jbsameer@yahoo.com
Comments:   Dear Bali: I could have interjected myself easily into this discussion but it would not have helped bringing down the temperature. All I can say right here is that exception do not contribute to generalization even if the exceptions are of exceptional quality as some of the literary sufis were. Some Catholic priests and missioneries sent to Americas from Spain and Portugal were also of exceptional qualities, teaching message of love and peace, doing all they can to help Native Americans and opening missions for them. However, the generalized statement of Catholic encounter with Native Americans will always be a tragedy of immense proportion for Native Americans. For the first three hundred years of Christianity, the message of love and peace fell practically to deaf ears until Constantine, the Roman emperor converted.

If I were a lower caste Hindu duging 1200-1500 CE, with my livelihood depended on the services and dole outs from upper caste, I would have to be out of my mind to convert to Islam, being singled out by the bread provider Hindus leading to more hardships than before. Even the people of my own caste might have rejected me. On top of that, now I would have had to spent more time in rituals than ever before, spending more on killing goat once a year, fasting a month - all because a Sufi is spreading the message of peace and love. Too much input with speculative output in distant future which never materialized. Just one generation of converts from lower castes or any caste would have accummulated enough hardships with no rewards to set a practical example for everybody to not succumb to the sweet talk of love and peace. The conversion could not have been bottom up because it defies simple logic. It was top down and only accelerated when it was backed by the rulers.

There is around 300 years difference between first Muslims entering Indus Valley (MB Qasim) and Ghaznavi attacks. Muslims were already ruling out of Multan for couple of centuries with allegiances to Sunni, Shia and Islamili dynasties. They sent out out missioneries with the message of love and peace throughout "caste-ridden Punjab" befor Ghaznavi attack with almost no success. Both Ghaznavi and Ghauri met stiff resistabce from gakkhars and awans repeatedly until they could not fight anymore. At that weak moment, a Sufi Syed Qutb Shah came in handy with mesage of peace and equality, converting tribal elders and rest is history. Because of this early conversion, the area between Indus and Jhelum was almost 80 percent Muslims in 1947 and Master Tara Singh proposed this area to be excluded from Punjab, leaving Hindu-Muslim-Sikh population roughly equal in the remaining Punjab. Punjab was the melting pot for different migrating and invading tribes and every group bringing in new ideas. It made Punjabis more accustiom to new ideas and to accomodate the new ideas and people, a paradigm or framework or a constitutioin namely caste system was developed or accepted. It became all incorporating to the constant change in demography and social structure. Of course, once in power, be they upper caste of Hindus or Meccan elite (Ummayids and Abbasids who ruled Muslim world for 500 years), they made sure to keep milking the system.

It was Punjabi openness or accomodation of new people and ideas through millenia (Aryans, Persians, Greek, Scythians, Huns) which made Buddhism more successful in Punjab than rest of India, Bhagti movement more successful, Sikhism more successful and conversion to Islam more successful. Budhism succeeded more under Budhist rulers and Islam succeeded more under Islamic rulers.

I will send the remaining portion later as e-mail to you.

P.S.Maybe I can ask similar question like the one asked by Manzur Ejaz: "A simple question: Why Hindus,Sikhs and people of other religions have equal reverence for these thinkers? Why their message cuts accross religious boundries?" Answer: Because in indigenous desi traditions, according sainthood to ascetics and social activists is easy and the decision is made at local level.

My question is: Why do Muslims not have same reverence for great Hindu proponents of love and peace? Why didn't their message cuts across religious boundries? Ramananda, Namdeva, Tukarum (sp?), Dadu (perhaps a born-Muslim), Kabir,........


Name: Bali K Deol - June 25, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Zahra ji, apne urdu diyaaN translations likh diya karoN te bari meharbani hove, saade gareebaaN nu te eh boli hee nahi aundi :-))


Name: DullaBhatti - June 25, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Zahra & Suman ji, aweiN na sanu sharm-saar karo...waise tusi khud ainnee agg wich chhaal nai maar sakday..bass bahir baith ke siyaane bann'day O...bhai ander aao te dekho tuhade te ki label lagday ne:)


Name: DullaBhatti - June 25, 2002
E-mail: Dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   haha:-). I strongly recommend that Rammah come out of that AT&T executive suite that he got for vacation immediately. asiN aithey laRh mar rahe aan te Rammah ji aish naal recliner upper baithey..rather laitay... Punjabi music dian CDs sunn rahe ne te naal lassi dian chuskiyaN bhar rahe ne...baRha zulam ay eh taaN. Zahra, I whole heartedly congratulate you on coming out as a matured person with lot of patience. I recommend we make you the moderator in Rammah ji absence...his absence and your patience are a perfect match..both going to be short lived.:) ok I am writing this while laughing. tusi vi hass chhaddo. I think sometimes we take things too seriously. bhai discussion ee hui ay, koi qatal-e-aam te nai. Jaswal ji, gussa na karo...tusi te Saleem bass ikk dou linaN punjabi wich bolo te main phir tuhanu japhi pa lainee ay.

ps: Suman ji, I just remembered something.. I think I put it in the waiting line and then totally forgot about it. will get back soon.


Name: Zahra - June 25, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Suman: Please accept my heartiest apologies on the usage of such "appropriate" terminolgies that fit so well in the prevalent basant bahar on this forum. I wanted to mention the good points you brought up in your artist's post...they had a right perspective!


Name: suman - June 24, 2002
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   Zahra. I must admit you often say things that really make me laugh. 'Insecure, retarded and rude lunatics'! Well, I might not go quite that far, but what a peculiar discussion has been going on! Kissi da head is in caste, someone is in Ranjit Singh da zamana and others are pind vich. Nobody seems to be here or now.


Name: Zahra - June 24, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   In my "not so humble" opinion, this forum is in desperate need of moderation. When I say moderation, I do not mean that posts should be cut and trimmed and pruned and slimmed - I mean either you are here or you are not"kalaa' kamaa'". By the way, if I am the moderator, hypothetically speaking...then I will make sure all the kuss bul are straightened out for all times to come! It's the need of the day.
Lastly, just like politeness is one thing,impoliteness is another. My latest approach is to completely ignore insecure, retarded and rude lunatics on this forum or anywhere else. Sorry to all those who fall in the above category...you are not worth my time! Well, this is my recently acquired mature approach. I never entertained this previously. Well, I never entertained patience previously as well. Writing, surprisingly inculcates the terrible terrible thing known as, patience.

As the poet says...~Tajahil, Tasahil, Taghaful Keeya...Hooa' Kaam Mushkil Tavakk'ul Keeya!


Name: Bali K Deol - June 24, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   One more thing Dullabhatti ji, your story of your visit to the gurdwara and your off chance meeting with the little angel brought a huge smile to my face this morning, thanks!


Name: Bali K Deol - June 24, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Javed ji and Sameer ji I especially miss your frequent posts, apna heessa pauNde riha karo!


Name: Bali K Deol - June 24, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   You know when I first came across this forum, I loved visiting. I always left with a warm feeling, of having been amongst friends. Yes there were discussions and disagreements, but not personal attacks, except from one certain individual. Recently the trend is going from bad to worse. Everyday childish bickering and oneupmanship..the wonderful people that just used to post here seemed to have stopped. Even I must admit, I take one look most days, shake my head and leave. I have something to say to all those that are also fed up with this nonsense. Every time someone makes mindless, meaningless, remarks refuse to buy into them, and hopefully they'll get bored and go away.

My dad used to use all kinds of examples to teach me about life, being the simple 'Jatt' he was (nothing wrong in having a sense of pride in your own particular succint identity, as long as its not used as a tool to measure worth by, to put down others, or as a part of the wretched caste system, yes Jatts were told what caste they fell into, they were sandhu's dhillon's etc before that)that he was, using, usually very simple terminology. I used to laugh at the time thinking Dad is that the best you could come up with, yet now I treasure the simplicity of what he taught me. I am recalling a story where he was teaching me about the dangers of bad company, maaree sangat, and he said je fridge de vich koi maaree galee hoi cheez rakhoonge, te baaki da sab kuj vee kharaab ho jaana!

Loko, ethe na eh kamm haun devo..pyaar naal rayiye, te gaahaN kuj kar paavaaNge. Kee khyaal towada??? Eh goori goori angrezi, te urdu gets on my nerves as well. You're right Suman, its nothing to be particularly proud of. I was born and raised in the UK, I could sit here and write pages of rhethoric, and fancy English, and watch my grammar, yet its more important what is being written, and that everyone can understand easily. Wouldn't that be English with Punjabi colour? Punjabi being the common man's language. Kuj kehna te nahi see chaundi lekin as Manzur Ejaz says Enough is Enough! I'm probably going to get an onslaught after this, but really who cares, someone had to say something!


Name: Javed Zaki - June 24, 2002
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Jaswal Ji te hor dooje! The caste and class stratification system in the Indian socio-economic context tend to emerge overlapping and parallel, like many other present and the past societies, such as “The Jim Crow System” in Southern parts of the U.S.A. and the Apartheid System in South Africa. When it is held that low castes in India should only be helped out of economic necessity and not due to their caste position, it is not a different thing (please keep in mind that in my analysis here I refer caste as a collective entity). The ongoing caste/class war in Indian state of Bihar (and other states where PWG/Naxalites are active) is reflective of this overlapping. At the personal level, people may negatively OR positively be affected by the so-called “affirmative action kind of system”, but at the collective societal level the socio-economic ranking of castes in India has not changed. In urban areas of India due to the modern and post-modern improvements in the productive forces (resulting in the modernity influences) the grip of the caste system is loosening, but this view can reliably be not held in the case of rural areas.

According to some historical accounts (there are other competing accounts, too) the caste system in India evolved as a result of the invasion of Aryans in 1500-2000BC, who brought with them “Caucasian genes, a new religion, a new pantheon of gods and a new language – the Sanskrit” ( Zaman, Viqar. “Racism- Ancient and Modern, 2002). Some archeological evidences claim that in pre-Aryan period the Indian society was not so strictly caste stratified, however there must have been some kind of social differentiation system. The conquered locals were declared untouchable and the conquerors always kept a social distance. As a matter of fact, the keeping of social distance was maintained during all the Muslim monarchies and the British colonialists.

The Aryan-non-Aryan vertical differentiation was sanctified by religion (the 10th book of Reg Veda), which ultimately developed into the four castes system. There socio-economic ranking (along with rewards and punishments) was strictly defined. Sociologically speaking, it is (was) a closed social system where social mobility between castes is (was) strictly prohibited. The status or social position of a member of a caste group is (was) determined on the basis of his/her birth and inherited by the next generation. It was ordained by the religion and the institution of religion generally has an overwhelming sway over the lives of members of a society at a lower level of social formation (pre-capitalist), masses in general might have took it a natural way of living (a false consciousness). In the modern Indian context, the false consciousness became a challenge for Gandhi Ji who called caste system, the “greatest blot on Hinduism.” He struggled against it all his life but…….. In the South, Dr. Ambedkar’s struggle (a leader of untouchables) for the socio-economic emancipation of untouchables is worth mentioning. The high caste groups were particularly very cruel to untouchable in some areas of the South India. They made them to “wear bells to warn high caste Hindus that they were coming. A Brahman was believed to become dirty or polluted even if the shadow of a low-caste fell on them.” He suggested them to convert to Buddhism. In the recent past there has been conversion of whole groups to Islam, which was fiercely, objected by some extremist Hindu groups, such as VHP, Bajrang dal etc.. (By the way Saleem Ji, Ashoka the great also converted as a Buddhist). Saleem Ji! I openly claim that I subscribe to secular philosophy (not in the sense of ‘Atheism’ as it has been vulgarly translated in Urdu). I strongly believe that everyone has right to subscribe to any set of religious beliefs and this right of a person should be boldly defended. However, I do not believe in the imposition of religion as an ideology at the collective societal level. Especially for you, I am posting one of ‘Kaafi’. I hope you will not take it personal.

............”KAAFI”............

SanooN chhad de apne haal mullaaN
NaaN nafrat bhaaNbhaR baal mullaaN

AkheeN chaRhya rang musti da
Sidq adraak hoya hasti da
Noori roop sathooN basti da
Te tooN bhit-neiN saadi chaal mullaaN
...SaanooN chhad de apne haal mullaaN

Ishq shodaaee naam dharaaya
Kan paRwaae, kaasa chaaya
Ranjhan jogi heer sadaaya
AzlaaN de laj-paal mullaaN
...SanooN chhad de apne haal mullaaN

Piyaar asaade loon loon rachya
Ang ang surt da bhaaN-bhaR machya
Oho kita jheRha jichya
Hoye kundan laal mullaaN
...SanooN chhad de apne haal mullaaN

Bullhe Shah sanooN ramzaaN dasda
Samajh pavay te khiR khiR hasda
Mankh naheiN zingdi de chas da
Ishq je saadi bhaal mullaaN

...SanooN chhad de apne haal mullaaN
...NaaN nafrat bhaaN-bhaR baal mullaaN

(I am not left with any energy to proof-read it, so ...)


Name: Jaswal - June 24, 2002
E-mail: arjunjaswal@yahoo.com
My URL:
Comments:   It's funny how difference in opinion is viewed as a danger. One calls it a part of a bigger vicious campaign while the other says those who differ from me get no respect. I noticed this behavior so many times on this forum. Imran Ahmed, Saleem, Kumar, Zahra etc. are criticized by the a core group of people just because they view the world in a different way. These people are warned, attacked personally, and get their messages blocked while others who do a little bit of kissing up to the right authorities get embraced. Quite a system this forum has!! In either case, in interest of the greater goals of this forum, I'm shutting my mouth in defense of the Kumar fella who seems to have disappeared.


Name: DullaBhatti - June 24, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   What I meant was...Rabb tuhada bhalla kare.:-)


Name: DullaBhatti - June 24, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Well..this discussion could have proved fruitful, positive, and beneficial if the original claimants had come up with the list of all those very very positive roles played by caste system for many many many centuries and its benefits for mortals like us...who knows may be we would have all agreed upon it and benefited from these great gems of wisdom. now that all we are doing is aTkall-pachoo marna, this debate is dead for me. In the process few people have lost some of the respect I had. but hey..it was only a ill started debate. Let us turn this week to a different tone! God bless you aal!


Name: Manzur Ejaz - June 24, 2002
E-mail: manzurejaz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Who is a. n. kumar? Has any one checked the archives if this person ever posted a message on this board. Or his blatant message was cynically posted by someone who has other motives. Friends go back, read my posting and follow ups and who emphatically asked for apology for Mr. Kumar. Every discussion is sabotaged and peculiar meanings are derived. Innocent bystanders get sucked into it thinking that a genuine debate is taking place. No. The whole purpose is to pull down the discussion to trivial things and block the discussion on the main theme. Many friends have written to me privately that they are intimidated by vicious campaign
Enough is enough.
Only those should apologize who discriminate religious minorities and treat human beings differentially.
RANJHA AKHDA KHIAL NA PAO MERY SHAINH SAP FAQIR DA DAIS KEHA JAIHRA ZAT TE WATAN WAL DHIAN RKHAEY DUNIA DAR HEY OH DARWIASH KEHA


Name: Punjaban - June 24, 2002
E-mail: avleen@ureach.com
Comments:   So, CASTE thing also touched this Website, WALLAH!!! I thought that this site was about Punjabi Heritage not caste! Well, GOD BLESS US!


Name: bagga - June 24, 2002
E-mail: aaa@al.com
Comments:   Jaswal ji, is this a joke? Regrarding the fact "that maharaja Ranjit Singh rose to power because of cast system". First of the leader of the so called jatt misls was none other than jassa singh alhuwalia, a kalal (liqour distiller) ceratinly not a jatt. The misls were comprimised mainly from jatts, because a majority of the sikhs at the times were jatts. Ranjit singh himself employed anything but jatts to be high generals (Allard, Ventura, gardner white officers from france italy, and america i beleive, were white), his right hand man was the rajput dogra king of j & k dhyan singh (might be gulab singh i forget) . Two main sikh generals at the time when the sikh army fought the british in the anglo sikh war were brahmins. One of the bhraman sikh generals by the name of lal singh is famous for being found hiding in a oven when it came time to fight, Both conspired in treachery for their personal benefit betraying the sikh army.

The current political system is compromised mainly of jatts, it is only 2 3 families that have been in power in recent times (badal , etc.) There is a reason these men started to take upon the last names of there villages, badal, baranla, etc, to get away from their caste. However this macho jatt attitude these days by sikhs is terrible and totally against the religion. One could also argue that this rise of the tribal jatt attitude can be in some parts attributed to the propaganda of the controlling bhramanical government. Ex: RSS passing out tests in punjab which were mandatory in all high schools asking questions like, "what caste did guru gobind singh belong to?". Take entertaiment for instance, look the movie gadar, what do they represent the main characer as a jatt not a sikh. However this is another topic, which has nothing at all to do with this board.

And for the fact that "the benefit is that people from different castes unite with one another and struggle together and win together as a team while kicking the “others” to the curve." is so absurd i'm not even going to say anything about it.


Name: Jaswal - June 24, 2002
E-mail: arjunjaswal@yahoo.com
My URL:
Comments:   Nobody is justifying anything, but I merely attempted to list one small benefit which was that Maharaja Ranjit Singh rose to power because of it. That falls in line with what Kumar said: the caste system has its benefits (along with its faults). I never said it's a good system, but I said it is good to certain people. What people it's good to changes with time depending on other variables.

And, yes, I'm not happy with Dalits getting reserved seats because reservation should be based on need (e.g. poverty), not caste.

And, I didn't break any mottos 'cause I am an American and I have every right to talk about the social system in my own country.


Name: P S kahlon - June 24, 2002
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Location: nashville, tn     USA
Comments:   What a way to justify caste system. Remind me of my college days, when a classmate of mine used to get shocked by someone's argument,he will say; "yooN to hum ne bhi bahut dehke,Jakhal ke station pe bhi dekhe, laikin tum se talle talle" Peace be on this forum


Name: DullaBhatti - June 24, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Jaswal sahib, I must say I am really disappointed at your last two posts. Caste system divides people and then you say it is good because it unites some of them back (for survival). So jatts(mind you sikh jatts..who were only a 10% minority of the Punjab of Ranjit Singh) united and benefited from this caste based unity...what about rest of 90% of Punjabis? what good is a sytem that unites only a fraction of people...like present day...you must be reading about what this unity has done last 5 yrs? Is this the "positive role" and "benefits" you have been supporting in Kumar's post?

Caste system is uplifting the lower castes now through reservation? May I ask who dropped them down there to start with? If their role as shoodars was good for the society then why uplift them now? It is not caste system that created reservations, but the anti-caste system...the united legislation of all the people who said enough is enough. First caste system discrimnates and exploits the dalits...for the good of the society..now it uplifts them..for the good of society. tomorrow it might move them sideways for the good of society. wah kiya logic hai.[BTW I got the impression that you don't seem very happy with dalits getting "all the" seats in medical and engineering. is that correct?]

I don't want to bring Amercian system into this discussion. that is whole diff subject...In other words I will follow your motto(that you broke yourself just before advising me on)and keep that judgement in check:-)


Name: Jaswal - June 24, 2002
E-mail: arjunjaswal@yahoo.com
My URL:
Comments:   The caste system and other systems help in survival of certain factions of society. That is the most important thing in any society. Cooperating, sharing, and brotherhood only goes up to some point, but when the resources start getting scarce, all the humane theories right down the toilet. Whoever has the stick controls everything even today. You have the luxury of sitting in your air-conditioned room and waste time, like me, on this forum, and judge peoples' way of living in a 3rd world country. The point is that the caste system helped in the survival of upper castes in the past and today it is helping the low castes like I originally wrote. The caste system will be around in the pre-industrial societies of South Asia and when these societies are fully developed, they will adopt the class system of the Western world which isn't much better anyway considering top 3% of top people in the U.S. control almost all the wealth. In other words, keep your judgements about other peoples' systems in check.


Name: Jaswal - June 24, 2002
E-mail: arjunjaswal@yahoo.com
My URL:
Comments:   So, you're asking me what WAS the positive role. I explained what the positive role IS in today's society: it's uplifting the people of low castes. Now to talk about what WAS the postive role. The postive influence was to unite certain tribes. I can see people screaming already, "UNITE? You must be out of your mind, it creates divisions!!" I said to unite certain tribes NOT all the people in the nation (if there's such a thing in India). For example, in the early 1800s, all the Jatts were united under Maharaja Ranjit Singh and all the Rajputs in the hills were under Raja Sansar Chand. Yes, the unification was based on caste; all the plains people on one side and all the hilly people on another. They weren't necessarily foes, but just two separate coalitions. So, such unifications helped in deterring foreign forces. It’s another thing these powerful unions took advantage of the ones below them, but that’s a different story. It was the unification of 12 Jatt misles that created the empire of Ranjit Singh and the unification was based on caste. The point is caste did unite people up to some extent. Even today, Jatts control Punjab and Rajputs control Himachal Pardesh. Whenever Akalis are in power, it’s always a Jatt who is sworn as CM. I haven’t looked at the people’s names, but I’m sure that other Sikhs associations such as SGPC are also controlled by Jatts. Other non-Jatt Sikhs only get into high positions under other non-Jatt parties such as Congress. I’m not talking about Jatt discrimination or complaining about something, but rather what I’m saying is that caste tends to unite people as I have listed in some examples. This is how it has been in recent history, but you can apply the same concept to times 2500 years ago when various tribes united based on their decent which usually meant the same caste. This behavior can be seen in many tribes of South American Indians. So, in one sentence what’s the benefit? The benefit is that people from different castes unite with one another and struggle together and win together as a team while kicking the “others” to the curve.


Name: DullaBhatti - June 24, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Jaswal ji, I am refering to the key phrase in the original topic that I objected and you took me to task..."Cast system played a very very positive role in Indian society for many many many centuries. you don't understand the benefits." he said it and you supported by saying he is right. now I want to know what was that positive role and what were the benefits that we don't understand?


Name: Jaswal - June 24, 2002
E-mail: arjunjaswal@yahoo.com
My URL:
Comments:   DB Ji, just to be clear, what exactly are you asking me? Before you asked what benefits the shoodars get? (even though I never said they do) I already answered that within the context of modern Punjabi/Indian society assuming that's what you wanted to know since your question was in present tense. And, now you've changed your question and asked how does the society benefit? What society? the Indian society, Punjabi society? or the local bay area Punjabi society? And what time frame? today or 2500 years ago? You should keep in mind that 2500 years ago, there probably wasn't anything called a Punjabi society. It was a tribal world. So, are you asking me how did those tribes, if any, benefitted from the system? What exactly are you asking? Your question is based on the Western view of world in year 2002. So, may be you're asking where does the Caste System stand today? And, who does it benefit today? Times change, people change, and so have the systems. Therefore, your question could have 1000 different answers. So, ask a specific question...


Name: DullaBhatti - June 24, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Jaswal: Do you know that Punjabis of Malwa region call Majhails as "bhaao" because majhails call or used to call their elder brothers and fathers bhaoo(or paahji lately).(a variation of bhai, bhra etc), bhaoo hor suna ki haal ay...mera bhaoo ajj paani di vaari laun giya ay....bhao toN puchhke dassaNge etc etc. similarily Majhails call Malwais as "ba'yee"...because Malwais address each other as ba'yee.....Bhaiyeas are called so for the same reason...the usage of word bhapa certainly started in the same way as paThohaari(paThwari) sikhs called their elders, bhapa. These were regional nuasances of different dialects. If you look it that way there is nothing racial about it...but you are right it has become stretched to a racial epithet

Kairon was a very blunt man..he also said "jatt te suhaagay te charheya nai maan hunda te main cheif minister aan".:-)


Name: bagga - June 24, 2002
E-mail: aaa@aol.com
Comments:   Jaswal, you have a good point about the "affirmative action" of india, but on the other hand should n't the lower caste be helped out of their current miserable situation?

"On another note, are you suggesting that agriculture was forced on Jatts by the caste system? ". The history of the jatts is a very debatable topic. Most historians (Cunningham, Todd, Dhillon, Dhayia) have agreed that Jatts are of Syctian stock. They invaded india during the 6th century from central asia. These tribes assimilated into the bhraminical society of india and were placed into 2 castes: khasatria (modern day rajputs) and shudra s (modern day jatts.) [Another theory also says jatts were the original syctians to invade india and were giving bhramans so many problems adapting to "caste" society, that more of the same tribes from central asia were recruited by the bhramans to help fight off these jatts, which in turn were given the status of rajputs]
So you could in fact say that since the shudras way of life at the time was agriculture, that agriculture was forced upon Jatts =).


Name: Jaswal - June 24, 2002
E-mail: arjunjaswal@yahoo.com
My URL:
Comments:   Why is that everybody is ready to jump on Hindus, Kumar in this case, all the time. People are so eager to denounce the Brahminwad because they supposedly ruined our great culture. Even Sikhs of Brahminic origins get no respect. Our CM Kairon referred to them contemptuously as Bhapas in public speeches, but I'm sure if he was questioned, he'd say, "O it's not us Sikhs, but it's the Hindus. They invented the system." That's bunch of crap. It's not hinduism, but it's people like you and me. It's shameful when people, especially the "englightened" ones like Manzur Ejaz, attack Hinduism.


Name: DullaBhatti - June 24, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Jaswal, janab that was a nice spin on benefits of being a shoodar. I am still not sure how it was a positive contribution to society. What you are complaining is only 20 years old reservation system....think about if it continues for 2500 years(and you having no voting powers to change it).

No jatts were not forced to farming...in fact they chose to do so initially...but caste hierarchy in general is a trap where you fall as soon as you are born and getting out of that is not in your control most of the times.


Name: Jaswal - June 24, 2002
E-mail: arjunjaswal@yahoo.com
My URL:
Comments:   Why is that everybody is ready to jump on Hindus, Kumar in this case, all the time. People are so eager to denounce the Brahminwad because they supposedly ruined our great culture. Even Sikhs of Brahminic origins get no respect. Our CM Kairon referred to them contemptuously as Bhapas in public speeches, but I'm sure if he was questioned, he'd say,


Name: bagga - June 24, 2002
E-mail: aaa@aol.com
Comments:   "If mentioning of caste system hurts someone's religious feelings then I certainly apologize for that."

This is insane. There is no way to justify that one man is born better than another. If it hurts someones feelings than so be it.


Name: Jaswal - June 24, 2002
E-mail: arjunjaswal@yahoo.com
My URL:
Comments:   I never said the caste system benefits the shoodars, did I? Since you did put words in my mouth, let's talk about it. It does benefit the shoodars and low castes TODAY. I'm sure you're aware of assembly seats being reserved for the shoodars. As a matter of a fact, even my pind's sarpanchi goes to chamars. On a bigger scale, the very few Punjab assembly(or whatever you call it) seats in my area also are reserved. Hell we can't even select our own representatives in our own state just because we supposedly belong to some upper caste. And, I'm sure that you're aware of college students killing themselves a decade back because most of the seats in medical/engineering schools are also reserved for the so called shoodars. I certainly remember because I was in college at that time with no future to look forward too. Tell me again who's getting a better deal out of the caste system? Seems to me like the shoodars are doing pretty dandy. So, these are some of the benefits being provided today by the caste system to the shoodars in our Punjab. Being SC/BC today gives you a lot of benefits and I even read a story about some Sikh caste protesting because they weren't being considered shoodar by the gov't. Sounds pretty interesting, doesn't it? People want to be shoodars today all because of the labels that the Caste system gave them. And, in other states such as UP, I know of instances and would be more than happy to provide references when certain tribes honored the the ministers because their tribes were officially listed as backward or scheduled. If this benefit list isn't big enough, let me know 'cause I can surely dig many more

On another note, are you suggesting that agriculture was forced on Jatts by the caste system? I'm pretty sure that farming existing prior to the invention of a caste system. Farming is tough in general and no system has anything to do with it.


Name: DullaBhatti - June 24, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Saleem, read the link I posted below. I didn't comment on Manzur's post(the link I posted contradicts his theory that dalits escaped caste based suffering by converting) and I only objected Kumar's assertion of caste system's Positive contributions to the society. I hope someone compiles that comprehensive list. What you have posted below was inspite of caste system not due to caste system. If mentioning of caste system hurts someone's religious feelings then I certainly apologize for that.


Name: DullaBhatti - June 24, 2002
E-mail: dulalbhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Yesterday afternoon I was sitting in the Gurdwara, my folded hands in my lap, my head slightly bowed down forward..not in some kind of enjoyment but trying to escape the half baked political sermon of secretary sahib..and waiting anxiously when Ragis on the harmonium and tabla will start singing.

As I lifted my head up and looked ahead, she was standing next to me...trying to find a place to sit...wearing a dress upto her knees, head covered with a little rumaal, her round radiating face, beautiful big eyes..slightly brownish and a priceless smile on her face, her personality beaming with confidence...she sat next to me....right near my left knee..a little ahead of me. She placed the napkin in her lap and made a goal laddoo out of parshaad with her beautiful hands and took the first bite while looking at me and smiling. I was thinking about saying hi to her...just break the ice and start a conversation...but as happens with me at most of such occasions I was in a fix...what to say..what to ask?...I was still thinking that she turned towards me and with big smile on her face said "hi, yesterday was my brithday....I am now 5". I was glad she started talking..I congratulated on her brithday and asked her whether she goes to school. She replied back in a very excited voice " yes..I have finished my kindergarden...and I am going to first grade soon...you know I am already sudying the first grade at home..so that when I go to school I will already know all that they have to teach"...she giggled a little and said " that way I can be first...hey hey hey"....her innocence, confidence and sweetness was brimming out and was all over me. I was feeling like I have met God or something. Such a lovely soul...I asked her name...Jaspreet....she did not lose the turn and asked me right away in the same breath..and what is your name?...Jagjit...she giggles, tilts her head slightly, rolls her eyes.....veeeeeeeerrrryyy similar. She was amused at the rhyming of our names. I asked what does she want to be when she go to school....Doctor!...hmmm why?.....well...I like to help people..I help my grand mother and my mother all the time...you know doctors help people all the time..thats what they do..so I want to be doctor.

We talked few other things and I was amazed at her confidence and the way she can hold the conversation like adults and still be little innocent angel at the same time. Few people sitting next to us were not that appreciative of noise of our conversation...and in the meantime her father came down the aisle and singaled her with his head to get up and follow him...she stood on her knees to get up and said..ok nice meeting you. and with that she left with her father..who was probably going straight to the langar hall.(now what a great idea that was...otherwise half of us would be eating fatty bergers at Macdonalds on Sunday afternoons)...and with that she left me with my thoughts..what a soul full of life and bundle of joy! as I got up myself to leave few minutes later, a prayer came to mind spontaneously...Waheguru bless you my sweetheart!


Name: Saleem Asghar - June 24, 2002
E-mail: saleem_asghar25@hotmail.com
Comments:   Javed Zaki and Dullah Bhatti: Hold your horses. Let us not jump on Kumar for defending his own religion and history. If I have read his posting correctly, he has objected to two things (1) this is not a forum to discuss and criticize each other’s religion (2) Hindus have reasons to defend the role caste system has played in the development of Indian society 1000+ years ago.

He is not defending caste system in today’s world. He has only pointed out that in the past it has played a positive role. There were many reason’s why Muslim’s were able to establish their Sultanat in India. Putting all the blame on the “degeneration of Indian society by caste system” at the time of Ghauri’s attack and disregarding all other reasons smells like a religious bias. It amounts to sayings that Ghauris had a superior religion that was better then the Hindu religion that has degeneration of society. It was a win of superior religion on the inferior one.

Before the famous attacks of Mahmud Ghaznavi, that preceded Ghauri, there were two quite long standing and highly successful Hindu dynasties (based on caste system) that very ably ruled Northern India, Mauriyas and Guptas. After the decline of Guptas, Northern India was split among numerous small states. That was the main reason that Ghazni was able to loot India so freely in the 9th century. After his devastating attacks on Northern India, it was simply a walk over by Ghauri.

If Kumar objects to this highlighting of the degeneration effect of cast system as the main cause of Ghuari’s success, he is right on the mark. It is easier for a Sikh or Muslim to totally, completely trash cast system and deny any positive role it has played in the long gone times in Indian history. They can take the high moral ground. But once someone will start pointing out what they believe is wrong in other’s religion, it will become an unending debate. So may be the best way will be that we should at least be sensitive to each other’s religious feelings instead of trying to impress others with our scholarly credentials so blindly and insensitively on this non/religious non/political forum. I am disappointed that one particular learned participant continues his practice of putting his intellectual spin on everything without any regard to our religious feelings. Kumar a correctly asked for an apology and he deserves one.


Name: DullaBhatti - June 24, 2002
E-mail: dulalbhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Manzur sahib has mentioned in his post about shooders converting to escape the suffering. Here is an eye opening interview of a dalit Muslim leader on the issue. http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20020620&fname=yogi&sid=1


Name: DullaBhatti - June 24, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Jaswal ji, As Bagga said a sandhu village would have remained regardless of caste system, my religion, my country etc. I am sure you have heard villages and towns else where in the world named Johnsonville, Williams town, Bakersfield, Stockton etc etc? My jatt ancestors were shooders according to the caste system. If they had a low self esteem they would have been just like other shooders even now and cleaning up for upper castes. But when Mannu's system put shooder label on them they showed him the the middle finger...they did not let that label stick to them although sadly they did call and treat fellow shooders as shooders. That I will agree with you(I think thats what you mean not 100% but some). They did not live with victim mentality but stood up for themselves. Jaswal sahib being jatt was not all that great...I am the first in my ancestory who gave up the jatt profession and probably the first to live a comfortable life:-).

Now let us go back to the original question and please explain to us point by point all the "positive contributions" of caste system to the society. Please support your answers with stats and testimonials of shooders. Such a great system should not stay undiscovered, it should be implemented world wide.:-)


Name: bagga - June 24, 2002
E-mail: aaa@aol.com
Comments:   By the way in response to jaswals comment to DB "be able to talk about the Sandhu Jatt pind of yours". Sandhu jatt has nothing at all to do with caste. Sandhu's are part of a tribe of jatts, which would have been around regardless of the existence of the caste system. The only thing missing without the caste system is where they would rank in accordance to other tribes.
By the way the rajput tribe's of north india share the same Sycthian ancestory as the jatts.


Name: bagga - June 24, 2002
E-mail: aaa@aol.com
Comments:   By the way in response to jaswals comment to DB "be able to talk about the Sandhu Jatt pind of yours". Sandhu jatt has nothing at all to do with caste. Sandhu's are part of a tribe of jatts, which would have been around regardless of the existence of the caste system. The only thing missing without the caste system is where they would rank in accordance to other tribes.
By the way the rajput tribe's of north india share the same Sycthian ancestory as the jatts.


Name: bagga - June 24, 2002
E-mail: aaa@aol.com
Comments:   "Caste system played a very very positive role in Indian society for many many many centuries"
I really do not know what role the caste system has played outside of north india, but please explain, what positive role did it play in punjab?? My personal opinion is that it is due to these bhramanical ideologies that punjab is so religously divided today.
On a seperate note, i do not think that discussion involving religion should be banned from this forum. It is justifiable that any attakcs or discussion on religous philosphies can be banned, but how can your have a punjabi, punjabyat site and ban constructive discussion on the role of religion in the history and culture of punjab.


Name: Jaswal - June 24, 2002
E-mail: arjunjaswal@yahoo.com
My URL:
Comments:   Just for the record, Kumar NEVER called "exploitation of individuals" beneficial, but he spoke of some other benefits. The caste system may have its faults, but Kumar didn't say anythingw rong. I believe the man deserves an apology :)


Name: Jaswal - June 24, 2002
E-mail: arjunjaswal@yahoo.com
My URL:
Comments:   DB paji, I agree with everything said. mein eh thoro kiha si Jatt kithe ah caste system di hierarchy vich or ke tusi doojiya castes nu put down karde ho, but instead I just pointed out ke tusi vi believe karde ho ehde vich. Obviously, not 100% of it, but the good parts of it. One of these benefits being that it gives you the identity and pride you just spoke of. So, I think you're agreeing (implicitly) with Kumar that the system has benefits because without it you wouldn't be able to talk about the Sandhu Jatt pind of yours. Then why are you condemning him? He didn't say lets shoot down all the low castes or squeen every penny out of them; he only spoke of the benefits which you yourself seem to be enjoying. So, how is he different from you?


Name: DullaBhatti - June 24, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahho.com
Comments:   We can't stop people from taking pride or defining their identities the way they perceive it but we can stop the exploitation and discrimination institutionlaized by caste system instead of calling that exploitation "postive" or beneficial to society.


Name: DullaBhatti - June 24, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahho.com
Comments:   Jaswal: Jallan has written himself as Jatt, I have not added that myself.(I am sure you know about Dhanna bhagat in GGS who is commonly refered as Dhanna Jatt). Jallan has been mostly refered as Jallan Jatt in Punjabi literature by historians and researchers. Also, please note that jatts are there down with the shoodars in the caste system. calling oneself jatt was not considered pride 500 yrs ago..it was very similar to Ravidas calling himself chamar...calling oneseld jatt or chamar in pity and humility. The other comment about jatt singers was in a lighter tone(addressing to Bali)...I am glad that they are singing and doing other things and breaking streotypes. Still, I believe nothing wrong in taking pride in one's identiy whatever it may be...what is wrong is institutionalized discrimination and exploitation of individuals and groups based on this pride. and that I am dead against my friend.


Name: Javed Zaki - June 23, 2002
E-mail: zakimoha@msu.edu
Comments:   Dulla Bhatti Ji! Sachche padshah Ji horaaN neiN te iss gal (Zaat-paat de ouNch neech nooN te ohde tooN paida hon waale gher-insaani attitudes te actions) da panj sadiyaaN pehle bharwaaN andazza kar liya si. Ah baNda aqal da annha iss gal nooN ajje tikar caste-system nooN sinaiy laaee beTha e. Assi tussi eho jaie baNdiyaan lei bas doaa ee kar sakde aaN.


Name: Jaswal - June 23, 2002
E-mail: arjunjaswal@yahoo.com
My URL:
Comments:   DullahBhatti: Here's a quote from you from couple of days ago:

but I got the chance to watch on and off...so many new names..particularly jatts...lagda saare maraasi bann jaan ge

And another one:

similarly, there was a Jatt bhagat Baba Jallan ji

Look at these two quotes and then tell me "eithe banda ki karloo ga." I could be wrong, but it seems like your emphasizing your Jattism. I agree with you though, kiddan de lok bethe ah duniya vich, ik paase kush kehnde ah and fer when they turn around, kush hor kehnde ah...

So, please don't say anything to Kumar because he's right. The mere fact that the system has survived for over 2000 years tells you that it serves its peoples' needs just fine. Manzur: There was no great country known as India before 1947. Even in 1947, there were 500+ independent princely states in India. So, yeah, the country was divided, but not by the caste system, but because of so many different kingdoms. What Professor Habib of Ali Gharh University needs to look at it is that the Afgans defeated a tribe or two, not an entire nation (there was no such thing!!) And, on top of everything else, this a discussion forum; try discussing (conversating with people) something instead of posting pages and pages of theories copied from books.


Name: DullaBhatti - June 23, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   "Cast system played a very very positive role in Indian society for many many many centuries. you don't understand the benefits. "

dasso hunn aithey banda ki karlooga? eho jihay danishvar vi duniya te baithey ne.ki banu duniya da sacha paadshah waheguru jaane.


Name: Shikra - June 23, 2002
E-mail: prayet@hotmail.com
Comments:   Zahra dear: Why are you always trying to impress us with badly written urdu on a punjabi forum, I enjoy reading everyones input on this forum but when it comes to you, you are obviously trying to belittle others through your input. You have criticised me and others many times with hidden innuendos and insults but you yourself get all angry when someone else criticises you.


Name: a. n. kumar - June 23, 2002
E-mail: ankumar1982@hotmail.com
Comments:   What crap is this? you say no discussions on religion and this person claims during Guri's time Hindu cast system had degenrated society of India. Hindus were very weak by the cast system. Muslims defeated them with small army. Is this what you mean by non-religious? If Hindu cast system is a good subject for trashing here then why not begin a discussion on Muslim's practice of 4 mariages, women status, slavery, terrorism. jihad and other topics that degenerated muslim societies. no shortage of authors that i can quote. First I wait for apology. Cast system played a very very positive role in Indian society for many many many centuries. you don't understand the benefits. Come on, you want to debate the merits/demerits of cast system vs. the things i mentioned on muslims. i am ready for that.


Name: Zahra - June 23, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   understable - should read understandable!


Name: Zahra - June 23, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Bali Dear: Tunqeed Kuran Toa Pehlae' Bundae Noon Context Tae Nazar Rakhnee Chaee'Dee Aae' and should not take the thought Hurf'Ba'Hurf(Word by Word). Now, also Bundae Noon Bila' Vajeh Dee Nuktaa'Cheeni ToaN IjtaNaa'b Burat'na' Chaee'Daa Aae. That's what the Lama said! :)
By the way, I have a hard time understanding your verbiage but I can make some sense reading the contents. One person whose verbiage is beautiful and easily understable is no one except for MTM.
:)


Name: Zahra - June 23, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   I think...
a) The messages were appealing that's why they carried a lot of meaning.
b) There were points that all the three groups could relate to.
c) The teachings were not in the air and were down to earth.
d)They also never went very far in their metaphors.
Last but not the least, all the three groups(from religious perspective)were linked with each other at some point and time. Long long time ago, a lot of conversions took place. Many of us have family trees showing hindu ancestry if you go back 8-9 generations. I hate to go on and on, but there was respect for different practices that's why they could sit in one room and istafadaa'uthao'fy from the teachings of their teacher, regardless of their faiths. That's not it, but for now that's it :)


Name: Manzur Ejaz - June 23, 2002
E-mail: manzurejaz@hotmail.com
Comments:   A simple question: Why Hindus,Sikhs and people of other religions have equal reverence for these thinkers? Why their message cuts accross religious boundries?


Name: Manzur Ejaz - June 23, 2002
E-mail: manzurejaz@yahoo.com
Comments:   Re: Conversions etc
Of course, any religion in a ruling position, does unleash dynamics of conversions. Some Sufi sects might have been instrumental in such campaigns but mass conversions have other dimensions also. There is a lot of evidence around that when Ghauri invaded India, despite system disturbances, cast system was well and alive in India and Punjab. As a matter of fact it was quite operative till late despite Muslim/Sikh reformist movements. Professor Habib of Ali Gharh University has explored the fact as to why a small Afghan army was able to conquer a great country. He postulates that social system in India was so degenerated because of the cast system that people did not want to fight and defend. Of course, horse as war weapon also played a role, but mostly the social organization was not fit to fight. Acceptance of a new ideology which preaches equality and human love also played some role, other political factors notwithstanding. Early conversions to Baba Nanak’s preaching were more due to his message than any political power. Therefore, we can hypothesize that new ideological formations–specifically those that synthesized their message incorporating the indigenous Indian liberation movements—took shape and created new languages (including Punjabi), arts and cultures.
I know that some historians have hypothesized that sufi sects were advanced intelligence teams. In Pakistan, Sibt-ul-Hasan Zaigham has been a great proponent of this thesis. Nonetheless, one does not find much evidence to prove this. Of course the rulers must have infiltrated the sufi ranks and used it but to say that the entire movement was concocted and designed to conquer, is stretching the argument too far. However, if one accepts this thesis, as presented by Sameer here, one can make four or five stages as to how sufi thought evolved. But, again one has to accept that sufi sects were just designed instruments of rulers.
If one does not accept this thesis fully or partially, then one has to look at the evolution of sufi thought from within and in the context of other competing ideologies. One can also hypothesize that as Muslim theocracy became stronger and suffocating sufi opposition became more open. The difference between Shah Hussain and Bulleh Shah-Waris Shah can be explained in these terms also: by 18th century Muslim theocracy had gained so much power that Bulleh Shah and Waris Shah had to be much more direct and sharp against them. Shah Hussain does not accept Mullah-Qazi advice (Mullah qazi mattin daindy, kharey sianey rah desinde) but Waris Shah denounces then outright (Waris Shah khuda dey khanian noon eh mullah bhi chamrey hain balian).


Name: Moizullah Tariq Malik - June 22, 2002
E-mail: moizmalik@hotmail.com
Comments:   for Apna Friends:

JindRe De Par Samajh Na Aaee

Waqt Handaya Umar Handaaee
ThaaN ThaaN Apni Jind Rulaaee
Hosh GaNwaya Aqal GaNwaaee
JindRe De Par Samajh Na Aaee

Kam Aawan Na Kujh TadberaaN
KhaidaaN KhaiddiaaN TaqderaaN
Pal Pal Haasay Pal Pal PeeRaaN
Kee Sufnay Kee Hunn Ta’beraaN

SouchaaN Day Wich Souch GaNwaaee
JindRe De Par Samajh Na Aaee

Din Dhalda Din ChaRhda Jaway
Ek Rut Aaway Ek Rut Jaway
Aay Wailay De Chaki Guhm Guhm
Har Zee Roh NouN Mar Mukaway

Kat Kat Chillay Jot Jagaaee
JindRe De Par Samajh Na Aaee


Name: Saleem Asghar - June 22, 2002
E-mail: saleem_asghar25@hotmail.com
Comments:   Dullah Bhatti Jee: I agree with so much of what you have said that I see no need to repeat it again. Here is a suggestion for the purpose of discussion on this board. We should stay away from controversy about our revered Sufi’s. I fully agree that in itself, nothing is wrong if someone is a die hard communist or a die hard mullah or pandat or whatever. I never said at any time that there is any thing wrong in someone being a Marxist or ex-Marxist. All I said was that a certain point of view is a Marxist point of view that was first proposed by a group of Marxists from Lahore. Also that there is nothing new in it. It is the same thing that Prof. Cyprian, Major Ishaque, C.R. Aslam , Dr. Azizul Haq and other were saying 40 years ago. I am a practicing Muslim. Any one on this board has every right to say that what I am saying is exactly what people with Muslim religious believes generally say or have already said and there is nothing new in it. Nothing wrong in that either. We can all agree to disagree in a civil manner. I absolutely didn’t mean to belittle any one or any one’s point of view by properly, accurately calling it a Marxist point of view just like it will not be an insult if someone calls my point view as an Islamic point of view. No need to get so touchy on this point. Labeling a point of view is sometimes necessary to avoid a lot of explaining and is commonly done in all debates and discussions. I suggest that debate about Sufi’s religious believes is perhaps against the declared policy of this board. We should neither question and intellectualize each other’s religious believes nor of our Sufi’s on this board I did not start the debate about the religious believes of Punjabi Sufi’s. Certain things were said, in the disguise of intellectualism, about the religious believes and mission of Punjabi Sufi’s that needed to be clarified. Let us instead highlight their message of love and peace for all human beings. We can fulfill our desire, if there is any, to once in a while dazzle others with our intellect and scholarship by discussing other subjects. There are many Punjabi issues that need discussion other than re-inventing the Sufi message.


Name: suman - June 22, 2002
E-mail: skashy@yahoo.com
Comments:   It is quite irrelevant to try and figure out what were the beliefs/goals/message in an artists mind when he/she created a work of art. A poem is a poem (and a painting is a painting etc.) and has to be judged on its own merit. Some of the criteria used are

1. was the medium (words, color,notes)used in a masterful manner?

2. Are we touched or moved by the contents - ie does it reach us emotionally.

3. Does it tell us something that is universally true? ie. something that is morally and intellectually satisfying.

Try to see any great artist, of any medium, using these criteria and you will observe its validity. By the way, I am not maroing my opinion, these are stated criteria in judging art. If the Punjabi sufi poets have survived the centuries and are still read, it is not because they may have had certain beliefs, but because they created works of art that state, in beautiful words, universal truths.


Name: DullaBhatti - June 22, 2002
E-mail: dullabhatti47@yahoo.com
Comments:   Why would one believe all Punjabis think the same way? do all Germans think alike? Do all Gujratis, sindhis, Pathans etc etc think alike and have same views on everything? Then why should that streotype be put on Punjabis? Saleem's perspective on things is interesting and different than many others. So is Sameer's so is Manzur's. I have been reading Saleem's posts and agree with lot of his views on Punjabi language and history. but I have to say this that by pointing out Manzur's any past asssociations with any ideology in every second sentense he is belittling his own otherwise sound arguments. So Manzur ejaz might have been a Marxist sometime(my impression from this discussiion below...I have no other perosnal info on him to be 100% sure..I think thats what Saleem is trying to imply by left right symbolism) in his life which might still influence his interpretations of things. What is wrong with it? There have been millions of those in Punjab in the last 70 years. When I entered my adult life the communist movement was already finished in Punjab and had very little contact with it so you can't accuse me of defending commies:-) but one thing I know from reading the Punjabi literature of past 70 years is their contribution to the Punjabi language, literature, journalism, arts and human right issues is un-matched by any other group of/or ideology. and I am not talking about party pamphlets. I know many bazurg people back home who were baptised sikhs but considered themselves as communist revolutionaries. They had a dream for their people equal of each other in every aspect. religion and God was only a small part of it for them. They did not go on killing people indiscriminately to achieve that dream..the total number of people killed in Naxalite movement of Punjab was only in hundreds(same can't eb said about toerh ideologies that sprung up in Punjab in last 70 yrs) and majority of them was naxalites killed by Govt. I don't know about the movement in Pakistan but the situation was not any different..might have been worst from what I have read about hashar of Balochis...ok I am digressing but all I am saying that since we agree now(with Zahra's blessings:) that not all Punjabis think alike then what is big deal if one was a communist hopeful or sympathizer in the past. If you don't like the interpretation then challenge it and argue but by bringing in certain ppl did this in Lahore and certain ppl don't like that on this board in every post is getting boring. Another thing, Manzur have not aprticipated in the discussions here that often. If you look back on the archives only few times that he jumped in. So accusing that he is preaching certain ideology here does not seem fair. Hope you guys take my comments in constructively. and please keep participating...many village idiots like me do learn a lot from this board. adios.


Name: Bali K Deol - June 22, 2002
E-mail: swaraj@shaw.ca
Comments:   Enaa ziada HaumE te HankaaR ik bande vich kiveN aa janda e. Ik hor gal apni sift jaaN tareef karni bari buri gal a (the height of bad taste). Just a question! :-))

Zahra ji dhaan bhaag saade ke roj towade vargi azeem hasti de darshan hunde ne. Inj hee hundi rahi te saare paap dhote jaanE a. Bahut meharbani towadi! :-))

Saleem ji, I respect your opinions and its extremely interesting to get different viewpoints and obviously all Punjabi's do not think alike, just a humble suggestion, perhaps not a good idea to get so aggressive. Jine pyaar naal gal kariye, ohnee jiada mauRe sunee jaandi e, theek e na? JIven kehnde hunde ne, gusse naal jinna marzi laraa lao, pyaar naal jinaa marzi manaa lao! :-)) I was reading past posts, reading March 28th, and your love for Punjabiat is so obvious so I for one hope you stick around. Whearas there are certain people, whom you also seemed to have recognized for what they are, at least back in March, that I wish would just use their ears a little more than their voices.


Name: Zahra - June 22, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Saleem: I am glad you said what you said. I had a strong feeling something would have happened. No doubt, I can stand a very few beings on this board as they lack the nerve and backbone to tolerate others' perspectives. In short, I am simply disgusted. That's why I asked you to stick around. If I were you, I will still stick around and carry the same mantra that you believe in. You provide more power to my previous rationale that all Punjabis do not think alike. Yes, they are bound together by land,water, associations and sense of beloging, but mettle is not the same. It never will be.
With that said, please reply to my genuine question. I did not understand your reference to lefts, rights and other mushkil mushkil terminologies. I have a tendency to ask a lot of questions. Just recently, my course instructor told me that I can tell you are a very inquisitive person and will not stay silent if you do not understand something. "I must mention that you do a service to the class by raising those points that others may not have thought" he said.
Thanks.


Name: Saleem Asghar - June 22, 2002
E-mail: saleem_asghar25@yahoo.com
Comments:   Zahara Jee: You are so right. I was warned not once, but twice through e-mails. These warning, I believe were meant to stop me from challenging a particular ideology and specially a particular person. That is the reason I didn't answer your last question because I thought it will ruffle more feathers. At the same time, I noticed that a gentleman posted the same, exactly same, posting with personal attacks on me twice under two different names and these posting that are obviously under fake names remained on the board. I admit that I was a bit aggressive at the beginning but clearly at least one of the participant of this baord is under some kind of protection plan and nobody is allowed to question his thoughts and motives. I say it again, loud and clear, that if Punjabi Sufi's were real Sufi's, then they must be, and in fact were, more concerned with their quest for God and ultimate truth than bringing any social revolution or inventing consensus-based religion. Our primary understanding of Sufi's must begin with a good understaing of sufism. Trying to paint a picture of Punjabi Sufi's as if their spiritual message has no importance and we should interpret their poetry in the light of certain (and failed) materialistic ideology is all that I had questioned. Since the background of how and where this self-serving interpretation of Punjabi sufi poetry originated and what is the role and background of a learned particpant on this board in propogating it were pertinent questions, I raised them. Opposing someone's views doesn't reflect hate for that individual and no one should get upset. This egotistic reaction is beyond my understanding.


Name: Zahra - June 21, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Moderators:
Mujhae Shuk Hae Keh you guys have banned or warned Saleem. If that's true then I have to raise a flag here: Unfair, Unfair and Unfair!!! Whoever raises a point that is against the puncha'yut's mindset they are discouraged to participate and share their perspectives. What the hell is this? What are we promoting here? Restricted thought proces that is appealing to ginna' chunna's as it complies with their "set" ideology? Some of those set ideologies are so damn annoying that I have stopped even giving a second look to them. In short, if you really did any of the above, then that's very bad and sad. If you did not, then please disregard my genuine and constructive concerns.


Name: Zahra - June 21, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Uncle Kahlon: I told you that there is some issue with the email and I never got any of your emails. It's strange but it's true. Apna Group has some hidden device installed somewhere that does not let the interactors interact freely. As a result, the email gets multiple viruses than messages :) Just kidding. I never got any of your notes. Please make sure you send me emails on my "msn" address. Thanks.


Name: Prem Singh Kahlon - June 21, 2002
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Location: nashville , tn     USA
Comments:   BIBI ZAHRA:Please, I meant it when I said that I was very proud that you addressed me as uncle. I am very glad to have you as my niece. Remember in my private mail to you I wrote that I was looking for my cousin (CH. Abdulla Khan Kahlon's daughter) who was supposed to be in USA . I was very proud and genuinely pleased when you called me Uncle. Considering our age differences you are probably much younger than my nephews and neices. You have forgotten probably that in my letters to you I ended up with Uncle Prem . With lots of love, Uncle Prem


Name: Prem Singh Kahlon - June 21, 2002
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Location: Nashvliie, Tn     USA
Comments:   Bagga Ji: My grand father left Sialkot and settled in Lyall Pur and I don't know exact year but my father was born in Lyall Pur(Sihowal Nawade Chak# 417 Jb) in 1900.In Sialkot the pind was Sihowal.The Nawade Pind belonged to Bajwas in Sialkot. Hence in Lyall Pur our Pind had both Kahlons and Bajwas(both Sikhs and Muslims). My mother was Bajwa and my wife is Bhatti, these names along with Cheemas, Dhillons ,Randhawas, Sandhus and list goes on all are central Punjab's names on both sides of the border. Most of the Kahlons are on both sides of Ravi, In Sialkot and Girdas Pur.Thanks for the asking. Rabb Rakha


Name: Zahra - June 21, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Dear All: I need some assistance with very unique female names in our history. These names can also be part of our culture or poetry. In short, it should be very authentic. We have a baby due in my family and I am assigned with the task to suggest a sweet name. Being the aunt-to-be, I am stuck on "Sohni." My brother refused to look into my suggestion so I have to be a little more creative. Any one? Any thoughts? Any suggestions? I also suggested Saba Raftar, Sur Sur Ayyara from Dastanae' Ameer Hamza and got a total ignore. Then I went to Hazrat Suleman's story and tried to come up with the character in that story, Queen Bilqees(if I am not wrong). No heed was paid. Then, I looked into "The conference of the birds" by Farid-ud-din-Attar. And, am still looking. Interestingly, the baby's parents have very well thought out names. I want them to keep that tradition alive as I believe in the sanctity of names and their meanings. ?


Name: Zahra - June 21, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Well, we have very sensitive beings on board :) Dear P.S.Kahlon: Good to hear from you. I am glad to see that you are around and doing well. The reason I ended up addressing you as Dear Uncle was very simple, my childhood friend is a Kahlon as well. I think they are originally from District Chakwal and it is fed in my mind. I will address all her family as aunts and uncles. If you took an offense to it, I apologize. It was meant in a very polite and sweet way :)

Safir Rammah: Ghalib was not the issue in my post. The context in which I used Gha'ib was the point that you missed on. Hope it's clearer now. When I moved to NJ from MI, I lived in Morristown for a couple of years. It's a very cute town but for young ones it's too dull and slow. Suburbs are great when you work in the city and then you can come back to your seclusion and just relax. Hope you are enjoying your trip. Make sure you drive carefully a the cops aren't very friendly in this neighborhood.


Name: Safir Rammah - June 21, 2002
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
Comments:   Bagga Ji: I am in Baskin Ridge, right next to Morristown.

http://www.attlearningcenter.com/


Name: bagga - June 21, 2002
E-mail: aaa@aol.com
Comments:   Khalon ji, tusi kedhe pind de ho? sialkot area? Were from burra dalla, its mostly kahlons. By the way NJ is not that bad, you guys are killing it =), the weather has been decent last couple of days. Safir ji, where are you staying Morristown? There should be too much traffic that way.


Name: bagga - June 21, 2002
E-mail: aaa@aol.com
Comments:   Khalon ji, tusi kedhe pind de ho? sialkot area?


Name: Prem Singh Kahlon - June 21, 2002
E-mail: pkahlon@tnstate.edu
Location: nashville, TN     USA
Comments:   Just a piece of information for those friends who may not know that in 1998 the Punjab Govt. established a new university,to honor "The Great Jagat Guru" Baba Farid at Farid Kot ( formerly A Sikh State, then Tehsil and now a District). The name of the University is Baba Farid University Of Health Sciences.All the colleges and other educational institutions in the state of Punjab imparting education in Health Sciences previously affiliated to other Universities shall be affiliated to this Univesity from July 1, 1999. Christy Campbell's book " The Maharaja's Box" had praised Maharaja Ranjit Singh for building a nice monument for Baba Farid. But this gesture of the Punjabi's tops probably that monument. Because the Health ( Both mental and Physical) getting assosiated with this great name is a far more befitting to Baba Ji. About 25 colleges ( Medical, Dental, Ayurvedic, Nursing and Physiology) have been affiliated to this University. I was talking to some one yesterday who explained to me the emblem (Baba ji, Picture on the diploma/stationary and his statue on the enterance is so beautiful. Until recently I was ignorant of this unversity even though I go to India every year or so. I thought there may be some others who may not know this just like I did not A gentleman who was talking to me yesterday asked me to enqure from our friends from APNA Foum if they can find out that the book that he used for his H/S Punjabi Text is available in some Library in Pakistan (Lahore particularly). The name of the book was "Punjabi Course". It was printed both in Shahmukhi and Gurmukhi. ZAHRA BIBI: I am well and alive and I am a regular visitor to this forum. I was proud to be addressed by you "As Dear Uncle" last year in your postings in respose to my postings. I read all postings on this forum regularly. All of you have enlighten me in so many ways. Rabb Rakha


Name: Safir Rammah - June 21, 2002
E-mail: rammah@apnaorg.com
Comments:   Zahra: Thanks. I will send you an e-mail later. Now, on your previous/previous post, the couplet was of Ghalib. That is what triggered my remark. It is from the same ghazal that has a great example of Ghalib's most charmimg poetry that he wrote from the heart instead of relying on his wisdom and unique perspective on everything.

waa-e-deewaangee-e-shauq, ke har dam mujhko
aap jaana udhar aur aap hee hairaaN hona

The only saving grace for my trips to NJ is always that I stay at AT&T Learning Center, a one-of-a-kind unique hotel that is part of our HQ. Dedicated to the creature comforts of top brass and as a showcase to dazzle important customers, It is a class act in itself. Once in a while, like this time, I get lucky to get one of their choicest suites. It has a remote controlled CD player in the sitting room. I brought a number of Punjabi music CDs with me that provide some compensation for the waether and traffic.


Name: Zahra - June 20, 2002
E-mail: ZJamshed@msn.com
Comments:   Safir Rammah: I am amused to read the ending sentence of your post. Let me think and I will get back to you on that! Also, I hope you took my previous suggestion in the same stride. Have a nice trip in NJ(the weather is pathetic and there is too much traffic nowadays). Still if you are around, let's see if we can meet up for lunch or dinner on the weekend, provided you have time. Please use my email address and I will appreciate if you do not send me any email viruses :) Take Care. PS: The last couplet that I have mentioned never implied Ghalib in anyway or shape, it said Gha'ib and not Gha'lib. Just a clarification :)






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